Asia Evans (3:06)

Yeah, well, I think a lot of people really just struggle to believe that everyday existence involves mental health because there's such a stigma around the words mental health. People think that if you have anything going on with your mental health, it means that you have a diagnosable disorder. And that's just not the case. All of us have to deal with our mental health. It literally is how are we feeling, what's going on with our emotions, our psychology, it is baked into our humanness. And I think because of that, whenever you hear words, mental health or anxiety or depression, the, the lights start flashing telling you something's wrong, what's going on, when these can be everyday, normal emotions that we all experience. So I think the stigma has really hurt people's ideas of what happens when I am emotional about my money, what happens when I'm uncomfortable with something that's going on, Is there something wrong with me? As if it's a moral failing. And that's just not the case.

Show Host/Producer (4:01)

You are very clear about the type of work that you can do and you can provide for people. So help us how you think what falls under your domain as a therapist. And then what kind of needs would require a different kind of professional, someone you might point someone to?

Asia Evans (4:17)

Yeah, so I really am here for your emotional, behavioral, relational, psychological needs. So we are going to be doing a lot of talk therapy. We're going to be doing a lot of processing of your money story, your money narrative. But I am in no way, shape or form going to be touching your money. I am not going to be hanging out in your accounts. I'm not going to be giving you financial advice advice or telling you what to do with your finances. I leave that up to the financial professionals. So if you want to see a certified financial planner or a financial advisor, that's amazing. But I am not going to be the one who's actually moving your money or investing it.

Show Host/Producer (4:54)

So, listeners, maybe you've had experiences with mental roadblocks keeping you from financial security. Or maybe you have a question for Asia Evans, board certified therapist dealing in financial therapy. Our Phone lines are open, 212-433-WNYC 212-43396 too. While we can't give out medical or financial advice on the air, Asia can speak to the general ideas surrounding your experience. Our number is 212433, WNYC 212-433-9692. You talk about Avoidance being a huge issue. How would you define avoidance and what are some of the signs that people are being avoidant about their money?

Asia Evans (5:36)

Yeah, so the signs and the definition are very similar. I like to think about money avoidance when you trul avoiding your money. So that could be you are not opening your emails from your bank accounts, from your credit card companies, from bills that may be coming in, you're not checking your mail, you are not in a way purposefully dodging, but kind of like, oh, hey, I will get to it. And there's never a time where you come back to it. For some people, that is coming from a lot of anxiety around their money, around financial activities and just feeling like, I don't want to go into that mental space right now because I know it stresses me out, so I'm going to avoid it any way that I can. So some examples like I shared might be that you are, you need to go deposit some money, but you're not going to do it. You need to have a conversation with your boss about a potential raise, but for whatever reason, it just didn't come up in conversation. So you're just going to let things slide this time. You'll circle back in, you know, six months or a year. So when you find yourself really avoiding some of your financial concerns or financial activities, that's a sign that you might be a little bit money avoidant.

Show Host/Producer (6:44)

There's kind of a feedback loop that happens because financial hardships, they stress us out and the stress makes it harder for us to get our finances under control. So for folks who find themselves in. In that loop or trapped in that loop, I should say, what is a step they can take today to help break that cycle?

Asia Evans (7:05)

Yeah. So I am going to be gentle when I say this because it is very difficult, especially if you are in a financially stressful sit and you're feeling really anxious about it. What I need you to really focus on is taking some deep breaths and calming yourself, taking a pause. I don't want you to look or do anything with your money when you feel like you are in crisis. So being in crisis is very different than when you're stressed out. Right. The stress is kind of unfortunately chronic. It's there every day. But if you are in crisis, like you are in fight or flight, what am I going to do? I need to do something right this second that is not the time to look at your money. So taking the time to really understand where you're at. Are you holding your breath? Are you sweating? Are you uncomfortable? Do you feel like you're just ready to run out of the room that has your money information in it. If that's happening, then we need to take a different route and not do anything with your money and calm down. But if you are calm and you know that you're distressed, what I really need you to do is take a good, hard look at the money that is coming in to your household and the money that is going out of your household. And a lot of times I say this to my clients because they don't really know the hard exact numbers. They just feel really stressed out about it. And I need you to get clear so that you know what's going on and what's not going on and then create a plan for it.

Alison Stewart (8:28)

We're talking about the psychological side of personal finance with Asia Evans, board certified therapist specializing in financial therapy and the author of the book Feel Good Finance. If you have a question for Asia or maybe you want to talk about your mental roadblocks, we'd love to hear. Our number is 212-433-WNYC 212-433-9692. You can call in and join our conversation or you can text to us at that number as well. I was so interested. Cause you go back and you try and think about, well, where did this all start? And a lot of it starts in childhood. Right. What are some common experiences people have in their childhood that leave a lasting impression on their approach to money?

Asia Evans (9:15)

Yeah. So it really could be anything. And I want to just highlight that for people. And I also want to give the caveat that I think a lot of times we assume that if you're going to see a financial therapist or you're talking about money, it's because you don't have money. And it's because you have a lack of resources, which just is not the case. There are a lot of people who are extremely wealthy and uncomfortable financially that feel very uncomfortable about their money. So the numbers don't really matter when it comes to this type of work. So some common experience that people may go through, it could have been you went through your family moving. And I say this because with children, they may not have all of the details and they will fill in the gaps about what they know, what they can understand around what this looks like. The move could have been fantastic for the family, but not so great for the child. And that could have really impacted them. If you decided, hey, we are going to move to the country to a smaller home. But the idea in the media says, hey, people with huge houses and people who live in the city are the ones with money. Are we. Are we lacking resources? Now? That could be really difficult for people. If you went. If you heard your parents fighting about money or people in your family fighting about money, if there was any kind of manipulation that occurred around finances, you do this or else I am going to take away, or you can't have this, or I'm not going to support you. All of those. Those things could be financially traumatic. And sometimes, especially when you're in middle school or high school, when, you know, the opinions of other people matter so much, it could be, hey, my mom wouldn't spend this much money on my jeans. And that really impacted me. It could have, like, for example, myself, I love to share this story and I talk about it in my book, Feel Good Finance, that my mom had the money to spend the money on, like, the Abercrombie and Finch jeans. I'm an elder millennial, so this is very cool. And at the time. But I. She had the money to spend on that, but it was not a priority to her. She wasn't interested in spending that kind of money at the time on a pair of jeans for her fifth grader, who was probably going to outgrow them in a season. So that, to me, was really hard, though. And I'm like, but, mom, it's so. It felt so important. So those little nuances can be financially traumatic, even if it's not as big as, hey, we were lacking resources. Our lights got turned off, or we got evicted, or there was a bankruptcy. Sometimes it's, we have the resources, but the answer was still no.

Alison Stewart (11:42)

It's funny, I'm thinking about generational differences because I'm older and my parents were born during the Great Depression, and my mother could not give away beautiful wrapping paper and could not give away a bow because she didn't have it growing up. And it stacked up, and it stacked up, and it stacked up. And it was such a big deal for her to just give away a. You know, we can throw that away, Mom. It was really hard.

Asia Evans (12:07)

Yeah. I mean, as you're saying this, I. How. Why are we all keeping our. Like the bags, like the gift bags? Why are we all keeping those, thinking that we're going to reuse them? Is this where it was coming from? But these nuances.

Alison Stewart (12:19)

Yeah.

Asia Evans (12:20)

Really trickle down into our culture as a family, and we don't always interrogate where it came from.

Alison Stewart (12:25)

Yep. Every time I'm about to save a bow, it's just. I just. I recycle instead. Let's take a call from. I think it's Sabina. She's calling from Staten Island. Hi, Sabina, you're on the air.

Asia Evans (12:37)

Hello.

Sabina (Caller) (12:37)

I hope you can hear me. I hope there's no feedback.

Alison Stewart (12:39)

No, you sound great.

Sabina (Caller) (12:40)

Thank you for taking my call. As soon as I listened, you know, to the keywords trauma avoidance, it completely resonated with me because I did something that some people would think is just phenomenal. You know, they wouldn't believe it. So as you know, some people in their life, I am do child support for my two children. And I would very frequently just avoid anything having to do with child support because it's very overwhelming for me to make those lists of what's due, what can be compiled to help. And I actually. And again, this is just amazing. I avoided an email from the court that said when to show up for the court date, when to address all of these child support issues. And what ended up happening is I just ended up losing the child support just because of this avoidance, this traumatic feeling that I have every time I.

Gretchen/Abby (Callers) (13:38)

Have to address these issues.

Sabina (Caller) (13:41)

And yes, and then it kind of snowballed into avoiding emails about different bills that I have. And I did have the funds, but it's just opening those emails and then incurring overdraft fees and so on, and it just keeps snowballing and snowballing.

Show Host/Producer (13:57)

Thank you so much for calling in and we really appreciate you, your candor. Let's take Gretchen, who is calling from Brooklyn. Hi, Gretchen. Thanks for calling, all of it.

Gretchen/Abby (Callers) (14:08)

Hi, thank you so much. I have a question about if it's okay to ask a friend if you perceive some sort of financial anxiety. For example, I have a good friend, she has a lot of money, but she's, like, very cheap with her friends. So I'm just wondering, like, what's, you know, can I ask her Probe that? Or is that something. Something that, you know, you should kind of leave alone?

Show Host/Producer (14:31)

That's a very interesting question. What do you think, Asia?

Asia Evans (14:34)

Yeah, I think eventually you can get there. Just not out the gate. I would not. Just out of nowhere. If you're going to start talking about money with your friend and you haven't before, that is probably not the best question to start with because we want to be gentle and this can be really difficult and very vulnerable for her to share. So I would start out with, hey, I am finding myself wanting to learn more about money and seeing what my friends are doing or talking about money in general, and open it up and see how your Friend responds and then slowly build up the rapport around talking about money to get to a point of, hey, what do you love to, like, spend your money on what feels like a priority? And, and that can lead you into the potential answers of, hey, this is a priority. It isn't a priority. Or I'm, I'm really fearful that I may have a lot of money, but it's going to run out. I talk about this a lot. I talk about it a lot in my book Feel Good Finance, because a lot of times friends don't talk about money. And we need to, we need to start.

Alison Stewart (15:33)

Let's talk to Abby, who is calling in from Riverdale. Hi, Abby, thanks for taking the time to call, all of it. You're on the air with Asia Evans.

Gretchen/Abby (Callers) (15:43)

Hi. Thank you so much for taking my call. I have been sober, like, a few decades. I've been in therapy my whole life. I've overcome lots of traumas, but the money thing is just, I can't get it. I just, I have these crazy ideas about money. Like, if I have a lot of money, then I won't be of the common people and just ridiculous ideas, but they are so steadfast in me that I can't believe I just can't work through them. Do you have any advice?

Asia Evans (16:15)

Yeah. This takes time. So I think, of course, it's. And it's amazing that you've been sober and doing this type of work and in therapy, but a lot of times we don't dive into the financial aspects. And you're right, you nailed it. That these are money beliefs that you want to start interrogating and understanding what the root cause is, why they're there, and can you shift them and can you change them, which is possible, but it is going to take some time of understanding where they came from, how they have served you and what you think it means if you do change them to your point of, hey, what happens if I'm making this money? Who am I? That's a lot of identity work, and that can be really difficult to go into, especially if it's different than where you came from.

Alison Stewart (16:57)

This.

Show Host/Producer (16:58)

This is an interesting text, Asia. It says, I am financially fine. I have the necessary funds in the accounts.

Alison Stewart (17:05)

I need to.

Show Host/Producer (17:06)

According to my advisor, I have always felt I can't spend and I will never have enough. I have no sense of what's enough. And when I can feel comfortable spending money, what is the next step this person can take?

Asia Evans (17:24)

Yeah. So, I mean, there are the concrete steps which are, do you have Enough money coming in and what's going out. Do you understand what is the excess? Right. So the extra is where it's going to guide you on how much you can spend on nice to have things right. Or wants in that excess, whether you have savings or not will just kind of be your guide. That's the more concrete information. The other side of the information is looking at what does it mean for you to be somebody who has extra to spend on, want, wants, what does that say about you? What do you believe it says about you? And start looking at those feelings and understanding where was the root of that meaning to you and what have you decided it means about you? If you spend now, this can come from having gone through scarcity in the past, or feeling like there wasn't enough money, or having lived through not having enough resources. But now that you do, how do you begin to rewrite some of those narratives that you have have about your money that gives you some more space to also enjoy your money. Money is a tool. We do want to be stable, we want to be healthy, we want to be cared for. But there's room, if there is room for extra, then you should enjoy it. And that could be charitable giving. That could be buying a new sweater that you really love. It could be traveling or experiences or sharing experiences with other people that are in your life. So just really taking the time. And that's literally what I talk about in my book. I really go through. And it's not. I have six different kind of identities that we struggle with. And I go from the psychological roots into historical roots. And how is that showing up for you today and what you can reflect on to kind of shift some of those narratives for yourself.

Alison Stewart (19:02)

What are those historical roots you were talking about?

Asia Evans (19:05)

Yeah, so the historical roots are also the societal roots. And to your point, like thinking about, hey, my family did this one thing. So for you, it was saving the bows or their wrapping paper for somebody. It could have been, oh, we always cut the ham at Christmas to put it in this pot kind of thing. But people didn't realize it was because the pot was too small. And that's why we cut the ham. It had nothing to do with the recipe. So thinking about how this historical information of your family, but then also society comes up for you. So of course that's going to make a difference when we start talking about women, because we haven't had equal rights to do similar things as men in the financial setting. Like, it's just kind of the facts. It wasn't until 1974 that we could get get credit or a mortgage by ourselves. That impacts how we will think about money because how we were raised, if you were raised by somebody who was an adult before 1974 and is a woman, she couldn't get a house, she couldn't get a credit card. So just thinking about how society has impact impacted how you navigate your finances and your wealth.

Alison Stewart (20:11)

Currently we're talking about the psychological side of personal finance with Asia Evans, board certified therapist specializing in financial therapy and author of the book FE Feel Good Finance. Some people are in the position to grow their wealth, but they really don't know how to start doing that or if it's even an option at all. How does someone know if they're in the position to shift their approach to a more growth oriented mindset rather than the way they are living their lives?

Asia Evans (20:43)

Yeah, so I would say looking, if you are in a position where you're like, hey, I don't have any, anything extra. I'm living paycheck to paycheck, there's nothing there. That may not be the time to be thinking about how to grow your money. You need to be thinking about how you can potentially grow your income to make sure that you're out of the paycheck to paycheck cycle. Taking care, taking advantage of potential employee benefits. If you have a match, that's something that could get you on your way as well to growing your wealth. People don't think about it that way, but if you have a match and you're taking advantage of it, you're growing your wealth. If you're investing, you're growing your wealth, even if it's not a lot at the, at the time. The second point of that is when you do, like our caller that we had mentioned, when you do have the extra, what are you doing with it? Are you making sure that you're investing or are you just saving? I have a chapter in my book called Money Hoarders and it really is about people who save way too much money and are sitting on, I'll say, tens of thousands of dollars in their checking account when they really could be growing their money by investing and doing things. And I know that can be really intimidating because a lot of people assume that you need to be, you know, a financial expert to be investing and you need to have an MBA or whatnot. But there's a lot of information out there. If you go to credible sources who can help you, there are a lot of financial professionals who want to help you grow your wealth. As well. So sometimes it's about reading a book, and sometimes it might be about getting the support of somebody who can help you, walk you through actually putting the money into investments.

Alison Stewart (22:17)

And what if you're a person who's.

Show Host/Producer (22:19)

Listening to this and you just don't have the money for therapy? What are a few things that they. What you can do?

Asia Evans (22:25)

Yeah, so I. I'm gonna say definitely buy feel good finance. I talk the same way I'm talking right now. It's like you were sitting in my office. After that, I would say get support. So if that means utilizing a therapist, even if it's not a financial therapist, if there's not one that you can find you can do that, you can look into financial coaching as well to just kind of start the process. It not going to be treatment per se. We're not diving into everything and the root cause and potential trauma, but it would be a great place for you to begin to process and start making those connections. And then I would also say there are a ton of books, there are a ton of podcasts that people are having these types of conversations. And start journaling. Start taking the time of really interrogating yourself and looking at those thoughts, feelings, and behaviors that come up and thinking about what you might be able to do differently.

Show Host/Producer (23:18)

What are some of the questions you should consider when you're journaling? Because that's a really easy way to start.

Asia Evans (23:23)

Yeah. So I would say first, like, write down your whole money autobiography. Write down everything that you can remember that's happened in your life around money and finances, and reflect on it and start building that connection of what are the patterns that you have as an adult? Where does it show up? Do you like those patterns? Do you want to change them? Them and start looking at, okay, I'm starting to see the picture and how this all relates. What can I do next?

Alison Stewart (23:53)

It says here that you're the president of the Financial Therapy Association. What do you see as a potential issue for people on the horizon?

Asia Evans (24:03)

Yeah, I think, I think this has always been here. I think people have always been emotional about their money. I think what is going to continue to be an issue and has been is that people don't necessarily want to go dive in to this because it is hard and it is emotional. And sometimes we're talking about your families and talking about how you're raised. But this is not about pointing the finger. It's more about saying, hey, I don't like how I'm operating with my finances, and I do think I can do something differently so I feel better about it.

Alison Stewart (24:33)

We've been talking to Asia Evans, Board certified therapist specializing in financial therapy. The name of her book is Feel Good Finance. Untangle your relationship with money for better mental health, emotional and financial well being. Thank you for sharing your expertise with us.

Asia Evans (24:50)

Thank you for having me. This is great. Extra value meals are back. That means 10 tender juicy McNuggets and medium fries and a drink are just $8 only at McDonald's for a limited time only.

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