New Interviews Shed Light on the Son of Sam Killer

Summary

All Of It: New Interviews Shed Light on the Son of Sam Killer

Host: Alison Stewart
Guest: Joe Berlinger, Filmmaker
Release Date: August 11, 2025
Source: WNYC
Episode Duration: Approximately 19 minutes

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1. Introduction to the Episode

Alison Stewart opens the episode by introducing the topics to be covered, including a live performance by Adrian Cassada of Black Pumas, a discussion on Paul Gauguin with author Sue Prudho, and a segment on literary classics with Olivet producer Jordan Loff. However, the primary focus quickly shifts to the Son of Sam case, a landmark true-crime story that terrorized New York City in the late 1970s.

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2. The Son of Sam Case Overview

The episode delves into the infamous Son of Sam murders that gripped New York City from 1976 to 1977. David Berkowitz, known as the Son of Sam, targeted young couples in parked cars, creating widespread fear. The media frenzy surrounding his crimes culminated in his arrest on August 10, 1977, as reported by the New York Post's headline, "Caught" ([00:07]).

Key Points:

• Berkowitz taunted police with threatening letters.
• An eyewitness identified a parking ticket linked to Berkowitz's vehicle, leading to his capture.
• His arrest brought immense relief to a city living in fear.

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3. Joe Berlinger’s Documentary Insights

Joe Berlinger, a renowned filmmaker known for his in-depth true-crime documentaries, discusses his new Netflix series, "Conversations with the Killer: The Son of Sam Tapes." This series features rare interviews from the 1980s between Berkowitz and prison reporter Jack Jones, alongside Berlinger's own conversation with Berkowitz.

Notable Quotes:

• Berlinger: "This case is foundational for why we're so obsessed with true crime today." ([02:45])
• Berlinger: "Berkowitz baited the press in a way that's unique." ([04:48])

Key Points:

• The series explores the psychological interplay between Berkowitz and the media.
• Berkowitz's manipulation of the press is contrasted with other serial killers like Ted Bundy and John Wayne Gacy, who typically avoided media attention.
• Berlinger emphasizes the case's role in shaping public fascination with true crime.

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4. Challenges in Capturing Berkowitz

Berlinger highlights the difficulties law enforcement faced in apprehending Berkowitz, attributing delays to the lack of inter-departmental communication within the NYPD during the 1970s.

Notable Quotes:

• Berlinger: "Despite clear indicators that these killings were linked, the precincts didn't communicate." ([06:19])
• Berlinger: "Both Bundy and Berkowitz made the police realize they need to share information." ([07:00])

Key Points:

• The absence of advanced technology and unified databases hindered the investigation.
• Berkowitz used a .44 caliber Bulldog revolver, which left distinctive bullet evidence.
• The case underscored the necessity for better information sharing among police departments, influencing future law enforcement practices.

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5. Impact on Victims and Their Families

The documentary sheds light on the enduring trauma experienced by victims and their families. Berlinger underscores the importance of respecting their stories and ensuring that their experiences remain central to the narrative.

Notable Quotes:

• Berlinger: "It's still with them. They think about these things every day." ([08:16])
• Berlinger: "I always try to highlight the victim stories and make sure no victim is upset that we're doing a show." ([08:50])

Key Points:

• Berlinger emphasizes ethical storytelling, ensuring victims' dignity is preserved.
• The ongoing emotional toll on survivors and families is a poignant aspect of true-crime narratives.

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6. Interviewing David Berkowitz

Berlinger discusses his approach to interviewing Berkowitz for the documentary, expressing initial hesitation about giving a platform to a convicted serial killer. However, he deemed it essential to present Berkowitz's perspective to provide a comprehensive understanding of the case.

Notable Quotes:

• Berlinger: "I was concerned about giving him a voice, but I felt it was important." ([11:09])
• Berlinger: "If you know somebody who's troubled, get them help because a horrible thing could be avoided." ([14:40])

Key Points:

• The interview includes Berkowitz's denial of a specific crime, showcasing his manipulative tendencies.
• Berlinger reflects on Berkowitz's potential similarities to modern-day school shooters, emphasizing the importance of mental health support.
• The conversation explores Berkowitz's remorse and the authenticity of his transformation into a "born-again Christian."

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7. The Role of the Media

The episode critically examines the media's role in sensationalizing the Son of Sam case, contributing to Berkowitz's infamy.

Notable Quotes:

• Berlinger: "The press was very willing to give this guy the spotlight in a way that I think today would be frowned upon." ([16:47])
• Berlinger: "Jimmy Breslin... kind of baited Berkowitz on the eve of the anniversary of the first killing." ([16:00])

Key Points:

• Pre-internet era media frenzy amplified public fear and media consumption.
• Reporters like Jimmy Breslin engaged directly with Berkowitz, inadvertently escalating the situation.
• The episode draws parallels to today's 24-hour news cycle and social media dynamics, questioning ethical reporting standards.

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8. Reflections on Remorse and Rehabilitation

Berlinger contemplates Berkowitz's claims of remorse and his current persona as the "Son of Hope," debating the sincerity of his transformation.

Notable Quotes:

• Berlinger: "I don't know if his remorse is real." ([17:43])
• Berlinger: "He calls himself the Son of Hope now... but is this sincere?" ([17:43])

Key Points:

• Berkowitz engages in counseling other prisoners and maintains an online presence aimed at reform.
• Berlinger remains skeptical about the authenticity of Berkowitz's newfound ideology, considering the complex nature of criminal rehabilitation.
• The discussion touches on broader themes of redemption and the potential for personal change.

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9. Conclusion and Broader Implications

Alison Stewart wraps up the conversation by highlighting the enduring relevance of the Son of Sam case in understanding criminal psychology and media influence.

Notable Quotes:

• Berlinger: "This is a cautionary tale for a new generation." ([14:40])

Key Points:

• The case serves as an early example of the intertwined relationship between media and criminal notoriety.
• It underscores the critical need for mental health support systems to prevent future tragedies.
• The documentary aims to provide historical context while drawing lessons applicable to contemporary society.

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Final Thoughts:

This episode of All Of It offers a comprehensive exploration of the Son of Sam case through the lens of filmmaker Joe Berller. It not only revisits the historical terror inflicted upon New York City but also critically examines the media's role and the psychological complexities of David Berkowitz. By incorporating rare interviews and personal reflections, the episode provides listeners with a nuanced understanding of one of true crime's most infamous chapters.

Transcript

[Alison Stewart]

This is all of it. I'm Alison Stewart live from the WNYC studios in soho. Thank you for spending a part of your day with us. I'm really grateful you're here. On today's show, Adrian Cassada performs live in studio. He's a songwriter, producer and one half of the band Black Pumas. He has a new solo album out. We'll hear some songs from it. We'll also kick off this month's full body about artist Paul Gauguin, the 19th century self taught French artist. We'll be speaking with Sue Prudho, the author of Wild A Life of Paul Gauguin. And we'll talk about some literary classics with Olivet producer Jordan Loff for our summer reading challenge. And we'll take your calls as well. That is the plan. So let's get this started with Son of Sam. On August 11, 1977, the people of New York City breathed easier the day before the Son of Sam killer was taken into custody. The New York Post had the headline that read Caught. In the late 1970s, New York City was gripped by fear. A gunman calling himself the Son of Sam was shooting young people seemingly at random and taunting police with bizarre threatening letters. For more than a year, the murders and the media frenzy around them held the city hostage. The break came when an eyewitness spotted a parking ticket on the killer's car the night of a shooting and kept insisting that the police located the ticket led police to David Berkowitz in Yonkers, and his arrest set off celebrations across the city. Filmmaker Joe Berlinger focuses on the Son of Sam case in his latest chapter in a career spent telling true crime stories that dig deeper into the headlines From Paradise Lost, the Ted Bundy Tapes, his new Netflix series, Conversations with a Killer, the Son of Sam Tapes features rarely heard 1980s interviews between Berkowitz and prison reporter Jack Jones, as well as Berlinger's own conversation with the killer. The series also revisits the fear that swept the city and the way that Berkowitz Berkowitz manipulated the press. Conversations with the Killer the Son of Sam Tapes is streaming now on Netflix and Joe joins me in studio. Nice to talk to you.

[Joe Berlinger]

Nice to see you again, Alison. How are you?

[Alison Stewart]

I'm doing well. You've covered some of the most infamous serial killers in history.

[Joe Berlinger]

Yes.

[Alison Stewart]

What is it that you wanted to understand about the Son of Sam Cape case?

[Joe Berlinger]

This case I've wanted to do for a while. There's many things that are fascinating about it for me personally I was a teenager when this was all unfolding. I lived in the northern suburbs of Westchester county and somehow my parents allowed me to go into, into New York unaccompanied as a 13 or 14 year old back then. And people forget today, younger people just what a mess New York was. Financial crisis, blackout that summer, half the cops were laid off. And into this kind of hellscape comes a random shooter which gripped the city with fear. And so as a maker of true crime, by the way, it's a phrase I hate, associated with my work. We can talk about that later. But as a maker of crime documentaries, to me this case is a foundational case for why we're so obsessed with true crime today. So one reason is just personal interest. The other reason is just self reflexive looking at where we've come with crime. And the reason I say the Son of Sam case was one of these foundational cases with our fascination with crime is Berkowitz played the press beautifully. You know, most killers, Bundy, Gacy, they want to operate in the shadows and not be caught, not get attention. And David baited the press and famously Jimmy Breslin and others, but most notably Jimmy Breslin, you know, the reporter of the era, was happy to write back to him. They exchanged letters. Some say that Breslin, who I have great respect for, but he did kind of bait Berkowitz on the eve of the anniversary of the first killing. So this was just to me, you know, this kind of codependency of the public, fascinated about crime, obsessed with crime, intersecting with media, only too willing to comply. Look where we are today with people's obsession with true crime. I really do believe this was one of the foundational cases.

[Alison Stewart]

I was 11 years old, I lived in Jersey, I was terrified. Yeah, yeah, no, it was a terrifying time.

[Joe Berlinger]

Yeah, no, this. And interestingly for me too, there was another serial killer operating at the same time, Richard Cottingham, known as the Times Square Killer. And he operated for a much longer period of time, 1969 to 1980, preying upon sex workers in Times Square of that era, which was just a den of iniquity. And yet that didn't grab the headlines, that didn't motivate the police, that didn't have people. People weren't even interested in that case because of course, sadly when it comes to sex workers, the police especially back then, you know, they used to have this term, no human involved, when it was a sex worker who was found in a dumpster or something like that, you know, because of the attitude towards sex workers back then. This case, the Cottingham case, gained zero notoriety at exactly the same time. But Berkowitz was preying upon. Upon young lovers parked in lovers lanes, parked in cars, having a date, and boom, you know, a gun would go in and he'd shoot them. And so it just, you know, people were just fascinated, enthralled, and deeply fearful.

[Alison Stewart]

It's really interesting. I watched all three sections of the documentary. And you talked to police officers in the case. You hear both heartbreaking and fascinating to hear them relive the case. People who were survivors for the officers. Let's start with them. Why was it so difficult to find him?

[Joe Berlinger]

Yeah, and one of the main interviews was with the captain who led the task force back then, Joseph Borelli, who sadly passed away at 93 only two months ago. So I'm sorry he didn't get to see the show. We had a lot of fun in quotation marks, you know, interacting with him, and he was so happy to tell his story. But the other reason this is. To your question, the other reason to me this is a foundational case is this isn't. People forget, you know, this is before computers and police departments routinely did not share information, even within the same nypd, you know, what was going on in the Queens precinct was not communicated with the Bronx precinct. And so despite a very clear indicator that these killings were linked, meaning motive, shooting young couples in cars. But more importantly, he used a very unusual gun. He used the.44 caliber bolt bulldog, which was not a popular gun. It's a very powerful gun. And those guns have what Captain Barelli said was a big piece of lead. You know, the bullet after the shooting that they recovered was, you know, was not the typical bullet. And yet, because in all of these precincts in Manhattan, Brooklyn Queen, they just didn't. They just didn't talk to one another. And so one of the legacies of this case, and you saw that, by the way, with other, you know, Ted Bundy got away for it for years because regional police departments didn't speak to each other. So both Bundy, which happened around this time, and Berkowitz really made the police realize that they need to share information, that they're not competitive with each other. So that was one reason it took forever for him to get caught.

[Alison Stewart]

For the victims and the victims families that you had chance to speak with, what was surprising? What did you not expect to hear from them?

[Joe Berlinger]

Well, I guess the thing that it shouldn't surprise me because, you know, but it's still, you know, it's still with them. You know, Gloria Zangetti was a good friend of Valentina Soriani, who was, I think, the fifth victim. And, you know, the way she told the story 40, almost 50 years ago, they still think about these things every day. And so that, you know, that's something I always try to remind myself. This genre of true crime has lots of detractors, you know, in part because there is some irresponsible outings in this genre. So I always make it a point, you know, to, you know, highlight the victim stories, make sure no victim is upset that we're doing a show. I always ask permission, you know, so the victims in this case, it's like it happened yesterday, you know, you spoke.

[Alison Stewart]

With David Berkowitz for this documentary. How did you prepare for that interview?

[Joe Berlinger]

I did. You know, we did it at the very end of the production. I was not sure I wanted to speak to David Berkowitz, which sounds odd, but really the whole Conversations with a Killer series on Netflix, and this is the fourth season, previously we did Bundy, Gacy and Dahmer. The whole point of the series is that it's based on recordings that we've uncovered much closer to the commission of the crime. So 40, almost 50 years later, and particularly with David Berkowitz, who has flip flopped multiple times over the years. For example, there was in the mid-90s, a very irresponsible conspiracy theory that lives on today that Berkowitz was one of many shooters and that they all belonged to a satanic cult, which we can get into if you want. But I find that horribly irresponsible narrative that still exists today. And in fact, some fans of this story have, you know, dogged me on social media, you know, saying that I haven't told the real story, which I find fascinating. But I debated whether I wanted to talk to him because I didn't want to reframe the narrative for today. But I decided ultimately it was very important to talk to him because one of the things the show documents is a new victim of a surviving victim, this woman named Wendy Savino, who the police now have tagged as actually Berkowitz's first murder. Sorry, first shooting. She didn't die. And he vehemently denies that he was responsible for that particular crime. So I felt an obligation to get his. His point across. So I actually didn't prepare that heavily for it. I had known, you know, I debated the entire production whether I was going to do it.

[Alison Stewart]

Were you concerned about Giving him a voice.

[Joe Berlinger]

Yes, exactly. I mean, that's. Thank you. Yes. I mean, these. These. These documentaries get enough flack from some people, you know, that you shouldn't give a platform to a serial killer. I view this as, you know, a cautionary tale for a new generation. Netflix has a very young audience. I, like, put stories out so people are reminded about how evil happens. And again, as a cautionary tale. But to interview him today and to give him that kind of a platform, I did have some concerns. So he's not really in the show until the very end. He denies the Wendy Savino, and he has his reasons. It was fascinating to me that he really, after admitting to six murders and seven attempted murders, it's interesting to me that this one, which happened before the first murder, that he agrees with why it was so important to him to deny that murder. The other thing he said that made me included in the show, I actually was quite moved by. At the end of the show, I said to him, sorry, at the end of the interview, I said to him, and it occurs at the end of the show now, I said to him, you know, if you could go back to young David, you know, what would you say to him? And he said, run, David. Run. Get help. You know, I could have talked to my mother, not his mother. I could have talked to my father. I could have talked to my sister. And he chose not to. And that really deeply resonated with me because, you know, Dr. Michael Caparelli, who is David's spiritual advisor, actually says this on the show. And it really resonated for me that, you know, I liken Berkowitz more to the school shooter of today. A cry for help, somebody who could have gotten help. I liken Berkowitz more to the school shooter than to the traditional serial killer. I mean, this is hard to say. And, you know, certainly I'm not condoning or placing a value judgment on which murder is kind of murder is worse. It's all horrible. But, you know, Dahmer, Gacy, his mother.

[Alison Stewart]

Died when he was in childbirth.

[Joe Berlinger]

Yeah, yeah. But, you know, Dahmer, Gacy and Bundy, the point I wanted to make is Dahmer, Gacy and Bundy actually got sexual pleasure out of watching the life be extinguished from their victim. Dahmer was a little, you know, he actually didn't enjoy that moment. He knocked them out, but then he would consume body parts, which is horrible thing to say, but this is true. So most serial killers have this desire and need to be intimate with their victims. Whereas Berkowitz, the moment he saw somebody was actually a human being, he did not want to kill them.

[Alison Stewart]

That's why he would shoot them through cars.

[Joe Berlinger]

Exactly. And there's one incident in the show where he came upon, he had a gun ready to shoot and he came upon people stuck in the snow and instead of shooting them, he helped push the car out because he'd rather be a hero than a killer in that moment. So David to me was deeply troubled and we have such a crisis today of young people with mental alienation and mental health issues, particularly young men, that I wanted to include that in the show just to give a clue out there if you know somebody who's like troubled, get them help because a horrible thing could be avoided.

[Alison Stewart]

We're talking with filmmaker Joe Berlinger, director of conversations for the killer. The Son of Sam Tapes, the new Netflix series put it to rest. Did he believe the story of Son of Sam? There was a dog who spoke to him.

[Joe Berlinger]

No, no, it was, he may have justified in his head in that moment. But you know, what's interesting about the tapes and why that we lean into is it's a very clear eyed explanation. He acknowledges that this was, you know, a false story. He staged his apartment the week before to make it look like a madman. This was all just, just a cover. So no, he did not believe that a 6,000 year old demon was talking to him and instructing who to kill through his neighbor Sam Carr's dog.

[Alison Stewart]

You said that he wanted attention in many ways. Good or not or evil. Well, let's say on the evil side of it. How did that need for attention wander over into the evil? He could have easily decided to continue being a good guy working with the firemen.

[Joe Berlinger]

Yeah, I think he just had a lot of built up rage. And the only. And that's the scary thing about people who have rage. And again, we see it with school shooters now or not just school shootings. The only way to satisfy this rage, this feeling of inferiority, you know, he thought his mother died in childbirth. And when he realized that no, no, this was just a tale that his father told him, his adoptive father, to protect him. It was actually an out of wedlock tryst. He went to track down his biological mother and he was deeply disappointed in what he saw and he just felt a lot of, you know, rage and alienation. So he felt that he needed to be important and he baited the press in a way that, you know, is unique.

[Alison Stewart]

What was the press's involvement in all of this? When you look back on it.

[Joe Berlinger]

Well, yeah, I think the press, you know, we forget this is before the 24 hour news cycle. This was before social media. More headlines or more newspaper copies were sold when he was caught. You know what you referenced in your intro that headline caught? More papers were sold in New York that day than on the assassination of John F. Kennedy. Reslin was happy to make a big deal out of it, write letters. I think the press was very willing to give this guy the spotlight in a way that I think today would be frowned upon.

[Alison Stewart]

Today, David Berkowitz presents himself as a born again Christian. In your conversation with him, he said, I wish I could start all over again. I kept everything to myself. The pull was too strong. Do you believe his remorse is real?

[Joe Berlinger]

You know, I didn't. Look, everybody can change. Everybody can, you know, have an epiphany. I haven't spent enough time with him to say so. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. You know, he calls himself the Son of Hope now, not the Son of Sam. He counsels other prisoners. He has a website. Is all of this part of his continuing need to have attention or is this sincere? I honestly don't know. But I do know over the years, what troubles me is, you know, once he was incarcerated, he was only too willing to tell false stories, most notably about this cult. And I made Paradise Lost. I've seen the damage that satanic hysteria can create. You know, people forget in the late 80s, early 90s, there was this massive wave of satanic hysteria sweeping across the country. And the FBI had to say, come out and say, not one child abduction or murder can be attributed to a satanic cult. And one of the foundational texts that helped create this was Maury Terry's book Ultimate An Investigation into America's most, you know, Satanic Cult. Most Dangerous Satanic cult. And this helped create this crazy conspiracy theory.

[Alison Stewart]

The name of the series is Conversations with a the Son of Sam Tapes. It's streaming on Netflix now. Joe, thanks for coming in.

[Joe Berlinger]

Thank you for having me.

[Alison Stewart]

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