Podcast Summary

Podcast: All Of It (WNYC)
Episode: New Doc About "The Librarians" Fighting Against Book Bans
Host: Alison Stewart
Guests:

• Kim Snyder (Oscar-nominated and Peabody Award-winning director)
• Martha Hickson (Subject of the documentary, librarian from New Jersey)
  Date: December 31, 2025

Overview

This episode centers on The Librarians, a documentary that examines the surge of book bans, the mounting pressure on school librarians, and the national battle for the freedom to read. Host Alison Stewart talks with director Kim Snyder and featured librarian Martha Hickson about the unprecedented attacks on librarians, the politicization of school boards, and the deeply personal and societal stakes of this new culture war. The conversation illuminates both the emotional toll on individuals and the broader ideological and democratic implications.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Genesis of the Documentary (01:31–04:38)

• Kim Snyder describes “The Kraus List” incident:
  In fall 2021, Texas state senator Matt Kraus created a list of 850 books to be reviewed or removed from schools, triggering a wave of organized book censorship. This list primarily targeted works on LGBTQ issues, race, and sexuality.
• National Context:
  The organized nature and scale of book bans and librarian targeting is new, with roots in post-pandemic culture wars and amplified political tensions.
• Emergence of “Freedom Fighters”:
  Snyder found a network of librarians organizing against these attacks.

“This very organized siege attack on our librarians was shocking to me … that was three and a half, four years ago.”
— Kim Snyder (02:17)

2. Changing Nature of Book Challenges (04:39–07:27)

• Martha Hickson’s Motivation for Librarianship:
  Pivoted from a corporate career post-9/11 to find meaningful work enriching students’ lives through books.
• Traditional Protocols vs. New Reality:
  Prior to 2021, parental book concerns were rare and resolved via conversation and compromise. No books were banned.

“The great thing about a conversation is ... together we can find another option for your student. In every single case, a compatible resolution was achieved. No books were banned.”
— Martha Hickson (06:18)

• Current Environment:
  Challenge volume exploded, normal processes abandoned, and parents/librarians faced accusations of criminality, with words like “groomer” and “pornographer” weaponized.

3. The Personal Impact and Escalation (09:01–12:05)

• Martha’s Town & Flashpoint:
  Hunterdon County, New Jersey — a relatively red, affluent area.
  On September 28, 2021 (09:31), Martha learned she was being publicly attacked at a board meeting, accused by name of being a “pornographer, pedophile, and groomer.”

“My life is divided into before and after… when it came time for public comments, one after another … called me by name, a pornographer, pedophile, and groomer of children.”
— Martha Hickson (09:31–10:41)

• Her Response:
  Panic and fear, but quickly mobilized support from her union and the American Library Association, drawing on prior experience with book challenges.

4. Historical Perspective and Stakes (12:14–15:40)

• Caller’s Story:
  Alan from Brooklyn shares his mother’s experience fighting for banned literature in NYC schools—highlighting that censorship battles are ongoing but noting the current wave’s scale is unprecedented.
• Democratic Implications:
  Kim Snyder draws a line from the plight of librarians to broader themes of democracy, censorship, and the danger of erasing marginalized voices.

“The stakes are upholding the most important tenets of democracy—freedom of expression, freedom to read—but they're also about protecting kids…”
— Kim Snyder (13:55)

• Why This Wave Is Different:
  The culture war is more organized, more public, and involves real threats and dangers to librarians.

5. School Boards as Battlegrounds (16:32–18:15)

• School Boards Weaponized:
  Board meetings transformed into orchestrated, divisive events with minimal real dialogue; school board elections now central to the fight over book access.
• Low Voter Turnout:
  With only about 6% of eligible voters participating in board elections, the stakes and opportunities for change are high.

“School boards have become weaponized… they’re scripted, people are sent in, it’s organized… It's really important to show up at them because they determine so much of these issues around censorship and freedom to read.”
— Kim Snyder (16:32–18:15)

6. Librarian Community, Curriculum, and the “Protect the Children” Argument (18:23–21:24)

• Community Support:
  Caller Allison, a former NJ school librarian, affirms solidarity and shares experience developing a “banned books” curriculum.
• Obscenity Arguments:
  Discussion about how arguments about protecting children are exploited, conflating young adult books with elementary access for manipulative purposes.

“They’re taking books intended for young adults… and using that false frame to demonize librarians and the profession as a whole.”
— Martha Hickson (20:46)

7. Personal Safety and Harassment (21:28–22:09)

• Harassment:
  Martha recounts being doxxed, followed, and forced to install security systems due to ongoing intimidation—even post-retirement.

8. Organized Political Forces (22:15–23:25)

• Role of Patriot Mobile:
  Snyder explains the involvement of corporate PACs like Patriot Mobile, funding efforts to flip school boards and advance an anti-public education, white Christian nationalist agenda.
  A documentary character undergoes a reversal after recognizing the deception involved.

9. Emotional and Civic Takeaways (23:42–26:55)

• Essential Role of Librarians and Teachers:
  Listeners and guests stress that exposure to diverse ideas is vital for developing young minds.
• Why Go Public?:
  Martha chose visibility to help fellow librarians and the public understand the reality of what’s happening.

“If sharing my experiences could help other librarians navigate these very difficult waters, then it would be worth it… I want the world at large to know what is happening.”
— Martha Hickson (24:04)

• The Ultimate Endgame:
  Snyder links the movement to efforts to erase history and foment fear in changing demographics, indicating a much broader anti-democratic project.

“...the end game is to rewrite history.”
— Kim Snyder (25:48)

• Advice for Future Librarians:
  Martha encourages new librarians to “stick with it” and stresses knowing library selection, challenge, and removal policies inside-out.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the new intensity:
  “This very organized siege attack on our librarians was shocking…” – Kim Snyder (02:17)
• On traditional conflict resolution:
  “A compatible resolution was achieved. No books were banned.” – Martha Hickson (06:18)
• On the public attacks:
  “Called me by name, a pornographer, pedophile, and groomer of children.” – Martha Hickson (10:41)
• On the current stakes:
  “It is everyone's story to think about censorship and how un-American it fundamentally is.” – Kim Snyder (15:40)
• On manipulation of “protecting children”:
  “They're taking books intended for young adults... and using that false frame to demonize librarians and the profession as a whole.” – Martha Hickson (20:46)
• On librarian solidarity:
  “I'm a huge fan of yours... your community is behind you and we've followed you and we support you.” – Caller Allison (18:23)
• On the larger agenda:
  “The end game is to rewrite history.” – Kim Snyder (25:48)
• Advice for new librarians:
  “Stick with it... know your library’s policies…” – Martha Hickson (26:30)

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment/Topic | |-----------|--------------| | 01:31–04:38 | Kraus List & Documentary Genesis | | 06:18–07:27 | Traditional Conflict Resolution in Libraries | | 09:31–10:41 | Martha’s Ordeal Begins | | 13:55–15:40 | Historical Perspective & Democratic Stakes | | 16:32–18:15 | Weaponization of School Boards | | 20:46–21:24 | Manipulation of “Protect the Children” Narrative | | 21:28–22:09 | Martha Details Security Concerns | | 22:15–23:25 | Explanation of Patriot Mobile & Political Forces | | 24:04–25:36 | Martha on “Going Public” | | 25:48 | Kim on the End Game of Book Bans | | 26:30 | Martha’s Advice to New Librarians |

Tone and Takeaways

This episode adopts a tone of urgency, empathy, and advocacy. It navigates both the personal cost of standing up for intellectual freedom and the societal costs of coordinated censorship, urging listeners to become involved at the community level. Both guests emphasize resilience, solidarity, and the ongoing necessity of defending access to diverse ideas.

For listeners: This episode is essential for understanding the real-world consequences, motivations, and stakes behind the wave of book bans in American schools, as well as the courage required to resist them.