← All Of It with Alison Stewart
All Of It with Alison Stewart
Michael Fassbender heads up 'The Agency'
00:23:42
Michael Fassbender plays a CIA operative dealing with the effects of being undercover for 6 years in the new series, "The Agency."
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- [00:04]
Kai Wright
Listener supported WNYC Studios.
- [00:18]
Alison Stewart
This is all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. In the new series the Agency, Michael Fassbender plays an undercover CIA agent named Martian. Of course, that's not his real name and most of what he tells people about his life isn't real either. That's the crux of what's happening in this thriller. There are lots of people in his orbit, but whether they're not, they say who they are is kind of unclear. Like his lover when he was undercover in Africa, a professor who, surprised, just happens to be in London at the same time he is. Is she also a spy? Are his bosses really looking out for his best interests? And does his handler know that he has been lying to her? What we do know is that Martian, AKA Paul Lewis, was abruptly pulled from his post in Africa after six. And he's so in love with this woman Samia, that he might just blow his and everyone else's cover. Oh, and has a daughter who resents him a little bit. Today we have Michael Fassbender in studio with us to discuss. Welcome to the show.
- [01:14]
Michael Fassbender
Thanks, Allison.
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Alison Stewart
So you've played such a variety of roles. What does a project need to get you interested?
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Michael Fassbender
I think, you know, obviously the writing and then who's going to be sort of, you know, directing it. And there were, you know, when the project came to me at the beginning of the year, that was, you know, the writing was great. At the Butterworths, there was a blueprint from the original series, Le Bureau, which was a French series.
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Alison Stewart
I'm so glad you said it. I couldn't say it.
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Michael Fassbender
Me neither. And each time I'm saying, I'm like, oui, oui. So I was a fan of that series and I knew we had a, you know, a really great blueprint with that. And then Joe Wright was directing. Then we had, you know, Paramount plus with all their energy and resources, 101 Studios and Smokehouse. So there was a lot of experienced people and then the cast started developing. But it's usually, you know, hopefully trying to find something I haven't done before. You know, characters that are hopefully when audiences sort of watch them, they sort of provoke questions. They're provocative characters some way or other.
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Alison Stewart
The Butterworths, of course, Jez Butterworth is an Academy Award, not Academy, an award winning director. He has it's the hills of California. He was here a couple weeks ago. He's with his brother. And Joe Wright, as you mentioned, directing when you first spoke with them, what kind of details did they want to convey about this story?
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Michael Fassbender
They didn't really tell me. I was left to my own devices. Oh, no, no. We didn't really, you know, I didn't discuss too much about it. You know, the characters. I mean, I had an initial meeting with Joe Wright, and we did discuss the sort of overall sort of world that it is. And I think that, to me, it was a fascinating, you know, just this sort of. This world that they operate in. And then, you know, why would you want to become a spy? Because for me, it's, you know, the sacrifice is so all encompassing. I mean, you know, all of his relationships are kind of, you know, left in tatters, really. There's no real way to have an honest relationship. So that was kind of, for me, the first question, like, what sort of person goes into this industry? And I found that for a lot of the cases, I think, you know, it's people that want to make a difference. You know, they go in with the best intentions to try and make a change, a good change, protect their country. But then what happens, you know, when you go in green with that sort of idealism? You know, what's it like then? 20 years down the line, what have you become? You know, when your moral compass gets so skewed by the things you have to do, where are you at down the line? Which is where we find, you know, Martian.
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Alison Stewart
What is he like when we first meet him? What's important to him?
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Michael Fassbender
That's a good question. I guess what's important, first and foremost is that he doesn't get caught. I think that's sort of the essence of his character. Because for me, I guess the first thing when I was looking at was episode one. He lies to his daughter about the apartment that he's in. And for me, it seemed like it wasn't necessary. It's such a sort of throwaway lie. And I thought, okay, well, he's just sort of woven lies into his reality. And I don't think he knows the difference because it reminded me of that scene in Apocalypse now where Martin Sheen is sort of in the hotel waiting to get called on his next mission. He's like, I'm getting weak here while the enemy is in a sort of hole, eating a bowl of rice and staying sharp. And I thought, well, maybe he's doing that. Maybe he just has sort of continually. He's found a way to make lies and reality the same thing.
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Alison Stewart
What is important to him?
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Michael Fassbender
Like I say, I think, you know, not getting caught because his.
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Alison Stewart
That's the most Important thing to him, I think. Oh, interesting.
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Michael Fassbender
If he's in Addis, you know, and he's been there six years, which is like a bit of a stretch. You know, an undercover, you know, a non official especially, wouldn't be in the field that long. That's a bit of a stretch. And so definitely when he comes back, there's. There's, you know, people should be concerned about his well being. But I think what. What's important to him in the struggle, for me, in the story is his soul, his humanity. And he's trying to grapple and find that again through the relationship with Samia and through the relationship with his daughter, who he hasn't seen much of in six years. So it's his job and these two personal relationships. And, you know, that's, I think, at the crux of the story that's there for the character, you know, this battle for his soul.
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Unknown
Is that why he is so determined sort of to shake his tail, his CIA tail? We're gonna watch him and make sure he's okay.
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Michael Fassbender
For me, I thought that was a sociopathic tendency, and I think he's definitely got them. And one of them is that, you know, the rules are fine, but they don't apply to him.
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Alison Stewart
Right.
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Michael Fassbender
And I think because he was on his own out in Addis for so long, for six years, he was his own boss. Now he's got to come home and answer to people. And he doesn't like that. He knows better. And, yeah, he's basically. There's a resentment there that he has to come back and follow orders from some people that he doesn't feel, you know, deserve that authority over him.
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Unknown
I'm gonna play a clip from the agency to get a sense of Martin's character and his attitude. He's being evaluated by an agency psychologist, and he's not at all convinced that she's there to help. This is from the agency.
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The nation needs protecting. It builds an organization, the CIA. This department seeks us out, targets us individuals who need something, something they can't get anyplace else. It nurtures us, weans us, feeds us, and sends us out into the world to behave in entirely unhealthy, devious, deviant, dangerous ways. And then when we come back, it asks us how we feel. And all the while it's hoping we don't suddenly flip and become well and can no longer do the job.
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Alison Stewart
That's so interesting when you think about what he's saying to the psychologist.
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Michael Fassbender
Yeah, because I think, you know, it's. It's advantageous to be sociopathic in this kind of job because to be able to lie so indiscriminately and to do the things that you do and then to get a good night's sleep. Cause I think you need rest, you need to be sharp, you need to get that sleep to be able to function.
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Alison Stewart
Yeah.
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Michael Fassbender
And so, yeah, I think that he's sort of highlighting the sort of hypocrisy of this situation, you know, where, you know, it's a good thing that he is sort of somewhat insane.
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Alison Stewart
I'm thinking about the Butterworths because they write plays. This is a little more dialogue heavy than Shoot Em Up.
- [08:19]
Michael Fassbender
Tell me about it. I was like, oh man, I gotta learn 10 hours of dialogue. I spend a lot of time just in a room learning lines.
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Alison Stewart
What appeals to you about a structure of a show where you actually have that much dialogue actually in a TV series?
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Michael Fassbender
It doesn't appeal to me at all.
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Alison Stewart
None at all.
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Michael Fassbender
I'd prefer not to speak. And I told him that hopefully next season we'll see a change. No, I think it's just the nature of it. You know, I've done other films where there's not a lot of dialogue. It's whatever suits, you know, the scenario, the character, the story. But that was my first time, you know, doing a TV show and being, you know, sort of the lead in it, where I did have to tackle that. You know, it's like, okay, this is a 10 hour journey as opposed to an hour and a half or two hours. So it was, you know, me in a tent learning lines. Unfortunately, I'm not very smart, so it takes me a long time to learn lines. So yeah, it was a lot of hours just sort of repeating.
- [09:22]
Alison Stewart
My guest is Michael Fassbender, star of the Agency. It's on Paramount. Plus he's playing a CIA agent based in London, dealing with the emotional and the psychological effects of being undercover. He is a parent to a teenage girl.
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Unknown
Teenagers are a problem already. How would you describe their dynamic?
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Michael Fassbender
Well, I think the dynamic. I love India Fowler, who plays the character Poppy. My daughter, she's amazing. And I think there's. There's a real connection between them because I think there's similarities there. You know, she. She's smart, she's private, she's onto him. In fact, she sort of, you know, finds a secret, sort of secret hiding place. And I think, you know, the sad thing is he's missed her journey. Becoming a sort of young woman, you know, which she is when we sort of find her now and all those years have gone. So, you know, for him, it's about trying to find that reconnection with her. But I think they're very similar as personality types. She'd be a good spy, too.
- [10:32]
Alison Stewart
We'll have more with Michael Fassbender after a break.
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Unknown
This is all WNYC Studios is supported by GiveWell. When you make a big purchase, say a car or a new mattress, how do you make sure that you're making the right choice? GiveWell provides an independent resource for a different kind of purchase, a donation. Over 100,000 donors have used GiveWell to donate. First time using GiveWell. When you go to givewell.org and pick podcast and enter WNYC at checkout, you can have your donation matched up to $100 before the end of the year or as long as matching funds last.
- [11:08]
Kai Wright
I'm Kai Wright. Throughout the years on Notes From America, you, dear listeners, have dropped some bright ideas and big questions.
- [11:15]
Unknown
A lot of people out there have very tumultuous relationships and do not choose to cut those off, such as our patriotism to the country. Why do we have allegiance to things that do not serve us?
- [11:29]
Kai Wright
We play back our liveliest calls and live moments next time on Notes From America. Listen wherever you get your podcast.
- [11:37]
Alison Stewart
Love it. You are listening to all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. My guest in studio is Michael Fassbender. He's the star of the Agency. You're with Jeffrey Wright, who's great. Richard Gere, the scenes, particularly between you and Jeffrey, are especially great. What do you find that they each bring to the role?
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Michael Fassbender
Well, I think, you know, they're very opposites. You know, Jeffrey's character, Henry, is very much by the book, and it's probably why he won't get to the top. You know, I think there is a world where the CIA, at least in my understanding, kind of rewards people that play outside the rule book in a way. And I think, you know, he is very much like, you've got to stay between the lines. Otherwise, if you start like breaching those lines, then chaos will ensue one way or the other at some point. And I think Martian likes to operate in a place of chaos. I think he's sort of rudderless when we first find him, but has more sort of crisis sort of land on his lap, his own personal ones and what's happening within the Agency and the missions that they're trying to accomplish. He is kind of in his element. That's where you see him focus he knows what he's doing. He's very proficient. But he doesn't, again, you know, adhere to the rules. He's kind of the opposite. But there is a respect between them because, you know, Henry is somebody unlike some of the others. I was saying, you know, that might. Haven't been in the field like Martian has. Henry has. So there is. There is a. You know, there's a previous relationship there. There's respect and admiration. But the cracks start to happen, you know, midway in this season. And as we get towards the end of it, you know, you can start to see there could be trouble between these guys.
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Alison Stewart
Your love interest is played by Joni Turter Smith, who said in a recent interview Michael Fassbender could have chemistry with a brick wall.
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Michael Fassbender
She's very perceptive, Jody. Well, that's. I mean, that's so sweet to say. Yeah. I mean, you know, again, you know, when this. The cast was assembling and Jody's name came up, I was just like, she's perfect. You know, she's so good. Obviously, a lot of her work is out there now and the diversity that she can bring to each character.
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Alison Stewart
Oh, Queen and SL is a great movie. A great movie.
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Michael Fassbender
Yeah. And what she does in Bad Monkey, you know, it's like she's just got, again, great natural instincts. She's super smart and.
- [14:14]
Alison Stewart
Did you guys test together or.
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Michael Fassbender
No? You know what? They asked me, do you want to do a test? I saw her reading, and I was like, we're good. You know, I was like, it's going to be fine. Which I guess was a little sort of risky because, you know, obviously that relationship is the sort of crux of that story that we're introduced to. But I just, you know, had a feeling, and. And we got on. We hit it off immediately.
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Alison Stewart
It's interesting because Martian tells his handler that, you know, it was a terrible breakup. It was a terrible breakup with this woman. It was horrible. She walked out. She caused a scene. None of that happened. Why is he dishonest with his handler?
- [14:54]
Michael Fassbender
Because I think he's just. He. Like I said, you know, before, it's sort of like dishonesty has become a defense mechanism and something that's keeping him alive. And what I found interesting is, like, the lines between who he's working for and with and who his enemies are get blurred. So it's almost like, you know, the agency itself is an enemy to him. You know, you see, like, the first couple of episodes where he's doing everything to lose his tail. There's a resentment there. He knows he's, you know, he's being listened to. His apartment's bugged, so it's almost like everyone is a potential threat. And he keeps his own reality close to his chest because of what may come down the line, how that relationship might unfold, or their knowledge of it. So, yeah, that's kind of the interesting thing about him. It's just that he's so. He's just a big liar. He's so deceptive with everyone, you know.
- [15:56]
Unknown
Well, we find out early on that he has some suspicions about his love interest. Jeffrey Wright's character, Henry is just like, just leave it. Just leave it alone. But even though there are red flags kind of everywhere, why can't he let.
- [16:11]
Michael Fassbender
Go of this love?
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Unknown
It's that simple.
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Michael Fassbender
It's that simple. And I think, you know, she has awoken something in him that he realizes he's lost. And it's become something that he needs. And he knows that if he loses that, he might lose himself completely. You know, I think, you know, his personality and the way he operates is somewhat of like a ghost. You know, he sort of moves into people's lives, in and out. And this one he doesn't want to lose. Cause I think, you know, he realizes if she goes, then he loses that sort of, you know, that human element of himself. But yeah, love, I think it's down to that.
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Unknown
He's also, I should say, he's pretty.
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Alison Stewart
Good at his job.
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Unknown
Yeah, he's very, very good at his job within the CIA because I think.
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Michael Fassbender
He'S very good at compartmentalizing. I think that's another key thing if you're doing that job, to be able to isolate individual things like his personal problems. A lot is happening in his personal life that they're not aware of, that he's hiding from the agency. And then there's serious issues that need to, you know, they've lost another undercover operative and they need to get him back. And how he handles that and how he managed to. How he manages to isol all these issues and deal with them individually and think on his feet, I think, you know, also that ability to make decisions without an emotional sort of anchor, you know, so it's like, this is the best thing that needs to be done. There will be collateral damage. And if that means human life, then so be it again. Another sociopathic, you know, trait that he has that makes him very effective in those sort of high pressure situations.
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Alison Stewart
Not that you're a sociopath, but.
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Michael Fassbender
Yeah, no, I read a book. Have you ever read the book the Psychopath Test?
- [18:02]
Alison Stewart
No, what is that?
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Michael Fassbender
It's basically to see if you're a psychopath or not. And while I was reading, I was like, recognize some of that. Recognize some of that. And I was like, oh, my God, I hope I'm not a psychopath. And it said. And at that point in the book, it says, if you're worried about being a psychopath, you're not a psychopath. So this is a good thing. I think we all have certain, you know, personality traits. Like, if you read that book, you're like, okay, there's. There's elements of it, but I'm not. I don't think I'm a sociopath. No.
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Alison Stewart
All right.
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Michael Fassbender
But I've played a couple of them because this guy is kind of, you know, the killer, which I did, you know, the film with David Fincher, last film I did, it's similar. You know, he's definitely a sociopath as well. There's sociopathic tendencies to both these guys. I guess the thing about Martian is he's trying to find that humanity within himself. That's the sort of struggle, I guess.
- [18:56]
Alison Stewart
Do you find yourself with your work, making those compartments like, this is my personal life, and then this is my work?
- [19:03]
Michael Fassbender
Yeah. I always wondered, you know, what it would be like when I had a family. Because whenever I was working, it was all work, and it was about work, and it was a very sort of selfish sort of approach. But, you know, can't do that now because I got two little kids and time to be spent with them. So I found I'm more effective in the times that I have available to each thing. So I'm like, okay, these are the hours that I'm gonna work. I'm gonna knuckle down and really get good work done. And then, you know, when I'm with the kids, hopefully switch off and be present with them. Just have to manage time better, really.
- [19:36]
Alison Stewart
That's gotta. At least.
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Unknown
That's gotta give you some sort of confidence in each department. I'm a really good dad when I'm a dad, and I'm a really good actor when I'm an actor.
- [19:46]
Michael Fassbender
Well, I guess, you know, having kids from me, it's all about them now. So it takes away. You know, before it was sort of I was all about, you know, career and work. Now, you know, everything is sort of geared towards them. So it's actually takes away a lot of that sort of pressure in some respects, because, you know, now it's all about them. And then you Know, I hopefully go and do a good job at work. But, you know, they're the most important thing.
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Unknown
Does it make you a better actor?
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Michael Fassbender
Probably worse.
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Unknown
Worse?
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Michael Fassbender
No. Just kidding. I have no idea. I mean, I think, you know, sometimes.
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Unknown
I mean, have that kind of emotion towards another person.
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Michael Fassbender
Yeah, I. What? Or just watching them, because they're the best actors, you know, because I think they're. I think great actors are great observers. And I think that's a problem, you know, that I found when you sort of become, you know, where to the public or you, you know, become famous in any way. You can no longer be that person observing. You know, you're trying to find those moments where you can do that. And if you like. I've noticed it with both my boys. They spend the whole time just watching. So they're watching you, and they're like, I know this guy. I know his sort of weak points. And so they learn how to act very young, you know, oh, crying works. But crying with tears is more effective than crying without tears. You know, it's all those little details. So observing him and his love of Fred because the other guy's still, like, super, super young, the enjoyment and enthusiasm of just playing games, I think that's. That's something that, you know, always need to remember, you know.
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Unknown
Approaching work, you have another spy film coming out with Cate Blanchett. I think the trailer dropped today. Yeah. What do you like about spy series?
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Michael Fassbender
Nothing you don't like. You know, it's funny. It just. It just. The two of them sort of came about. I mean, Soderbergh approached me first.
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Unknown
And you say yes, when Soderbergh approaches you.
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Michael Fassbender
Yeah, you know, we sort of. You know, obviously, I had a great experience in doing another spy thing called Haywire way back, and then this script came, and I was like, I'm in. And then the Agency came, and it was then about making both of them work. So I literally went from black bag straight into the Agency. But it was just pure coincidence that they're both spy things. But it's funny because there's a scene in the Agency where I get this character, Danny, who's played by Saura Lightfoot, Leon. And she's gonna be the operative that heads out to. Where does she go? Yes, exactly, Ron. And so I go go over there, get the phone numbers, job descriptions, those two guys. When I was training for Haywire for Soderbergh, this guy got me to do exactly the same thing in a bar. I think that's just how he got phone numbers. From people. Very dodgy. I was thinking to myself, this isn't right. Yeah, yeah. And then it was also like, we'd go into a bar or a restaurant and he says, okay, this is what you do. It's like, I want you to start profiling people. Two people at the bar there. Who are they? And I was like, okay, looks like a second date or looks like they've been married for 10 years. And then he was like, who are the individuals sitting at the bar without anybody and where are the threats possible? And to always go into a room and always find the optimum seat, even when you're not working. He could never get rid of it. So wherever he goes into a restaurant or bar, he'll find a seat where he can see the whole room.
- [23:10]
Alison Stewart
Oh, wow.
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Michael Fassbender
Nobody's coming to come from behind him. Yeah, I like that. You're in the worst place. You should be right here. I'm good here. And so I learned a lot back then. And those things sort of stayed, you know, where do you position yourself in a room? And that game of profiling, you know, okay, that guy's 27 years old. What sort of profession is in? He could be a threat. Or same with, you know, a woman 27 of a certain age where you think, okay, that's a potential threat.
- [23:38]
Alison Stewart
I want to ask you about Kneecap in our last minute.
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Michael Fassbender
Oh, yes.
- [23:40]
Alison Stewart
This come up three times in my life.
- [23:43]
Unknown
The word.
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Alison Stewart
The movie Kneecap. What role do you play? 30 seconds.
- [23:47]
Michael Fassbender
So I play the dad of one of the guys in Kneecap. I play the father of Nisha. I was sort of on the run and from the. Because I'm an ex IRA member and I haven't seen him in a long time and I've sort of. We've. We've drifted apart, but I'm coming back in his life.
- [24:06]
Alison Stewart
That's obviously about rappers. That movie. You have hip hop chops. You can dance, you can do the worm. Who's your favorite hip hop artist currently?
- [24:17]
Michael Fassbender
Currently. Ooh, good question. I guess Kendrick Lamar.
- [24:21]
Unknown
So good.
- [24:22]
Michael Fassbender
But my favorite is Always Notorious. Always my favorite.
- [24:27]
Alison Stewart
You can watch Michael Fassbender, the star of the Agency. It's on Paramount. Plus with Showtime.
- [24:34]
Unknown
New episodes happen every Friday. It was really a pleasure to have you in the studio. We really appreciate you taking the time today.
- [24:40]
Michael Fassbender
Likewise. Thanks so much, Alison.
- [24:42]
Unknown
There's more, all of it on the way. Our latest edition of Full Bio. It's about the book. The name of this band is R.E.M. author Peter Ames Carlin joins us.
- [24:55]
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