Music in the Halls of Congress

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Music in the Halls of Congress"

Podcast: All of It with Alison Stewart (WNYC)
Date: April 8, 2026
Guest: Professor Anna Harwell Chilenza (Johns Hopkins University), author of On the Record: Music that Changed America

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Episode Overview

In this engaging episode, Alison Stewart talks with Professor Anna Harwell Chilenza about her new book, On the Record: Music that Changed America. The conversation explores the political power of American songs—from "The Star-Spangled Banner" to "Strange Fruit" to "Hamilton"—and examines how music has entered the halls of Congress, influenced legislation, and shaped the country's social and political narrative. The episode also features listener call-ins about their favorite political songs.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

The Star-Spangled Banner and National Anthem Debates

[01:09 – 04:32]

• Delayed Adoption as Anthem:
  “Let’s start where the book begins, with the Star Spangled Banner, which was not the official anthem of the United States till 1931.” (Alison Stewart, 01:45)
  Chilenza explains that it took over a century for "The Star-Spangled Banner" to become the official anthem. Other contenders included "Hail Columbia" and "Yankee Doodle Dandy," but a push from Maryland congressmen ultimately secured "The Star-Spangled Banner"’s status.

• Context of Adoption:
  The Great Depression and national division prompted legislators to seek national unity, leading to the anthem's adoption.

  “It really was the Great Depression and the stock market fall in 1929 ... politicians were trying to ... bring people together.” (Anna Harwell Chilenza, 03:09)

• Francis Scott Key’s Complex Legacy:
  Key was a slave owner and prosecutor, involved in significant Supreme Court cases. His complicated stance on race and free speech, particularly in the case of United States vs. Reuben Crandall, is highlighted.

  “He was kind of hypocritical.” (Anna Harwell Chilenza, 03:59)

• Civil War Irony:
  The song was embraced in the North but rejected in the South during the Civil War due to its association with the Union flag, despite Key's family sympathizing with the South.

  “Go figure.” (Anna Harwell Chilenza, 04:32)

"Lift Every Voice and Sing" and the Role of Copyright

[05:13 – 06:38]

• Chilenza discusses the "Black National Anthem" as a meaningful alternative and explains why it did not achieve wider adoption. The publisher's control and high copyright fees limited its spread and influence nationally, introducing the concept of the music industry as a powerful, sometimes constraining, force in musical history.

  “A third character in this book is the music industry ... had a huge impact on the pieces that can have an impact in those that can’t.” (Anna Harwell Chilenza, 06:16)

Rhapsody in Blue, Intellectual Property, and Defining American Music

[07:33 – 09:37]

• Rhapsody in Blue’s Significance:
  Gershwin’s composition helped Congress focus on intellectual property and what can be considered "American sound." This led to debates about cultural identity and the protection of artistic works.

  “We’ve found the American sound to sort of counteract European culture. And then we start to get these debates on, well, how do you protect that American sound?” (Anna Harwell Chilenza, 07:54)

• Duke Ellington’s Response:
  Ellington’s collaborative and competitive musical dialogue with Gershwin asserted that there’s no single American sound and emphasized jazz’s role in American culture.

  “The power of Duke Ellington’s music was to say there is not one American sound.” (Anna Harwell Chilenza, 08:32)

Jazz as Diplomacy: The State Department's "Secret Sonic Weapon"

[10:20 – 11:53]

• Jazz and the Cold War:
  During the civil rights era, U.S. cultural diplomats used jazz—and musicians like Dizzy Gillespie—as international tools to combat Soviet criticism about racism in America.

  “We can present jazz as a symbol of democracy. It’s equality. Everyone gets to play a solo. But there’s sort of rules that we agree to follow in creating this piece. And it was a incredibly powerful tool.” (Anna Harwell Chilenza, 11:32)

"Strange Fruit" and the Fight Against Lynching

[11:53 – 16:12]

• Origins and Impact:
  The anti-lynching anthem was written by Abel Meeropol, a Jewish schoolteacher and Communist Party member, and famously recorded by Billie Holiday. Its haunting commentary on lynching became a mobilizing force in civil rights efforts.

  “And then he met another Communist friend, Josephson ... and it was the first racially integrated club in New York City. Billie Holiday was the house singer. And the idea was hatched, what if we got her to sing the song?” (Anna Harwell Chilenza, 13:54)

• Strange Fruit in Congress:
  Lyrics were distributed to every U.S. senator in a push for anti-lynching legislation.

  “At this point in history, lynching was not a federal crime. ... It took until 2022 for us to get an anti-lynching federal law.” (Anna Harwell Chilenza, 15:06)

• Lasting Influence:

  “Just the power that this song from 1939 until 2022, it took a while, but the seeds took root when that legislation was passed.” (Anna Harwell Chilenza, 16:05)

Protest Songs: Power vs. Political Limitations

[16:52 – 18:40]

• Listener Favorites & Protest Song Function:
  Songs like “Ohio” (Neil Young), “Move On Up a Little Higher” (Mahalia Jackson), “Simple Song of Freedom” (Bobby Darin), and “What’s Going On” (Marvin Gaye) are discussed.

• Effects on Policy:
  Protest songs can unify and heighten awareness but rarely influence Congress directly unless proactively brought to lawmakers' attention (e.g., “Strange Fruit”).

  “Congress does not pay a lot of attention to protest songs ... unless they're sort of forced to, like with Strange Fruit.” (Anna Harwell Chilenza, 17:04)

• Musical Power of “What’s Going On”:

  “It is a song that says, despite all these things that are happening, there is hope that it will get better. That music, the music, just the pure music element helps us kind of tap into what’s human.” (Anna Harwell Chilenza, 18:34)

Musical Theater: West Side Story and Hamilton in Policy and Public Imagination

[19:28 – 21:24]

• Why These Musicals Matter:
  "West Side Story" impacted national discussions on juvenile delinquency—JFK's administration is cited as being influenced by it.

  “One of his assistants ... said, West Side Story. So that the way that musical looks at juvenile delinquency, as far as the Jets go, the white gang, it made a lot of people think about sort of how we're treating our youth.” (Anna Harwell Chilenza, 19:57)

• Stereotypes and Missed Opportunities:
  The musical also perpetuated problematic stereotypes about Puerto Ricans and Puerto Rico’s relationship to the U.S.

  “Those negative stereotypes were only reinforced all the more in that musical. Mainly just I think, because it was a quick choice ... They didn’t really do their research.” (Anna Harwell Chilenza, 20:39)

• Hamilton’s Resonance:
  Although only mentioned briefly at the end, "Hamilton" is credited with reframing U.S. history and civic identity through music.

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Notable Quotes and Moments

• On the politics behind picking the anthem:

  “With the Star Spangled Banner, the flag is sort of the unifier. And with Hail Columbia, it’s the president…maybe that wouldn’t be good if a single figure, a person, you know, he could become tyrannical if that happened.” (Anna Harwell Chilenza, 02:19)

• On "Lift Every Voice and Sing":

  “What you see is the publisher starts to charge really high fees to reprint or perform that music … the music industry has, ever since the turn of the 20th century, had a huge impact on the pieces that can…have an impact and those that can't.” (Anna Harwell Chilenza, 05:59)

• On "Strange Fruit" and anti-lynching law:

  “The seeds took root when that legislation was passed.” (Anna Harwell Chilenza, 16:09)

• On protest songs and Congress:

  “Protest songs ... are incredibly powerful. ... Interestingly, Congress does not pay a lot of attention to protest songs.” (Anna Harwell Chilenza, 17:04)

• On the musical theater and politics:

  “Politicians talk about them. ... One of his assistants ... said, West Side Story." (Anna Harwell Chilenza, 19:47)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Opening, context for Star Spangled Banner: 01:09 – 04:32
• Civil War, Francis Scott Key, and "Lift Every Voice": 04:32 – 06:38
• Gershwin, Ellington, and intellectual property: 07:33 – 09:37
• Jazz diplomacy and the Cold War: 10:20 – 11:53
• "Strange Fruit" and anti-lynching activism: 11:53 – 16:12
• Listener calls and protest song impact: 16:12 – 18:40
• Musicals in Congress: West Side Story & Hamilton: 19:28 – 21:24

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Memorable Listener Moments

• Caller John on “Ohio” (Neil Young, about Kent State massacre): “I think it’s an extremely powerful and legendary American political song.” (07:07)
• Listener text: Mahalia Jackson’s “Move On Up A Little Bit Higher” called “an important anthem of the civil rights movement.” (07:33)
• Caller John from New York recommends “Simple Song of Freedom” by Bobby Darin as a relevant antiwar song. (16:18)

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Closing

The episode closes with Alison Stewart highlighting how music—from the anthem to protest songs to Broadway—never just acts as backdrop in American culture, but often sparks and shapes the country’s political changes and moral reckonings. Anna Harwell Chilenza’s insights, enriched by listener contributions, make clear that in the halls of Congress and beyond, music continues to challenge, unite, and inspire the nation.

Transcript

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[Alison Stewart]

This is all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. There have been many songs, political songs, throughout history, but only some of them have made their way into the halls of our country's political institutions. And in some rare cases, those songs have actually influenced legislation and shaped American political history. Those influential pieces of music are the subject of a new book by Johns Hopkins University professor Anna Harwell Cholenza. The book is called on the Music that Changed America. And Chilenza will be in conversation at PT Knitwear tonight, but she's in studio with me right now. It is nice to see you.

[Anna Harwell Chilenza]

Thank you, Alison. It's great to be here.

[Alison Stewart]

Listeners. Do you have a favorite political song? Whether it was one that influenced American politics or inspired legal action or just one that really speaks to political and social issues that matter to you. You can call in or text us now at 2124-3396-9221-2433, WNYC. Let's start where the book begins, with the Star Spangled Banner, which was not the official anthem of the United States till 1931.

[Anna Harwell Chilenza]

Yeah, it took over a century.

[Alison Stewart]

You know, why did the Star Spangled Banner win out over other songs?

[Anna Harwell Chilenza]

Actually, it just took tons of debate. And there were a number of songs that were being considered, for example, like Hail Columbia. And the argument against that piece was, well, you know, with the Star Spangled Banner, the flag is sort of the unifor. And with Hail Columbia, it's the president. And there were folks who thought, you know, Maybe that wouldn't be good if a single figure, a person, you know, he could become tyrannical if that happened. So they had some foresight there, but, yeah, so there have been lots of songs. Even Yankee Doodle Dandy was considered. But in the end, I think a lot of it had to do with our congressmen in Maryland who really worked to get that song.

[Alison Stewart]

I was surprised to learn that it didn't.

[Interviewer]

It wasn't earlier that.

[Alison Stewart]

What didn't happen earlier.

[Interviewer]

Why wasn't the Star Spangled Banner, our national anthem, earlier than 1931?

[Anna Harwell Chilenza]

Well, I think the. The big question is what was the thing, the instigating thing that made it come together? And it really was the Great Depression and the stock market fall in 1929. It. That created a time in the United States when there was a lot of polarity, not just economically, but politically. There were race riots that were happening, all of these sorts of things. And so politicians were trying to do lots of legislation to kind of bring people together. And they said, we need to create this sort of secular ritual and find a song that we can all kind of unify behind. And so the Star Spangled Banner won out.

[Interviewer]

Many people know that Francis Scott Key was a slave owner.

[Anna Harwell Chilenza]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

A lot of people didn't know he was a prosecutor as well. And you write about one Supreme Court case he was involved In, United States vs Reuben Crandall. What is significant about this case?

[Anna Harwell Chilenza]

Well, what's significant about it is that you've got the abolition. He's an abolitionist. And basically, Francis Scott Key is saying you don't have the right to sort of voice those opinions when you're here in Washington, D.C. which was very strange. And yet at other times, if there were free black business owners, he would support them owning their businesses. It was really. He was kind of hypocritical.

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[Interviewer]

Did his personal politics affect public opinion of the Star Spangled Banner?

[Anna Harwell Chilenza]

Well, that's kind of a strange story because when it's really the Civil War, when the Star Spangled Banner sort of comes into its own. And what's strange about that is Francis Scott Key, all of his, you know, relatives, these many generations later, were basically for the south. And yet the south had to reject this song because it was about the flag, which was. And they were seceding from the Union. And then at the same time, you've got what became sort of the neck national anthem from the south, at least unofficially, which was Dixie. And yet that was written by a northerner who had written it to sort of make fun of the racist policies in the South. So go figure.

[Interviewer]

A large portion of that chapter deals with Lift Every Voice and Sing, often called the black national anthem. What makes it a meaningful alternative when talking about the political history of the national anthem?

[Anna Harwell Chilenza]

Well, I think the reason I put those two pieces in conversation is because I think we often kind of talk about the national anthem and then we see Lift Every Voice and Sing as this sort of separate thing. And if we really look at the history of those two pieces both had, they were both incredibly popular. Lift Every Voice and Sing is written around 1900. But what kind of keeps Lift Every Voice and Sing from being able to sort of spread across the country in the 1930s and the 40s was the fact that the print, the publisher of the song, held the copyright. And so when that song started to rise in popularity and was even being talked about by the composer James Johnson, that this could be a piece that could also perhaps serve as a national anthem. What you see is the publisher starts to charge really high fees to reprint or perform that music. And so you have the like a third character in this book is the music industry. And the music industry has, ever since the turn of the 20th century had a huge impact on the pieces that can. Can have an impact in those that can't.

[Interviewer]

I'm speaking to professor and musicologist Anna Harwell Chilenza. Her new book is called on the Record, Music that Changed America. And we're taking your calls. What's your favorite political song? Whether it influenced American history or just reflects on it, we want to know. 212-433-WNYC212. Someone has texted in Patti Smith's People have the Power. Let's talk to John is calling from Harrington Park, New Jersey. Hi, John, thank you for calling, all of it. You're on the air.

[Caller John]

How are you? Thanks for having me. You don't all know this one. Ohio by. It was written by Neil Young in response to the Kent State massacre. I think it's an extremely powerful and legendary American political song. And I think you know the story probably, I believe it was Neil Young went off into the woods after the incident, came back out with a song. And I believe it was within about three days later it was on the air.

[Interviewer]

Thank you for calling in, John. We got a text that says the song Move On Up A Little Bit Higher, sung by Mahalia Jackson, was an important anthem of the civil rights movement and an emblem of the great Migration. I want to go on to George Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue. It comes up in A few chapters. Why is Rhapsody in Blue important to US Congressional history?

[Anna Harwell Chilenza]

Because it got a lot of politicians to start thinking about intellectual property, and a lot of politicians in the 1920s, when that composition sort of took off, they sort of said, wow, we've found the American sound to sort of counteract, you know, European culture. And then we start to get these debates on, well, how do you protect that American sound? And for me, what I think is most important, this is another chapter that talks about Rhapsody and Blue, but talks about it in conversation with Duke Ellington and his Symphony in Black. And he and Gershwin sort of have a musical conversation over a number of decades and a number of pieces. And I think the power of Duke Ellington's music was to say there is not one American sound.

[Alison Stewart]

In 1963, Ellington recorded his own arrangement of Rhapsody in Blue before we listened to it. What does this recording demonstrate?

[Anna Harwell Chilenza]

Well, it demonstrates. Well, it demonstrates Ellington's respect for Gershwin, but at the same time, his desire to claim jazz and that jazz sound as not only an important piece, but as what inspired Gershwin to write his piece. And more importantly, he's kind of pushing back against Leonard Bernstein, who in 1958, did his own sort of interpretation of Rhapsody and Blue, where he made it very malarian and classical and slowed it down and switched out the saxophones for French horns and this sort of thing. And so I see this is Ellington kind of stepping back and saying, no, you know, jazz is really the core, or African American culture is really the core of a lot of things that we call American.

[Interviewer]

Let's listen to Rhapsody in Blue.

[Narrator for Song Clips]

Sam.

[Interviewer]

I'm speaking to professor and musicologist Anna Harwell Chilenza. Her new book is called on the Music that Changed America. While we're talking about jazz, in the chapter titled America's Secret Sonic Weapon, it deals with the State Department's use of music abroad. How has the United States used music as a diplomatic tool in history?

[Anna Harwell Chilenza]

Yeah, it was this great, powerful weapon. Well, what you see happening is we're in the middle of the civil rights era. The United States is. There's a lot of sort of negative press going around, especially coming from the USSR that, oh, well, we tout, you know, to have these ideas of freedom and democracy and equality. But look what is happening in the United States to African Americans. Look at the violence that's happening. Look at the civil rights uprisings that are happening. And so the United States first thought, well, if we could just show that we are cultured and we have art, then we can make a difference. They first Tried with classical music. It didn't really move the needle much. And then there was this understanding, well, wait, what about jazz? What if we send, you know, jazz is so popular in Europe and it's sort of taking off in other places. So what if we send jazz musicians? Dizzy Gillespie was the first to countries where communism has either taken over or is becoming a powerful force. And we can present jazz as a symbol of democracy. It's equality. Everyone gets to play a solo. But there's sort of rules that we agree to follow in creating this piece. And it was a incredibly powerful tool.

[Interviewer]

Let's talk about Strange Fruit. Most people know the song Strange Fruit as sung by Billie Holiday. Can you talk a little bit about the story behind the song and its writer, Abel Meeropol?

[Anna Harwell Chilenza]

Yeah. Abel Meeropol was lived right here in New York. He grew up in the Hell's Kitchen area. His parents were immigrants, he was Jewish. He was also a card carrying member of the Communist Party. And I should say, in the 1930s, for many people, Communism was not a negative thing. Communism was sort of government structure that focused on equality. So economic equality, racial equality, gender equality. And in the 1930s, right when the Star Spangled Banner becomes the national anthem and we have all this economic disparity because of what's happened with the Great Depression, another thing that happens is we get a real uptick in racial violence. Lynchings across the United States become. There's an uptick in them. We start to hear about them. In fact, every state in the United States, but three in the Northeast had a lynching in the 1930s. So it was this horrific thing that was happening. And Abel Meeropol by this point was teaching high school up in the Bronx. And he was seeing the impact this violence had on his students. And he was a poet, he was also very involved in theater. And he wrote this poem, originally titled Bitter Fruit, and published it in a teacher's magazine. Then that was in 1935. And in 37, he set some music to it. He was also a sort of amateur musician. And he and his wife would sing this song at Communist rallies. And then he met another Communist friend, Josephson, Barney Josephson, who had just opened this club in 1939 called Cafe Society here in New York. And it was the first racially integrated club in New York City. Billie Holiday was the house singer. And the idea was hatched, what if we got her to sing the song?

[Alison Stewart]

Let's hear a little bit of strange fruit.

[Narrator for Song Clips]

Southern cheese trees bears strange fruit Blood on leaves and blood at the roots Black bodies swinging in the southern breez Strange fruit hanging from the poplar tree.

[Interviewer]

At one point, the lyrics of this song were given to every U.S. senate member. Yes. What was the goal? A theater arts committee did this?

[Anna Harwell Chilenza]

Yes. What was the goal? Belonged to? The goal was to make them think about the horrific act of lynching. I should note, at this point in history, lynching was not a federal crime. So what was happening is that a lynching would happen. And then in the local district where it happened, people would never be prosecuted for. Took until 2022 for us to get an anti lynching federal law, the Emmett Till Anti Lynching act that Kamala Harris had first introduced. And what struck me, I remember when that happened because I had actually first written this chapter and it was about, isn't it horrific that we've never passed legislation? And I remember watching on television and then scrolling on social media as Biden signed the Emmett Till Anti Lynching Act. And on social media everybody started posting recordings of strange fruit. And just the power that this song from 1939 until 2022, it took a while, but the seeds took root when that legislation was passed.

[Interviewer]

Let's talk to John, who's calling in from New York. John, you're on the air.

[Caller John from New York]

Okay, very quickly, I don't know if this is completely appropriate, but political songs, one that I heard recently, I hadn't heard in a long, long time, which I thought was real rallying cry, is this simple song of freedom by Bobby Darin, of all people. And I don't know if people are familiar with it, but give it a listen. It was basically about we don't want a war kind of song. And it'd be very appropriate, I think now.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. John, thank you so much for calling in. We've gotten a ton of calls and a ton of texts about it. So I'm going to just say, read this one. It says, what's Going on by Marvin Gaye, very powerful song.

[Anna Harwell Chilenza]

And I talk about that.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, tell me more.

[Anna Harwell Chilenza]

So I will note. So there's a chapter about protest songs. And anytime I've talked to people about this project, that these are musical works that influence Congress, people go, oh, well, then it must be. You're writing all about protest songs. And what's interesting about protest songs is they are incredibly powerful. They give us a sense of unity, especially if we're at an event or we're seeing them together or the lyrics, if we really focus on them, they make us very aware of a situation. Interestingly, Congress does not pay a lot of Attention to protest songs. And so I think unless they're sort of forced to, like with Strange Fruit, Marvin Gaye's song is amazing in a couple of ways. One is when you listen to the music, it just makes you feel so good. It's very laid back and it sort of has this groove. And even more importantly, it opens with the sound of people on the street talking and hanging out. So you get that feeling of community, even if you're listening to the song alone in your room. And then the next powerful thing is the title. What's Going on is not a question. There's not a question mark. So he is just stating, this is what's going on. You know, people are dying, people are crying. You know, there's a lot of violence happening. But because the music is so. Has such a beautiful, like, feel good groove, it is a song that says, despite all these things that are happening, there is hope that it will get better. That music, the music, just the pure music element helps us kind of tap into what's human. And I think that's what. What's super powerful about that piece.

[Interviewer]

Let's hear what's going on in Marvin Gaye.

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[Anna Harwell Chilenza]

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[Alison Stewart]

we're talking about the new book on the record, Music that Changed America. My guess is Professor Anna Harwell Chilenza. Before we run out of time, I want to get to musical theater. Two pieces of musical theater get their own chapters in the book. West side Story and Hamilton. Of all the music theater out there, what make these two works stand out?

[Anna Harwell Chilenza]

Politicians talk about them. So Kennedy, when he was running, when JFK was running for office, he never really talked about juvenile delinquency or crime and youth and this sort of thing. And then a couple of months into becoming president, suddenly he puts together this task force and he's really talking about juvenile delinquency. And how do we make sure that, you know, kids are protected and they get what they need. Social things. And people were going, where did that come from? And one of his assistants, you know, they asked one of his assistants, one of his lawyers, like, what made Kennedy suddenly get so interested in this? And he said, west side Story. So that the way that musical looks at juvenile delinquency, as far as the jets go, the white gang, there was a lot. It made a lot of people think about sort of how we're treating our youth that being said, it is also a musical that can have some real negative things. I would say stereotypes of Puerto Ricans or considering Puerto Rico not part of America. That is, those negative stereotypes were only reinforced all the more in that musical. Mainly just I think, because it was a quick choice to. Oh, let's do. I mean, originally west side Story was called east side Story and it was about Jewish folks and Catholic folks, you know, kind of having a conflict. So there was that quick switch out to suddenly make it Puerto Rico. They didn't really do their research. They didn't really get to know communities so that they could really engage them in a three dimensional way.

[Interviewer]

The book is called on the Music that Changed America. My guest has been professor musicologist Anna Harwell Chilenza. She'll be at PNT Knitwear tonight. Thank you for being with us.

[Anna Harwell Chilenza]

Thank you so much. And Dessa will be with me.

[Alison Stewart]

And Dessa will be with you tonight. Let's go out on a little bit of Hamilton. This is history has its eyes on you.

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