Navigating Family Estrangement

Summary

Podcast Summary: All Of It – Episode: Navigating Family Estrangement

Host: Alison Stewart
Guest: Eamon Dolan, Author of The Power of Finding Peace and Freedom Through Family Estrangement
Release Date: April 1, 2025
Podcast: All Of It by WNYC
Duration: Approximately 25 minutes

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Introduction

In this deeply engaging episode of All Of It, host Alison Stewart welcomes Eamon Dolan, a Brooklyn-based author and the Vice President and Executive Editor at Simon and Schuster, to discuss his debut book, The Power of Finding Peace and Freedom Through Family Estrangement. The conversation delves into the complexities of cutting ties with abusive family members, the psychological impact of estrangement, and societal perceptions surrounding this difficult decision.

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Eamon Dolan’s Journey and Book Overview

[00:41] Alison Stewart introduces Eamon Dolan, highlighting his personal experience of estranging from his mother after enduring years of physical and emotional abuse. His book serves as a blend of memoir and societal research, exploring cultural taboos and the four types of maltreatment within families: physical abuse, sexual abuse, psychological/emotional abuse, and neglect.

[01:59] Eamon Dolan expresses his gratitude for being part of the conversation, setting the stage for an insightful discussion on family estrangement.

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Deciding to Estrange: When is it Right?

[02:35] Alison Stewart poses a critical question about recognizing when to exit a toxic familial relationship.

[02:35] Eamon Dolan advises individuals to compare how they are treated by their family members versus their friends. This reflection helps in establishing new relationship standards. He emphasizes the importance of communicating these boundaries and observing whether the abuser can adhere to them. If not, stepping away becomes a necessary consideration.

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Setting and Enforcing Boundaries

[03:34] Alison Stewart inquires about how Dolan enforced his boundaries with his mother.

[03:43] Eamon Dolan outlines three major rules he established:

1. No mean or cruel remarks in his presence.
2. No prolonged haranguing or tirades about personal shortcomings.
3. No misuse of the “mother card”.

When these boundaries were crossed, Dolan would calmly but firmly communicate the necessity of distancing himself from the relationship. This consistent enforcement over two years ultimately led to his estrangement.

Notable Quote:
“I had several rules, three big ones. One, she couldn't say anything mean, cruel in my presence. Another one was no tirades... And three, she couldn't play the mother card.” [03:43]

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Emotional Aftermath: Guilt and Liberation

[05:08] Alison Stewart references Dolan’s New York Times opinion piece, where he discusses feeling both guilt and liberation after estrangement.

[05:27] Eamon Dolan shares that the guilt began to subside about a year post-estrangement, when he recognized the necessity and bravery of his decision. He contrasts this with a unique form of grief:

[06:15] Eamon Dolan:
“This is a grief for something you never had. And our society is so good at grief... We have nothing like that for this kind of grief.” [06:15]

He emphasizes that societal rituals support mourning loved ones but lack mechanisms for grieving what never existed, highlighting a gap in societal understanding and support for estrangement-related grief.

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Redefining Family and Choosing Relationships

[08:02] Eamon Dolan challenges traditional notions of family, advocating for the idea that individuals should choose their families based on respect, love, and empathy rather than genetic ties. He underscores humanity’s capacity to form familial bonds through various communal structures like the military, monasteries, and sports teams.

Notable Quote:
“We should choose our families... Anybody can do this and should do it.” [08:02]

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Therapy’s Role and Its Limitations

[09:19] Eamon Dolan critiques the field of psychology, noting its tendency to promote reconciliation as a primary outcome. He argues that therapeutic approaches often overlook the nuanced realities of abuse, maintaining outdated paradigms that may not adequately support survivors seeking estrangement.

Notable Quote:
“Psychology... have a couple of hopes that are impossible to fulfill... they're like biology or physics.” [09:34]

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Listener Stories: Amy and Susan

The episode features personal stories from listeners Amy and Susan, illustrating diverse experiences with family estrangement.

Amy’s Story: [10:57] Amy shares her 17-year estrangement from her mother and strategies she employed to heal from trauma caused by her uncle and pediatrician’s abuse. Her journey highlights the importance of prioritizing personal healing over maintaining harmful family ties.

Susan’s Story: [16:58] Susan discusses her estrangement from her mother, who suffers from borderline personality disorder and dementia. Despite her role as a caregiver, Susan emphasizes the necessity of separating past trauma from present responsibilities to safeguard her mental health.

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Handling External Family Dynamics

[15:36] Alison Stewart presents a text from a listener seeking advice on maintaining boundaries without vilifying the estranged parent.

[15:36] Eamon Dolan recounts his own positive experience where his family respected his decision without much confrontation. He advises others to calmly communicate their boundaries and hold firm, even if others are perplexed or indifferent.

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Coping Mechanisms and Emotional Management

[19:00] Eamon Dolan recommends journaling as a tool to document transgressions and focus on the need for change. This practice aids in recalling events clearly, which is essential for emotional healing and maintaining resolve.

[20:00] Eamon Dolan warns against emotional reasoning, explaining that emotions like guilt and grief can distort one’s perception and hinder objective decision-making. He stresses the importance of maintaining perspective to avoid abusers’ manipulative tactics.

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The Complexity of Grief in Estrangement

[20:52] Eamon Dolan agrees with a listener’s observation that estrangement entails complex grief, different from traditional mourning. He shares his own experience of finding closure upon his mother’s death, while acknowledging that others may struggle with ongoing feelings of loss and unresolved emotions.

Notable Quote:
“Estrangement is on a spectrum... If my mother had ever sent me a note saying, I'm sorry, yeah, let's talk, I would have... but she didn't.” [23:21]

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Forgiveness: A Double-Edged Sword

[23:26] Eamon Dolan explores the role of forgiveness, criticizing its societal use as a tool to pressure survivors into reconciliation without addressing abusers’ accountability. He advocates for a form of forgiveness that requires abusers to earn it, rather than solely expecting survivors to initiate it.

Notable Quote:
“Forgiveness, when it's applied that way, is a tool of oppression.” [23:26]

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Conclusion

Alison Stewart wraps up the episode by reiterating the significance of Eamon Dolan’s work in shedding light on family estrangement. Dolan expresses gratitude for the opportunity to share his insights, emphasizing the empowerment and freedom that can come from making difficult familial decisions.

[24:19] Alison Stewart acknowledges Dolan’s contributions and the importance of his message in fostering understanding and support for those navigating family estrangement.

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Final Thoughts

This episode of All Of It offers a comprehensive exploration of family estrangement, enriched by personal narratives and expert analysis. Eamon Dolan’s candid discussion facilitates a deeper understanding of the emotional and societal challenges faced by individuals who choose to distance themselves from toxic family relationships. The conversation underscores the importance of self-preservation, the redefinition of familial bonds, and the need for societal recognition of the unique grief associated with estrangement.

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Notable Quotes:

• “I had several rules, three big ones. One, she couldn't say anything mean, cruel in my presence. Another one was no tirades... And three, she couldn't play the mother card.” — Eamon Dolan [03:43]

• “This is a grief for something you never had... We have nothing like that for this kind of grief.” — Eamon Dolan [06:15]

• “We should choose our families... Anybody can do this and should do it.” — Eamon Dolan [08:02]

• “Forgiveness, when it's applied that way, is a tool of oppression.” — Eamon Dolan [23:26]

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Additional Resources:

• Book Mentioned: The Power of Finding Peace and Freedom Through Family Estrangement by Eamon Dolan
• Contact for Sharing Stories: Call 212-433-9692 or 212-4433 on WNYC

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This summary is intended to provide a detailed overview of the podcast episode for those who have not listened. For the full experience and nuanced discussions, tuning into the episode is highly recommended.

Transcript

[Progressive Insurance]

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[Eamon Dolan]

Listener Supported WNYC Studios.

[Alison Stewart]

This is all of it from WNYC.

I'm Alison Stewart.

About 12 years ago, author Eamon Dolan.

Broke up with his mother after years.

Of both physical and emotional abuse. The story of cutting ties became the topic of his new book, the Power of Finding Peace and Freedom Through Family Estrangement. It's part memoir, part research on society's views and cultural taboos around estrangement. He writes, there are four types of maltreatment, the umbrella term for the kinds of trauma families can inflict on their children. The two kinds we're most familiar with are physical abuse and sexual abuse. But the other two types are easier for survivors and society to dismiss. They are psychological abuse along also called emotional abuse and neglect. The latter is easily the most common and arguably the most harmful and tragically the least recognized. Dolan looks the root causes for emotional abuse, how silence perpetuates it and how its long term effects on the survivors and why people decide to stay in abusive relationships or to leave. A review in the New York Times says the book is the Power of Parting is an intellectual rigorous manifesto. The Power of Parting is out today. Eamon Dolan is a Brooklyn based author, photographer and current vice President and executive editor at Science Simon and Schuster. This is his very first book. Welcome to all of it.

[Eamon Dolan]

I'm delighted to be here. Thanks.

[Alison Stewart]

So congratulations on the book by the way. Oh thank you very much listeners. Are you estranged from a parent, a sibling, another relative, or have you gone an extended period of time without speaking to them? Give us a call. 212-433-969-2212-4433 wnyc we want to hear your story. The decision to cut ties with a parent is complex. It's personal. It may not work for everyone. But from your research, how do you know when exiting a toxic relationship with a parent is right for you?

[Eamon Dolan]

I think the most important thing to ask yourself when you're considering whether to break ties with somebody is how they treat you in comparison to how everyone else treats you, particularly your friends. So that question can really focus your attention. And when you think that question through, that also helps you figure out what they would need to do to have a better relationship with you, then you can tell them. You can call them rules, you can call them requests, whatever suits you and whatever you think would get across to them. But you can tell them these are new standards for our relationship, and then you can determine whether or not they can follow those standards, those rules. And if they can't, and many people who abuse their relatives cannot, then you should consider stepping away.

[Alison Stewart]

You set up those rules for your mother.

How did you enforce those rules in your relationship with your mom?

[Eamon Dolan]

I had several rules, three big ones. One, she couldn't say anything mean, cruel in my presence. Another one was no tirades. She had, as many abusers do, she had a habit of 45 minute harangues about our various shortcomings, my siblings and mine. And three, she couldn't play the mother card. And anytime she did one of those three things, I would say gently but firmly, as we've discussed, that is a line you cannot cross. And if you continue to do that, I'm going to have to put some distance between us. So consistency is really important. I did that again and again and again for two years.

[Alison Stewart]

Those lines were crossed?

[Eamon Dolan]

Yeah, those lines were crossed a lot. She would get better at it briefly, but really only briefly for a week or two and at most. And then she would cross a line again. I would state. I would point that out to her and she'd try to hold off or she would, you know, there are lots of different kinds of reactions. Often she would get aggressive about it. She would cross further. So as I say, it took me two years and several hundred iterations. But a moment came when I said, that's it.

[Alison Stewart]

Some people. Eamon will know you from your New York Times opinion piece. I broke up with my mother. I don't regret the decision. In it, you said you expected to experience guilt or grief after making your decision, but you also felt liberated. For first of all, when did the guilt start to subside?

[Eamon Dolan]

Hard to put a specific date on it. I would say probably about a year after the estrangement. I started to feel that not only I had done the right thing, the necessary thing, but that I had done a. A brave thing and a thing that other people in my life might take as an example.

[Alison Stewart]

Your siblings, for example.

[Eamon Dolan]

Yeah, my sister. Other people, relatives who she also mistreated, not as badly as she did myself and my sister, but that she also unfurled her rage at or her disdain.

[Alison Stewart]

Did you experience grief?

[Eamon Dolan]

Yes, I did. It was a different kind of grief than the one I was at that point. More familiar with and that most people are more familiar with. Grief, as you know, is usually about mourning something you loved, cared about, someone you loved or cared about that you've lost one way or another. This kind of grief is different. This is a grief for something you never had. And our society is so good at grief. I think we sit shiva. We have Facebook pages, we have obituaries, we have rollicking wakes. We have all sorts of ways to mark the passing of those we love, society, sympathy cards. We have just the whole grief industrial complex. We have nothing like that for this kind of grief. In fact, I would argue there's not enough sympathy for it. Not only are there no rituals for it, but there is no instinct or little instinct, not enough instinct towards sympathy.

[Alison Stewart]

My guest is Eamon Dolan, the Power of Finding Peace and Freedom Through Family Estrangement. It's his new book. We'd love for you to call in if you want to share your story. If you've gone a long period of time without speaking to someone, a parent, a sibling, another relative, perhaps you're estranged from them. Our number is 2124-3396-9221-2433 wnyc. You may call in. You can join us on air or you can text to us at that number. What was something new you wanted to add to the conversation around estrangement with your book?

[Eamon Dolan]

I want to change, among other things, I want to change how we think about family. We have this ingrained notion supported by everything from every institution from religion to the law to pop psychology to TV shows, that tells us blood is thicker than water, that we need to stick with our family under all circumstances and that somehow the genetic relationship is a special one. And I strongly believe not only that that's not the case, but that we should choose our families. When we reach adulthood, our genetic relatives can be in our family. My sister is one of my closest friends. I'm so lucky to have her. But she's in my family because she treats me well, with respect, with love, with empathy. And we as a species have a remarkable capacity to make family out of strangers. If you think of the phrase band of brothers in the military or monasteries, convents or fraternities, sports teams, kibbutzim, so many institutions that weave family out of total strangers. We can do this. You can do this. Anybody can do this and should do it.

[Alison Stewart]

You write quite a bit about therapy and how it has its blind spots, often offering reconciliation as an outcome. First of all, why do you think that is?

[Eamon Dolan]

I think that psychology and psychiatry and related professions have a couple of hopes that are impossible to fulfill. One is that they are hard sciences, that they're like biology or physics, and you can measure stuff and put it in categories and boxes and deal with it that way. The other is they're, they're kind of hidebound. They're very. There are fads and trends and stuff like that, but change happens very slowly. This isn't just me saying it either. Judith Herman, who wrote the book Trauma and Trauma and Recovery, is one of the outstanding experts in this field. And she made this point three, 30 years ago in that marvelous book that old texts in the psychiatric and psychological realms read like they're brand new. And it's partially because the people who write them are so smart, but partially because the ideas get buried and then crop up again decades later. And indeed, Judith Herrmann's book reads like it was written two years ago and it's, whatever, 30 something years old.

[Alison Stewart]

Let's take a call. Let's talk to Amy. She's calling in from Brooklyn. Hi, Amy, thanks for taking the time to call, all of it. You're on the air.

[Amy]

Hi, thanks for taking my call.

[Alison Stewart]

Let's hear your story.

[Amy]

So I made the decision to be estranged from my family from actually literally every single person I was related to. The longest duration was I was estranged from my mother for 17 years, and I was estranged from my father. They were always divorced most of my life for 14 years. And what's maybe unique or maybe not unique about the reasons that I had for doing that was they did not actually abuse me, but I had been sexually abused by a man that my mother was involved with for many years, an uncle on my father's side and my pediatrician. And I was going through what they call the emergency stage of healing and recovery. I was in college and needed to drop out because I couldn't function. And I quickly realized that being around my parents, being around any family, being in any kind of relationship with them, any kind of interaction, even if their phone was very triggering for me. And I started to doubt if anyone in my family could be trusted because I was getting flashbacks every day and night. And eventually many, many, you know, obviously it was like almost two decades of estrangement from my mother. And I did a tremendous amount of healing during that time. I never went into any kind of addictive behavior or avoidant behavior. I actually faced it head on because I felt like I wasn't going to let it win. I wanted to deal with this trauma and get it out of me, out of my system, out of my body and my mind and my life. And I felt like they were potentially going to interfere with that. And I also did a tremendous amount of healing work. And so that when I became a parent myself, I no longer was afraid of them. I no longer felt resentment and anger towards them. I wanted to have a relationship on my own terms, but I felt like I didn't want the estrangement to pass to the next generation.

[Alison Stewart]

Amy, I'm going to dive in there. Thank you so much for sharing your story. What stood out to you about what Amy talked about?

What really stood out in her answer?

[Eamon Dolan]

So many things. First of all, thank you, Amy, so much for sharing that story. I'm so sorry for what you endured. I really admire you for how far you've come. And I would say that to any survivor, by the way, anyone who grows up in inhumane conditions and retains their humanity, as you clearly have. Amy, we're heroes. We shouldn't feel shame. We should feel so proud. And I hope you're proud. It sounds like you are. Another thing that stands out for me is the similarity in broad terms between your story and the stories of a lot of survivors I spoke with. Their parents didn't necessarily, particularly in the case of sexual abuse, their parents didn't necessarily commit the abuse themselves, but they stood by. They were ignorant in one way or another. One of a parent's most important duties, possibly the most important, is to protect their children. And your parents did not protect you. Something else that sticks out for me is how, how smart you were to step away. We need to be in a position of safety before we can do any other sort of healing. And you did that for yourself. So those are just three of the things among several.

[Alison Stewart]

My guest is Eamon Dolan. He wrote the Power of Finding Peace and Freedom Through Family Estrangement. We'll have more of your calls and we'll talk more with Amen after the break. This is all of it.

You're listening to all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. My guest is Eamon Dolan. He's written a book called the Power of Finding Peace and Freedom Through Family Estrangement is part memoir, part research. Here's a question for you. This is a text we got. It says, I separated from my mother in 2020 after years of distance. She agreed to see a therapist I paid for who told her my boundaries and social limits. The hardest part is asking my other family members to respect and support my boundaries with her. Such as not making me feel guilty or forcing us together. How have you handled getting other family members to understand the boundaries without making her look like the bad guy?

[Eamon Dolan]

I was very lucky in this regard. It wasn't easy. But I will say to my very happy surprise, my family was respectful of my situation. What I said to them I didn't over explain with a couple of exceptions. I talked a lot about it with my sister for example, and she was very supportive from the get go with other relatives. I said very little. I said again, gently, politely, I said I'm not speaking with my mother right now so I can't come to any event where she is also in attendance. And they were bemused. I think our family was avoidant and non confrontational enough that nobody said what, what the hell. But basically I also think in my case they were, they had some inkling of why I was doing this. But I held my ground. And indeed I think maybe only once or twice in that in the seven years or so between when we estranged and when she died, I think only once or twice did I find myself at a family event with her.

[Alison Stewart]

Let's talk to Susan from Riverhead, Long Island. Hi Susan, thank you so much for calling all of it. You're on the air.

[Susan]

Hi. I'm so glad to be a part of this conversation today. I appreciate this so much. My mother is actually still alive. She's 92 years old and I'm 65 and I've had a very difficult, difficult life experience. My mother has borderline personality disorder and dementia now and very similar to one of the other callers. My mother didn't believe things that happened to me, abuse wise in the family and called me like whore at like 9 years old because of it, you know. But I realized now that she has, you know, her own issues. The funny thing, it's not funny but I'm the primary caregiver. I don't live with her. I pay in aid, I'm her health care proxy. But I am in a 12 step recovery program that I realized that through that I was able to separate the trauma that happened to me knowing that I didn't deserve it. And I've been able to like release myself from the pain that she cost me in my life. But I'm just walking through the process of doing the right thing by her as my mother and the rest of my life. But I also have grieved the relationship that I wished I would have had with my mother.

[Alison Stewart]

Yeah.

[Susan]

And I never will. And I think I've come to terms with that in her lifetime.

[Alison Stewart]

Susan, thank you so much for calling in. You suggest that individuals who are in your situation take some time and write down the transgressions that have happened. What are some things that people might find useful from this exercise?

[Eamon Dolan]

First of all, it'll help focus them on the need for change. We often forget things. One of the little understood effects of child abuse is how it harms your memory. So we often have to do some work on our own with a therapist or just taking time. Journaling is really good for this. To call up exactly what happened to us, exactly what was done to us. That can give us some really useful energy for that we're going to need for the task ahead, for the task of saving ourselves.

[Alison Stewart]

One of the psychologists you talk about said during this process, you may start to feel anxious or guilty, so you will need to refer back to your reasons on a regular basis to stay focused and avoid emotional reasoning. Why is it important to avoid emotional reasoning?

[Eamon Dolan]

Our emotions can betray us in these circumstances. Our emotions. Our abusers know how to push our buttons because they installed the buttons. So it is really important to find ways not to distance ourselves from the experience, but to get perspective on the experience. And emotions, particularly like guilt and grief, can cloud our understanding of the truth of our situation and hamper us from doing the thinking and ultimately the feeling that we need to do to save ourselves.

[Alison Stewart]

We got this text. It says estrangement does not have the makings of, quote, straightforward grief. It's far more complex and complicated and closure can be elusive. What do you think of that?

[Eamon Dolan]

I think that's true. I was very fortunate in this regard as well, Perversely, I would say, because my mother's abuse was so extreme and so clear. I think in a lot of cases I was beaten, I was psychologically abused in a whole bunch of ways and I was neglected. So I missed sexual abuse, fortunately. But I had three barrels of the four barrels of abuse poured on me. So in that sense, it was relatively easy for me to find closure. When my mother died, I felt joy. I felt a kind of freedom I hadn't even felt years before when I estranged from her. Oftentimes, and this Susan may find this one day, oftentimes, the best thing they ever do for you is die. And I have never. I have not looked back. Aside from that period that we talked about before where the guilt and the grief were strong, I have not looked back. A lot of people do look back, though. It's very hard for a lot of people. I get that and I spend a lot of time in the book talking about how to handle that over the course of time.

[Alison Stewart]

You know, we had a caller who had a question and it was about, if you do this when you're younger and you get estranged from your family when you're younger, they may see it as a way to resolve a complicated issue rather than deal with it. How would you respond to that?

[Eamon Dolan]

That's a possibility, I will grant. And it is one of the reasons that a myth I seek to explode in the book that estrangement equals automatically equals no contact, which is the hashtag you see nowadays. It can. It did for me and I was very happy about that. But estrangement is on a spectrum. The main thing that characterizes estrangement, in my opinion, is that you're doing what you need to do to take care of yourself. If you see them once a year, if you, you know, talk to, if you text them, only restrict yourselves to texts, however you choose to do it. The other thing about estrangement is if they change, you can change. If they mend their ways, you can come back. That does happen. It doesn't happen often, but there's nothing wrong. If my mother had ever sent me a note saying, I'm sorry, yeah, let's talk, I would have, but she didn't.

[Alison Stewart]

Where does forgiveness fall in this equation?

[Eamon Dolan]

I believe everyone has the right to do whatever they want in this regard. I do believe that forgiveness in our society is a cudgel that is held over people who estrange. So many times I've heard from well meaning people, basically, can't you just forgive and forget? Can't you just let it be in the past? And I believe that forgiveness, when it's applied that way, is a tool of oppression. Why aren't they saying to the abuser, what can you do to earn the survivor's forgiveness? That doesn't really come up. And again, if you, you know, my dad did not abuse us directly. He was an enabler. He essentially absented himself. So I have for him what I would call partial forgiveness and compassion because I know he was abused as well.

[Alison Stewart]

The name of the book is the Power of Finding Peace and Freedom through Family Estrangement. It is by Eamonn Dolan. Thank you for sharing your story and sharing your research with us and congratulations on the book.

[Eamon Dolan]

My pleasure. It was an honor to talk with you.

[Alison Stewart]

And that is all of it. I'm Alison Stewart. I appreciate you listening and I appreciate you.

I will meet you back here tomorrow.

[Eamon Dolan]

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