'Orwell: 2+2=5' on the Author's Lessons for 2025

Summary

---

Podcast Summary: "Orwell: 2+2=5 on the Author's Lessons for 2025"

Podcast: All Of It
Host: Alison Stewart, WNYC
Date: October 3, 2025
Guest: Raoul Peck, Director of "Orwell: 2+2=5"

---

Episode Overview

This episode explores director Raoul Peck's new documentary, Orwell: 2+2=5, which reinterprets George Orwell's life and work for the present moment. Rather than a traditional biography, Peck crafts a collage of Orwell’s writings, personal history, and contemporary events, revealing how Orwell’s insights on authoritarianism, surveillance, and propaganda continue to resonate amid today’s global politics. Through the film and this conversation, Peck and Stewart examine the persistent impact of Orwell’s themes and the real dangers faced by democracies in 2025.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Why "The Scariest Movie of 2025"?

[02:11] Raoul Peck reacts to Rolling Stone's headline:

"Well, I'm afraid that it's true... Orwell, you know, have been considered dystopian writer, but in fact, he's a man who have gone to war... he was talking about very fundamental patterns... a playbook to disaggregate democracy."

• Peck sees Orwell not primarily as a futurist or dystopian author, but as an analyst of the real mechanics of authoritarianism: how regimes destroy institutions, attack academia, the press, and the justice system.

Crafting a Documentary Without Talking Heads

[03:33] Host: Why use a collage structure instead of a standard biography?
[03:37] Raoul Peck:

"Once I decided that I was going to tell a story and not make a biography... Orwell was going to tell his own story with his own voice and his own writing... So the story I built was him in the last year of his life, struggling to write and finish 1984..."

• Peck had unprecedented access to Orwell's complete works, enabling the film to be driven almost entirely by Orwell’s own words, read by Damian Lewis.

Orwell and Colonialism: A Personal Resonance

[05:00] Peck describes deep surprise at Orwell’s proximity to his own experiences as someone from Haiti and Congo:

"He became very trustful for me because somehow he visited my world. He lived there. ...he basically went on the other side, being the bully, being the colonialist. And he wrote about it because he felt that deeply as one of the worst things he had to do in his life."

• The discussion highlights Orwell’s autobiographical honesty and his wrestling with his own complicity in empire and oppression.

The Paradox of Intimacy and Power

[06:29] On a famous photo of Orwell with his Black nanny:

"...white parents would give their most precious being to somebody they probably totally disgrace, that don't respect...and then, later, that same baby would forget that that person really cared for him or her...That's the total contradiction of life and racism."
[07:31] Alison Stewart adds:
"Yeah, you can be close, but not powerful. But you can be powerful but not close."

• The dialogue explores the human contradictions at the heart of both colonial and contemporary societies.

Moving Past Seeing Orwell as a Distant "British White Guy"

[08:52] Peck on connecting with Orwell:

"...at one point, you forget that they are white or anything else because they travel the world...you're not just in your own little world and think that you're the center of the planet. And that changed everything."

• Peck emphasizes that true empathy and perspective transcend national or ethnic origins.

Parallels to Modern Authoritarian Tactics

[10:23] Peck on motifs both in Orwell and modern politics:

"...there are similarities with Colin Powell at the UN preparing the attack on Iraq, or George W. Bush in his discourse about those Arabs and savages...That's the playbook that have been used again and again...when we hear it [“we’re going to save American lives”], we know something bad is going to happen...It's like dog whistle..."

• Orwell’s "newspeak" is alive in geopolitical language justifying intervention and violence.

Orwell’s Class Awareness and the Contradiction Within

[11:44] Orwell's awareness of his own class background:

"Well, it shows that he has a very clear class analysis and that he understood what part of the society he was classified, basically..."

• Peck details how Orwell's background both provided access and made him a perennial outsider; he was, as the host quotes, "a snob and a revolutionary".

The Pain of Complicity – “Shooting an Elephant”

[13:18] Orwell on imperial service:

"All I knew was that I was stuck between my hatred of the empire I served and my rage against the evil-spirited little beasts who tried to make my job impossible."

Peck responds:

"...he's exactly in the belly of the beast. That's a rare position and to be able to write about it ...you think they're not aware of what they're doing. Some of the people they are arresting could have been their own family and they are very clear about that..."

• The relevance of Orwell’s writings to questions of migration, policing, and individual agency today is underscored with analogies to ICE and the National Guard.

Collage as Contemporary Mirror

[15:23] Peck on matching Orwell’s text to modern images:

"...sometimes the image would come immediately...you are reading that and you seeing those real image of today of a large boat or small boat with 500 refugees trying to reach the European shore...and Orwell is commenting that as if he's a newscaster in the moment today..."

• The film’s structure reveals the uncanny continuity between Orwell’s observations and today’s crises: refugees, authoritarianism, propaganda.

Action and Responsibility for Today’s Youth

[18:14] Stewart asks if Peck has hope for 18-year-olds today:
[18:20] Peck:

"Hope is not the word I would use, but I would say, like Orwell say...the degradation of language is the condition for the degradation of democracy...the film clarified what is at stake today. And the decision is the decision of everybody, individual and collectively."

• The film’s purpose is not to offer hope, but to demand clear-eyed responsibility and agency.

Damian Lewis as Orwell’s Voice

[19:19] Peck chose Damian Lewis for his ability to 'embody' rather than simply narrate Orwell:

"...I had to stick to the idea I'm making a film. It's not...an analysis... I needed an actor that, if possible, had stage experience, somebody who could really make the text himself and not, you know, with the distance of a narrator."

Most Important Next Step for Reading Orwell

[21:20] Peck’s guidance:

"...why I write these incredible essays about the very candid and humble analysis of who he is as a writer and what is his...task as a writer, what are his responsibilities..."

• Beyond the famous novels, Peck recommends Orwell's essays as the real entry into his worldview.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "It's a playbook to disaggregate democracy."
    [02:11] Raoul Peck
• "You can be close, but not powerful. But you can be powerful but not close."
    [07:31] Alison Stewart
• "He was talking about very fundamental patterns...the way authoritarian regime establish themselves, how they start destroying institution..."
    [02:11] Raoul Peck
• "The degradation of language is the condition for the degradation of democracy."
    [18:20] Quoting Orwell, echoed by Peck
• "Sometimes you're in a position where you are aggressing your own class."
    [14:47] Raoul Peck
• "Orwell is commenting that as if he's a newscaster in the moment today."
    [15:23] Raoul Peck
• On Damian Lewis narrating:
    "I needed an actor...somebody who could really make the text himself and not...with the distance of a narrator."
    [19:19] Raoul Peck

---

Noteworthy Segments & Timestamps

• [02:11] – Peck on the film’s frightening relevance to 2025
• [03:37] – On the unique documentary structure, letting Orwell "tell his own story"
• [05:00] – Personal identification with Orwell’s colonial past
• [07:31] – The contradiction of intimacy and power in colonial settings
• [08:52] – How Peck came to see Orwell as personally relatable, not just a remote figure
• [10:23] – Parallels between Orwell’s account and modern US/Western foreign policy rhetoric
• [13:18] – Discussing "Shooting an Elephant" and complicity in oppression
• [15:23] – How Orwell’s text maps onto footage of the Mediterranean refugee crisis
• [18:14] – The question of hope and agency for young people
• [19:19] – The importance of Damian Lewis as a voice that “embodies” Orwell
• [21:20] – Peck advising readers to start with Orwell’s essays

---

Conclusion

Raoul Peck’s Orwell: 2+2=5 is more than a film about a famous author: it’s a warning, a mirror, and a provocation. Peck and Stewart’s conversation makes clear that Orwell’s work is not just about the past or some imagined future, but about the urgent choices everyone faces in maintaining the health of democracy amid manipulation, repression, and indifference. For those unfamiliar with Orwell’s full range, Peck stresses the essays as essential reading. This episode is a rich resource for understanding Orwell’s ongoing relevance, especially in an age teetering between freedom and fear.

---

Transcript

[WNYC Sponsor Announcer]

Our state has changed a lot in the last 140 years. We know because Multicare has been here guided by a single making our communities healthier. That comes from making courageous decisions, partnering with local communities to grow programs and services, and expanding healthcare access to those who need it most. Together, we're building a healthier future. Learn [e-mail].

[Alison Stewart]

This is all of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. The new documentary from director Raoul Peck is titled Orwell two plus two equals five. It's a phrase from Orwell's last book, 1984. Peck uses some of Orwell's final printed words to tell his whole life story, but not in a biopic kind of way. Peck creates a kaleidoscope juxtaposing Orwell's life and writing with news footage, film clips and essays, and diary entries from Orwell himself, read by actor Damian Lewis. Here's a clip.

[Voice Actor / Narrator (Damian Lewis reading Orwell)]

Most people approve of capital punishment, but most people wouldn't do the hangman's job.

[January 6th Protester (archival footage)]

They don't represent us. They need to pay the ultimate price for their crimes. An example needs to be made. Let us in. Get in there.

[Alison Stewart]

Those voices you hear at the end come from footage from the January 6th protest, which happened 71 years after Orwell's death in 1950. We see how Orwell's words connect to authoritarian trends in the decades since and reverberate in an age of digital surveillance, scientific skepticism and artificial intelligence. A review in Rolling Stone calls the film the scariest movie of 2025. Director Raoul Peck joins me to discuss. Raoul, it is lovely to meet you in person.

[Raoul Peck]

Well, thank you for the invitation.

[Alison Stewart]

What do you think about that review, the scariest movie of 2025?

[Raoul Peck]

Well, I'm afraid that it's true. Yeah. Well, Orwell, you know, have been considered dystopian writer, but in fact, he's a man who have gone to war. He served in the military as a colonial soldier. So he have since then he have gone through a very personal, difficult moment and he learned from it. And I considered him like somebody very close, which I didn't think when I, you know, when I was younger And I read 1984, you know, which sounded a little bit like science fiction, me. But then I realized that in fact he was talking about very fundamental patterns. You know, the way authoritarian regime establish themselves, how they start destroying institution, you know, attack academia, the justice system, the press, etc. That's the pattern. Basically a playbook to disaggregate democracy.

[Alison Stewart]

You know, I want to Talk to you about the making of the film. There are no talking heads in this documentary. It's a collage of historical footage films. There's voiceovers at one point.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly Alison Stewart or a co-host)]

At what point did this sort of collage idea come to you?

[Raoul Peck]

Well, it's layer by layers, you know, once I decided that I was going to tell a story and not make a biography. So I have to find the characters for this story, I have to find the dramatic structure for the story. And that's the first part of my job. And I decided Orwell was going to tell his own story with his own voice and his own writing, because I had access to his whole body of work, which is incredible and rare in our film industry. So I knew I could use everything I wanted. So the story I built was him in the last year of his life, struggling to Write and Finish 1984, which will make him one of the most famous author of the planet. And he died four months after publication. So I thought that was the ideal storyline to allow me to distress and go throughout his whole body of work. And this is what I did.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly Alison Stewart or a co-host)]

You had access to everything he wrote through his estate. What was something that surprised you as you were going through all of that footage and all of those writings?

[Raoul Peck]

Well, what surprised me the most was the fact that I did not anticipate that he would be as intimate and close to my own reality. You know, I. I'm born in Haiti, I grew up in Congo and many other places, places of dictatorships. And he became very trustful for me because somehow he visited my world. He lived there. And when you see the photo of him with his black nanny, like young white little boy with his black nanny, you know these stories, you know, the stories of colonial families and how the absurd of black nanny raising a white boy. And he went back at 19 as part of the Imperial British army. And he basically went on the other side, being the bully, being the colonialist. And he wrote about it because he felt that deeply as one of the worst things he had to do in his life. So he felt very close to my reality, and that's why I could trust also his words. And that was a very deep surprise for me.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly Alison Stewart or a co-host)]

When you saw that picture of him being held by the black nanny, what was your visceral response?

[Raoul Peck]

Well, it showed the contradiction of life somehow. You know, I had made a film two years ago about Ernest Cole, the South African photographer. And there is a sequence exactly about that where he's. He's photographing black nannies in apartheid South Africa. And one of the nannies was saying, oh, my God, I love this child so much, but I know when she grew up she will be just like her mother. And in that sentence, that's the absurdity of life that white parents would give their most precious being to somebody they probably totally disgrace that don't respect. And then later that same baby would forget that that person really cared for him or her. And that's the total contradiction of life and racism.

[Alison Stewart]

Yeah, you can be close, but not powerful. But you can be powerful but not close.

[Raoul Peck]

Exactly. And not seeing the irony itself, you know, that's the most crazy spot. You know, that nanny participate in your daily life and probably know most about you than any other person because she is in the house and you don't see her. She's totally transparent. And then you think that she, you know, at the end I use that picture again and that I think the people watching have a totally different feeling about that. It's something that you can't explain, but it's a feeling of danger, of absurdity. You know, after having seen the whole film and the violence of it. And you see the aberration, the incredible contradiction of this black nanny with this blonde child.

[Alison Stewart]

I'm speaking to Raoul Peck, director of Orwell, Two plus two Equals Five. It's in theaters today. You also had the tell the story of Eric Arthur Blair, which is George Orwell's real name. How did you decide on the balance of telling his story, the responsibility of telling his story with your creative sensibility?

[Raoul Peck]

Well, it would have been a very difficult film for me to make if indeed I had stay on the belief that Orwell was this dystopian writer, this white British, a bit not very cool guy, you know, very British in his sense. And I discover another man. And so again, as I was telling before, he felt very close. And, you know, I had that impression for many other writers that I made film about. James Baldwin, Sven Lindquist. And for me, they were white writers. But at one point, you forget that they are white or anything else because they travel the world. They have gone to meet the other. And their judgment or their vision of the other is totally different and close to mine because I traveled a lot when I was a young person. So that creates a sort of different sensibility. You know, you're not just in your own little world and think that you're the center of the planet. And that changed everything.

[Alison Stewart]

The film begins. Is it Jura? Am I pronouncing that correctly? Where Orwell started writing? 1984. Why did you want to open there?

[Raoul Peck]

Well, I had again to find the right way to enter that story. And the fact that I chose in 1984, which is of course an incredible analysis and render of any authoritarian regime being put in place. And as we see in the film, there are similarities with Colin Powell at the UN preparing the attack on Iraq, or George W. Bush in his discourse about those Arabs and savages who have been raping women and killing children. That's the playbook that have been used again and again, again toward the third World. You know, my own country in Haiti, while different US administration were saying, well, they are defending democracy. Or there is a sentence where when in the third World, when we hear it, we know something bad is going to happen. When they say, well, we're going to save American lives, you know, this is Newspeak. They nothing to do with reality, but it's like dog whistle, you know, when you live in the Third World, you know there is an attack coming.

[Alison Stewart]

We get to hear Orwell's own words. He says, early on, I was born into what you might describe as the lower upper middle class. How does that help us understand him better?

[Raoul Peck]

Well, it shows that he has a very clear class analysis and that he understood what part of the society he was classified, basically. And he went to a good school, he went to Ayton, even though his parents didn't have the money to pay for that. But he was a good student. And then he could have gone to Cambridge or to, you know, all the Ivy League schools. That's the tradition in British school system. But he choose to enter the military at 19. So he was always concerned, or not concerned, but aware of his place in society, a society, especially the British society, where every little degree of your place count and the nuance. That's what he explained very colorfully in the film.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly Alison Stewart or a co-host)]

It's interesting because when he was 17 or 18, he said, I was both a snob and a revolutionary.

[Raoul Peck]

Exactly. He lived that contradiction in himself because he had access to, you know, the best teacher in the world, the best school. And at the same time he felt that he didn't totally belong.

[Alison Stewart]

There's another quote we found from Orwell.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly Alison Stewart or a co-host)]

In his 1936 essay, Shooting an Elephant. And he writes about being in Burma. All I knew was that I was stuck between my hatred of the empire I served and my rage against the.

[Alison Stewart]

Evil, spirited little beast who tried to.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly Alison Stewart or a co-host)]

Make my job impossible. What do you hear when you hear that quote?

[Raoul Peck]

Well, he's exactly in the belly of the beast. That's a rare Position and to be able to write about it because he.

[Alison Stewart]

Served in the Imperial Police.

[Raoul Peck]

Absolutely. And you could ask the same kind of question about somebody, a guy working for ice, you know, or the National Guard. Or the National Guard. But ICE is specific because I think the National Guard might have the illusion they are defending the country. I see, you know, but ice, they see the news as well. That's one reason why they are masked as well. They are not very proud, or at least some of them, you know, they needed a job, they got the job, and you think they're not aware of what they are doing. Some of the people they are arresting could have been their own family and they are very clear about that. But they are living that contradiction and some of them very painfully so. That's what class, social class tells you as well. You know, sometimes you're in a position where you are aggressing your own class.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly Alison Stewart or a co-host)]

I'm speaking to Raoul Peck, director of Orwell Two plus two Equals Five. It's in theaters today. So interesting because you hear these essays of Orwell being read over by Damian Lewis and then you see very contemporary visuals. January 6th, ICE, to your point, what happened more often? Did the essays lead you to go think about history and apply the footage later or did the footage just grab you and hold onto you and you went back and you read Orwell and said, yes, this fits there.

[Raoul Peck]

Yeah, well, it was a mixture. It went both ways, but because I had to first write the scenario, the screenplay of the whole film, even though I would change it a hundred times. But you know, sometimes the image would come immediately. You know, like when you open the first chapter of 1984 and you have the character Winston Smith saying, well, yesterday we went movies and there was, you know, a lot of war films, but one particular about refugees on the Mediterranean. And then you are reading that and you seeing those real image of today of a large boat or small boat of with 500 refugees trying to reach the European shore and sunking, you know, literally sunking or not getting the help from some sort of, you know, Coast Guard or something. Yeah, Coast Guard, you know. And Orwell is commenting that as if he's a newscaster in the moment today. So we had a lot of those moments where it was always about, oh my God, this is what's happening now.

[Alison Stewart]

That was my senior year of high school was 19, 1984. And it blows my mind when I think about it, reading it.

[Raoul Peck]

Oh yeah, it's almost an out of body feeling. You know, you say, oh my God, is it you know, you have to pinch yourself to say, you know, is Orwell talking about now? Was he a witness of what is happening? But it shows how deep his analysis went. You know, in fact, he was never a dystopian. He was writing about things that he knows that he went through. You know, he went to war. He volunteered as a young British man to help the Republic in Spain because he felt there was an injustice there. And he joined there at the risk of his life. And you can see today where young people are asking themselves, how do they react to what's going on in this country or in France or in many other European countries or in the third world, where there is a clear going toward more authoritarian regimes, where freedoms are being erased every day, where money and profit are taking more and more room. So it asks the question, what do you do today as a young man? Are you ready to risk your life sometimes for a cause for, you know, to, you know, uphold democracy? Because that's what is at stake.

[Alison Stewart]

Do you have hope for 18 year olds today? Well, have you seen so far?

[Raoul Peck]

Well, hope is not the word I would use, but I would say, like Orwell say, and I think most young people have access to knowledge so that they can come to that realization themselves. But when Orwell say, you know, the degradation of language is the condition for the degradation of democracy, you know, I think every young people can understand that. And then they can ask themselves the question, in what world do I want to live? You know, and the film doesn't give any recipe, but the film clarified what is at stake today. And the decision is the decision of everybody, individual and collectively. And we will have to find an answer to that.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly Alison Stewart or a co-host)]

The actor Damian Lewis narrates and reads.

[Alison Stewart]

Orwell's essays and diary entries. How did you come upon Damian Lewis.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly Alison Stewart or a co-host)]

To be your narrator?

[Raoul Peck]

Well, I had a short list of because I needed an actor. You say narrated because it's not narration for me. It's really embodied a character. Because I had to stick to the idea I'm making a film. It's not a. Is not an analysis. It's really. It has to have all the elements of filmmaking. And so I need an actor that, if possible, had stage experience, somebody who could really make the text himself and not, you know, with the distance of a narrator. You know, I wanted to avoid that because we had to be as close as possible to Orwell. Orwell is the one telling us about his life, about his battles, about his reflection. So we had to be totally immersed in that world. So you didn't want to have a voice that you know, like the voice of God from elsewhere telling you the story, it has to be by the character himself.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly Alison Stewart or a co-host)]

Well, let's listen to Orwell talking about living in Burma. This is from your film Orwell. Two plus two equal five. It's Damian Lewis.

[Voice Actor / Narrator (Damian Lewis reading Orwell)]

When I was not yet 20, I went to Burma in the Indian Imperial Police. In an outpost of empire like Burma, the class question appeared at first sight to have been shelved. Most of the white men in Burma were not of the type who in England would be called gentlemen, but they were white men in contradistinction to the other and inferior class, the natives.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly Alison Stewart or a co-host)]

If someone were to read 1984 and Animal Farm, but nothing else from Orwell, what would you point them towards next?

[Raoul Peck]

Well, first thing I would say why I write these incredible essays about the very candid and humble analysis of who he is as a writer and what is his, you know, his task as a writer, what are his responsibilities. And I think through that essays you understand most of who Orwell is and how he think and how he really looked back about most of his younger life. And I think that's a really big the best entry to his work. And by the way, that's one of the essays I use the most in the film.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly Alison Stewart or a co-host)]

The name of the film is Orwell. Two plus two Equals five. I've been speaking with its director, Raoul Peck. Thank you so much for joining us.

[Raoul Peck]

Thank you for inviting me.

[WNYC Sponsor Announcer]

Since WNYC's first broadcast in 1924, we've been dedicated to creating the kind of content we know the world needs. In addition to this award winning reporting, your sponsorship also supports inspiring storytelling and extraordinary music that is free and accessible to all. To get in touch and find out more, visit sponsorship.wnyc.org Since WNYC's first broadcast in 1924, we've been dedicated to creating the kind of content we know the world needs. In addition to this award winning reporting, your sponsorship also supports inspiring storytelling and extraordinary music that is free and accessible to all. To get in touch and find out more, visit sponsorship.wnyc.org.