Nathan Crowley on Designing the 'Wicked' Sets (The Big Picture)

Summary

Podcast Summary: All Of It – Nathan Crowley on Designing the 'Wicked' Sets (The Big Picture)

Episode Release Date: February 18, 2025
Host: Alison Stewart
Guest: Nathan Crowley, Oscar-Nominated Production Designer
Podcast: All Of It by WNYC

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1. Introduction to Nathan Crowley and His Work on "Wicked"

In this engaging episode of All Of It, host Alison Stewart welcomes Nathan Crowley, an esteemed production designer nominated for an Oscar for his work on the film adaptation of Wicked. Nathan brings a wealth of experience from his previous projects, including The Greatest Showman, The Dark Knight, Interstellar, and Dunkirk. Alison sets the stage by highlighting Crowley's commitment to practical set designs over relying solely on CGI, emphasizing the authentic and nostalgic feel he aims to instill in his work.

Notable Quote:
Nathan Crowley reflects on his design philosophy:
"We have to intertwine practical sets with CGI to achieve that old-school feeling and ensure the audience feels the originality." ([00:50])

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2. Practical Sets vs. CGI: The Design Philosophy

Crowley elaborates on his preference for practical sets, explaining that tangible environments allow for a more immersive and believable experience for the audience. He argues that while CGI offers flexibility, it can sometimes disconnect viewers from the narrative. By blending practical constructions with digital effects, Crowley ensures that the sets feel real and engaging.

Notable Quote:
"The balance between practical sets and CGI was essential to keep the audience immersed without being jarred by too much digital intervention." ([01:59])

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3. Impact on Actors and Audience Experience

Nathan discusses how practical sets enhance the performance of actors, particularly younger ones who may not be accustomed to acting in entirely digital environments. The physical presence of elaborate sets, like animatronic figures, allows actors to interact more naturally with their surroundings, resulting in more authentic performances.

Notable Quote:
"With practical sets, actors can experience a fully realized environment, which helps them deliver more genuine performances." ([02:49])

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4. Collaboration with Director John Chu

The conversation shifts to Crowley's collaboration with director John Chu. Nathan emphasizes the importance of spending extensive time together to merge their visions for the film. This collaborative process involves deeply understanding the narrative and translating it into visual elements that complement the story.

Notable Quote:
"Spending days or weeks together is crucial to find the visual language of the film and ensure our visions align seamlessly." ([04:32])

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5. Challenges in Designing "Wicked's" Sets

Designing the expansive worlds of Wicked posed significant challenges. Crowley recounts the complexities of creating Shiz University and Emerald City, highlighting the logistical hurdles of building such large-scale sets. He candidly shares the difficulties of maintaining budget constraints while striving for elaborate and innovative designs.

Notable Quote:
"Building Shiz was the most challenging both design-wise and logistically, especially with the sheer scale we were aiming for." ([06:37])

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6. The Tulip Project: 9 Million Tulips for the Meadows

One of the standout segments of the episode delves into the ambitious project of planting 9 million tulips to bring the Meadows to life. Crowley explains the logistical nightmare and creative process behind sourcing the bulbs from Holland and planting them in time for the shoot. This initiative demonstrates his dedication to creating visually stunning and authentic landscapes without solely relying on digital enhancements.

Notable Quote:
"We needed to buy 9 million bulbs to fill the fields, which was a monumental task, but it brought the vibrant visuals we envisioned." ([17:45])

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7. Designing Glinda and Elphaba's Dorm Room

Nathan discusses the intricate design of the dorm room shared by Glinda and Elphaba, aiming to reflect their contrasting personalities while cohabitating. He describes the decision to make the room circular to avoid feeling restrictive and the use of practical effects to support choreography and stage movements during performances.

Notable Quote:
"Making the room circular allowed us to frame the space dynamically, accommodating both the actors' performances and the set's aesthetic." ([21:02])

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8. Nathan Crowley's Background and Design Approach

Crowley shares insights into his career trajectory, from his early days as a set designer and art director to his pivotal role in films like Hook and Braveheart. He attributes much of his problem-solving skills and positive approach to Barry Levinson, who mentored him on An Everlasting Peace. Nathan emphasizes the importance of a designer's voice in collaborative environments and the necessity of fluid thinking to overcome challenges.

Notable Quote:
"Design is about fluid thinking and solving problems positively, turning challenges into creative opportunities." ([14:56])

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9. Insights and Conclusions

Throughout the interview, Nathan Crowley provides a comprehensive look into the meticulous and passionate approach required in production design. From balancing practical sets with CGI to managing large-scale projects like the tulip fields, Crowley's expertise shines through. His dedication to authenticity and immersive storytelling underscores the critical role of production design in enriching the cinematic experience.

Notable Quote:
"Cinema is about losing yourself in the film. If our sets help the audience get lost in Oz for over two hours, we've done our job." ([03:45])

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Final Thoughts

This episode of All Of It offers a fascinating glimpse into the world of production design through the eyes of Nathan Crowley. His commitment to creating believable and enchanting environments for Wicked not only enhances the visual storytelling but also deepens the audience's emotional connection to the narrative. For anyone interested in the behind-the-scenes artistry of filmmaking, this conversation is both enlightening and inspiring.

Transcript

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[Nathan Crowley]

Listener Support WNYC Studios.

[Alison Stewart]

You are listening to all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. In the new Wicked film adaptation, Glinda and Elphaba go on a journey to meet the wizard of Oz. And now let's meet the wizard behind the film's detailed, practical, yet fantastical set design. Nathan Crowley is nominated at this year's Oscars for his Wicked production design. He's previously worked on films like the Greatest Showman, the Dark Knight, Interstellar, Dunkirk and more. Instead of just relying on just cgi, Crowley and his team built the sets for Emerald City, Shiz University and Glinda and Elphaba's dorm room. And yes, it's true, they did plant 9 million tulips for for the Meadows. Nathan Crowley is with us now from the uk, fresh off his BAFTA win on Sunday. He's here as part of our Oscar series, the Big Picture, where we spotlight talent nominated for their work behind the camera. Welcome, Nathan.

[Nathan Crowley]

Hi, nice to meet you.

[Alison Stewart]

Alison, nice to meet you as well. And congratulations on the BAFTA win by the way.

[Nathan Crowley]

It was a fantastic evening.

[Alison Stewart]

I'm not sure that people really understand how many practical sets you used. Why was it important to you in the film?

[Nathan Crowley]

I think. Well, first of all, I sort of come from films where we do things practically. I don't think a lot of people know that we tend not to advertise it that much. But on this film we were moving into fantasy and it was really important to not solely rely on cgi, because I think audiences feel that. So we have to intertwine it with practical sets. And that's really to get sort of an old school feeling. It changes the look when you build it for real, you extend it with CGI, but you go as high as you can to 50 foot and you try and interweave it so the audience, you know, feels the sort of originality or the nostalgia of the set rather than being popped out of the the experience by too much cgi. So the balance was essential.

[Alison Stewart]

What does it do for the actors to be on a CGI set? I mean, on a non CGI set, on a practical set.

[Nathan Crowley]

Well, what's amazing, especially with younger actors, you, they, you know, they're not used to seeing fully realized. That's. And so, you know, we also, you know, we have animatronic puppeteers and we did the big wizards head physically and it was, you know, it's 15 foot high. It could, it was all animatronics. I could have expressions that, when that came out of the curtain, I think we really, we got, we got Glinda and Alphabet a jump. But you should. Because, you know, the, you know, the theory behind that is he tries to intimidate people. So you, you want it to be surprising and you want the audience to sort of sit back in their seats as well.

[Alison Stewart]

So I was going to ask then, what, what does the, the theater goer gets from practical sets?

[Nathan Crowley]

Well, hopefully they feel like they believe. I mean, as a designer, your ultimate task is to a little bit go unnoticed and let the audience sink into Oz and the story and the narrative. So if we can put them there in that place without them questioning it. To me, we, we, we've done our job in cinema. You know, to me, cinema is about falling into the film and losing yourself for however long the film runs. And so can we keep you lost in Oz for over two hours? You know, and that's, to me, that's the job.

[Alison Stewart]

You obviously work with director John Chu. What ideas did you have when you first read the script and you first talked to him?

[Nathan Crowley]

Well, how did it work? He phoned. We had a long chat on a Zoom call. And then Mark Platt got involved and they asked me to come out to L. A and spend a few days with John. I think, I think we were. I think that process of a designer and director is you spend days or weeks together and you try and find visually the film. He has a script, he, he has ideas of what he's looking to do and what kind of sort of wondrous, whimsical world he's got John wanted. But I need to now sit with him and take that, that vision of that film he's running in his head and I need to put it into mine and then get the visuals going. So it's about spending time with people because we're all just searching. We're searching for the film. You know, it doesn't like, oh, this is the way we're going to do it abcd. It's like you're kind of investigating it. Like you're investigating Oz. You're investigating Wicked, the stage show. Your, you know, you're investigating the fact that it's an American fairy tale and we need Americana. And what, what, what, what are those images? Like the train is an American image, you know, in the giant bar flat barley fields. We planted those as well.

[Alison Stewart]

Oh, yeah, we're going to get to the barley. We got. We got a lot to discuss.

[Nathan Crowley]

You're looking at the themes. You know, you're looking for visual themes. And we, we work like, like the writers work in a writer's room where they put up scenes and, you know, and they try and find the jigsaw puzzle of the story. We do the same, but with visuals. We try and find common threads and themes and ideas by putting images on the wall in scene order. And you try and run a film as a sort of. As a sort of visual, you know, storyboard. So it's pretty exciting stuff. When you're in those rooms, it's. You lose hours and hours because you're. You're lost in a visual process, and that's engaging.

[Alison Stewart]

What was challenging, what was a scene that was particularly challenging for you as a production designer on Wicked? And he's laughing at me.

[Nathan Crowley]

It was a challenge. I mean, I've done a lot of big films and this was by far the most. The biggest and most challenging. And I sort of set. You know, I made my own problems by saying I want to build as much as practically, and. And that caused problems for my crew. So I think physically, Shiz was probably the toughest design wise, sort of mentally, design wise. Emerald City was the trickiest because it's a very difficult image to sort of find a new look for. But Shiz, because we've decided, you know, when we're in those rooms, we say, okay, how do you get to Shizu? You know, you can't go by horse and cart because you're stepping on the freedom of the animals. And that's part of the narrative. You can't go by balloon because the wizard owns that. You can't go by mechanical clockwork train because the wizard owns that as well. You know, you can't go back. There's no cars in Oz. So you end up with an obvious thing. It's like, oh, rivers. We go on rip, we go by river. We gotta. We gotta get Glinda and all the other students into. Into shiz by river and boat. So if you're a practical filmmaker, you Go find a river and then you go and build a boat, an Aussie boat. And you get a journey and, and that to me is cinema. That journey is the start of dear old shiz, you know, and you've got to go in through the archway and the problem with then you go in through the archway and you realize we've got to build a backlot that has a water tank in it. So you, you create your own. So then you've got to build a giant water tank and then you've got to build the set in the water tank and then you have to, then you have to figure out how we're going to shoot it because the camera crew is like, how are we going to shoot this?

[Alison Stewart]

You know, looks real pretty. How do, how do we do it?

[Nathan Crowley]

So I mean we've built, I've built water tanks before, not this size. And I can tell you this, there is no water tank in film that doesn't leak. So I mean at the same time you're like, you're with, I'm with my construction team of 20 years and it's like, okay, we're going to try and attempt this and that. They get excited and they go, okay, how are we doing the physics of that and the mechanics? And then you've got special effects coming in and they're saying, well, how can we do this and how can we move this? How can we rotate bookshelves, you know. But it's excites everyone. No one is bored on that set.

[Alison Stewart]

My guest is Nathan Crowley, Oscar nominated for Wicked. He is a production designer. He's here as part of our installment the Big Picture series where we speak to Oscar nominated talent who work behind the camera. How big was your team?

[Nathan Crowley]

Well, he sort of, it goes up and down depending on the we. The way you build is you sort of build up to the backlogs which are the largest sets. And then we had three of those. So you, you, you step up in crew member, then you come back down. So the exact number I can tell you at one point we had a thousand construction, a thousand members of the construction team working on the three back lots. And you can't do that for very long because your budget is burnt. So you have like, it's, it takes an enormous amount of organization. It's actually the problem with big filmmaking is you, it's the same, I guess in any industry. You get end up with a lot of management. It becomes its own problem in an odd way.

[Alison Stewart]

That was actually one of my questions. You would think it was an endless budget. But all budgets have an end.

[Nathan Crowley]

No. And you try and get. We don't go over budget. And so you try and get right to the edge of it. But trying to use all the money, probably, and get it on film and keep it within the target is. Is. Is a. It's. It's difficult. And you. You have to make hard decisions on that road. Like, I remember the Emerald City was the final backlot we built. And after Shears, my construction manager, Paul Hayes, said to me, I think we spent too much on Shears. We're going to have to make some cuts.

[Alison Stewart]

The Emerald City you get.

[Nathan Crowley]

Yeah, it was like, no, we can't. We can't on the Emerald City. And then we both said, well, we have an enormous amount of scenery because it's the last set. Like, let's get it all. Let's go and look at it all and see if we can repurpose, you know, some of it. And, like, can we jigsaw puzzle this so we don't have to build certain things? And so, you know, it's like fluid thinking, you know?

[Alison Stewart]

Yeah, you shopped your closet.

[Nathan Crowley]

Yeah, we recycled everything.

[Alison Stewart]

When you were thinking about the production design of Wicked, you obviously have to think about the wizard of Oz and that universe and as you said, the Americana of it all. What was your original relationship with the wizard of Oz?

[Nathan Crowley]

Just. I grew up in London and every once a year, you know, at Christmas, I'd watch the wizard of Oz every Christmas. So probably like many kids. And so I kind of knew that film pretty intimately. And to sort of take on the 39 film and really put, you know, because it was done with backings very cleverly on a sound, the MGM style sound stages. It might be in the Warner sound stages anyway, it doesn't matter. To push into that backing and cross through the backing into Emerald City was really the. The challenge. It's like I want to. I want to get off the Arabic road. I want to physically go into Emerald City. I mean, Wicked, the. The play obviously has. Shears has some. Some, you know, different scenery that the wizard of Oz doesn't have.

[Alison Stewart]

Did you do research into the making of the wizard of Oz or. Or even Wicked?

[Nathan Crowley]

I obviously went to see Wizards. Sorry, Wicked. Many, many times. The wizard of Oz, I kind of. I. I sort of started in the film industry at Warner Brothers and mgm, the old mgm, which is now Sony. So I. I love the history of those sound stages. So I always used to. I used to go and look at them and look at what was shot in there and you. And you. And so I, I sort of had the research in my head, if that makes sense. Because it always, I mean, it was always there, you know, and there's a, there's, there's an interesting thing about the old MGM lot, which is obviously where they did a lot of great musicals is all the stages are different sizes. And that's because you build different sets and they, you have a requirement and nowadays all the stages are the same size, which I, it's like I never understood. It's like, well, you might want to get really high or really low, you know. So anyway, that's. Sorry I went off.

[Alison Stewart]

That's okay. How did you get your start in production design?

[Nathan Crowley]

I. Where was I? I was living in Los Angeles and I had been a set designer, then an art director. I was lucky enough to start on Hook, which kind of has a weird relevance to this. But I was just a draftsman. And then my production design start was really. When I went, I lived, I moved to Ireland. I said, well, I went to Ireland to make Braveheart as an art director and I stayed there. And Barry Levinson hired me on a very small film he was doing there as the production designer. So that's. Barry Levinson actually was the one who got me started on a film called An Everlasting Peace, which is sort of the play on. On wigs.

[Alison Stewart]

Well, what did you learn from an everlasting piece that has stuck with you as a production designer?

[Nathan Crowley]

You have to have a voice in the room and you have to have. You have to have a voice in the room and you have to have sort of ideas and you have to, you have to sort of look and see and think. It's a very sort of design is for me is about like fluid thinking. It's like, how are we going to solve that? It's not about negativity, it's about positivity and solving problems. And I think that Barry taught me how to. How you could see a problem, just look at it differently. So I think that's, you know, that's where that's how it started. Really?

[Alison Stewart]

That's interesting. You said problems and puzzles.

[Nathan Crowley]

Yeah.

[Alison Stewart]

I sense that, that you do a lot of that.

[Nathan Crowley]

Yeah. The puzzle is, is the, like, how, you know, how are we going to do. How are we going to build 100 foot train and run it for a barley field? You know, it's like, you'll sit around with my team is like, okay, what's that train look like? You know, who is the wizard? He's an illusionist. You know what, what mechanics do, do illusionists have inside? If you go back to, you know, the late 1800s, you have automatons and you look at the orange tree and the orange tree was a watchmaking. It was, it seemed to come to life just mechanics. And so that feeds back into who the wizard is. He's more than illusion. He's more than the man behind the curtain. He has a sort of a automaton, sort of clockwork technology. And then you push that back into the train. Because we don't just want a steam train. You want, you want the wizards train. And so you have to find a way into that design and how you can manipulate the themes or the story to help you give him technology. And then you apply that to the head where he's got those cranks in the film and he's pulling all those levers and that operates his mechanical head. So it's kind of. Does that make sense?

[Alison Stewart]

Yes. But it's interesting because it does come from the character.

[Nathan Crowley]

Yeah, everything comes from the script. So you, you. I guess that's what I was saying early on. I kind of want John to put his version of, of the script into my head so we can then take his characters and the way, what he wants from the film and push it back into design and see if we can find themes. Like the tulips were all the colors of the rainbow. You know, you have to work back from what is, what do we want to gain from color? And it's like, well, all the colors of the rainbows, like, what can we grow? And then you immediately go to tulips. So you sort of work your way back to the idea, if that makes sense.

[Alison Stewart]

All right, let's talk about those 9 million tulips you planted. I swear I, I researched it, I put it in Google. Like 9 million. You planted 9 million tulips leading up to Emerald City. Logistically, how does one get 9 million tulips?

[Nathan Crowley]

Well, you need 9 million bulbs from Holland and so.

[Alison Stewart]

And there are none in Holland anymore.

[Nathan Crowley]

Yeah, but they, I mean, it's sort of like, how did that come about? I remember we were in meetings and it was like, we shouldn't do this digitally. And there was a push. It's like, well, how else are you going to do it? It's like, well, we could grow them. And the only reason I worked on Interstellar and we grew 500 acres of corn for the film. And so I. Which was nerve wracking, but I knew it could be done. So If I applied that experience to, to Wicked, I could then grow tulips. And then my location manager, Adam, is like, can you find me a farmer, a tulip farmer we can go and talk to? And so Mark, the tulip farmer, was brilliant. He's saying, okay, we're going to have to buy 9 million. Well, actually, I, I thought he said 1 million, which I thought was a lot, but I sort of misheard him because I showed him the kind of area we needed and we found a location to do it. And I said, I need to fill this amount of fields. And I thought he said a million. So I went back to the producers and said, we need to buy a million bulbs immediately from Holland for this. We need to write a check. Which they did. And then. But when. When I went back to see him, he said, yeah, I got to get those 9 million bulbs into the ground before the ground freezes. And I said, what? And anyway, so that's how 9 million came up. But really it was based on the size of the fields I needed to fill.

[Alison Stewart]

What went through your brain when you heard the word 9 million, when you thought it was 1 million?

[Nathan Crowley]

I got a bit worried because it's like, oh, my God. I told everyone it was 1 million. The location manager, I said, should we tell them? I think I told John Chew and he was so happy it was nine and not one. He was. He's a very excitable, brilliant man. So he was like, he's good.

[Alison Stewart]

Nine's great. Nine's the best.

[Nathan Crowley]

Well, sometime later I asked the farmer, Mark. I said, yeah, that was. You came to 9 million? He said, well, yeah, no, I thought we needed 12. And it kept on growing. It was very abstract, I guess, farming.

[Alison Stewart]

So my guest is Nathan Crowley. He's Oscar nominated for Wicked in production design. It's part of our big picture series where you look at the talent behind the camera. Let's talk about a little bit of a smaller scope. The dorm room between Elphaba and Glinda. It's so interesting. How did you telegraph that these two are going to be living together, but clearly not in harmony.

[Nathan Crowley]

Well, so that was a difficult set as well because we have a huge song number to do in there. Popular. And so we had to make. It can't be a small dorm room. It needs to be part of shiz. It needs the character. It needs some romantic character to. It needs some feminine qualities. So, you know, it was. It was a difficult start. So I knew that I had to make the room circular. It wasn't circular. It was elliptical at the end, but I knew if I made it circular, the camera wouldn't feel the restriction of the space. And we could frame up the two little sort of half moon pockets we made for their bed. I knew we could sort of make it feel small or big, but not get bored of the space. And then if we put enough decoration in. So the, one of the, one of the one thing we do as designers, we go and we look at, look at places, not necessarily to shooting because we know we're going to build that. You know we're going to build that set, but to get inspiration and play out a scene in a real space and see how we feel about it. And the Brighton Pavilion, which is down on the south coast of England, I knew pretty well because I went to art school down there. And it was built by the Prince Regent, which is this sort of crazy Taj Mahal sort of Chinese influence palace. I mean, it's the only piece of architecture, I think, in England that is Aussie. So we stood in there and we went up to the sort of, to the sort of the crazy onion domes at the top. We got a little private tour and it's like, okay, the room needs to be elliptical. It's got to be in one of these domes. And that was the start of it. And then, and then we work with the choreographer and John because they're, they're figuring out a huge dance scene, so we have to work side by side. So we had a rehearsal stage for the dancers, and then we had a, a rehearsal stage with a rough layout of what might be the set in plywood. And then, then we had the real stage where we're building the real set. And as the three sort of came together, we would adjust and manipulate the set to work for the action. Because in popular, there's these trunks and the, there's hydraulics, and those are all practical effects. And under, you know, so you have to lift the set six feet off the ground on a rostrum and you've got all this hydraulics underneath popping up clothes and racks and shoes and makeup, you know, it's all done from underneath. I mean, it's sort of a stage show within, within itself. So. So you need everyone to come together. And having a sort of physical mock up of a set that you can change, I think is essential in a musical.

[Alison Stewart]

We got a text here that says, what happened to all those tulips?

[Nathan Crowley]

Yeah, well, okay, here's the thing I learned about tulip farming and this is why it's kind of great fun because you go and hang out with tulip farmers and you learn about something you would have never known about. So you don't actually, you don't use the flowers from the bulbs you put in the ground. You plant them and then when they get to a certain size, you chop all the heads off and then the energy goes down into the bulb and makes it bigger. And then you end up with a bigger bulb the following year you put into a greenhouse and that's the flower you grow to sell. So and that's why you have tulip festivals, because you cut all the heads off the flowers and they put them all on the floats and you know, so of course I didn't know this and the farmer was doing these sketches for me. He's like, oh, the bulb starts here and it goes to this big. And then we put it, you know, it's like going back to farming school. So actually the bulbs all got lifted and went into greenhouses to make flower big, better tulips for the market.

[Alison Stewart]

Who knew? Nathan Crowley is Oscar nominated for production design for Wicked. It was a joy to speak with you. Thank you so much for spending time with us.

[Nathan Crowley]

Thanks, Alison.

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