← All Of It with Alison Stewart
All Of It with Alison Stewart
Nick Cave and Barkley Hendricks at Jack Shaiman Gallery
00:31:19
Jack Shaiman Gallery is displaying work from Barkley Hendricks and Nick Cave in both of its new York locations.
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- [00:00]
Alison Stewart
All of it is supported by Progressive Insurance. You chose to hit play on this podcast today. Smart Choice. Make another smart choice with Auto Quote Explorer to compare rates for multiple car insurance companies all at once. Try it@progressive.com, progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy.
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Nick Cave
Listener Supported WNYC Studios.
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Elizabeth Sohn
This is all of it. I'm Alison Stewart live from the WNYC studios in soho. Thanks for spending part of your day with us. I'm really grateful you're here. On today's show, director Peter Berg is here to talk about his new Netflix series, American Primeval. We'll also be joined by the playwright and two stars from the Pulitzer Prize winning play English, which is now on Broadway. And author Pagan Kennedy is here to discuss her new book, the Secret History of the Rape A True Crime Story. That's the plan. So let's get this started with artist Nick Cave, a well known name in the New York City gallery scene, has a new space and a new show and both are breathtaking. The Jack Shaiman Gallery has opened a 22,000 square square foot gallery at 46 Lafayette Street. It is an 1898 Italian Revival building complete with marble columns and an ornate ceiling. Now when you enter the gallery, standing in the middle of the room is a 26 foot high sculpture of a body that is adorned with flowers and whose torso explodes upward into branches and twigs featuring birds resting about then right behind it is a smaller sculpture, a heartbreaking piece telling the tale of two black men. They're face down. The sculptures are surrounded by wall pieces made of needlepoint and antique trays that are bursting with flowers. The show is called Amalgams and Graphs and is by Nick Cave. It can be seen at the new Jack shaiman gallery until March 15th. Nick Cave joins me now. Hi Nick.
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Nick Cave
Hello. Hello. How are you?
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Elizabeth Sohn
I'm well, thank you. So what were your first conversations like about you creating this big piece of work?
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Nick Cave
Well, you know, I've been trying to get to this scale for quite some time. You know, I'm thinking, you know, for me it was really sort of thinking about sort of, you know, how do I get the work out into the public space outside of institutions and museums and galleries as far as that goes to where it's more accessible to the public. And so, you know, this is my first attempt at making my first 26 foot bronze.
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Elizabeth Sohn
And I understand, you know, it's a man's figure, but it's your figure as well.
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Nick Cave
Yes, yes. The actual body was My body scanned and then we basically scanned all the additional sort of materials to build these sort of abundance of adornment all over the body.
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Elizabeth Sohn
I want to let people know that I took pictures when I was at the opening of your show. And we just put them on Instagram at all of it wnyc so people can see the pictures and you can see the size of it. What was challenging about thinking about how to fill that space and what was exciting about it?
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Nick Cave
You know, what was. I don't know if anything was challenging. I think what it was that was exciting was that I think first and foremost, it's really sort of, for me, it's always been about the work. When I was asked to open up the new space to be the inaugural artist for this new space, you know, I knew that what that meant, but, you know, I sort of really kept it separate from what I was making and the space. The thing that's interesting to me, it's not just what I'm making in terms of the art, but it's also the other part of making is putting the show together. So bringing the work to the space. And for me it's like choreography. It's really, you know, sort of figuring out where are the placements of the objects and then also thinking about the audience and how do you anticipate the audience sort of moving through the space and what are they encountering in that sort of quest of experiencing the show? So I'm sort of always. It's not only what I'm producing and creating in the studio, but it's also now sort of how do I bring the work to the space where it becomes cohesive, where it sort of thinks about the architecture and its relationship to.
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Elizabeth Sohn
The work, the sculptures describes an evolution of your sound suits. We had you on the get show a couple years ago when you had the show at the Guggenheim. How would you describe it as an evolution of the sound suits?
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Nick Cave
Well, I think it's an evolution because we're moving, you know, into bronze. We're moving into 26 foot in terms of scale and just really sort of creating this sort of beacon of sorts. And that's going to live outside. That's the sort of exciting thing. It's again, you know, we still have large populations that don't frequent museums or galleries. And so how do we get our work into this sort of public space where more have access to it?
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Elizabeth Sohn
The skin has so much detail on it. Small roses. And it's a sirocco style, sort of a well known ornamental style. People see a lot in Art Deco. Why did you cover your man in flowers? You gave him his flowers early. Why did you cover him in flowers?
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Nick Cave
You know, this is Father Earth is the way that I see it. And. And for me, it's really sort of, again, sort of thinking about, you know, when I sort of plant my feet on the ground and just connecting to the earth in that sort of way and sort of from that, you know, building this sort of. This sort of rhythm, this sort of synergy that's moving up from the feet, through the body, up through the arms, as if, you know, I'm sort of stretching beyond the universe. And that stretch then allows her to be these branches that become this migration hub for birds of a feather.
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Elizabeth Sohn
Yeah, it's sort of interesting because as he blossoms out and he stretches out into these limbs, and there's birds and there's pods, you know, it could be scary to some people. It could be possibilities to some. To someone else. What were you thinking when you decided what his head. Not his head, his. His upper torso should be like?
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Nick Cave
You know, I was thinking really, about this sort of extended sort of outreach from. From one perspective. But then I was also thinking about, you know, you know, the piece is made up of all sorts of birds, from, you know, eagles to crows to hawks to doves to falcons and. And many more. And it's really sort of like, you know, I'm looking at it as this migration of a place that they all come together, and then within that sort of network is this sort of infrastructure that happens the way in which, you know, collectively, we as humans do. And so, you know, I was sort of thinking about, you know, this idea of being in flight in moments of rest.
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Elizabeth Sohn
My guest is Nick Cave. Amalgams and graphs can be seen at the Jack shaman gallery at 46 Lafayette street until March 15th. So that's amalgam. The origin one, the origin. And then next behind it is amalgam, the plot. And it's somewhat of a heartbreaking piece. Two men flat on their stomachs, possibly the result of violence, but they're also surrounded by, like, a little garden. Little. I guess you'd call it a garden. What inspired this piece?
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Nick Cave
You know, this is the death of the sound suit. And the death of the sounds of suit is in reflection. It reflects on the black and brown bodies, the ongoing fatal and fatal violence projected on black and brown bodies by those who serve and protect. And so this is sort of my sort of continuation of my work that has always been sort of rooted in. In sort of addressing those issues. And within that, you know, you see that the head is of a gramophone. One is facing upward, which within that is this sort of garden plot, this bloom that's happening. So, you know, I'm thinking it's that garden plot as we know it, or is this really the afterlife? Is this the new birth? And then the other body is facing downward. And so the gramophone, as we know, makes sound and projects sound. This is silenced by the head being onto the ground. And so it's really sort of these two sort of conflict moments where in matter of a second, your life could be over. And also that, you know, do we, you know, this lack of communication or communication and you know, how that is read or perceived. And so it's really this sort of very conflicting, kind of traumatizing sort of expression. But I was interested in this idea of, you know, one piece, the 26 piece, you're looking up as far as you can possibly see, and then the piece that's on the ground, you're looking downward. So the body sort of finds its sort of this motion of looking upward and then also looking down. And so you're struggling between these two emotions that are really, really heavy. But, you know, at the same time, it's about optimism, it's about hope, it's about paying homage, it's about sort of coming to terms with all that. You know, one part of the body on the one that's on the ground is surrounded by doorstops. And as a young man, my grandmother said that when the spirit of the body passes, it always finds its way back home. And it remains home through the mourning process. And when that is complete, which could be six months, it could be a year, then the front door and back door left open. So the body can then set itself free.
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Elizabeth Sohn
That's beautiful. There are needlework and these beautiful black vintage trays on the sides around their sculptures. They're sculptures, they're. They're pieces that are set on the walls, various black faces, sometimes part of the black faces, sometimes adorning black faces. When did you discover the black trays, those vintage black trays you find in the flea market?
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Nick Cave
Well, you know, I started collecting them maybe a year or two ago. Not sure why at that very moment. But I was interested in this sort of the serving tray. And I was interested in particularly the serving trays that were hand. That all of a sudden there was this hand painted floral pattern that was applied to it. But as I started to do research, you know, that whole painting on the tray had to do with the moment the tray showed anywhere, such as rust. And this is, was their way of preserving the tray by painting over the rust. So I was interested in that aspect of it. I was interested in sort of the time and the care that someone took to paint this sort of amazing floral relief onto the tray. I mean, they're like so beautiful and so well executed, but I was interested in that. I was interested in that. The moment you painted on the tray, you're recovering a part of the past, part of history. So that was interesting as I was thinking about that and the fact that history within the black culture was sort of being removed from the libraries. And so I was thinking about, you know, how history continues to be sort of redefined, reimagined, or completely sort of suppressed. And so that became interesting to me. But then the moment that I started to cut the trade, the realm around the tray, then that sort of even suppressed that message even more. So it was me sort of thinking about that and then also this sort of revival aspect of it as well. So therefore the tray then became this sort of painterly sort of surface for my work. And so which then I incorporated that with needlepoint. And these needle points are sub portraits. And it's really me sort of coming out of the sound suit. So it's just sort of coming out sort of moment within my practice and revealing my identity through this sort of process. But I was thinking about painting for about three years and I'm like, oh, what does that mean? And I'm like, ah, I'm confused. I don't know. I don't think it's acrylic, I don't think it's oil paint. And then all of a sudden, need a part came into mind which was so like perfect because I am a maker. And so it just made sense, you know, one that mixed with my hands and so need a point. The appearance of it is very much the same way that you would sort of look at painting. It's, you know, it's a very sort of, for me, it's very modern, it's very legible. It's again a way of building the surface. But then the trades and the needle point together becomes this assemblage of color pattern, this sort of floral decadence of sorts. You know, I'm thinking about like 19th century floral still lives. And you know, on top of the needle point, on top of the trays, or there's this, what I can, what I call this sort of bouquet. But I'm thinking about like, then does the trade then become the backdrop within this sort of space, within the room and Am I inviting you for tea? Think about the tray and trey serves as we think about social sort of gatherings and invitations of sorts.
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Elizabeth Sohn
The show is called Amalgams and Graphs at the Jack Shaiman Gallery at 46 Lafayette St. Until March 15. It is by Nick Cave. You have to go and see it. Nick, thanks for being with us.
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Nick Cave
Thank you. It was great.
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Alison Stewart
All of it is supported by Progressive Insurance. You chose to hit play on this podcast today. Smart Choice make another smart choice with Auto Quote Explorer to compare rates from multiple car insurance companies all at once. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy.
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Nick Cave
If it's time for you to say goodbye to your car, truck, boat, motorcycle or rv, consider donating it to wnyc. We'll turn the proceeds from the sale of your vehicle or watercraft into the in depth news and programming that keeps our community informed. Donating is easy, the pickup is free and you'll get a tax deduction. Learn more@wnyc.org car this week on the New Yorker Radio Hour, Secretary of State Antony Blinken on a path to peace in the Middle East.
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Elizabeth Sohn
I've also had many opportunities to meet with Prime Minister Netanyahu and when the conversation comes to normalization with Saudi Arabia, he knows that for Israel too, that would be an absolute game changer.
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Nick Cave
Antony Blinken's final exit interview. That's the New Yorker Radio Hour from WNYC Studios. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.
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Elizabeth Sohn
This is all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. We continue with the second opening from the Jack Shaiman Gallery, this time in Chelsea and this time with a soundtrack. The show is called Space is the Place and it features the artwork of Barclay L. Hendricks. You may remember his show at the Frick, which was paired detailed portraiture with Renaissance paintings. In this show you get another view of the artist. There are amazing portraits, but there is also a look into how he views space as in the moon. And yes, the title takes its name from the Sun Ra album.
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Nick Cave
Made It Play, Made in the Place, Make It Fade.
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Elizabeth Sohn
Space is a place at the Jack Shaman Gallery, this time on West 20th Street. Joining me now is the curator of Space Is the Place, Elizabeth Sohn. Nice to meet you.
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Jack Shaiman
Nice to see you.
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Elizabeth Sohn
And the gallery's namesake, Jack Shaiman. Nice to meet you, Jack.
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Jack Shaiman
You too. Hello.
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Elizabeth Sohn
So Hendrix died at 72 in 2017, but you met Barclay Hendrix Elizabeth, will you share that story with us?
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Jack Shaiman
Yeah. Well, so we. I was lucky enough to work with him for almost 10 years before he passed away, and we traveled to different shows together. And it was, you know, such a relationship that I value so much.
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Elizabeth Sohn
How about for you? When did you meet Barclay?
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Jack Shaiman
Gosh, it has to have been at least 18 or 20 years ago. And we also developed a very close and amazing friendship. I learned so much from Barclay over the years. I can't even begin to tell you one thing.
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Elizabeth Sohn
You learned from Barclay.
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Jack Shaiman
To be steadfast in your beliefs. And if you believe something, no matter what, you believe it. And, you know, what's amazing with Barclay is he's still influencing pop culture from his grave. And I should think that's like, a really sign of greatness.
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Elizabeth Sohn
How would you describe Barclay's work to someone we've never seen him before?
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Jack Shaiman
I would say Barkley always said this about himself, that he just painted what he saw. And so he is the perpetual observer and what he was seeing. You know, he grew up in Philly. He was painting people on the street that he would encounter every day. In Philadelphia, he was painting and photographing and drawing everyday life. And later moved to Connecticut to Yale, where he was in the MFA program from 1970 to 1972. And there he again marched to his own drum. He didn't care what anyone else was doing. He just did Barkley.
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Elizabeth Sohn
So what is the theme of space is the place?
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Jack Shaiman
So one thing that Berkeley, you know, he's known for his portraits, but it wasn't until he showed us some works on paper, a couple in his lifetime, but we didn't really talk deeply about them. But it wasn't until after he passed away that we really discovered the depth and the breadth of that series. And almost all of them have a little nod to eclipses or sun flares or something cosmic. And it's something Jack and I have always discussed and we've always had in the back of our heads. But it wasn't something we fully explored until now. And I think it's a good time with, you know, earthly troubles being what they are. It's a good time to think about space and the kind of the hopeful, optimistic view of space.
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Elizabeth Sohn
When was most of the work in this show done?
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Jack Shaiman
The 70s. It was all done between most of it, 1970 and 1979, and with a few outliers. Some of the paintings are in the early 80s, and there's one landscape from the 90s.
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Elizabeth Sohn
Jack, why did you want to have Barclay, Hendrix and Nick Cave opening almost simultaneously at your two galleries?
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Jack Shaiman
Well, that's a good question. Well, in terms of Nick for the new space, it was almost like a given when Nick and Bob came early on to see the space. I mean, Nick and I kind of looked at each other and was like, you have to be the. You're the opening show. Like, this is just a fact. And Nick had been the opening show at our space, the School, a space we have upstate in Kinderhook, New York. And one thing is that he always takes it to another level, each exhibition. And because of, you know, the show he had at the Guggenheim, he kind of stepped back for a couple of years, really reflecting on what was next. And, you know, the timing was just fortuitous because to be able to open the space with that exhibition where it wasn't just taking up a couple levels, he took it up, like a hundred levels. And so I'm so proud of that. And then, you know, in terms of 20th street, it just. To tell you the truth, although it's brilliant, it was just almost coincidental. I wish I could take credit for it, but sometimes things that go, life is good. And it had been on the schedule for a long time. But what we'd been debating is what to do, because there's a lot of Barclays works that people don't know. You know, everybody kind of focuses on the paintings. And Berkeley always said his best paintings were his landscapes.
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Elizabeth Sohn
So that's very interesting. A lot of the pictures, as you said, Elizabeth, are moons. There's one called no Moon at All for Phineas, and a beautiful painting of the moon going through its different phases. What was so special about the moon to him at this point?
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Jack Shaiman
Well, so we found out. So unfortunately, I had to do a lot of this research posthumously. But what we found out was there were three solar eclipses that passed over the northeastern United States in the decade of the 70s. And so that had to be what influenced him. And so that plays a role. But there is also, you know, there's a piece in the show that's a direct nod to Sun Ra as well, who's the grandfather of Afrofuturism in music and all these kind of interplays. And we found out also that they were both at Festac 77 together. Although whether or not they crossed paths, that's another story.
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Elizabeth Sohn
Yeah, we should say that Space is the place's name of a song on album and a movie of the same name. We pulled a little clip. Let's take a listen.
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Nick Cave
After the End of the World don't.
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Elizabeth Sohn
You know that yet?
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Nick Cave
It's after the end of the world.
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Elizabeth Sohn
Don'T you know that yet?
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Nick Cave
It's after the end of the world don't you know that yet? It's after the end of the world.
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Elizabeth Sohn
Don'T you know that yet? It's after the end of the world don't you know that yet? After the end of the world I'm looking at Kate. That's not exactly the clip I wanted. Is that it? No, that's it. Okay. That's from Sun Ra. Space Is the place still pertinent? It still does. You know, it's kind of interesting, though, because I've been watching the movie. I watched a little bit of it. He's sort of dressed as a pharaoh in the beginning. And then I thought, oh, there are pyramids in some of his paintings.
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Jack Shaiman
Right, right. And we even went so far as to paint a pyramid on the wall. But, yeah, I mean, for Sun Ra, Egypt is definitely this place of the past. You know, with the pyramids being this incredible architectural feat and the present as they're still standing, and the future, you know, the possibilities of what. What could be life for black people. What other ingenuities are to come. And Berkeley, in his works on paper, there are several pyramids. And that has to be a nod to Sun Ra as well. And in fact, in the piece, the work on paper, that's a tribute to Sun Ra, it's called Tiny Pyramids for Sun Ra. And there are tiny pyramids floating in space.
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Elizabeth Sohn
My guests are Elizabeth sun and Jack Shaiman. We're talking about Space Is the Place an exhibit of Barclay Hendrix at the Jack Shaiman Gallery until February 22nd on West 20th Street, I should say. But we do see a few portraits. And one of the first portraits you see is of Barclay Hendrix. And it's interesting, Jack, because his eyes actually. You can't actually see. There's a little bit of a bar across his eyes.
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Jack Shaiman
They're really cool sunglasses.
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Elizabeth Sohn
Oh, they're school sunglasses.
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Jack Shaiman
Really cool wraparound sunglasses. I don't know how else to describe them. But what's interesting is in a lot of Barclays portraits over the years, you could see the reflection of the sitter. You could see his reflection, I mean, in their glasses, in a belt buckle, in something shiny. Sometimes it was in the mar. Yeah. Sometimes it was very hard to see, but you could finally see it, those glasses. That form is kind of an abstracted view reflection of his windows in his studio, I believe.
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Do you think so?
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Yeah.
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Elizabeth Sohn
There's another Large painting, Full Moon, where two men are holding up a woman. It looks like she's being baptized in the back. What stands out to you about this painting?
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Jack Shaiman
It's very minimalist for Barkley. I mean, his paintings are minimalist, but they are photorealistic at the same time. And he used to say, nobody paints fabric like me. You can really feel the texture of the fabric in his works. And this. They're flat. The figures are flat, although their robes are draped and textured. And it's this kind of abstraction for Berkeley. It's barclarian, to borrow a word from his widow, Susan. Abstraction. And it is this kind of. It's a strange scene for him, a baptism also. So having this kind of transcendent spiritual moment, be abstracted, I thought it fit in well with the theme of the show and this kind of cosmic spirituality. And something. Something that's. Things that are earthly are also bound in the heavens.
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Elizabeth Sohn
All right, let's talk about the room in the back with the black lights on the paintings. What are these three paintings of?
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Jack Shaiman
They're eclipses. So the center of the eclipse, the dark spots in the eclipse are rendered all with graphite. And in the black light, they're as dark as can be. Complete voids. And then these illuminated rings, the solar flares, and the sun flares around it, light up in dayglo paint and music plays.
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Elizabeth Sohn
So, Jack, when you go in that space and you see these paintings, these dark paintings, and then you hear the music, what are you experiencing?
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Jack Shaiman
It is truly transcendent. We did not realize at first when we saw these works that they were meant to be seen under black light. So for us to finally put them. A lot of his works on paper have phosphorescent paint in it. And what happens is it just enhances it to such an extent. The first time I walked in there, I was just blown away, but really proud that Elizabeth found a way to show the works as Barclay had intended.
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Elizabeth Sohn
I understand the Soul Jazz Orchestra is playing the music. Is that right or.
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Jack Shaiman
No, it's. Soul Jazz Records curated the playlist for us, and they had done a playlist, or an lp, actually, for a show, a group show that traveled, originated at the Tate Modern in London. It was called the Soul of a Nation, and Barclay Hendricks was featured prominently in that show. And Barkley's painting graces the COVID of that lp. And so I had thought, you know, you can't divorce Barkley's work from music. It's such a part of it. The piece you mentioned earlier, no moon for Phineas is a reference to a Phineas Newborn album and song. And there's just references all over his work. So this is how he made them within the context of this kind of music. And so this is how we should be looking at them too. And so soul jazz was really excited and lovely to work with, and I gave them carte blanche to make a cosmic playlist for us and they delivered.
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Elizabeth Sohn
Before we go, I have to ask you about the new space. 46 Lafayette street this beautiful space, beautiful ceilings, a vault that's like still intact on the floor. How did you know it was going to be your new space?
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Jack Shaiman
Well, good question. We'd been looking. Carlos, my partner and I had been looking for a space for quite a while, close to a decade. Probably a lot of things came and went or fell through too expensive, yada yada, Superstorm Sandy, yada yada. And we'd been looking. And honestly, I never thought of a historic space like that. But when we went in and we saw the volume, we were just kind of blown away and taken with it. And for months we tried to convince ourselves not to do it because honestly, 21,000 square feet and there's barely a wall or two in the whole place. So that was a problem for a gallery and we just, we were kind of concerned about it. But honestly, the space seduced us. And I really love the historic and the contemporary juxtaposed together. I really like what happens there. There's a kind of energy that's created also just with the size of it, having the opportunities to do full fledged shows, something like with Nick Cave that we have now, where you set up a sculpture that large and all those possibilities.
- [32:53]
Elizabeth Sohn
Well, you have two shows to see from Jack Shaman, Eustace, Nick cave at the 46 Lafayette, and the Barclay Hendrix space is the place at the Jack shaman gallery until February 22nd. Jack and Elizabeth, thanks so much for being with us.
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Jack Shaiman
Thank you, Alison.
- [33:11]
Alison Stewart
WNYC Studios is supported by Carnegie hall, which presents The Orchestra of St. Luke's performing Leonard Bernstein's Kaddish Symphony, set to text by Samuel Pizarre, commemorating the 80th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz, January 29th. Tickets and information@carnegiehall.org NYC now delivers breaking news, top headlines and in depth coverage from WNYC and Gothamist every morning, midday and evening. By sponsoring our programming, you'll reach a community of passionate listeners in an uncluttered audio experience. Visit sponsorship wnyc.org to learn more.