Interviewer (2:47)

Here's my conversation with Jonathan IGN we should note that. And it's very clear in your book, and it's really interesting that the civil rights movement wasn't a monolith. You had Malcolm X and younger black power activists thinking that MLK was too passive and deferential.

Alison Stewart (3:15)

On the other end of the spectrum.

Interviewer (3:16)

Even the NAACP wasn't always on board with Martin Luther King Jr. What issues.

Alison Stewart (3:22)

Did the NAACP have with King?

Jonathan Eig (3:25)

The NAACP was constantly struggling with how to deal with King. They saw him as a threat, in a way, to their power because King was drawing support. King was always thinking about the possibility of creating a membership for his organization, which would have undercut membership in the naacp. And the NAACP always felt like King was getting too much credit, that they were the ones changing the laws and. And that King was just sort of the loudest speaker that he was. He was getting the attention, but the NAACP deserved the credit. So there was this constant struggle. Even in Montgomery, when the bus boycott was successful, Thurgood Marshall pointed out that it was really the courts, the court victory that sealed the desegregation of the buses. It wasn't the marchers who did it. So some of it was ego, for sure.

Interviewer (4:17)

You note that MLK grew up with a lot of female attention. His mother, his sister, his grandmother. Yet he did adhere to the patriarchal nature of the civil rights movement. Ella Baker was a really big part of it. Often felt overlooked. Rosa Parks wound up financially unstable. Even though Coretta wrote, women have been the backbone of the whole civil rights movement, it really wasn't apparent in his inner circle. Why was that? Why didn't he champion women's rights as fundamental as black people's rights?

Jonathan Eig (4:53)

Sadly, our great hero of equality and justice had a blind spot, and that blind spot was women. He grew up in a very patriarchal society. The church at the time, the Southern Baptist Church, was particularly patriarchal. And they saw women as being, you know, in a role that was. That their role was meant to stay home and raise the kids. And. And Dr. King was really was really hampered by that prejudice. And he was surrounded by brilliant women. He was married to a brilliant woman. They tried to sort of wake him up, shake him out of that attitude, but they failed for the most part. And, you know, Ella Baker complained about it all the time. She said it wasn't just King. It was. It was the fact that the civil rights movement was led predominantly by black southern Baptist preachers, and that they all shared that kind of a bias. And Coretta Scott King talked about it often and even in her own memoir, said that she, you know, appealed directly to her husband and said, you know, I want to be doing more. I want to be out there protesting. And he said, your job is to stay home with the kids.

Interviewer (5:58)

My guest, Jonathan I. The name of the biography is King. The stronger and more powerful that Martin Luther King Jr. Got, the more intense the scrutiny was and the more dangerous life became for him. What kind of physical confrontations did he have? When was his life in danger?

Jonathan Eig (6:22)

King's life was in danger all the time. You know, early days of the Montgomery bus boycott, his home was bombed. Windows were shot out by a shotgun. Soon after that, he was stabbed in the chest in, in Harlem by a woman who seemed to have no real motive except that she might have been mentally imbalanced. And he was. He got received constant death threats and. And then, you know, he also became under attack by the FBI, which knew that it was creating conditions by questioning King's loyalty to America, by calling him a communist, by calling him untrustworthy, calling him a liar, that they were creating more animosity, that they were creating the kind of conditions that might stoke a madman or an angry man to come after King and then try to kill him.

Interviewer (7:14)

Let's listen to Dr. King from a news conference held at the Belmont Plaza Hotel in Manhattan in February of 1968 addressing the war in Vietnam.

Martin Luther King Jr. (7:25)

We need to make clear in this political year to congressmen on both sides of the aisle and to the President of the United States that we will no longer tolerate, we will no longer vote for men who continue to see the killing of Vietnamese and Americans as the best way of advancing the goals of freedom and self determination in south of Southeast Asia. It is imperative that church and synagogue leaders, clergy and laymen come to Washington lest persons in the federal government think that men of conscience can be cowed into silence by attack on dissenters or by blunderbuss indictments. It is time for all people of conscience to call upon America to return to her true home of brotherhood and peaceful pursuits. We cannot remain silent as our nation engages in one of history's most cruel and senseless wars.

Interviewer (8:35)

Did it matter to MLK that he would lose the ear of the President, the support of LBJ as he came out against the war?

Jonathan Eig (8:46)

King's advisors were warning him that this was a big mistake, that he was going to lose support in the North. The war was still fairly popular at this point, remember, and LBJ was deeply enmeshed in the war. It was an obsession. It was causing him nightmares. And King didn't care. He felt like he had to do this because it was the right thing. And you know, something interesting that King's friend Andrew Young said to me was that King genuinely felt like he was a minister to lbj, that he was going to help LBJ understand and his own feelings, his own challenges that he was. He was ministering to lbj. When he talked about the war, that's how King viewed it. And I find that really fascinating that he didn't see it as a confrontation at all. He wasn't worried about losing LBJ's friendship. He was worrying about saving LBJ's soul.

Interviewer (9:33)

How did Dr. King feel about JFK's soul before, obviously, he was assassinated?

Jonathan Eig (9:43)

King's relationship with JFK was complicated, too. He was disappointed with jfk. He thought JFK had made a promise to the black community that he was going to stand up for civil rights after winning the election, in large part thanks to the. To black voters. And he was frustrated that JFK was being a politician and not a moral leader, that he was counting his votes and holding off on proposing civil rights legislation because he was worried that he might lose support in the south among white voters. And this really frustrated King. He struggled with understanding why politicians could be so obsessed with. With polls and, and public opinion when they really ought to be focused on doing the right thing. And again, this goes back to him not thinking like a politician, but thinking like a. Like a preacher.

Interviewer (10:27)

There's a third person we have to mention in this equation. J. Edgar Hoover.

Jonathan Eig (10:32)

Yeah. How did we not get around to that sooner?

Interviewer (10:35)

Well, we've done an entire bio series on J. Edgar Hoover with Beverly Gage, so our audience is probably caught up. But. So Hoover was obsessed with King to the point where he named him a primary target for intel gathering. And he thought King was a hypocrite because of his dalliances with other women. He was convinced that communists were pulling one over on civil rights leaders and that black power and communism were going to become entwined. When did Hoover's targeting of King change the trajectory of King's career or the civil rights movement? Whether or not King knew about it?

Jonathan Eig (11:20)

I think the moment, the key moment is really clear. It's right after the march on Washington. King gives his greatest, most famous speech, I have a dream. And he seems like he is offering America a new way, a path out of its racist history, a path forward into a true united community of brothers and sisters. You literally, you see on tv, black and white people holding hands and singing in harmony. And King is offering us a new image of America. And that becomes an enormous threat to J. Edgar Hoover and others, certainly others within the FBI, but also others in the American power structure who want to preserve the status quo. And right after the march on Washington, the FBI produces a memo saying that King must be perceived now as our greatest threat. Whose greatest threat? Well, the white power structure's greatest threat, because he's clearly not a threat to American democracy as we understand it today. But it's all about who's in charge. And J. Edgar Hoover has built his whole career on making sure that those in charge stay in charge.

Interviewer (12:25)

Jonathan, is there anything about the legend of Martin Luther King, Jr. That you hope your book corrects or puts an end to or maybe even just illuminates?

Jonathan Eig (12:40)

Most of all, I hope that the book helps people see that King was human, that he was a real person and that he struggled, that he had doubts, that he had thought joy and pain, and he knew he wasn't perfect. And we don't need him to be perfect either. I think too often we. We want our heroes to be saintly. And one of the problems that we have with King in celebrating him is that we tend to sugarcoat his story and we focus only on the simple messages. As a result of that, we talk about I have a dream and content of our character, and we forget that he was really challenging us to be better. He was radical, and he was not afraid to force us to confront our flaws. I think that. I hope that the book will introduce King to somebody, to people in a way that they make them feel that they can get to know him as a real man.

Interviewer (13:33)

When is the next time that there'll be a tranche of information or material released about MLK and his life?

Jonathan Eig (13:40)

I believe another dump of documents is coming in December from the FBI. And then in 2027, we're expecting a big moment when the. The tapes of King's recordings, the FBI's recordings of King from his hotel rooms and from his phones will be released. That information has been sealed. Nobody has heard those tapes, and that will be an important revelation.

Interviewer (14:04)

How are you feeling about that?

Jonathan Eig (14:06)

I'm feeling fine about it, to be honest, because I think one of the great reactions to this book is that people have been willing to accept and embrace King's flaws. That in some ways, I think people find him more inspiring when they know he wasn't perfect. And we've been well prepared. We know that he was not a great husband. We know that he had affairs with women other than Coretta, but I think we can handle that and still draw inspiration from his life.

Alison Stewart (14:30)

That was my conversation with Jonathan Eig. His book is called King A Life. We'll have more all of it after the news when historian Tamiko Brown Nagin will take us into the career of jurist Constance Baker Motley. It's another full bio encore presentation about Brown Nagin's book, civil Rights, Constance Baker Motley and the struggle for equality.

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