Alison Stewart (4:48)

I was 11 years old, I lived in Jersey, I was terrified. Yeah, yeah, no, it was a terrifying time.

Joe Berlinger (4:54)

Yeah, no, this. And interestingly for me too, there was another serial killer operating at the same time, Richard Cottingham, known as the Times Square Killer. And he operated for a much longer period of time, 1969 to 1980, preying upon sex workers in Times Square of that era, which was just a den of iniquity. And yet that didn't grab the headlines, that didn't motivate the police, that didn't have people. People weren't even interested in that case because of course, sadly when it comes to sex workers, the police especially back then, you know, they used to have this term, no human involved, when it was a sex worker who was found in a dumpster or something like that, you know, because of the attitude towards sex workers back then. This case, the Cottingham case, gained zero notoriety at exactly the same time. But Berkowitz was preying upon. Upon young lovers parked in lovers lanes, parked in cars, having a date, and boom, you know, a gun would go in and he'd shoot them. And so it just, you know, people were just fascinated, enthralled, and deeply fearful.

Alison Stewart (5:59)

It's really interesting. I watched all three sections of the documentary. And you talked to police officers in the case. You hear both heartbreaking and fascinating to hear them relive the case. People who were survivors for the officers. Let's start with them. Why was it so difficult to find him?

Joe Berlinger (6:19)

Yeah, and one of the main interviews was with the captain who led the task force back then, Joseph Borelli, who sadly passed away at 93 only two months ago. So I'm sorry he didn't get to see the show. We had a lot of fun in quotation marks, you know, interacting with him, and he was so happy to tell his story. But the other reason this is. To your question, the other reason to me this is a foundational case is this isn't. People forget, you know, this is before computers and police departments routinely did not share information, even within the same nypd, you know, what was going on in the Queens precinct was not communicated with the Bronx precinct. And so despite a very clear indicator that these killings were linked, meaning motive, shooting young couples in cars. But more importantly, he used a very unusual gun. He used the.44 caliber bolt bulldog, which was not a popular gun. It's a very powerful gun. And those guns have what Captain Barelli said was a big piece of lead. You know, the bullet after the shooting that they recovered was, you know, was not the typical bullet. And yet, because in all of these precincts in Manhattan, Brooklyn Queen, they just didn't. They just didn't talk to one another. And so one of the legacies of this case, and you saw that, by the way, with other, you know, Ted Bundy got away for it for years because regional police departments didn't speak to each other. So both Bundy, which happened around this time, and Berkowitz really made the police realize that they need to share information, that they're not competitive with each other. So that was one reason it took forever for him to get caught.

Alison Stewart (8:06)

For the victims and the victims families that you had chance to speak with, what was surprising? What did you not expect to hear from them?

Joe Berlinger (8:16)

Well, I guess the thing that it shouldn't surprise me because, you know, but it's still, you know, it's still with them. You know, Gloria Zangetti was a good friend of Valentina Soriani, who was, I think, the fifth victim. And, you know, the way she told the story 40, almost 50 years ago, they still think about these things every day. And so that, you know, that's something I always try to remind myself. This genre of true crime has lots of detractors, you know, in part because there is some irresponsible outings in this genre. So I always make it a point, you know, to, you know, highlight the victim stories, make sure no victim is upset that we're doing a show. I always ask permission, you know, so the victims in this case, it's like it happened yesterday, you know, you spoke.

Alison Stewart (9:10)

With David Berkowitz for this documentary. How did you prepare for that interview?

Joe Berlinger (9:14)

I did. You know, we did it at the very end of the production. I was not sure I wanted to speak to David Berkowitz, which sounds odd, but really the whole Conversations with a Killer series on Netflix, and this is the fourth season, previously we did Bundy, Gacy and Dahmer. The whole point of the series is that it's based on recordings that we've uncovered much closer to the commission of the crime. So 40, almost 50 years later, and particularly with David Berkowitz, who has flip flopped multiple times over the years. For example, there was in the mid-90s, a very irresponsible conspiracy theory that lives on today that Berkowitz was one of many shooters and that they all belonged to a satanic cult, which we can get into if you want. But I find that horribly irresponsible narrative that still exists today. And in fact, some fans of this story have, you know, dogged me on social media, you know, saying that I haven't told the real story, which I find fascinating. But I debated whether I wanted to talk to him because I didn't want to reframe the narrative for today. But I decided ultimately it was very important to talk to him because one of the things the show documents is a new victim of a surviving victim, this woman named Wendy Savino, who the police now have tagged as actually Berkowitz's first murder. Sorry, first shooting. She didn't die. And he vehemently denies that he was responsible for that particular crime. So I felt an obligation to get his. His point across. So I actually didn't prepare that heavily for it. I had known, you know, I debated the entire production whether I was going to do it.

Alison Stewart (11:07)

Were you concerned about Giving him a voice.

Joe Berlinger (11:09)

Yes, exactly. I mean, that's. Thank you. Yes. I mean, these. These. These documentaries get enough flack from some people, you know, that you shouldn't give a platform to a serial killer. I view this as, you know, a cautionary tale for a new generation. Netflix has a very young audience. I, like, put stories out so people are reminded about how evil happens. And again, as a cautionary tale. But to interview him today and to give him that kind of a platform, I did have some concerns. So he's not really in the show until the very end. He denies the Wendy Savino, and he has his reasons. It was fascinating to me that he really, after admitting to six murders and seven attempted murders, it's interesting to me that this one, which happened before the first murder, that he agrees with why it was so important to him to deny that murder. The other thing he said that made me included in the show, I actually was quite moved by. At the end of the show, I said to him, sorry, at the end of the interview, I said to him, and it occurs at the end of the show now, I said to him, you know, if you could go back to young David, you know, what would you say to him? And he said, run, David. Run. Get help. You know, I could have talked to my mother, not his mother. I could have talked to my father. I could have talked to my sister. And he chose not to. And that really deeply resonated with me because, you know, Dr. Michael Caparelli, who is David's spiritual advisor, actually says this on the show. And it really resonated for me that, you know, I liken Berkowitz more to the school shooter of today. A cry for help, somebody who could have gotten help. I liken Berkowitz more to the school shooter than to the traditional serial killer. I mean, this is hard to say. And, you know, certainly I'm not condoning or placing a value judgment on which murder is kind of murder is worse. It's all horrible. But, you know, Dahmer, Gacy, his mother.

Alison Stewart (13:23)

Died when he was in childbirth.

Joe Berlinger (13:25)

Yeah, yeah. But, you know, Dahmer, Gacy and Bundy, the point I wanted to make is Dahmer, Gacy and Bundy actually got sexual pleasure out of watching the life be extinguished from their victim. Dahmer was a little, you know, he actually didn't enjoy that moment. He knocked them out, but then he would consume body parts, which is horrible thing to say, but this is true. So most serial killers have this desire and need to be intimate with their victims. Whereas Berkowitz, the moment he saw somebody was actually a human being, he did not want to kill them.

Alison Stewart (13:59)

That's why he would shoot them through cars.

Joe Berlinger (14:01)

Exactly. And there's one incident in the show where he came upon, he had a gun ready to shoot and he came upon people stuck in the snow and instead of shooting them, he helped push the car out because he'd rather be a hero than a killer in that moment. So David to me was deeply troubled and we have such a crisis today of young people with mental alienation and mental health issues, particularly young men, that I wanted to include that in the show just to give a clue out there if you know somebody who's like troubled, get them help because a horrible thing could be avoided.

Alison Stewart (14:40)

We're talking with filmmaker Joe Berlinger, director of conversations for the killer. The Son of Sam Tapes, the new Netflix series put it to rest. Did he believe the story of Son of Sam? There was a dog who spoke to him.

Joe Berlinger (14:58)

No, no, it was, he may have justified in his head in that moment. But you know, what's interesting about the tapes and why that we lean into is it's a very clear eyed explanation. He acknowledges that this was, you know, a false story. He staged his apartment the week before to make it look like a madman. This was all just, just a cover. So no, he did not believe that a 6,000 year old demon was talking to him and instructing who to kill through his neighbor Sam Carr's dog.

Alison Stewart (15:32)

You said that he wanted attention in many ways. Good or not or evil. Well, let's say on the evil side of it. How did that need for attention wander over into the evil? He could have easily decided to continue being a good guy working with the firemen.

Joe Berlinger (15:53)

Yeah, I think he just had a lot of built up rage. And the only. And that's the scary thing about people who have rage. And again, we see it with school shooters now or not just school shootings. The only way to satisfy this rage, this feeling of inferiority, you know, he thought his mother died in childbirth. And when he realized that no, no, this was just a tale that his father told him, his adoptive father, to protect him. It was actually an out of wedlock tryst. He went to track down his biological mother and he was deeply disappointed in what he saw and he just felt a lot of, you know, rage and alienation. So he felt that he needed to be important and he baited the press in a way that, you know, is unique.

Alison Stewart (16:42)

What was the press's involvement in all of this? When you look back on it.

Joe Berlinger (16:47)

Well, yeah, I think the press, you know, we forget this is before the 24 hour news cycle. This was before social media. More headlines or more newspaper copies were sold when he was caught. You know what you referenced in your intro that headline caught? More papers were sold in New York that day than on the assassination of John F. Kennedy. Reslin was happy to make a big deal out of it, write letters. I think the press was very willing to give this guy the spotlight in a way that I think today would be frowned upon.

Alison Stewart (17:30)

Today, David Berkowitz presents himself as a born again Christian. In your conversation with him, he said, I wish I could start all over again. I kept everything to myself. The pull was too strong. Do you believe his remorse is real?

Joe Berlinger (17:43)

You know, I didn't. Look, everybody can change. Everybody can, you know, have an epiphany. I haven't spent enough time with him to say so. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. You know, he calls himself the Son of Hope now, not the Son of Sam. He counsels other prisoners. He has a website. Is all of this part of his continuing need to have attention or is this sincere? I honestly don't know. But I do know over the years, what troubles me is, you know, once he was incarcerated, he was only too willing to tell false stories, most notably about this cult. And I made Paradise Lost. I've seen the damage that satanic hysteria can create. You know, people forget in the late 80s, early 90s, there was this massive wave of satanic hysteria sweeping across the country. And the FBI had to say, come out and say, not one child abduction or murder can be attributed to a satanic cult. And one of the foundational texts that helped create this was Maury Terry's book Ultimate An Investigation into America's most, you know, Satanic Cult. Most Dangerous Satanic cult. And this helped create this crazy conspiracy theory.

Alison Stewart (19:03)

The name of the series is Conversations with a the Son of Sam Tapes. It's streaming on Netflix now. Joe, thanks for coming in.

Joe Berlinger (19:11)

Thank you for having me.

Alison Stewart (19:13)

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