'Our Ancestors Were Messy' Podcast Transforms Historical Black Newspaper Gossip Columns

Summary

Podcast Summary: All Of It – "Our Ancestors Were Messy" Podcast Transforms Historical Black Newspaper Gossip Columns

Introduction to the Episode In this engaging episode of All Of It, hosted by Alison Stewart on WNYC, the conversation delves into the intriguing world of historical African American newspaper gossip columns. The episode, titled "'Our Ancestors Were Messy' Podcast Transforms Historical Black Newspaper Gossip Columns," explores how these gossip pages, often viewed as mere guilty pleasures, serve as powerful indicators of societal values and the personal lives of black elites post-Civil War.

Introducing the Guest: Nicole Hill Alison Stewart welcomes Nicole Hill, the host and producer of the podcast Our Ancestors Were Messy. Nicole is an award-winning producer, also known for her work on The Secret Adventures of Black People. She explains her passion for uncovering the nuanced and often untold stories of African American history through these historical gossip columns.

Discovery of Black Newspaper Gossip Pages Nicole shares her journey of discovering these rich historical records. While researching gentrification in Washington, D.C., she stumbled upon the Library of Congress's digital archives, which housed tens of thousands of African American newspapers dating back to the 1860s. This treasure trove of information vividly captured snapshots of black life during the late 19th and early 20th centuries, inspiring her to create a podcast that brings these stories to life.

"I started skimming through them and found that the images of black life that I was looking for are perfectly captured in these little snapshots in these newspapers." [04:09]

Conceptualizing the Podcast: "Our Ancestors Were Messy" Nicole's podcast aims to humanize historical figures by showcasing their imperfections and personal dramas. She emphasizes that understanding these messy aspects makes ancestors more relatable to modern listeners.

"It's meant to make people feel like you are recognizing yourself and your ancestors much more than I felt I had before, when they were just sort of these iconic figures on a hill who endured and endured and eventually succeeded." [02:37]

Content of Gossip Columns Nicole describes the diverse range of topics covered in the gossip columns, from love affairs and marital issues to social gatherings and community events. She likens the content to modern-day Instagram posts, highlighting the universal and timeless nature of personal storytelling.

"It's a lot of people... I often compare it to Instagram. It's a lot of what you would post on Instagram is what I find in these pages." [06:16]

Listener Calls: Sharing Family Secrets The episode features several listener calls, where individuals share their own family secrets and scandals. These stories parallel the historical narratives discussed, illustrating that the complexities of family dynamics are not confined to the past.

• Paul from Brooklyn shares the revelation of his mother's long-term, secret marriage, highlighting hidden personal histories.

  "He had taken us to his place in Martha's Vineyard... he blurted it out after my mom died, assuming that you knew, he..." [07:02]

• Anna from Brooklyn recounts her grandmother's secret pregnancy and abortion, revealing family truths that surfaced decades later.

  "That I was the only one she'd ever told." [08:28]

• Tamara from Seaford, Long Island discusses an undisclosed family member discovered after her grandfather's war injuries led to a secret marriage.

  "He asked for one of his nurses to participate, and she said, not without a ring... we get a phone call saying, I'm your uncle, I'm your brother." [16:41]

• Noah from the Bronx uncovers his great-grandfather’s past as an Irish Republican Army member who emigrated to the U.S. under disguise.

  "He was actually part of the Irish Republican Army... dressed as a little old lady and boarded a ship to the US." [13:28]

• Marcia from Manhattan reveals a lineage twist involving name changes and hidden Jewish and Sephardic ancestry.

  "I never realized that we had this whole lineage of going up into England of, you know, Jewish and Sephardic." [20:27]

Specific Stories from the Podcast Nicole delves into specific narratives featured in her podcast, such as the story of Lulu, the "Belle of Colored DC." Lulu, daughter of a wealthy black elite, defies social norms by falling in love with a man deemed unsuitable by her family's standards, echoing the challenges faced by historical black elites in maintaining social respectability.

"She does fall in love with one of her father's employees... the papers just outright call him poor." [15:46]

She also discusses Lucinda Seaton, a cautionary tale of a black woman who, after her partner's death, struggles to maintain her status without the support of her affluent community.

"She had to take on a couple different jobs to survive... if Lulu had known about that story, I don't imagine that she would have wanted that to happen to her." [19:00]

Podcast Format and Style Alison observes the podcast's unique blend of media, likening it to an old-time radio drama. Nicole confirms this intentional stylistic choice, aiming to immerse listeners in the historical context with a touch of comedy to make black history more accessible and entertaining.

"I wanted to be able to bring that in and to immerse people in the time... a comedy as well. I thought it'd be very interesting to have black history told in a comedic way." [09:12]

Lessons and Insights Nicole emphasizes that Our Ancestors Were Messy seeks to present a multifaceted view of black history, moving beyond narratives of struggle to include stories of love, ambition, and everyday life. She hopes listeners connect with their ancestors on a personal level, recognizing shared humanity and the complexity of their experiences.

"I hope that people feel a little less alienated from themselves because they are able to see that their ancestors were people like them, who made mistakes like them, but who also pursued their dreams and goals." [22:08]

Future Episodes and Conclusion Looking ahead, Nicole teases the next episode set in the Wild West, focusing on Oscar Micheaud—a frontiersman and lover who navigates personal and cultural conflicts leading to the creation of Black Hollywood. The episode wraps up with Alison encouraging listeners to engage with the podcast by sharing their own family stories, fostering a community of shared experiences and diverse perspectives.

Final Thoughts This episode of All Of It masterfully intertwines historical analysis with personal storytelling, offering a rich tapestry of the African American experience through the lens of gossip columns. By highlighting both the public personas and private dramas of black elites, the podcast underscores the universal nature of human complexities and the importance of preserving and understanding diverse histories.

Transcript

[Alison Stewart]

All of it is supported by Progressive Insurance. You chose to hit play on this podcast today. Smart Choice. Make another smart choice with Auto Quote Explorer to compare rates for multiple car insurance companies all at once. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy.

[Ira Flatow]

Listener Supported WNYC Studios.

[Alison Stewart]

This is all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. Thanks for sharing part of your day with us. The next hour we're going to be talking about gossip, so pull your chair up. The gossip pages have been long regarded as guilty pleasures, but they're also powerful barometers of societal values. A new podcast uses stories printed in the gossip pages of African American newspapers. After the Civil War, these newspapers exploded nationally and by 1890 there were close to 600. They fiercely competed for the news. In addition to tips about the growing class of what our next guest calls the black elites, the podcast is called Our Ancestors Were Messy. Some of the bold face names might sound familiar like Frederick Douglass or Ida B. Wells, but many are families who were successful in their communities and at the time had various reasons and had various scandals that just needed to be printed. The host and creator is Nicole Hill. She's an award winning producer and is also the producer of the host the Secret Adventures of Black People. Nicole, welcome to the show.

[Nicole Hill]

Thank you so much. I'm happy to be here.

[Alison Stewart]

Listeners, do you have a family messy, A messy family secret? Did you distant relative elope with someone in the family they disapproved of? Have you got an extra brother or sister that no one ever talked about? Tell us. We're here. 212-433-WNYC 212-433-9692. Maybe someone had a scandalous affair or lived a dou. You can call in and join our conversation. 212-433-WNYC 212-433-9692 or you can reach out to us on social media as well as that the number that is that our address is at Olive@WNYC. Your podcast people know the secret Adventures of Black People. And in the trailer for that you say something along the lines of leveraging something other than our pain and focusing on the peopleness of black people. How does your new podcast factor into that philosophy?

[Nicole Hill]

Yes, so with the title Our Ancestors Were Messy, of course we're going to be talking about the gossipy, the imperfect sides of our ancestors, but really, honestly, it's meant to make people feel the modern listener. It's meant to make you feel like you are recognizing yourself and your ancestors much more than I felt I had before, when they were just sort of these iconic figures on a hill who endured and endured and eventually succeeded. They did that, and they also, you know, got into some trouble.

[Alison Stewart]

Well, how did you first discover these gossip pages? In the black papers?

[Nicole Hill]

Yes. So I have loved old movies the majority of my life, Starting in the sixth grade and on. I was at Blockbuster, always buying anything in black and white. And I would see little glimpses of black life, but I couldn't get a sense of what it was during this time period. The 20s, the 30s, the 40s. And then later on, I'm older. I'm an audio journalist. About five years ago, I'm working and living in Washington, D.C. and doing research for a story on gentrification and the history of the city. And I just stumbled across the Library of Congress, this digital archive they have of tens of thousands of these papers organized by states going as far back as, like, the 1880s, 1860s, actually. And so I started skimming through them and found that the images of black life that I was looking for are perfectly captured in these little snapshots in these newspapers. And so after that, I was hooked.

[Alison Stewart]

So you decided to craft stories out of the Gaza pages?

[Nicole Hill]

Yeah. So I wanted to bring people into the newspapers, into this world of the every. These segregated communities were so vibrant and so interesting, and everybody is exploring all these ideas of we're the first generations to be born free. What is it going to look like? And all throughout the paper, there are really interesting things, but they all collide in the gossip columns, in the society pages, the arts entertainment section. So that's why I decided to focus there.

[Alison Stewart]

So when you're putting together the podcast, it's you and you invite a guest to be on. Our ancestors were messy. What does the guest give you as a producer? What do they give you on the podcast?

[Nicole Hill]

Yes. So I wanted to be able to enjoy these stories with somebody. I am a very amateur historian and archivist. These stories really brought me into that world. So I wanted to have, like, a play cousin to go through these stories with and laugh about all the drama and laugh about all the intrigue, but also process what it is to look at our ancestors this way and process the way it makes us feel about who we are now, looking at who they were then, but in this kind of messier, from this messier vantage point.

[Alison Stewart]

We'll get into some specifics in a minute. But what did they write about?

[Nicole Hill]

Oh, they write about Everything. It's so fun to read. So a lot of times, you know, there'll be. One of my favorite columns is an advice column. The advice is often so horrible, but people are writing in and being like, my neighbor has a dog, and it's so loud and it's so annoying, and what do I do? People will write in about their love affairs. I mean, so often people are talking about love. How do I get this person to love me? How do I leave my marriage? How do I get into a marriage? There's a lot of that, and then there's a lot of. Kind of like, we're all gonna go to the shore this weekend for fun. Who wants to come? Or everybody's going to this dance. Or has any. Have you heard about Louis Armstrong? He just released this new album, and we think he's gonna be a big deal. So there's. It's really just a lot of people. I often compare it to Instagram. It's a lot of what you would post on Instagram is what I find in these pages.

[Alison Stewart]

I'm speaking with Nicole Hill, host and producer of the podcast Our Ancestors Were Messy. Episodes drop every other week. Listeners, do you have a messy family secret? Did a dist. Relative elope with someone the family disapproved of? Did you have a scandalous affair or someone in your family who lived a double life? We want to know about it. Give us a call. 2124-3396-9221-2433. WNYC. Let's talk to Paul from Brooklyn who will spill some family tea. Hi, Paul.

[Nicole Hill]

Hey.

[Ira Flatow]

How's it going?

[Alison Stewart]

Going okay. Are you going to tell us your family story?

[Ira Flatow]

Yeah. So after my mom passed away, I learned that her boyfriend of many decades was actually married to another woman.

[Alison Stewart]

No.

[Ira Flatow]

Yeah.

[Nicole Hill]

Whoa.

[Ira Flatow]

Yeah. He had taken us to his place in Martha's Vineyard. You know, he showed up at, like, my events for a long time, and I had no idea. I know that my mom. Once I met him the first time, and I was like, mom, he seems cool. You should marry him. Then she gives me some, like, excuse about money or. And I just take that at face value, and I'm like, okay. And then he kind of, you know, he blurted it out after my mom died, assuming that we knew, he.

[Alison Stewart]

Wait, he told you? Assuming that you knew?

[Ira Flatow]

Yeah.

[Nicole Hill]

So your mom knew? Did he. Did your mom know?

[Ira Flatow]

Yeah, my mom.

[Alison Stewart]

Mom knew. Oh, mom definitely knew.

[Nicole Hill]

Okay. Okay. I'm gonna get clear on that. Okay.

[Alison Stewart]

How did you. How did you respond, if I may ask?

[Ira Flatow]

I asked him what he was doing around the time I was born.

[Nicole Hill]

A good question. It's an amazing question.

[Alison Stewart]

Paul, thank you so much for calling in. We really appreciate this. This says, in 1920, my 19 year old grandmother eloped to Florida with her first cousin. She got pregnant and had an abortion before eventually coming home to New York. I always thought the whole family knew this until a few weeks ago when I was talking about my scandalous grandmother found out that I was the only one she'd ever told.

[Nicole Hill]

Whoa, whoa.

[Alison Stewart]

All right, people, you people have laid down the gauntlet. Give us a call. 212-433-9692. Call and tell us a family secret. We're talking about the podcast. Our ancestors were messy. So also in the podcast, it's interesting because you sort of mix media. You really sort of do it. The old fashioned serial, almost like a serial. I don't know how to describe it. The sound of a. Of a serial.

[Nicole Hill]

What?

[Alison Stewart]

Of a serial.

[Nicole Hill]

It's like a. It is like an old timey radio drama.

[Alison Stewart]

Thank you. Oh, gosh, my brain.

[Nicole Hill]

Yes.

[Alison Stewart]

Radio drama. Yes. Tell us a little bit about how you decided on that, that plan.

[Nicole Hill]

I mean, this is my deep, deep love of old movies and old. Any kind of old art. And so I wanted to be able to bring that in and to immerse people in the time. I wanted people to picture themselves back in the. This is. Well, this story was taking place in the 1890s and 80s, and so I just thought it would be really fun. It's meant to be a comedy as well. I thought it'd be very interesting to have black history told in a comedic way. So that's part of the comedy.

[Alison Stewart]

All right, let's talk about the first episode you discussed. The first families of Washington, D.C. who are they?

[Nicole Hill]

They are the wealthy black elite. Most cities had a class of somewhere around 400 people, or that's the number that people often said of wealthy black black citizens who had either been left inheritances from former slave owners or they had found some way to make money on their own. And wealth is relative. They weren't necessarily millionaires, but they were this class of people who felt very charged with being very respectable, interacting with power, and finding some way to better the conditions for the black race at that time.

[Alison Stewart]

So what values did they have that were important?

[Nicole Hill]

They really did value above all this principle of lift as we climb. So the idea that we need to be improving ourselves in every step of the way. We need to be thinking about how to make things better for Our race as a whole now, they were very snobby and had a lot of rules about respectability and behavior and decorum and were kind of brutal if you stepped outside of those rules as any kind of victorious era, kind of upper class. This is sort of like an old money type of vibe is what they had. And so, you know, a lot of the respectability politics that we don't like now originated with them. But they were doing what they thought was best to improve the conditions of the black race immediately following slavery.

[Alison Stewart]

So who did you read about in the First Families that caught your attention?

[Nicole Hill]

Well, I used to live in D.C. on and off for 20 years. So there were a lot of local names like the Cardozas and the McKinleys that caught my eye. But of course, Frederick Douglass, who is just doing all of these incredible things, but also all over the gossip columns and one of the most prominent, visible members of the first families. He's everywhere, as is Mary Church Terrell, who is so judgy everywhere.

[Alison Stewart]

She's everywhere.

[Nicole Hill]

She's everywhere. She's so amazing. But I read her diary and it had this account of a woman's home and she's just dragging it just like, oh, this upholstery. I was like, mary, let's talk to.

[Alison Stewart]

Anna calling in from Brooklyn. Hi, Anna, thanks for calling all of it.

[Ira Flatow]

Hi, thanks so much. So I will try to be brief because this is a very long story, but years ago, my father grew up in Sweden. His family is all from Sweden. And we were visiting there and learned again through kind of a long chain of events that I can share. You have more time that his paternal grandfather. So his mother's. My dad's mother's father had a child that no one ever knew about and somehow supported this child who was born to a single woman, lived honestly, this is an area of Sweden that now is fairly in the middle of nowhere. So I cannot even imagine how in the middle of nowhere it was at the time. She was German and, like came followed him to Sweden, somehow raised this child. He supported this child, and no one in the family ever learned about it. And my dad was just very happy that actually my grandmother died before we learned about it. Again, through kind of a odd chain of events because he knew that she would have been devastated to know that her father had hid this from the family.

[Alison Stewart]

Wow. Thank you so much for calling in. Let's talk to Noah from the Bronx. Hi, Noah, thanks for calling all of it. Will you share your story with us?

[Ira Flatow]

Yes.

[Nicole Hill]

Hi.

[Ira Flatow]

Thanks for taking my call. So My story is about my paternal great grandfather who emigrated to the United States from Ireland. And we were always told that he was a respectable businessman when he came to the United States, when in fact he was actually part of the Irish Republican Army. And he was a wanted man who was at one point one of the most sought after bounties in the uk. And so in order to emigrate to the United States, he had to disguise himself. And so he got fake documents and went to London dressed as a little old lady and boarded a ship to.

[Alison Stewart]

Come to the US that is a good story.

[Nicole Hill]

Wow.

[Alison Stewart]

I love our listeners. They got good stories. I'm speaking with Nicole Hill, host and podcast of the Ancestors called Our Ancestors Were Messy. That's the name of the podcast, listeners. If you want to share your messy family secret, we want to hear it. 2124-3396-9221-2433-WNYC. So your first episode is about Lulu, is it? Lulu? Fr.

[Nicole Hill]

Yes, that's right.

[Alison Stewart]

So she's a little bit of a socialite. Can you give us a description of Lulu and the family she comes from?

[Nicole Hill]

Well, so Lulu is the daughter of a man named Richard Francis who had been enslaved in Virginia and then after emancipation had become a barback and kind of risen through the ranks and was the given responsibility of the restaurant in the Senate. And through that job he was able to acquire wealth. And, and so he became a member of the first families. And so his daughter Lulu was raised as a member of the first families. And you know, the papers don't give a ton of information about who she was and historians haven't, you know, because she was sort of a regular person. There isn't a lot of detail about her. But what I could find, the Washington Post wrote about her and they called her the Belle of Colored DC and then based on some of her exploits, were able to tell that she kind of has a mind of her own. She's not afraid of courting controversy a little bit. But part of why I have a guest there is so that together we can imagine what she would be like when, you know, the history and the details fail us.

[Alison Stewart]

Now, did she fall in love?

[Nicole Hill]

She does fall in love. She does fall in love with one of her father's employees.

[Alison Stewart]

Oh, wait, wait. So but if she's the belle of color dc she can't fall in love with one of her father's employees? That's just my pearl clutching. I don't know.

[Nicole Hill]

Well, therein lies the problem for the first families. And we imagine for her father, Richard, because this employee of his is an aspiring barber who does not come from wealth. The papers just outright call him poor. And that would not have been the kind of match that the first families would have wanted to see. For the belle of color, D.C. we're.

[Alison Stewart]

Talking about our ancestors were messy with its host and producer, Nicole Hill. We've got you on the line as well. Got a lot of calls. Wow. Let's talk to Tamara, or Tamara, rhymes with Tamara from Seaford, Long Island. Hi, Tamara.

[Ira Flatow]

Hi there. Thank you for taking my call. I had a grandfather who passed away, but he got hurt in the war way back when and ended up in the VA hospital in San Diego. Grandma was up in Seattle and she was with child number three, so she couldn't go and see him down in San Diego. So grandpa was anxious for a little more than what he was not having. So he asked for one of his nurses to participate, and she said, not without a ring. So he married her, and he was there and had his time with her. And grandma got down there and the nurse comes out and says, Mrs. H. And two ladies stand up and she goes, Mr. Mrs. M.H. and two ladies look at each other and say, that's me. Well, Mrs. H, number two, looked at Mrs. H. Number one turned around, walked out, had the marriage, and O, she didn't know she was pregnant. So 50 years later, we get a phone call saying, I'm your uncle, I'm your brother, and we got a new member in our family. 50 years later. He later, after that, had his name legally changed to his father's name. He went from a single child in and out of orphanages, in foster care, and one failed adoption to having a family of over 150 people, all from the same two people.

[Alison Stewart]

That's an. I'm just giving you applause for that one. That's incredible. It's interesting because I think in your podcast, I listened to it this morning, and you spoke about how there were cautionary tales in some of these. And the woman that you talked about was a cautionary tale for Lulu. Who was that?

[Nicole Hill]

Her name was Lucinda Seaton.

[Alison Stewart]

What happened to Lucinda?

[Nicole Hill]

So Lucinda, much like Lulu, was the belle of color, D.C. but in 1850, so 30 years before the Lulu saga begins. And she fell in love with somebody who was outside of her class. He was a blacksmith. And they moved to a middle class neighborhood out of her kind of upper class life. And they're making things work for a while. But then he's tragically killed and she has to make a Living on her own. And it doesn't really seem like the first families or her family stepped in very much and helped her financially. Maybe they did. I can't really tell. But I know that she had to take on a couple different jobs to survive. And I don't think if Lulu had known about that story, I don't imagine that she would have wanted that to happen to her. And maybe people would have warned her that if you pursue a man who does not have financial means, if something were to happen to him, you might end up having to work a bunch of jobs and live outside of the life you've become accustomed, like Lucinda Seton.

[Alison Stewart]

Let's talk to Lenora from Tappan Online, too. Hi, Lenora.

[Ira Flatow]

Hi. How are you doing?

[Alison Stewart]

Okay. I'm excited to hear what happened.

[Ira Flatow]

So my brother at 17 and his girlfriend at 15, got pregnant, got married, had a very successful marriage, had 12 children. Take a breath. 12 children. Wow. And then 20 years or so later, my sister put together, did a genealogy study, put together a family reunion. And it turns out that we're cousins with his wife. Like fourth cousins.

[Alison Stewart]

Oh, my goodness. Wow. You know what? I'm gonna. Wow. Just gonna let that sit in for a minute. Let's talk to Marcia from Manhattan. Hi, Marcia. Thanks for calling, all of it. Wow.

[Ira Flatow]

Thank you. Thank you. So I'm looking at my family tree and all these things that I. After I found out that my father was an identical twin and he died and his brother came to visit and he started. We wanted to tape our family history. So he starts talking and he let us know that our name is not Andrews. It was changed his father when his mother's husband died, she remarried a very WASPy judge in New Orleans King. And so somewhere along the way, they changed. I guess it was my great grandfather's name to Andrew's. And so I never realized that we had this whole lineage of going up into England of, you know, Jewish and Sephardic. There's Moyes in the name. And I just thought we were Scottish.

[Alison Stewart]

What was your name? What was your last name? Might have been. What would it have been?

[Ira Flatow]

Levy.

[Alison Stewart]

Levy. There you go. Thanks for sharing that story. So, Nicole, what's your new episode gonna be about? I wanna know what the next one is.

[Nicole Hill]

The next episode, we're leaving dc. We're going to the Wild West. We're going to the frontier, the turn of the century, to meet with an aspiring frontiersman who is also a lover boy. His name is Oscar Micheaud. And he gets into all this trouble trying to find a wife. And when he finally finds one, he gets into it with her father, and their back and forth leads to the creation of Black Hollywood.

[Alison Stewart]

Oh, that's exciting. What are you hoping that people take away from Our Ancestors Were Messy?

[Nicole Hill]

I hope that when people hear these stories, I hope that they're entertained and that they feel that black history is multifaceted and something that they'd want to explore beyond the harder parts of it and the more traumatic parts of it. There's also a lot of stories about experimentation, exploration of the country and identity. But most of all, I hope that people feel a little less alienated from themselves because they are able to see that their ancestors were people like them, who made mistakes like them, but who also pursued their dreams and goals. Didn't let that stop them from going after a better future for themselves and for their family and for our country.

[Alison Stewart]

The name of the podcast is Our Ancestors Were Messy. I've been speaking with its producer and host, Nicole Hill. It's available on your podcast platform of choice. Thanks for being with us, Nicole. It was a lot of fun.

[Nicole Hill]

Thank you so much for having me. Thank you to the callers. Wow.

[Alison Stewart]

Thank you to the callers. Seriously.

[Nicole Hill]

This is Ira Flaydo, host of Science Friday. For over 30 years, the science Friday team has been reporting high quality science and technology news, making science fun for curious people by covering everything from the outer reaches of space to the rapidly changing world of AI to the tiniest microbes in our bodies. Audiences trust our show because they know we're driven by a mission to inform and serve listeners first and foremost with important news they won't get anywhere else. And our sponsors benefit from that halo effect. For more information on becoming a sponsor, visit sponsorship.wnyc.org.