Lulu (2:55)

Well, I think we all look forward to the holidays and we try and cram in everything that has gone on for the previous 12 months, especially with people we have not seen for 12 months. So it can be a very intense time. And some people change a lot over that time, especially young folks. But old folks and middle aged folks can be changing jobs, losing spouses, picking up new friends and so on. And a lot can have happened between the previous year and the time that you're seeing somebody. So there may be a huge buildup and you come into the Thanksgiving venue and spill out all this stuff with certain expectations about being heard and also what you're going to hear. And the problem with that is that it always falls short of what some, you know, unusually high expectation is. So lower your expectations about trying to get stuff done with family members over a piece of turkey.

Dr. Jeffrey Greif (4:04)

Some people, they tend to regress sort of back to a childhood version of themselves when they head home. Why do people do that?

Lulu (4:12)

Well, I'm the youngest of three children, for example, and do my brother and sister still treat me like I'm the youngest of three children or have they come to accept who I think I am as, as an adult? So it's not just though on them, do I act like the youngest when I come home and draw that kind of pre 20 year old behavior from them? So families are systems and one piece of behavior from one sibling, for example, can draw a complementary reaction from other siblings. So it's a matter of trying to understand who you are now and not falling into who you once were.

Dr. Jeffrey Greif (4:57)

You describe something that is very important for people. One of your tips is that you should keep your routines the same. You should eat, drink, exercise like normal. Explain why that's important.

Lulu (5:10)

It's hard to go to someone else's house or go out of town and drop what you need to do to maintain yourself. So the way to be with other people is first of all to be with yourself. Understand what you need to do. Don't drink or smoke too much and don't go to excess just because you're on a holiday. I think you'll feel better about who you are by centering yourself first before you open yourself up, maybe to be vulnerable with family members. Part of the reason we get together is to be open and get to know people in new ways. But you have to hold on to a part of who you are in order to do that more effectively.

Dr. Jeffrey Greif (5:53)

You also recommend letting things go when possible. Easier said than done.

Lulu (5:59)

Easier said than done, Especially given the elections of A few weeks ago.

Dr. Jeffrey Greif (6:03)

Why is it so critical to learn how to let something go?

Lulu (6:08)

I'm not going to convince my nephew or my niece or my, you know, in law that so and so was right or wrong at the election and there's nothing they can do probably to convince me that I was incorrect with who I supported in the election. So I'm not open to being changed about that kind of stuff. And I have to realize other people who are adults have probably thought about their positions and are not going to be open. So I'm going to try and avoid certain talks and maybe even have a timeout sign of I'll put up a T and say, you know, peace, let's not bother to open this door. Let's talk about something that's going to get us to a better, healthier, happier place.

Dr. Jeffrey Greif (6:53)

What if you're one of these people and you do want to engage in political discussion at the table? What are some guidance you can give people if they do really want to engage in this back and forth?

Lulu (7:03)

It's a great question. I think the answer is listen, listen and listen. And don't try and talk over somebody. Try and offer it in a non confrontational way. Try and offer it with humor. If you're doing therapy and you're working with couples that are fighting, the way to intervene is to try and stop the pattern, but to do it with love and humor so that what you say is more likely to be accepted and the conversation can then move on. So listen to what the other person's saying. They probably have a good reason for their, in my opinion, wrong beliefs.

Alison Stewart (7:42)

When do you know it's time to walk away from one of those conversations?

Lulu (7:47)

You're keeping track of your own feelings. And when I get into discussions around, especially around diversity, it gets me very upset because I have a lot of very close friends that come from diverse backgrounds and when hurtful things are said about them, I have to figure out how do I step away from this and maintain my own integrity, yet support them. So there's always that balance. You can't let oppressive things go unchallenged, can't let racist statements, for example, go unbalanced, go unresponded to. And it's a matter of figuring out how do I maintain who I am, love and respect for those that I know outside of my family, but also realize I'm part of a family and families are made up of people that may not exactly march the same drummer that I do.

Alison Stewart (8:46)

My guest is psychologist and University of Maryland School of Social Work. Professor Jeffrey Greif.

Dr. Jeffrey Greif (8:51)

We're speaking about how to handle difficult.

Alison Stewart (8:53)

Family dynamics over the holidays. Listeners we do would love to hear from you. What family dynamics are you most worried about this Thanksgiving?

Dr. Jeffrey Greif (9:00)

Maybe you'd like some guidance on how.

Alison Stewart (9:02)

To navigate a sibling feud or a father in law you maybe don't like or maybe you are worried about politics. Our phone number is 2124-339692-21243.

Dr. Jeffrey Greif (9:13)

WNYC.

Alison Stewart (9:14)

Let's talk to Joan who's calling in from Oakland, New Jersey. Hi, Joan, thank you so much for.

Dr. Jeffrey Greif (9:18)

Calling, all of it.

Joan (9:20)

No, thank you.

Dr. Jeffrey Greif (9:22)

You're on the air.

Joan (9:25)

Oh, hey, Joan. Hey. So our issue already started. My son was down for a visit from Massachusetts for two days at my daughter's house with his three young children under the age of 11. And the first night went well. And last night was, you know, my son in law set it up with nasty snipes against my daughter, who's his wife, in front of the children. And my son, my son kept his cool, just wanted to get through the night. He actually almost left for a hotel with his kids because no one wants their kids to be in some kind of situation, you know. And yeah, my son in law just had to make crack after crack after crack. And I mean everybody, I left by 7pm so my thing is I really don't want to go back. I feel bad for my daughter. I have hypertension. I've been sucking medication for two days and all night I'm good today. I don't want to go back there for Thanksgiving. And I've made it known that, you know, I don't know, you know, I. Yeah. So that's it.

Dr. Jeffrey Greif (10:45)

You sound like you have a tough situation. What if you just you don't want to go back for Thanksgiving but your family is expecting you? Dr. Greif?

Lulu (10:54)

Yeah, I think that's a really tough situation when you're unhappy with the way your son in law in this case is treating your daughter. So that in and of itself is extremely upsetting. I have two daughters and I'd be upset if I thought they're married to men, if I thought that they weren't being well treated. Part of my advice, and it may not land, it depends how it lands based on what anybody is going through is to think about how do they want to view themselves in this relationship. That's what you have control over, how you want to perceive yourself, how you want to act in relation to other people. Do I want to be a person who is confrontational and will speak up for my daughter. Do I feel that's not the right position to be in? Do I feel like I'm going to be a better mother to my daughter? If I say I understand this may be a tough time? How can I support you? What would you like from me at this time? I think working through your daughter and supporting her is probably the best way to approach her husband with whom she has to live for a longer time. There's something else that happens with parents in law and children in law, and I am a father in law and I've been a son in law, is you can't unring the bell, as they say. If I make some comment to my son in law or to my father in law when he was alive, that's always going to be heard and I have to be very careful about that. So I have to think about who do I see myself as and how can I achieve the best version of myself to be loving and supportive to my daughter, to my grandchildren? I have to be building a relationship with them and I'm role modeling for at least the four of them. How to move forward in life with conflict. So, Joan, I'm sorry I can't give you more than that, but that's part of what I would want to be thinking about.

Alison Stewart (13:07)

That's good advice, Joan. We wish you well. Let's talk to Paul, who's calling in from Midtown. Hi Paul, thanks so much for calling, all of it.

Paul (13:15)

Hi, thank you for having me. Here's my thing is that I was at a family gathering in Ohio and New York, blue state and a red state. And I was told by one of my family members we're not talking politics. And I looked at my sister in law and I said, that's you, that's not me. Because I think that being in America and being Democratic means that I get to voice and I get to discuss. And I really believe that America is based on that discussion. And so I believe that people should talk about issues. There are two dinosaurs in the room here and it's Republican, Democrat, right, liberal, not liberal, whatever you want to call them. And we have beliefs and we have deep, deep moral beliefs in all those positions. But when you come down to it, I'm not going to badmouth Kamala or Donald or whoever. I'm going to talk about issues because that's our government and our government starts in our families and what we believe. So my whole point is I am not going to be silenced because the silence is deadly. It's just like in a personal relationship, the silence is deadly. I come from a family where we screamed at each other, hollered at each other, and made a lot of ruckus. But all I know is this, that the silence is more deadly. That's all I have to say.

Dr. Jeffrey Greif (14:45)

Thanks for your call. On the flip side, we got a text that says, I am very relieved that this year we're having a quiet.

Alison Stewart (14:50)

Thanksgiving instead of a large family gathering.

Dr. Jeffrey Greif (14:52)

Because the divide in our family over politics has gotten worse in the era of Trump and it would be literally.

Alison Stewart (14:57)

Impossible to have a civil meal together. Two different sides of the story.

Lulu (15:04)

Yeah, I'm struck by them both. I think that Paul makes a very good point about understanding the culture of one's family. If you're raised in a family that has a culture of we're going to talk it out, we're going to scream, we're going to shout, we're going to love each other, but everything gets put on the table. Having those conversations is going to be more comfortable than having that conversation in a quiet family or more closed off family. So we all come from different, you know, types of families. And if you were raised in a family where we can scream at each other and then go ahead and have fun together, but that's how we live, that kind of political discussion is going to land better than if we're raised in families that are more quiet and people tend to be more insular and go their own way. And maybe, you know, I come from a family that's more on the quiet side and being able to say, let's just agree to not talk about it might work for me, but it may not work for anybody else or in someone else's family. So I'd look at the family culture to see how is this going to land. And if I'm an in law joining a family, how much of it do I bring my own style? How much of it do I respect the style or join the style of the family that I've married into and figuring out how to position myself to be true to myself, but also to be respectful and accepting that I've joined a new culture or a new family.

Alison Stewart (16:41)

We'll follow up on that issue of joining new families as well as setting boundaries with Dr. Jeffrey Greif. And we'll take more of Your calls at 2124-3396-9221-2433. WNYC After a quick break.

WNYC Studios (16:55)

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Alison Stewart (17:37)

This is all of it on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. My guest is Dr. Jeffrey Greif, psychologist and University of Maryland School of Social Work professor. We're talking about how to handle difficult family dynamics over the holidays. We'd love to hear from you. What are your family dynamics that you're a little worried about this Thanksgiving? 2124-339692-12433, wnyc. You can text to us or you can join the conversation on air. 2124-3396-9221-2433-WNYC. Dr. Greif, you say over the holidays that for new couples, their family of origin might have to accept being rejected to a degree. What do you mean?

Lulu (18:22)

Part of the trajectory for us all in life if we decide to partner with somebody else is we grow up and a new family in quotes. And that can quotes can be small or large and have a relationship with that partner. How do we do that and stay loyal to our families of origin and to the partners families of origin. And so there are in fact around 2 million weddings. Of course you can partner without a wedding. There are 2 million weddings every year and that forms 6 million new families every year. So when I married my wife, we formed a family. I joined her family of origin and she joined my family of origin. So there were 6 million families, 2 million that were created and 4 million that were joined. So there's this constant sort of ebb and flow about families. And when families are open to new people joining them, they're going to be embracing the difference that comes, be it same sex, opposite sex, same race, different race. I'm working on a book now on interracial marriage. There's a lot of interethnic marriage, a lot of discussion about what happens when you join a new family. Whose traditions, whose cultures do you maintain? If I marry into a different culture, how much of a right do I have to try and change their pattern or do I become part of their culture? So all these things have to be negotiated. And the way that families have Been open, were not open in the past, may predict and may not how well these new families are sustained.

Dr. Jeffrey Greif (20:06)

What are some conversations that you should have with a partner before bringing them home for the holidays?

Lulu (20:12)

We found in our research, and it's in the book adult in the book in law relationships, that if you have met your in laws and know them pretty well before you marry into them, you're going to have a more likely happier marriage. It makes sense. We interviewed a number of people, though, that had just met their new in laws at the wedding, especially parents in law, because people lived in different parts of the country, they couldn't afford to fly around a lot prenuptially. So I think getting to know your future in laws in a less pressured time than at the night before the wedding and the wedding, getting to talk to your partner about what kind of relationship you should have with his or her parents. And that's a big thing we sort of think about in law relationships, but it's obviously the child of the parents that is the one that is the key in that relationship. So, you know, if my wife married into my family, am I encouraging her to spend time with my mother and father, or am I discouraging her? Have I, you know, talked badly about my parents? So she picks up that she doesn't have to work on the relationship with my parents, or am I talking very lovingly about them? And she says, I better figure out how to connect with these people to help support my husband, me. So don't forget that the child of the in laws. I know it's a little confusing. Green lights a lot of these relationships.

Alison Stewart (21:56)

Let's take a couple more calls. Let's talk to Chris. Hi, Chris. Thanks so much for calling in.

Chris (22:03)

Hey, thanks for taking my call, guys. I'm 61 years old and I'm a libertarian. Okay. The thing that's coming up this year, obviously, is people not inviting other people over for Thanksgiving because you disagree with each other politically, which I think is the most ridiculous thing in my time. This is what I remember when we used to debate issues like, was it a good thing to go into Iraq with Bush or was Obamacare going to help us out with Barack Obama? Now it's become all about personalities and mean tweets or does Kamala work at McDonald's? I mean, it's become ridiculous. So I have a standing thing, which I tell family members and friends, if you ever want to talk about politics, I will always discuss policy with you. And I think it's healthy that discuss policy. You should do it. You should find out what the other side thinks. But you bring up political issues, once it devolves into personalities and is this guy a racist or whatever, you just lose it. And we don't communicate. So I like to talk to my friends, and they know it. I'm a policy only person, and I think we'd all be better off doing it that way because once you get into personalities, it becomes like rooting for a sports team where, you know, cowboy fans and Giants fans root for different teams. That's what politics, unfortunately, has become. So what I'm trying to say is I'm going for Thanksgiving tomorrow, my mother's house. Now, she hates Trump. Okay, Hates him. I'm libertarian, but I did vote for Trump, so. But we're not gonna. I told my mother we will discuss policies if you want, like what Trump's gonna do. Is it a good policy or bad policy? But if not, we're not gonna get into all the other stuff. So I just wish more people would be like that. And I think we all get along much better in society instead of playing for a team. And I just wish it would go back to when we could discuss policy. I just want to know what you guys think.

Alison Stewart (24:03)

Chris, thanks for the call.

Lulu (24:06)

Yeah, I think, Chris, you're putting your finger on a very important point of advice for families. We have to get past at some point some of the highly emotional, highly reactive issues that come up and listen to each other. Again. I just referenced an interracial book that I'm working on. You have to get racial perspective taking there when couples marry each other from different cultures, different races. And you have to learn to listen and realize we don't all come from the same place, but we need to get to the same place in order to make A, marriage work and B, society work. So I'm learning that the way that couples work out their issues and the way they deal with stuff that comes their way is really a model for how society can work things out. And that's why I think the advice that you're giving is so important. It's a matter of perspective taking for these couples. It's racial or ethnic perspective taking, but you could call it political perspective taking. So I think. Thanks for the good advice.

Dr. Jeffrey Greif (25:13)

Talk to Terry from Maplewood. Hi, Terry, thanks for calling in.

Terry (25:18)

Hi. I just have a few ideas. I, like so many others, come from a divided family politically, and we do tend to get emotional on these issues. So my strategy is to find ways to still have a very stimulating, interesting conversation when we get together about other topics. And there's some wonderful topics. And if somebody, myself or anybody else would like to bring up a topic like a recent very fascinating book they read or a good movie that you went to or an interesting TV series, you know, you can bring up family memories like remember when grandma used to. And you all laugh. Or it could be a very sweet moment when we're all remembering a family member that has passed. The other thing that I have used is historical events. Like just a few minutes before this one, you were talking about the history of Thanksgiving both in the United States and Canada, about, you know, Roosevelt, et cetera. It was fascinating. I didn't know all that. That type of thing can also work great too. So I think you can still have a wonderful conversation and enjoy each other. It doesn't have to be all knock, knock jokes. It can be very stimulating, but not hit that emotional button if you know, it could turn raw.

Dr. Jeffrey Greif (26:51)

Thanks for the call, Terry. We're going to interesting text that's talking about feeling guilty for not visiting family. Especially if there's been something that has happened within the family. They want to know how to deal with the guilt of not going to their families festivities or celebrations. Especially when there's something that's issue there.

Lulu (27:12)

Yeah, yeah, I think that's a tough one. Feeling guilty. It means maybe you've made a decision to not go. That's somewhere along the line you've decided I'm not going for whatever reason and that is what is engendering the guilt. So I think part of what I would be interested in is has this happened in the past or is this the first time? So there are various ways to approach issues in families. You can, number one, look at family history. Is this the 15th time that I've skipped Thanksgiving because of some reason or is this the first time? Or if people always skip Thanksgiving because there have been other political fights or other things going on. So one way to look at these issues is am I repeating a pattern or is this resonating for me that I do something and then I feel guilty about it and then I have to apologize. So I'd be thinking about two different things. An emotional pattern that I may be locked into or a historical pattern. And I would hope that again, this is the initial question for Joan is that Joan mentioned is, you know, that I mentioned for Joan, how do you want to look at yourself? What's the best portrayal of me when I come up with these difficult decisions and how can I find my way through them without feeling quite as much guilt and accept the fact that you're always going to feel guilt. If the guilt is at an 8, you want to try and turn it down to a four, it's not going to go away. So accept that, but try and just diminish the extent of the guilt and figure out the pattern that's going on here.

Alison Stewart (28:58)

We got a couple of clears. Somebody responding to Chris. People are now not limited to policy.

Dr. Jeffrey Greif (29:04)

Attacks on women are commonplace, including at home.

Alison Stewart (29:07)

Policy is personal for queer people and women.

Dr. Jeffrey Greif (29:10)

Got another text that says, I'm in a queer relationship and I come from.

Alison Stewart (29:12)

A very liberal family. My girlfriend's family is less so. She's committed to spending the holidays with my family who love her. But I can tell she feels betrayed.

Dr. Jeffrey Greif (29:20)

And a loss because she's not with.

Alison Stewart (29:22)

Her family who voted for Trump. What can I do to support her?

Lulu (29:28)

There's a lot of listening, loving and holding a space for people, and that's what you need to do when people are in pain. You need to give them a hug, you need to love them, you need to listen to them. On one other level that we can talk about, and I talk about this in both the books referenced before, is I tend to look at family relationships as the three A's. They are affectionate, ambivalent and ambiguous. So a lot of families have a great deal of affection for each other, siblings and in laws. But there's also a certain amount of ambivalence. Mixed feelings are common in families. No one or few people feel only 100% affection without some other feelings of ambivalence. And there's also ambiguity. I don't understand why the person is acting this way or feels this way. And the ambiguity, the lack of clarity fuels the ambivalence, which is the mixed feelings. So I think if we sort of sit back and say, I don't have a Norman Rockwell esque view of my family, I have a more mixed view, but say that's okay. A lot of us have mixed views of our families, but we still try and focus on the affectionate parts of, you know, focus on what is working if you can. But I understand there are some things that are just a red line. I will not go to them because of their views. And you have to accept that that's an important decision. And we all need to have a bottom line. And I certainly understand a lot of bottom lines that have been mentioned today. Those are incredibly important. And go back to the first point. Who do I see myself being? And how can I be the best person And I may be a person that will not tolerate being around people who feel a certain way.

Dr. Jeffrey Greif (31:22)

Let's talk to Tiffany from Bergen County.

Alison Stewart (31:24)

Hi, Tiffany.

Dr. Jeffrey Greif (31:25)

Thanks for calling all of it.

Tiffany (31:27)

Hi, thanks for having me. I understand. So I'm. Well, my family's from Jamaica, and many of my family members are married to white people, Jewish people. And when we talk about, you know, culturally coming together, that's actually easy because fundamentally, we all want the same things. We want to have great families. We want to live a good life. We want to, you know, build ourselves. That is different when it comes to politics. However, to me, there's a fundamental difference in value. And when the choices that you make could potentially impact me. And to me, I think that is where I do think there is a line drawn. Because what you're saying is that I'm okay with these things, whether it's, you know, I believe the person might be racist or sexist or whatever. I think that causes a problem.

Dr. Jeffrey Greif (32:22)

Thank you so much, Tiffany. We appreciate it.

Lulu (32:25)

That's the bottom line. Yes, exactly right, Tiffany, in support of what you're saying, that's the bottom line. There's some things that I don't care. I don't care who you are. I'm not going to tolerate that. That's my bottom line. And I'm going to absent myself from you or I'm not going to have you spend time with me. Absolutely.

Alison Stewart (32:44)

Let's talk about boundaries. How do you handle your boundaries? You've reached that bottom line. What do you do?

Lulu (32:53)

The boundary issue is always one that is big. Where does my life start and where does your life stop? Who's responsible for whom? We're all going to draw boundaries in different ways. One of the things we talk about in the in law book is that when I was first married, it didn't really matter to me what my parents in law, what my wife's parents were doing or saying. I could deal with that. But when my children got exposed to them, for example, this is not the case, but I'm using this as an example. My children got exposed to them. That was my boundary. If you're going to act this way with my children who can't protect themselves or can't filter through things as well as an adult can, I'm going to figure out some way to stop that. Either to absent them or to always be in the room or to prepare them or to talk to you about what I think your behavior should be with my children. Now, in laws may not accept that, but I have to speak up and protect children. So that's one boundary that is getting drawn. Also what happens is, is the notion of whoop, I don't know if we're still here. Okay. Also what happens is the notion of being careful to not be caught in a triangle between people. So that's, that's also key. Sorry, I had a little bit of a glitch here.

Dr. Jeffrey Greif (34:24)

Okay.

Lulu (34:25)

But anyway, so it's a matter of being sure that who's communicating with whom. What are the accepted patterns in our family? Do I communicate with my son in law through my daughter or do I have direct communication with my son in law? That's where people get triangulated and boundaries can get confused. And have I crossed a boundary by getting into their relationship?

Alison Stewart (34:47)

Do you think it's better to speak.

Dr. Jeffrey Greif (34:49)

One on one with a person who has crossed said boundary or do you.

Alison Stewart (34:54)

Let the whole table know from our.

Lulu (34:57)

From our research and people can directly communicate? It's better. But that's not the only way that works. A lot of families work where, for example, I would communicate important things through my daughter to my son in law, for example. If that works, and it does sometimes in our family, then that's fine. So I think there are two effective ways of working. You need to think about what's comfortable for the family members involved, including the new family member, the son or daughter in law.

Dr. Jeffrey Greif (35:29)

My guest has been psychologist and University of Maryland School of social work professor Dr. Jeffrey Greif. Thank you so much for taking listeners calls and for joining us. We really do appreciate it.

Lulu (35:39)

Thank you, Allison. This was great. Thanks to the callers.