New Doc About Ukrainian Dancers' First Post-Invasion Show

Summary

All Of It: New Doc About Ukrainian Dancers' First Post-Invasion Show

Episode Release Date: July 25, 2025

Introduction

In this compelling episode of WNYC's ALL OF IT, host Tiffany Hansen delves into the creation and significance of the new documentary, "Match in a Haystack." Directed by Emmy winner Joe Hill and produced by Stephanie Null, who also serves as the film's movement director, the documentary captures the resilience and creativity of Ukraine's leading contemporary dance company amidst the turmoil of war. The episode offers an in-depth exploration of how art serves as both a form of resistance and a means of preserving cultural identity during conflict.

Overview of "Match in a Haystack"

"Match in a Haystack" is a poignant documentary that follows a group of Ukrainian women dancers as they reunite for their first performance since the Russian invasion. Set against the backdrop of a city ravaged by conflict, the film juxtaposes destruction with the vibrant persistence of artistic expression. Misty Copeland, renowned ballet dancer, serves as an executive producer, underscoring the film's commitment to highlighting the power of dance in times of adversity.

Origins of the Project

Timestamp: 02:45

Joe Hill discusses his initial inspiration for the project:

Joe Hill (02:51): "When Russia launched its full-scale invasion in Ukraine, I felt that our coverage was dominated by images of death and destruction. I wanted to document the act of creation instead of destruction, to capture a different facet of Ukrainian resilience."

Hill reached out to Stephanie Null to collaborate on identifying artists who continued to create amidst the chaos, ultimately focusing on the dance community as a medium of expression beyond words and sounds.

Meeting the Dancers

Timestamp: 03:38 - 04:46

Hill explains the selection process:

Joe Hill (03:38): "Dance was chosen because it's a visceral form of expression, especially when words and music might fall short. It visually and expressively communicates the deep emotions and experiences of the dancers."

The documentary features women who balanced their roles as mutual aid volunteers and participants in war efforts with their commitment to dance. Their decision to perform was driven by a desire to ensure that Ukrainian cultural identity persisted despite the ongoing conflict.

Life in Kyiv for Artists

Timestamp: 04:52 - 05:55

Stephanie Null, born in Kyiv and raised in the U.S., provides insight into the challenges faced by artists in the city:

Stephanie Null (05:06): "Artists in Kyiv grapple with surviving daily hardships while striving to continue creating. Many have had to abandon their art to work on the front lines or support war efforts, making the continuation of their creative work even more admirable."

She emphasizes the immense difficulty and internal conflict artists endure to maintain their cultural contributions during such trying times.

Motivations Behind the Dance Performance

Timestamp: 06:20 - 07:45

Joe Hill explores the personal and collective motivations driving the dancers:

Joe Hill (06:20): "For some, it was resilience and defiance, a way to assert that a portion of Ukrainian culture could not be erased. For others, it was an intrinsic need to express themselves and find meaning through art amidst chaos."

He highlights the internal struggles the dancers faced in deciding whether their creative efforts were appropriate or meaningful during the war, underscoring the complex emotions tied to their performances.

Stephanie Null on the Filmmaking Process

Timestamp: 07:47 - 09:57

Stephanie Null discusses her dual role as producer and movement director:

Stephanie Null (08:42): "As movement director, I guided the dancers to express their experiences not just through words but through movement itself. We created 'dance interviews' that allowed the dancers to convey their feelings and stories physically."

This innovative approach allowed the documentary to capture the depth of the dancers' emotions and the significance of their artistic expressions in a war-torn environment.

Art as Resistance

Timestamp: 11:21 - 12:41

Joe Hill delves into the concept of art as a form of resistance:

Joe Hill (11:21): "Dance becomes a profound act of defiance, a way to assert one's existence and humanity when so much is at stake. It's the ultimate expression of survival and the refusal to be erased."

He reflects on how the physicality of dance embodies resistance, allowing individuals to reclaim their bodies and identities in the face of adversity.

State of Ukrainian Art and Culture

Timestamp: 12:41 - 15:32

Stephanie Null provides an update on the contemporary art scene in Kyiv:

Stephanie Null (14:41): "Ukrainian contemporary art is incredibly powerful yet underrecognized on the global stage. The war has amplified its significance, as artists strive to preserve and express their cultural narratives despite immense challenges."

She emphasizes the importance of international attention to Ukrainian art, which has historically been suppressed under Russian influence.

Personal Insights and Hope

Timestamp: 15:53 - 20:44

The discussion shifts to personal reflections and the broader implications of the documentary:

Joe Hill (15:53): "The film is about resilience and the conscious decision to find meaning in life despite horrific circumstances. It's a testament to the human spirit's capacity to create and find joy even in the darkest times."

Stephanie Null adds:

Stephanie Null (20:20): "For the dancers, creating this performance wasn't about defiance; it was about living authentically and finding pleasure in creation despite the ongoing war."

Their shared hope is that viewers will recognize the profound strength and determination of the Ukrainian people to maintain their cultural identity through art.

Conclusion and Availability

Timestamp: 20:44 - 21:13

The episode concludes with information on the documentary's screenings and streaming availability:

Tiffany Hansen (21:11): "Match in a Haystack has additional showings at the Angelica and will be available for streaming this fall."

Joe Hill and Stephanie Null express their gratitude, emphasizing the importance of sharing these stories with a broader audience.

Takeaways

• Art as Survival: "Match in a Haystack" showcases how dance serves as a means of survival and resistance for Ukrainian artists during the war.

• Cultural Preservation: The documentary underscores the critical role of maintaining cultural practices amidst conflict to preserve national identity.

• Personal Resilience: The dancers' stories highlight individual and collective resilience, demonstrating the power of art to provide meaning and joy even in dire circumstances.

• Innovative Storytelling: The film employs unique methods, such as "dance interviews," to capture the depth of the dancers' experiences beyond verbal narration.

Notable Quotes

• Joe Hill (02:51): "We wanted to make this record like some kind of documentation of the act of creation as opposed to destruction."

• Stephanie Null (05:06): "Artists in Kyiv grapple with surviving daily hardships while striving to continue creating."

• Joe Hill (11:21): "Dance becomes a profound act of defiance, a way to assert one's existence and humanity when so much is at stake."

• Stephanie Null (14:41): "Ukrainian contemporary art is incredibly powerful yet underrecognized on the global stage."

• Joe Hill (15:53): "It's a testament to the human spirit's capacity to create and find joy even in the darkest times."

Final Thoughts

This episode of ALL OF IT offers a deeply moving portrayal of how Ukrainian dancers use their art to navigate and resist the ravages of war. Through the lens of "Match in a Haystack," listeners gain a nuanced understanding of the intersection between art, culture, and survival, highlighting the indomitable human spirit's quest for expression and meaning amidst chaos.

Transcript

[Tiffany Hansen]

Much more to come, including another documentary called Match in a Haystack on the Way. This is all of it. Stay with us.

[Joe Hill]

Next time on the New Yorker Radio Hour, why does the US Government have Marines in Los Angeles? I believe they experimented with us and they were putting every other city in America on notice. Mess with Us will come for you. The mayor of Los Angeles, Karen Bass, next time on the New Yorker Radio Hour tomorrow morning at 10 on WNYC.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Support for WNYC comes from Ava the secret conversations. Downton Abbey's Elizabeth McGovern takes the stage as Ava Gardner. A look back at the golden age.

[Stephanie Null]

Of cinema with Mickey Rooney and Frank Sinatra starts July 29th.

[N/A]

[e-mail] the Vermont Cheese Council presenting Vermont Cheese Week, a week of tastings and pairings, farm tours and outdoor dinners in and around Vermont, September 6th through the 13th. Learn more at vtcheese.com Poster House, a boutique museum in Chelsea, presenting Puerto Rico in print. The posters of Lorenzo Omar, whose work reflects the complex history of Puerto Rico, on View until September 7th. Learn more at posterhouse.org WNYC City Harvest, who are on the road every day rescuing 77 million pounds of nutritious food a year for New Yorkers in need. Transforming surplus food into sustenance and sustainability. That's how they feed good. [e-mail].

[Tiffany Hansen]

You'Re listening to all of it here on WNYC. I'm Tiffany Hansen in for Alison Stewart. The new documentary Match in a Haystack follows members of Ukraine's leading contemporary dance company as they navigate what it means to be an artist in a country torn apart by war. The film, which is set in Kiev, has been devastated, which has been devastated by by fighting, but which is also very much alive with creativity. It follows a group of women who were forced to step away from dance and then reunite for their first performance since the Russian invasion. Misty Copeland is an executive producer on the film. It's directed by Emmy winner Joe Hill and produced by Stephanie Null, who also is the film's movement director. Match in a Haystack premiered yesterday at the Angelica and has three more showings next week. It'll be available for streaming this fall. Joining us now to talk about the film film, our director, Joe Hill and producer and movement director Stephanie Null. Welcome to you both.

[Joe Hill]

Thank you so much for having us.

[Stephanie Null]

Thank you for having us. Hi.

[Tiffany Hansen]

All right, Joe, let's just start about talking about how you got involved with this project. How did these dancers come to your attention?

[Joe Hill]

That's a great Question. When I was. When the. When Russia launched its full scale invasion in Ukraine, I was still a journalist and I was working for Vice News. And we had been working in so many different ways to cover the conflict. And I had this overwhelming feeling that, you know, essentially we were working to create this record of history in the moment, but everything we documented was death and destruction. And I felt the sense that maybe there was another history, there was something else to look for. And so we decided that we wanted to make this record like some kind of documentation of the act of creation as opposed to destruction. And so that. That was actually when I called Stephanie and I asked if she would help me try to find a group of artists that were still trying to create during war.

[Tiffany Hansen]

So you weren't just thinking dance immediately. You were just like, we need art people who are doing something positive in a creative space, in a creative.

[Joe Hill]

Exactly.

[Tiffany Hansen]

And when you first met the dancers, what was your initial reaction? You, Jo.

[Joe Hill]

Yeah, so for me, you know, it was a long conversation. We met and interviewed so many different artists. We decided pretty early on that dance was interesting to us because I think that something that's really important to remember is that when words aren't capable of describing the way we feel, I feel like sometimes people turn to music. And even when music isn't enough, people turn to movement. And it felt like somehow visually and expressively, dance was the way to go. And we interviewed all of these dancers. Many of them had fled the country and gone abroad, and many of them had, you know, a lot of people gave up their art in general and gone to the front lines or had participated in different war efforts. And Stephanie found this really interesting project. It was a group of women who were, you know, mutual aid volunteers, and they were involved in the war efforts. And they sort of. It dawned on them that if they, you know, if they were only doing war efforts and they weren't creating art, then essentially contemporary Ukrainian culture had ceased to exist in this time. And so they decided to make this performance that was about sort of their experience trying to navigate the war. And it was the way that they expressed themselves at this time.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Stephanie, you grew up in Kyiv, right? You were born there and you grew up in the U.S. yes, I was.

[Stephanie Null]

Born in Kiev, and then we moved when I was a child, and I.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Grew up in the US what is it like in. In Kyiv now for the artists there?

[Stephanie Null]

I think it's really hard. I think they have to constantly grapple with surviving and this inner conflict and creating as well. And I think so many Artists now aren't able to do that. They've completely shifted their life to something else, to working on the front, to fighting, to having to learn how to hold a weapon and use it. Those that are still creating in Kyiv, if they haven't left the country, I. I think it's really not easy. I think it's not easy to encounter a night of shelling, sleep so little and wake up and. And want to keep creating. If I was living in Kyiv, I don't know how. How I would do that. I don't know if I would want to create, honestly. So these women in the film are. For me, it's really admirable that they could do that.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Joe, what. What do you. You've spent a lot of time with them now at this point. What do you think drives that other than just that you mentioned that sort of like, need to. The need to keep the cultural identity of Ukraine alive and thriving. But there. There has to be kind of a personal engine for. For these dancers, artistically speaking, as an artist, I think.

[Joe Hill]

I think that there's a. Several things that really drive them. And. And I think that it was different for everyone we met in the group as well. I think for some of them, it felt like resilience. It felt like it was some kind of act of defiance that they were able to keep creating that. It was a. It was a display that, you know, no matter what, you couldn't erase this sort of poor. This portion of Ukrainian culture. I think that for some of them, it was because they didn't know what else to do. And it felt like there was something bubbling inside them that had to come out somehow. It had to. To. There was something that had to be expressed, and it was just this general need. I think for some of them, it was joy and. And I think that what really caught me by surprise or what I found to be really, you know, something I think is really unique about the film is that the conflict, the central conflict of the movie I don't really think is necessarily Russian bombing. I think a lot about this internal struggle. And I think the central conflict of the film is that that despite this sort of decision, that there's a group of people that decide to get together and try to make this performance. You know, the reality is that for them, it's not such a simple decision. It's. It's actually not that easy to even decide it's worth making. And I think they struggled all with the guilt of just knowing that they were allowed or able to be in this room. Even if the power shut off, even if they were, you know, cold, they weren't doing these other things. They weren't on the front lines. They were. They were protected enough that they could continue to. To spend their time doing something that gave their lives meaning. And I think that the. The overwhelming turmoil is. Is that's what the conflict of the film is about.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Stephanie.

[Stephanie Null]

I think for them, it didn't feel defiant. It didn't feel necessarily resilient. I think they had eight months since the start of the war when they started working on this performance. And I think for them, they were so excited to come back together and be in the studio again for the first time in so many months. I think that they were scared a lot of the time. Scared to create something, actually, and constantly questioning it. And I think that they never considered that it's an act of bravery or resilience. We see that from the outside and we really acknowledge that. But for them, I think, like all Ukrainians, they were trying to live their life in the way that they should and not hide, and they were being themselves.

[Tiffany Hansen]

You're the movement director on the film. For those of us who have no idea what that means, can you explain what that is and how you fit into the sort of pieces of the film?

[Stephanie Null]

Yeah. So a lot of the film, I mean, it's around a dance group. And so when Joe reached out to me, we started looking for dancers and for this cast. And as movement director, it was. There's one part of the film that it was Joe's idea to have a. Almost an interview as a dancer. Dancers, we. It's a very visceral thing. We use the body instead of the words. And these are all dancers that have so much to say. And we're doing a documentary, so we're constantly having them speak. But we had this idea to also have them speak with their art and their craft, their movement. Exactly. And so we also did these series of interviews that are dance interviews in a way, and we. I remember Joe had a point when we were preparing for these interviews that it should really be from what they have to say. Like, it's easy to kind of project what you think, you know, might be going on, but to keep it open so that we offer a lot of dialogue and a lot of questions. But ultimately, it's. It's guiding them to feel comfortable, to reach a point where they can express fully themselves and what they're going through through their movement and not only their words.

[Tiffany Hansen]

The film is match in a haystack. We're talking with the Emmy winner Joe Hill, who is the director of the film, and Stephanie Null, who is, as we mentioned, the film's movement director. We're going to take a quick break and we'll right back. This is all of it. I'm Tiffany Hansen for Alison Stewart. This is all of it. I'm Tiffany Hansen in for Alison Stewart. We're talking about the documentary film Match in a Haystack, which follows members of Ukraine's leading contemporary dance company as they navigate what it means to be an artist in a country that's torn apart by war. We're talking with Emmy winner and director Joe Hill, and also with the film's movement director Stephanie Knoll. Joe, I want to get back to this notion of art as a form of resistance. What is it about dance, do you think, that is particularly suited to resistance? Is there something in the physicality of it that may be not just, you know, filmically, if that's a word you know, can express that resistance? But what did you notice from the dancers in terms of, like, how it. How the dance is as a particular way of resistance really fills that need for them?

[Joe Hill]

Well, I think that something that's just undeniable is that we are our bodies. And I think about something so visceral from my time covering war is that, you know, this is all that we have, and it's the thing that's torn apart. And I think that in a time when so much is at stake, when, you know, all of us go to bed in curfew and we're all sort of lying awake as we hear the shelling, we hear strikes, and it's just, you know, one, maybe that night, it wasn't our home that was struck. You wake up and you go, and you still have a body and you still have a life. And I think that it's. It's the act of defiance to have survived and chosen to be there. It's the act that it's. It's a display of having survived for one more day. And so I think that there's something extremely profound and visceral about being able to. To express yourself fully with the tool that you have that. That still is here.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Stephanie, you interviewed a lot of the dancers as you were working on this film and talked to them about their lives and their art. And so I' curious if you can tell us what those interviews were like and how they feel. I know you said that there's. There was some pessimism about the state of Ukrainian art and culture. Was that Was there any hope there as well, or how would you describe the state of mind about that? And then also, what is the state of it actually in Ukraine at this moment?

[Stephanie Null]

Yeah, when we started doing the interviews, it was the end of 2022, so it was about eight months after the war had started in Ukraine. And a lot of the dancers had either left the country and they had come back, or they had remained outside of the country, or there was very little going on, actually, they were going through a completely new reality. And so their focus actually wasn't on dance. And we even encountered sometimes that dancers didn't want to. They felt it was more important to talk about the front and that front, then a cultural front. And so that was actually an interesting thing, was that sometimes we experience dancers who were fighting. And they said, no, I actually, I don't want to make a documentary about dancing. I want to. I want to. I want to fight. And so I think the dancers in Kiev, a lot of the movie, is also about this inner conflict of guilt, of creating your art while you're at war. And does it mean something? Is there a reason you're doing it? And I think that's a really common theme amongst many Ukrainians, also, this constant need to feel, to help more. And I think these artists went through that, that they. They were creating, but they were. They had this conflict of if they should be.

[Joe Hill]

Joe Stephanie said something really important. You were talking about dance and resistance, and she mentioned the cultural front, which. Which was a concept that a lot of people had used. And they talked about this cultural front line that it was sort of. You know, I think historically in Ukraine, there's a lot of time that they've spent sort of behind the Iron Curtain, as you could say. And I think that in only the last handful of years has it been possible to express themselves fully without feeling like they were necessarily being under this sort of Russian influence or this Russian sort of surveillance. And I think that that sort of sense of freedom was really being able to thrive inside the dance community. And I think that it was. That was the thing that felt at stake, and that was the thing that I think people were really trying to preserve during this war.

[Stephanie Null]

Stephanie I also think that the contemporary art scene, not just dance, but art in Kiev is so powerful, and it's not on such an international and world view. I think now with the war, it is a bit more. But knowing Kyiv prior to the war, I always knew that the art that's happening there and being created is amazing. It's incredible. And so powerful, and it didn't always have the viewers that it should. And I think that's why this is also a really cool that Joe wanted to do something on dance because it deserves those eyes. And like Joe was saying that for so long, Ukrainian artists were silenced by Russia, and now they have this chance, and they're. They're really fighting to continue speaking. And I think that's why Ukrainians are fighting so much, is to be able.

[Tiffany Hansen]

To continue speaking and not just the dancers. Right. I mean, you and your experiences, Joe, you've come across, I can imagine, while you're there doing this.

[Stephanie Null]

Right.

[Tiffany Hansen]

All manner of artists and people who are sort of fighting, quote, unquote, on that cultural front line. What do you hope people who see the film will take away from them about that experience?

[Joe Hill]

Well, I think that's something that. Something that's really stayed true for me is I believe the film is not necessarily a Ukraine film in the same way that it's a film about resilience. And it's about the decision that no matter how sort of complex and horrific the things around you end up being, it's about this decision to try to find meaning in your life. And so I think that, you know, for myself as a filmmaker, I've. I've felt this way too, where I. I feel very daunted going to sleep. You know, I feel I'm overcome by the sort of things I've seen when I've been filming in other war zones and the things that, you know, I see on the news now, the state of our country, I think that these kinds of things haunt me and sometimes discourage me from also continuing to do the things that I love, like creating or making films or making telling stories. And I think that to see a group of women who decided that despite everything that they were going through specifically in that circumstance, they still would try to do something that was meaningful to them. I think that that's just. To me, it's important that we just spend a couple hours, you know, thinking about the fact that we can make this decision together.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Well, let's talk for a second here about the dancers, because this does. Obviously, it focuses on the film, focuses on the dancers. Yulia. Am I saying that right? Yulia is the troupe director. Tell us about her and why she felt that this was a good time to create a new performance. Either of you? Stephanie?

[Stephanie Null]

She talked about. She's quite young. When she started it, she was 24. And she talked about that the war really taught her to live in the present. You don't know what tomorrow brings. You don't know what next week brings. And she said that, you know, before the war, it was something that she would have only dreamed of. And this gave her an impetus to say, no, now is the time. The time is only now. And actually something. An issue we had when filming, when planning was. We. It was really hard to plan, actually, because they would always say, oh, I don't know. I don't know when the schedule is. I can't tell you what it is next month because they really live in this state of only the present moment.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Jo Yulia in the film says, we don't know if we've already experienced some of the most terrible events or if they're ahead of us. How do you think that affected her as an artist?

[Joe Hill]

Well, I think that honestly, Stephanie started to hint at this, but, like, I sometimes maybe lovingly call it the YOLO mentality, where it is this sense where, like, you don't know if it's gonna be your house that night, and you don't really know if it's gonna be. You know, I think that with that overwhelming sense that, like, it could be tonight, it could be tomorrow, but you don't know what is ahead. I think that what that forced people to do was live in. People made decisions that was that. That supported the things that they cared about most. You know, I think that people would spend that extra few hours with their friends before curfew, and people would spend those coup, you know, doing the things that they felt was mattered to them. So, like, that actually was, you know, an unfortunate reason to have this discovery. But I think that that was actually like, a lot of wisdom that I learned and felt inspired by the performance.

[Tiffany Hansen]

That all of this builds up to is joyous. There are smiles, there are flowers. Right. How does it feel? How did it feel for you to reach that point in the film? And then how do you think viewers will view that point in the film, Stephanie? Joe?

[Joe Hill]

Yeah, of course. Well, I just hope that people. I mean, I felt it's complicated. I think that's something that it's bittersweet. I think that it's full of tears and it's full of smiles, and I think that there's some kind of sensation that, you know, just achieving the performance wasn't even. It's a film about a performance, but I think in some ways it's not. And I think that we really tried to explore the sense of one of the. One of the characters. Gala she mentions, you know, this question. She says at some point. I don't know really if this is for the audience or if it's for myself. And I think that we really explored this idea, like, you know, I think we just really enjoyed this. This idea that, like the sensation of joy and community and these things coming together and what that actually means for the people who do it and why that was necessary for them.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Really quickly, we got about 20 seconds. You were gonna. No, go ahead. You were gonna add Stephanie.

[Stephanie Null]

Yeah. I think what Jo was saying about, for example, Gala, she was really unsure if she wanted to do the performance because this whole thing of should I be creating when I should be maybe doing something else to help the war, Literally, or more literally. And after the performance was over, she says that it's such a pleasure to create. And she was so GR that she had this project to go to so that she could remember that actually, that's.

[Tiffany Hansen]

A really great place to leave it. I think we've been talking about. The film is Match in a Haystack. The director is Jo Hill and it's produced by Stephanie Null and she's also the movement coordinator. Movement director. Movement director. Excellent. You can. It's actually. More screenings have been added next week at the Angelica. You can see it on streaming platforms this fall. Joe, Stephanie, thanks so much for joining us.

[Joe Hill]

Thank you for having us.

[Stephanie Null]

Thank you for having us.

[Tiffany Hansen]

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