Mostly Meatless Recipes for the Veggie-Curious

Summary

Podcast Summary: All Of It – "Mostly Meatless Recipes for the Veggie-Curious"

Introduction

In the March 25, 2025 episode of All Of It, hosted by Koosha Navadar on behalf of Alison Stewart, the conversation centers around the growing trend of adopting a mostly meatless diet. With increasing awareness of health, environmental, and ethical considerations, many individuals are exploring ways to reduce their meat consumption without eliminating it entirely. The episode delves into America’s Test Kitchen’s new cookbook, "Mostly Meatless: Green Up Your Plate Without Totally Ditching the Meat," featuring insights from Dan Souza, the Chief Content Officer at America’s Test Kitchen.

Exploring the "Mostly Meatless" Cookbook

Dan Souza introduces the "Mostly Meatless" cookbook, emphasizing its approach to reducing meat intake without committing to a full vegetarian or vegan lifestyle. He explains, “[...] this book is really just the way that people want to eat nowadays. It’s the way that I know my friends and family want to eat” (03:03). The cookbook offers over 200 recipes that prioritize vegetables and grains while incorporating meat to enhance flavor rather than dominate the dish.

Strategies for Cutting Down on Meat

Souza outlines key strategies for transitioning to a mostly meatless diet:

1. Emphasizing Flavor and Fiber: “Flavor is key, key, key” (03:59). The cookbook leverages the five taste profiles, particularly umami, to create satisfying and delicious meals without relying heavily on meat. Ingredients like soy sauce, oyster sauce, anchovies, and nutritional yeast are highlighted for their ability to impart savory flavors.

2. Utilizing Umami: Souza explains the role of umami in replicating the satisfying qualities of meat: “Our perception of umami is because of an amino acid called glutamic acid... It triggers the same response that you get when you’re eating a piece of meat” (05:21). This approach allows dishes to maintain depth and richness even with reduced meat content.

3. Incorporating Plant-Based Proteins: The cookbook encourages the use of legumes, mushrooms, and other plant-based proteins to replace or complement meat, ensuring meals remain hearty and nutritious.

Callers Share Their Experiences and Questions

The episode features several listeners who share their experiences with reducing meat intake and pose questions to Dan Souza:

• Aria from Elmhurst, Queens (07:04): Aria discusses her fluctuating vegetarian lifestyle influenced by travel and cultural dining challenges. She appreciates the cookbook’s balance, allowing flexibility in meat consumption while exploring diverse cuisines.

• Connie from Tarrytown, New York (12:22): Connie inquires about using tempeh as a meat substitute. Souza recommends marinating tempeh with soy sauce and cooking it at high temperatures to enhance its chewy, meaty texture, as demonstrated in recipes like Indonesian gado-gado.

• Kevin from Port Washington, Long Island (19:32): Kevin shares his transition to a whole-food, plant-based diet for health reasons, highlighting significant improvements in his blood pressure, cholesterol, and overall inflammation. He emphasizes the importance of homemade vegetable stocks and roasted vegetables for flavor.

• Amy from Brooklyn (20:59): Amy raises concerns about soy protein isolate found in many meat substitutes. Souza advises favoring less processed soy products like tofu and tempeh over highly processed options, aligning with the cookbook’s emphasis on whole ingredients.

• Caleb from Bloomfield, New Jersey (26:32): Caleb discusses creating meatless sushi using sun-dried tomatoes soaked in soy sauce to mimic the umami flavor of tuna, showcasing the cookbook’s versatile substitution techniques.

• Listener with Anemia and Weight Concerns (27:44): A listener shares their struggle with balancing ethical values and health needs, finding that reintroducing certain meats alleviated anemia and improved well-being. Souza suggests choosing sustainable, low-impact proteins like mackerel to align dietary choices with ethical considerations.

Techniques for Enhancing Flavor in Mostly Meatless Dishes

Souza elaborates on several cooking techniques to amplify flavors without relying on meat:

• Blooming Spices in Fat: “[...] blooming spices in fat intensifies flavors and transfers them throughout the dish” (22:49). This method, commonly used in Indian cuisine, involves heating spices in oil or ghee to release their aromatic compounds, as seen in recipes like palak dal.

• Roasting Vegetables: Emphasizing the importance of texture and taste, Souza notes that roasting vegetables “magnifies the flavor” (17:54). Techniques such as baking root vegetables on a cookie sheet to achieve caramelization are recommended to enhance the dish’s overall profile.

Balancing Carbs and Proteins

Addressing the common misconception about carbohydrates, Souza clarifies:

“Carbohydrates are incredibly valuable for energy and keeping our bodies moving. [...] there are carbs that are really fiberful... they are slow to absorb, they give you energy for a long period of time and they’re really heart healthy” (24:30). He advocates for incorporating complex carbohydrates like legumes, quinoa, and whole grains to complement protein intake, dispelling the fear surrounding carbs and highlighting their essential role in a balanced diet.

Conclusion

The "Mostly Meatless" episode of All Of It offers a comprehensive exploration of reducing meat consumption without complete elimination. Through expert insights from Dan Souza and engaging listener interactions, the episode underscores the feasibility and benefits of a mostly meatless diet. By focusing on flavor enhancement, strategic ingredient substitutions, and embracing diverse culinary techniques, individuals can successfully navigate the transition towards a more plant-centric lifestyle while maintaining satisfaction and nutritional balance.

Notable Quotes

• Dan Souza: “Flavor is key, key, key” (03:59)
• Dan Souza: “Our perception of umami is because of an amino acid called glutamic acid... It triggers the same response that you get when you’re eating a piece of meat” (05:21)
• Dan Souza: “Blooming spices in fat intensifies flavors and transfers them throughout the dish” (22:49)
• Dan Souza: “Carbohydrates are incredibly valuable for energy and keeping our bodies moving” (24:30)

Timestamp Guide

• 03:03 – Introduction to reasons for reducing meat consumption
• 03:59 – Importance of flavor in meatless cooking
• 05:21 – Explanation of umami
• 07:04 – Listener Aria’s vegetarian experience
• 12:22 – Connie’s question on tempeh
• 17:54 – Roasting vegetables technique
• 19:32 – Kevin’s plant-based diet success
• 20:59 – Amy’s concern about soy protein isolate
• 22:49 – Blooming spices in fat technique
• 24:30 – Balancing carbs and proteins
• 26:32 – Caleb’s meatless sushi innovation
• 27:44 – Listener’s dilemma about meat consumption for health

---

Note: Timestamps are based on the provided transcript and correspond to key segments within the episode.

Transcript

[Progressive Insurance Ad]

All of it is supported by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states. Listener supported WNYC Studios.

[Koosha Navadar]

This is all of it. I'm Koosha Navadar in for Alison Stewart who is on vacation. Hey, thanks for spending part of your day with us. I'm super grateful that you're here. Here's what's up on today's show. Actor Elizabeth Olsen is here to talk about her new role as a would be parent in the new sci fi film the Assessment. We will talk with the curators of a new exhibition at Poster House that looks at images both selling and protesting nuclear energy. And we're going to talk with Emily Lazar, one of the music industry's most in demand mastering engineers. That's the plan. So let's get this started with going mostly meatless. Whether it's for health reasons or for instance, environmental reasons, more and more people are trying to cut down their meat intake. But it can be hard to give up meat entirely. The folks behind America's Test Kitchen in Boston have created a helpful cookbook for navigating a semi vegetarian lifestyle. It's called Mostly green up your plate without totally ditching the meat. The book includes recipes that use meat to enhance a meal and instead make vegetables and grains the star of the show. But the recipes make sure not to sacrifice the great flavor meat. Joining me now to discuss is Dan Souza, chief content officer of America's Test Kitchen. And I want to mention that America's Test Kitchen also has a cooking competition series. Season two of America's Test the Next Generation premieres April 1st on Prime Video. Dan, welcome to the studio. Thanks for joining us.

[Dan Souza]

Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

[Koosha Navadar]

I'm excited for you to talk to me about mostly meatless diets and listeners. We want you as part of the conversation to have you gone mostly meatless. What are your strategies for cutting down on your meat intake? Why did you decide to cut down on meat? Do you have any questions about making great meals with less meat? Give us a call. We can ask Dan. He's an expert. Call 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC. So, Dan, I really enjoyed going through the book and seeing all the different recipes. Both those with meat without meat. But let's start just generally. Why might some people want to consider trying to take meat out of their diet?

[Dan Souza]

Yeah, well, it's a good question. I mean, there are so many different reasons, whether it's, you know, you mentioned some environmental or ethical or health related. But I think at the end of the day, a lot of people don't necessarily want the label of I'm a vegetarian, I'm vegan, and everything that comes with that. I think this book is really just the way that people want to eat nowadays. It's the way that I know my friends and family want to eat. Where you're not cutting it out entirely and holding yourself to some really strict diet, but, but you're sort of taking the emphasis off of meat being at the center of the plate and you still include it when you want it and get really great flavor out of it. But it's really putting the primacy on vegetables and the stuff that you know is really healthy for you. What I think is really special about this book is, as you mentioned, flavor is king here. Right. And I think there's a lot of people that say, like, okay, we're gonna go more vegetables, we're gonna lose out on that. But there's so many great strategies for how you go more vegetable, more grains, pull back on the meat, but still have incredible flavor.

[Koosha Navadar]

Can you some of those strategies?

[Dan Souza]

Yeah, so we explored a lot in here. So I think there's really like two categories that you need to pay attention to. One is flavor, and the other is fiber. You know, when you talk about pulling meat out of food, that meat often satisfies in a way that keeps you full for a long period of time and really does that for you. Fiber is also really, really good at that. It keeps you full for longer. It's very, very satisfying and it's excellent for you. So we have, we really look at a lot of fiber, full ingredients going into there, whether it's chickpeas, whether it's certain vegetables. But the flavor is key, key, key. Right? If something isn't flavorful, you're not going to come back to it very often. And so there we look at really the five tastes that you perceive on your tongue. And one of them is super, super important. And that is umami. So this is the Japanese word for essentially savory or really mouth filling. And there's a lot of ingredients that you can add to dishes that bring out a ton of umami that you won't even really miss the meat. So we explore A lot of them in the book. Some are very traditional and things that you would know in terms of soy sauce and oyster sauce that do a ton of work there. Anchovies, which a small amount of anchovy can add meatiness without it actually tasting fishy. But we also lean on nutritional yeast, which, you know, kind of has its foothold in the kind of 70s health movement here in the US but it's cheesy and rich, and it's really packed with glutamates, which is the compound that gives you that umami savoriness.

[Koosha Navadar]

And is it that umami is apparent in a lot of meat flavors, or it just, like, is filling, like you said? What's the relationship with umami and meat?

[Dan Souza]

Yeah, so our perception of umami is because of an amino acid called glutamic acid, and that is a. You know, amino acids are kind of the building blocks of proteins. So we perceive it because it tells us, from an evolutionary standpoint, oh, I'm getting protein. And so in a way, it sort of triggers the same response that you get when you're eating a piece of meat. And some meats are very, very savory. So there's, like, fresh meat, you know, your beef and your pork and that sort of stuff. But then there's also fermented and cured versions of those, which you can use a lot smaller portion of and get tons of flavor. So a little bit bacon, a little bit of prosciutto, these sort of things can add. And even, you know, in the dried fish category of bonito flakes and anchovies, they that. That process by which they ferment and dry really concentrates and amps up that flavor.

[Koosha Navadar]

Listeners, we're talking with Dan Souza, the chief content officer of America's Test Kitchen. We're talking about their new cookbook. It's called Mostly Meatless. Green up your plate without totally ditching the meat. The premise here is that you're not going full vegetarian. For whatever reason, you totally want to cut back on the meat. And this cookbook tells you a lot of different recipes that kind of strikes that right balance, which might be right for you and listeners. We do want to hear from you. So if you've gone mostly meatless, if you have strategies for cutting down on your meat intake, if you have a reason that you want to share about why you decided to cut down on me, give us a call. Or, of course, if you have questions for Dan or me, I don't know that I can answer them, but we can definitely ask Dan Give us a call, send us a text. We're at 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC. Dan, we've got our first caller. I'd love to go to them.

[Dan Souza]

Great.

[Koosha Navadar]

Aria in Elmhurst, Queens. Aria, hey, welcome to the show.

[Aria]

Hi, glad to be here. Longtime listener. Yeah, my experience of being vegetarian just ends up being sort of back and forth. For a lot of my years in my life, I was vegetarian. I did a bunch of travel and sometimes abroad. It's not the easiest to experience a culture when you choose to eat only veg. So I found myself eating meat for a couple of years back there. But I think something that's been super helpful coming back to the US and just trying to get a good grip of it is, you know, trying different cultures at the same time. That there's a lot of cultures that are really meat centric. There's also a lot of kinds of food from like, say, for example, Indian cuisine, which is really good and really vegetarian. And I think that subcontinent has a lot to offer in terms of just like, great vegetarian or meat like options. Soy chunks is like a very old style vegetarian option that's been used as a meat substitute. And I know for me, I, you know, I have lots of family friends that still eat meat. And so if I go over for dinner or something, you know, if everybody's making meatballs, sometimes it's easier and happier. Yeah, well, you know, just enjoy the red sauce and get on with my day.

[Koosha Navadar]

Yeah. Aria, thank you so much for that call. Really appreciate it. Dan, what were you going to say?

[Dan Souza]

That's a great question. Yeah, you know, it really, it hits on. One of the big aspects of this book is there are a lot of truth cuisines that follow a mostly meatless formula. Right. And I think about Korean cuisine, I think about Chinese, Indian he mentioned. And so there's some really traditional recipes in here that are just naturally kind of fit the mold, which I think is really great. But also, you know, as you're, as you're traveling and trying things, you do explore so much in this realm of mostly meatless and what you can take from that and kind of bring back home, I think is really, really valuable. But yeah, we have 200 plus recipes in here and some of them will, you know, we have a kimchi jigae, which is incredible and it's got a little bit of pork in there, but tons of protein from the tofu as well. So, yeah, it's a really nice Mix. And I think there's a lot of people that have gone that way of vegetarian and then kind of slipped back out of it. And it's sort of almost that, like, people fall into diets and they sort of go back and forth. And this is, like, I think, a really great way to eat that you can sort of live with.

[Koosha Navadar]

I'm so happy you brought that up because it's a great segue to my next question. You're sitting right here. I'm wondering, have you tried to go mostly meatless at any point? What's your personal relationship with this?

[Dan Souza]

Oh, definitely. I mean, I eat mostly meatless now. I did a vegetarian period when I was in sort of high school and college. I thought it was great because in some ways, it forces you to understand vegetables more and dig into them and learn more about technique. We talk about sort of anything that you describe as meaty is something you should be interested in for this book or for developing recipes for this book, because think about mushrooms, we call them really meaty. There are meaty vegetables, like eggplant. Jackfruit is a really interesting fruit that has sort of a meaty texture and is used as a meat substitute. So going vegetarian, restricting yourself a little bit, I think you can kind of force some creativity out of that process. And so having done that experience, I pull that into my cooking now. But, no, I definitely eat. I eat mostly meatless. You know, the caller mentioned meatballs and going to someone's house, and it's like, all right, if it's meatballs, we're going to do meatballs. We actually have a meatball recipe where it's only about 40% beef, and the rest is made up of chickpeas. It's got some dried mushrooms in there, some panko, some parmesan. And so it's really satisfying, and you get that lovely texture, some good meatiness, but with significantly less.

[Koosha Navadar]

What is the process for developing recipes at America's Test Kitchen? Because I look through the credits in the book, and there's a lot of cooks in the kitchen. I guess there's a lot of folks that are contributing to this. So how do you make the recipes?

[Dan Souza]

Yes, a lot of cooks in the kitchen is a great way to put it. So we have about 45 test cooks. We have an incredible test kitchen in Boston. It's about 17,000 square feet of test kitchen space. And so, I mean, we've been doing this for about 25 years. And we have a real formula for. Takes us probably five or six weeks to develop a Recipe, and it's the scientific method. So we decide what recipe we want to test, and we test it on an iterative process. Like, let's try increasing this baking soda by a little bit and then do a side by side test, see what we like, and then move on to the next test and the next. So there's some fun out there testing, but there's a lot of sort of, like, sort of boring just, like, going through it. In order to get to a recipe that we've tested everything, we're really confident that this is the best way to do it for us, Us. And then once we've got to that point, we actually have this panel, this incredible panel of about, I think it's 50,000 home cooks that will volunteer to make our recipes before we publish them.

[Koosha Navadar]

Oh, interesting.

[Dan Souza]

Yeah. And so we send it out and they give us incredible feedback. Like, this step was a little bit confusing, or I couldn't find this ingredient that allows us to go back in the kitchen and sort of bulletproof the recipe before we publish it. So there's so much work that goes into it before you make it at home. We like to say that we make the mistake so you don't have to, like, you can take one of these recipes, invite friends over, and cook it the first time, and it's gonna work for you.

[Koosha Navadar]

Wow. How long does that process take from soup to nuts?

[Dan Souza]

About six weeks.

[Koosha Navadar]

Oh, that's actually pretty fast, I'd have to say. If you're, like, doing the scientific method and then crowdsourcing it.

[Dan Souza]

Yes, yes, it is. But, you know, so we really give. We give these amazing cooks the resources and the time to do it. So it's like their 9 to 5 and 40 hour week just really focused on diving into these recipes.

[Koosha Navadar]

Wow. There's a lot of knowledge in these pages. Let's go to Connie in Tarrytown, New York. Hey, Connie. Welcome to the show.

[Dan Souza]

Hi.

[Connie]

How are you guys?

[Koosha Navadar]

Good, thanks.

[Connie]

I'm calling because I understand that tempeh is, like, less processed than tofu, and I really like that it's so chewy, you know, because it sort of gets, you know, has that meaty texture. But I don't really see a whole lot of recipes for tempeh, and I was just wondering if there's some general tips for how to use it.

[Dan Souza]

Yeah, that's a great question. So we have a wonderful recipe in the book for gado. Gado, which is an Indonesian salad. Salad might be kind of a soft word for what it is because it's so Packed with wonderful things. But it's got some tempeh in there. A lot of times tempeh is really nice when it's marinated simply. So something a little bit salty, like soy sauce, a little bit of fat in there. And then I like it really, when it's cooked at a pretty high temperature to get some browning. It's got a lot of protein in there. And so I've had, had it deep fried and it's wonderful. Or even just like sauteed in a skillet is really nice. But in gado gado, you make this wonderful peanut sauce that is like, I mean, I would eat anything that this sauce is touching. And you have some seared off tempeh and you have some blanched green beans and potatoes and you just make this gorgeous salad and you cover it in the peanut sauce, which is also really rich in protein. And the tempeh, like you said, adds this incredible, like, chew and sort of meaty quality to it and it just plays off the other components so well. But yeah, I'm a huge tempeh fan. We have a few other recipes in there for it and each tempeh is kind of different. So it helps to sort of shop around and find the one that you.

[Koosha Navadar]

Really like in terms of texture or.

[Dan Souza]

In terms of flavor, texture, composition. And some of them come pre marinated as well, which can be really nice.

[Koosha Navadar]

Yeah. There's some text that I want to read up as well. Here's one. I gave up slaughterhouse products for 20 years for moral reasons. Factory farming is cruel and unhealthy. I now eat meat sparingly, but only include organic flesh foods that come from local farms that are not CAFOs. Do you know what CAFO stands for, Dan?

[Dan Souza]

Yes. Yeah, it's basically the factory farming, the CAFOs.

[Koosha Navadar]

Oh, okay, got it. CAFO. And then here's another one. Oh, this is interesting. Small amounts of very sharp, salty cheese also does a lot of work. Feta blue parm, extra sharp cheddar goat halloumi. Wonderful tip. Yeah, just a little bit of cheese can go a long way. Speaking of going a long way, we're going to come back with with Dan Souza, the chief content officer of America's Test Kitchen. After a quick break, we're talking about their new cookbook. It's called Mostly Meatless. Green up your plate without totally ditching the meat. And listeners, as you may have gathered, we are taking your calls and your texts. So if you have gone mostly meatless and you have a question for Dan or you just want to share your experience, your strategies, give us a call or send us a text. We're at 212-433-9692. We'll be right back after this. This is all of it on wnyc. I'm Kushan Avadar, and we are talking to Dan Souza. He's the chief content Officer for America's Test Kitchen. And we're talking about this cool new cookbook that the America's Test Kitchen just came out with. It's called Mostly Meatless. Green up your plate without totally ditching the meat. The conceit is that you don't have to go full vegetarian if you're not ready or for whatever other reason. If you want to go mostly meatless and you want to make grains and vegetables the star of the show on your plate, well, America's Test Kitchen has come out with a bunch of interesting recipes that you can try out. And listeners, we want to hear from you. Have you gone mostly meatless? What are your strategies for cutting down on your meat intake? Why did you decide to cut down on meat? Give us a call or send us a text. We're at 212-433-9692. That's 212433, WNYC. Dan, we had a bunch of texts just come through that I'd love to get your take on. Here's the first one. It says, I eat very little meat, but through a migraine elimination diet, discovered that grains and legumes are not my friends. I'm a distance runner and struggle to get enough protein without relying heavily on milk protein. Any tips? Great question.

[Dan Souza]

That is a great question because I usually go to a lot of legumes to get the sort of protein in there.

[Koosha Navadar]

And would pea protein count as a legume in this case?

[Dan Souza]

I think technically, yeah. Yeah. And I would usually go with chickpeas and things like that. I mean, we lean on mushrooms a lot in this book for kind of meaty texture. They have some protein. They're not super, super high in it, but that's a tricky one. I really think I would look to nuts and mushrooms and. Yeah. And if you can get a little bit of, like, soy protein in there at times, not too much, but maybe a little bit, that'd probably be my best bet.

[Koosha Navadar]

Yeah, Soy protein might be a good option.

[Dan Souza]

A little bit. Yeah, Yeah. I know it's in the legume family there, but yeah, some of those guys are so, so protein packed.

[Koosha Navadar]

Yeah. Well, we hope that helps. You know, I'm a distance runner myself, so this question really does hit home. I rely on pea protein myself, personally, so I hope that the person who texted is able to find some of those options to work. Here's another text that says, enjoying this segment. Love America's test Kitchen.

[Dan Souza]

Oh, awesome.

[Koosha Navadar]

Big soup guy here in Bay R. A neighbor of mine is vegan, so I started to experiment. I save all of my organic vegetable scraps and make a stock. No more meat stalks for my soup. Anytime I have root vegetables, they go in the oven to be roasted. This really magnifies the flavor. What do you think about that?

[Dan Souza]

Oh, absolutely. A good stock can do so much for a dish. And I think, you know, chicken stock is wonderful. Beef stock is wonderful. But at the end of the day, you're looking for kind of body and background richness. And so I think a vegetable stock can do so much. And if you get a little bit dried mushroom in there, it can add a lot. But I would also look at seasoning it up. You can do a little bit of soy sauce, or you can do a little nutritional yeast. You can bring a lot of that hyper umami savoriness that you get in a lot of meat stocks to a vegetable stock very, very easily. There's even a product that we test ingredients a lot as well. And there's one called better than bouillon that we use instead of stock, and they make a vegan one that has essentially mimics the flavor of chicken and is really umami. But, yeah, a lot of that can be done without meat at all involved in the process. If you think about msg, I mean, that's originally derived from seaweed, so you can really get it without the meat.

[Koosha Navadar]

I feel so vindicated because we use better than bouillon in my household.

[Dan Souza]

You do?

[Koosha Navadar]

I feel like America's Test kitchen just told me I'm doing something right.

[Dan Souza]

You absolutely are. Yeah. We test so many products. We test equipment and then ingredients, too, to try to figure out, like, at the supermarket, what's your best buy for, like, tomato paste or you name it. We try to arm people with everything that they need from, like, setting up their kitchen to serving the meal.

[Koosha Navadar]

Let's go to some callers. We've got Kevin in Port Washington, Long Island. Kevin. Hey. Welcome to the show.

[Kevin]

Hi. How are you guys today?

[Koosha Navadar]

Great, thanks.

[Kevin]

I'm enjoying this very much, by the way.

[Dan Souza]

Oh, great.

[Koosha Navadar]

Great. Thank you.

[Kevin]

Thanks. About seven and a half years ago, I went whole food plant based for health reasons, and the results were dramatic. I was pre diabetic. Within three months, I was normal My blood pressure came under control. My cholesterol dropped way down. Overall, inflammation started. So for a healthy body, for health reasons, this has been a tremendous thing to go full bore on the plant based. A lot of the things you've been talking about I use better than bullion is great for adding flavors. I make my own stocks. You know, my favorite thing is my instant pot this time of year for making stews. Roasted. Somebody mentioned roasted vegetables. I heard absolutely the best way to do them, put them on the cookie sheet and pop them in the oven. And the flavor just is enormous. I will say my family came along with me on this. They're probably 90% in the whole food plant based vein. I will say that the difference here, though is that I do not use any processed foods and also refined sugars I have cut down. So the sweeteners that I use are.

[Koosha Navadar]

The refined sugars can make a big difference. Kevin, we really appreciate that call. Happy to hear that that diet has worked so well for you. Let's go to Amy in Brooklyn. Hey, Amy, welcome to the show.

[Connie]

Hi. Thank you so much. Apologies. My question is around soy protein isolate, which is in a lot of meat substitutes. And I was wondering, I've heard some bad things about it. I wanted to know what your take was about that. Is it good? Is it bad? What's the deal?

[Dan Souza]

Yeah, well, so I think a lot of times I think about processing, how much processing has been done to an ingredient before you get it. We know ultra processed foods are not so great for us. In the book, we actually lean more on sort of traditional products, for lack of a better term. So if it's soy, it's going to be tofu or maybe it's going to be tempeh or something like that. We don't really have in the book any of the sort of pea protein crumbles or soy protein isolate. I think there's a lot to dig into there and there's probably ones that are totally fine and good. We just tend to pull back a little bit. A little less processing. We know a little bit more about what's going into it. That would be kind of my recommendation for. Our last caller raised a really great point around, like, roasting vegetables because technique is such a really important aspect here too, because you can have a sweet potato and you could steam it, you could boil it, you could roast it, and the more you do to it to kind of bring out additional flavors, the more interesting it gets. So we do a ton of roasting in here, a lot of sauteing those high heat methods will produce browning that add this kind of extra layer of flavor. And so when you're working with a. A slightly more limited pantry, not to say that this is actually very limited, it really helps to pay attention to how you're cooking something and what additional flavor you can bring out.

[Koosha Navadar]

It's interesting you bring that up, because there's this one technique in the book that struck me, at least that, I guess, is technique. It's blooming spices in fat. So we think about meat is just like, oh, the steak. But actually cook bacon, you've got a lot of fat to use as part of it. Can you talk a little bit about that strategy of blooming spices and fat?

[Dan Souza]

Totally. So I think, like, looking to, you know, the Indian subcontinent is a. Is. Is where to go when you're talking about spices and blooming. It does so much for it. So what one thing is, like, if you can buy whole spices and then grind them, you're much better off. They're very volatile, which is why we smell them in the air. But if it's. If it's finely ground, it has tons of surface area exposed, and you lose that pretty quickly. So grinding spices fresh is really, really valuable. Or even keeping them sort of whole. Blooming them in spices does a couple of things. One is it intensifies some of the flavors that you're already getting that's kind of that blooming. You know, it's almost onomatopoeic. It's kind of explaining what's happening there. So you bring the flavor out. It also transfers a lot of that flavor to the fat. So most flavor compounds are these big molecules that are fat soluble. So it pulls into the fat, and that fat spreads throughout the dish. We have this wonderful dish in the book, which is a dal. It's a palak dal, so it has spinach in it, but it's finished with a tadka, which is an amazing technique of basically heating spices and sometimes curry leaves and chilies in fat, whether it's ghee or oil, and then pouring it over the top of the dal at the end, and it sizzles and crackles. But you're pulling so much flavor out of that, and you get it kind of immediately on your palate because it's front and center. So that's a wonderful technique. And anytime you're using spices, it's good to think about. Is there a step I could do first to sort of pull them out and really season that fat?

[Koosha Navadar]

Yeah, I want to talk about grains for a second. As well, a key part of cutting down on meats does mean adding more grains. Right now there seems to be a trend towards prioritizing protein over carbs. Like people are kind of scared of carbs. Can you talk about that a little bit? Why shouldn't we be scared of carbs?

[Dan Souza]

You know, I think like the term carb is unfortunately so broad and it does a really disservice to what they are. So carbohydrates are incredibly valuable for energy and keeping our bodies moving. But there are carbs that are really, really highly refined, that spike your glucose levels, aren't really great for you and your heart. And then there are ones that are really fiberful. And so those are whole grains, those are chickpeas, there's so many. And they are slow to absorb, they give you energy for a long period of time and they're really heart healthy. So they can lower your cholesterol and all these good things. And so I would really push people to sort of separate them out. If you look at a lot of traditional diets that have kept people living for really long periods of time, they're pretty high in these kind of slow burn, really complex, complex carbohydrates. Yeah. And so I think. And you can get a lot of protein out of those as well. I think we're a little protein obsessed in this country and you need to get this much, but.

[Koosha Navadar]

Well, I need my gains, Dan.

[Dan Souza]

Yeah, you need your gains. Look, you and I both, we both look like we're really putting on a lot of muscle, but. And I think there's even bodybuilders that like have done it without tons of meat. And there are definitely ways to get more protein in that vein. But complex carbohydrates, those slow fiber foam, whole carbohydrates, are a cornerstone of any really good.

[Koosha Navadar]

Can you think of an example like a staple of a complex carb that is really good to go to?

[Dan Souza]

Yeah, definitely. I mean any legumes are going to be amazing for you. Whether it's your cannellini beans or chickpeas or anything like that. I think chickpeas in general are really great. Quinoa's are really great high protein grass seed essentially. But that is also awesome there. So if you're moving, you can move away from your, your really refined white breads and white rices and stuff like that. I still enjoy them, but maybe in moderation and definitely with lots of other foods to kind of slow the absorption. But we got to get rid of this fear of carbs thing. I don't think it's doing us any service.

[Koosha Navadar]

Let's go to Caleb in Bloomfield, New Jersey. Hey Caleb, welcome. Welcome to the show.

[Caleb]

Hey, thanks for having me. Yeah, so my girlfriend is pescatarian. Excuse me, I'm not. We do, you know, eat a fair amount of fish and shellfish. However, we found a nice workaround for sushi. We love sushi to death. We order it out a lot when we make it at home. We've been trying to get, you know, much better at it. We found to soak sun dried tomatoes in a little bit of soy sauce for about 30 minutes to an hour. And it gives a fantastic umami flavor similar to like a tuna. So if you're making a roll or sashimi or something, it's a great substitute, meatless substitute for or sushi at home.

[Koosha Navadar]

Caleb, thank you so much. Really appreciate that call. I want to look at the clock here. Just read a few more texts. Here's a few of them. I was vegetarian for years. In terms of values, I aligned with it. However, I became very anemic and gained weight and felt terrible. I tried many, many things. One day, after years, I had to try red meat again. I immediately felt better. Working meat back in cured my anemia. I lost 30 pounds and feel much better. However, my values don't align with my diet. What would you. I find this to be such an interesting question because different diets work for different folks and this does sound like a bit of a tricky situation.

[Dan Souza]

It definitely is. I think looking at the choice of protein and we can get into a lot of ethical conversations. I think you talk about beef has big environmental impact and in general it's not raised in a really sustainable way in this country. If this listener is a fan of fish and seafood, I would look at fish that are very kind of low down on the food chain. So like mackerel is one of my favorite fish ever and you can get it smoked and it's really, really incredible. And so it's going to be low in mercury because it's, you know, it doesn't grow for a long period of time and eat lots of other fish. It's really high in omega 3s and it's fast reproduced. So it's really sustainable. So I can feel a lot better about that choice than maybe, you know, having a corn fed steak and that sort of thing. So I would, I would look at the proteins and see that like they're not all the same in a lot of different ways. Not everyone loves the oily fish and stuff. Like that. But I would look for those sort of options that fit into your, you know, your sort of ethical lens and obviously what your palate enjoys. Because if you don't like it, you're not going to, you're not going to keep eating it.

[Koosha Navadar]

Yeah. And there's a lot to like about this book. If you're looking for a way to have some meat but make grains and vegetables the bigger star of the show, my guest was Dan Souza, chief content officer of America's Test Kitchen. We talked about the new cookbook, mostly meatless, green up your plate without totally ditching the meat. Listeners, thanks so much for your calls. Really loved getting them and the texts. And Dan, thanks so much for coming by.

[Dan Souza]

Oh, thanks for having me. Anytime. I'll be back. You don't wake up dreaming of McDonald's fries. You wake up dreaming of McDonald's hash browns. McDonald's breakfast comes first.

[Progressive Insurance Ad]

Since WNYC's first broadcast in 1924, we've been dedicated to creating the kind of content we know the world needs. Since then, New York Public Radio's rigorous journalism has gone on to win a Peabody Award and a Dupont Columbia Award, among others. In addition to this award winning reporting, your sponsorship also supports inspiring storytelling and extraordinary music that is free and accessible to all. To get in touch and find out more, visit sponsorship.wnyc.org.