All Of It with Alison Stewart (WNYC)

Episode: "NYPD Whistleblower Edwin Raymond Tells His Story"

Air Date: December 27, 2023

Episode Overview

This episode centers on Edwin Raymond—a former NYPD officer, whistleblower, and author—who joined the force with hopes of transforming and uplifting his Brooklyn community. Instead, Raymond encountered obstacles including arrest quotas, implicit bias, and unyielding leadership. The conversation explores his experiences within the NYPD, his decisions to challenge systemic issues, and the psychological toll of his journey. Host Alison Stewart guides the discussion, delving into Raymond’s upbringing in East Flatbush, the realities of Black officers in the force, and his vision for police reform.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Edwin Raymond’s Upbringing and Perspectives on Policing (03:10–08:18)

• Childhood in East Flatbush:
  • Raymond recalls growing up amid “gunshots every night” and the crack cocaine epidemic, juxtaposed with the warmth of a close-knit Caribbean immigrant community.
    • “Crack cocaine was still very prevalent.. but simultaneously, being a kid, you don't realize what you're in. So it was also growing up in a community that was still coming together.” (03:10–03:37)
  • The loss of his mother, his father’s illness, poverty, and resilience that became formative.
• Early Encounters with Police:
  • As a child, Edwin saw police as the “good guys,” but his perception shifted after news stories like the abuses against Abner Louima and Amadou Diallo, both incidents affecting Black New Yorkers.
    • “That’s the first time I questioned and said, whoa, what’s going on here?” (04:51–05:50)
• “The Talk”:
  • After the Diallo shooting, Edwin’s father spoke to him about racism, explaining:
    • “Because of the body that you’re in as a Black man... you have to work very hard... you can't afford to make any mistakes, especially because we’re so poor.” (06:01–06:36)

2. Decision to Become a Police Officer (06:41–08:18)

• Initially skeptical, Raymond’s perspective shifted after suffering police abuse himself and seeing someone from his own Haitian background (“Uncle Nixon”) in uniform at a local parade.
  • “I saw him... in uniform, cops were just nameless faces driving by... but seeing him there… I said, you know what, this is what I need to do.” (06:41–08:05)
• The idea of transforming policing from within became tangible.
  • “When I saw Nixon, it became tangible, it became real.” (08:11–08:18)

3. Race and Policing: The Silence in the Academy (08:18–11:41)

• Race as a Taboo Subject:

  • Raymond notes the reluctance of police culture—even during training—to address issues of race:
    • “We’re a nation of cowards... Not discussing race robs us of the language and the experience to have our own truth and reconciliation.” (08:37–09:39)
  • He challenged this silence among peers—sometimes to their eventual gratitude.
    • “I never heard of redlining. I looked it up and, wow, I can’t believe this existed.” (09:40–10:39)

• Implicit Bias Moment:

  • A police academy instructor attempted to warn new officers about implicit bias but instead reinforced stereotypes, saying:
    • “The department is getting more and more diverse. We’re starting to look more and more like perps.” (10:54–11:41)
  • Raymond reflects on how deeply ingrained these biases remain, even among those attempting to do good.

4. Internal Culture and the Struggles of Black Officers (11:41–15:07)

• Job “Not Real”:

  • A sergeant once criticized Raymond for treating police work as mission-driven:
    • “My problem, unfortunately, is that I expected the NYPD to deliver on its mission statement... She said, within a few months, she realized this just isn't what it is.” (11:46–12:29)

• Conversations Off the Record:

  • Black officers feel “fed up,” “powerless,” and often suppress their feelings of complicity, feeling torn between job security and awareness of systemic injustices.
    • “They feel stuck, many of them... they come up with all sorts of ways to suppress what’s really going on, because if they had to deal with it head-on, they probably wouldn’t be able to do their job.” (12:32–13:40)

• Tension within the Black Community:

  • The hostile dynamic between Black protesters and Black officers—“You’re not black, you’re blue”—signals how being in the system can fundamentally shift one’s ethics.
    • “I've seen people's entire politics switch because of this job... Their politics will go against every other box that they check.” (13:51–15:07)

5. Whistleblowing, Lawsuits, and NYPD Response (15:07–17:03)

• NYPD Statement:
  • The NYPD asserted that Raymond never formally proposed initiatives for reform; Raymond flatly rejects this.
    • “That’s absolutely untrue... As early as 2014, I was chosen to be part of then Commissioner Bratton’s Re-Engineering 2014 initiative... I've emailed plans. This is the third time I've seen... this right, because now it’s just a template that they send out.” (15:45–17:03)

6. The Psychological Toll of Speaking Out (17:03–18:20)

• Mental Health Impact:
  • Citing Tupac, Raymond describes the toll: “Dying inside, but outside, you’re looking fearless. This has not been good. Therapy has been great... the support system... but this has not been easy at all.” (17:11–18:20)

7. What Can Change? Incremental Reform and Leadership (18:20–20:44)

• Small Changes with Big Impact:

  • Raymond calls for listening directly to rank-and-file officers and elevating justice-minded officers into leadership—citing Captain Derby Saint Fort as an example.
    • “If the NYPD was to invest in the many talented individuals that exist, put them in positions of leadership, we will have a different police department in New York City that can be an example for the nation.” (18:35–19:45)

• Vision for the Mayor:

  • Disappointed with current leadership, he urges the mayor—a former officer himself—to act in accordance with his activist roots and embrace genuine reformers.
    • “The mayor has the opportunity to make sure the current leadership does [behave] in a way that reflects his those values that we respect about him.” (19:59–20:44)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Childhood Realities:
  “It was a rough childhood, but it was a beautiful childhood at the same time.”
  — Edwin Raymond (03:10–04:06)

• On Policing & Representation:
  “When I saw Nixon, it became tangible, it became real.”
  — Edwin Raymond (08:11–08:18)

• On Race and Policing Culture:
  “When it comes to race, we’re a nation of cowards. And we still are, unfortunately. Not discussing race robs us...”
  — Edwin Raymond (08:37–09:39)

• On Systemic Bias:
  “The department is getting more and more diverse. We’re starting to look more and more like perps.”
  — Anonymous NYPD Instructor, as recalled by Raymond (10:54–11:41)

• On Suppressing Awareness:
  “They come up with all sorts of ways to suppress what's really going on... They feel stuck.”
  — Edwin Raymond (12:32–13:40)

• On Institutional Transformation:
  “If the NYPD was to invest in the many talented individuals... put them in positions of leadership, we will have a different police department.”
  — Edwin Raymond (18:35–19:45)

Timeline: Important Segments

• 03:10 – Raymond’s childhood in East Flatbush and early exposure to police
• 06:41 – Decision-making on joining the NYPD
• 08:18 – Race as a “verboten” topic at the Police Academy
• 10:54 – Instructor’s implicit bias warning
• 11:46 – The “job is not real” moment and workplace culture
• 13:51 – Black officers and community dynamics
• 15:45 – NYPD's statement on Raymond's reform proposals
• 17:11 – The challenges to Raymond’s mental health and well-being
• 18:35 – Raymond’s recommendations for reforming NYPD culture
• 19:59 – Reflections on the current mayor and missed opportunities for reform

Conclusion

This episode offers an unvarnished look at the complex realities of policing from the inside, delivered through Edwin Raymond’s personal journey from idealistic recruit to determined whistleblower. Stewart’s thoughtful prompts and Raymond’s candor provide both an indictment of systemic inertia and hope for reform through open dialogue, leadership diversity, and the empowerment of those who genuinely wish to serve and protect.

Book Mentioned:
An Inconvenient Cop: My Fight to Change Policing in America by Edwin Raymond (with John Sternfeld)