Pamela Harriman (archival interview) (3:08)

Having, in a way, if one has to live through a war, to have lived through it at the age from 19 was an enormous advantage because you were young so you were less afraid. It was, in a sense, very exciting moment. And I think there were certain things that formed without your knowing it within yourself then that have probably been important in the rest of your life. And I think my father in law's will and complete confidence that eventually we would win that war and that it would be very bloody, but that it would. I think the sort of basic principles that he imparted to us as a family would have been the basis of my. A lot of things that since then I have been able to draw on.

Host/Announcer (4:14)

But once the war was over, Pamela was newly divorced and raising a child. What was she to do? Let's get into it with Sonja Purnell, author of Kingmaker.

Sonya Purnell (4:29)

After the war, where does Pamela Churchill decide to live?

Narrator/Interviewer (4:35)

After all, she was divorced from Randolph. She didn't have much money of her own. She had a child. She was still only 25. Can you believe that? She'd done all of that already and she was 25. And she had tasted excitement, she had tasted power. Imagine thrill of living in Downing street during those years at Churchill side. She was his great confidant, his great support. And now suddenly she had no job. And this was also at a time when society was contracting again. After the war, women were just supposed to go back to the household and be mothers and wives and cook and clean. And I mean, I'm afraid that Pamela was never going to be that kind of woman. She's had a child very young at the age of 20. She, I think it's also fair to say, was never particularly maternal personality. Something which beat herself up about a lot. I mean, it's not that she didn't realize that she'd failed in some ways as a mother, but how was she going to try and find that excitement again? She tried being a journalist. That wasn't going to work. She thought about being a member of Parliament, but that too wasn't going to work. There were hardly any women. They certainly weren't her age. And she wasn't sure she was a conservative anymore anyway. But could she really go to labor, which would have been against Churchill? Probably not. So the only way that she can think of. And this is not unique to her by any means at this point. That she might be able to pursue an interesting life again. Is by hitching up with a man who has an interesting life. And that eventually was Gianni Anieli. Who was the heir to FIT the. You know, the car company in Italy. Now, he was incredibly sexy and attractive. There was a great sort of thrill there for her. But what also really drove her was the fact that she could help him. He had fought the wrong side of the war until right at the end, his. His family company had benefited greatly from supplying Hitler and Mussolini. He now had to rehabilitate himself and his company. To try and prevent the Italian economy falling into ruins. She could see how this would be a good thing. And how she particularly could be the person to help him. She had the connections in London, the connections in Washington. And they got it together. Partly because, you know, this was a great love affair. And partly because she could help him in a way no one else could.

Sonya Purnell (6:54)

He was Catholic, and that was a problem for Pam. How did she try to make herself appealing to a Catholic man?

Narrator/Interviewer (7:01)

That was a problem for her. And her family were pretty staunchly Protestant. A cousin of hers had married a Catholic. And this caused a great uproar. That they got over it eventually because he was at least a duke. But here was this Italian who had been an enemy not that long previously. And he was a Catholic. And he wouldn't marry anyone except another Catholic. So she converted amazingly. And she also took huge steps to get her marriage annulled to a marriage to Randolph annulled. So that she could marry Janny. The only problem is that by the time she converted. By the time her first marriage was annulled, that relationship was falling apart. He was a man who was never going to be faithful. And who had benefited greatly from his relationship with Pamela. But couldn't show her the respect of staying faithful. And she knew that if she married him. There'd always be starlets popping out of wardrobes, as she put it. And he also knew that he would never stop that. And he thought a more sort of traditional Italian woman would put up with it in the way that Pamela never would. So, as she put it, and I think this is very interesting, they split up, but they never parted. And Agnelli, who bored of everyone in his life, was so fickle, called her every Day, this is a mark of great respect. Called her every day the rest of her life at 7am in the morning.

Sonya Purnell (8:24)

At this point though, she's got to find a way to live. She's searching out for someone else. And she sought out, yeah, Baron de Roth's child. Why did she go after him?

Narrator/Interviewer (8:39)

Well, she wasn't after love this time, she was after money. I, I think we, you know, we need to be as clear as that. I think she came to love him and became very fond of him, but she never had the thrill, the physical and emotional thrill that she'd had with Danieli. She was with him for five years. He became incredibly dependent on her too, in other ways. But again, I don't think that was ever going to work. A the Rothschilds wouldn't allow him to marry a converted Catholic. The Jewish people obviously in Paris had suffered so greatly during the war, including Elie himself. And this was. To marry outside the faith would have been unimaginable anyway. He was already married. But also he didn't, he wasn't that interested in politics. And still this gnaws away at Pamela. She wants to get back into the political fray. So on both sides, Ellie was not the answer.

Sonya Purnell (9:34)

At times she was referred to as ruthless for her behavior in pursuing this relationship. What changed that people thought about her as ruthless?

Narrator/Interviewer (9:47)

Well, I think because Elie de Rothschild's wife, who'd waited for him during the war, was widely liked. She wasn't a beautiful siren like Pamela, but she was funny and people enjoyed her company. And I think actually I talk about Pamela's strategic nature. I think this was a strategic error that she chose Ellie because it did give her. People gave her a hard time about this. And I think it was a bad decision. Decision. Even though, as she quite rightly pointed out, if it hadn't been her, would have been someone else. He was always going to take a mistress. But you know, we're talking about quite different rules for men and women here. You know, the same rules certainly didn't apply. And so people called her her ruthless. And you can also argue. And she used to say this was entirely fair game. It wasn't that she was seeking, you know, someone with a normal job than a normal salary. These were always people with extraordinary lives, you know, vineyards, yachts, palaces. But again, even with Ellie, she completely versed herself in, in, in vintages so that she could talk wine with him and horses so that she could talk racing with him. She always had this ability to make herself expert in the areas that her men were interested in. So again, it wasn't just that she was supremely attractive and attentive. It was also that you could have incredibly good conversations with her. She was a great raconteur and she could mimic very well. But I mean, people so divided, you either loved Pamela or you hated her.

Sonya Purnell (11:26)

Where is her son Winston in all of this? He sort of comes and goes.

Narrator/Interviewer (11:32)

He comes and goes. So initially she has him to go to school in Switzerland so that she's living quite near him by now that she's living on mainland Europe. The Churchill family then kick up a fuss about this. So he is sent back to England. She goes to Eton and sometimes when she goes to visit him, the other boys won't believe that she's his mother. Suit. She's so beautiful, young looking, they say. Who was that fabulous redhead you were with the other night? My mother. Don't be ridiculous. He, he kind of suffered a bit for that. You have to feel sorry for some ways, in some ways for young Winston. I mean, his father was a terrible father. His mother meant well, but didn't manage to be the sort of hands on mother that he really needed. He was at school where he was also bullied. He'd lived abroad. He had at the beginning a very slight French accent. He also bore the name Winston Churchill and his grandfather was now Prime Minister again and he was severely bullied for that. So although she never wanted to send him to Eton, could see why the family wanted to, but it wasn't a great success for him.

Sonya Purnell (12:40)

My guest is Sonya Purnell. We're talking about her book, Pamela Harriman's Astonishing Life of Power, Seduction and Intrigue. It's our choice for full bio. Come to live in the States.

Narrator/Interviewer (12:51)

She eventually met someone by the name of Leland Haywood, who is best known for bringing us the musical the Sound of Music. She met him when she came over to the States on a trip. And someone needed to have a spare man to go to the makeup of foursome, to go to theater. His then wife, Slim thought that Leland would never be a target for Pamela because he wasn't nearly rich enough. He actually had to work for a living. How wrong Slim was. And that marriage was already on the rocks. Leland's career after the Sound of Music was struggling. He was struggling. He was drinking too much. Slim was fed up with being a nanny, wasn't interested in what he was doing. So much now and then he meets Pamela and Pamela makes it quite clear, oh, well, if you were with me, I would help your career. I Would help you in every way. And look how wonderfully sexy I am. Well, Leila remembered meeting her once on a yacht when she was still with. With Agnelli, because how could you forget? She used to wander around on deck wearing absolutely nothing except vast diamonds. It's not the sort of thing you forget. And now meeting her again, yeah, was, you know, quite a thing. He's very excited. And she can see her ticket to America, where she'd wanted to go really ever since the war. And I think, you know, again, there was a genuine aff. I mean, let's not say that she was just doing it for what she wanted to do. She could always see two things at once. Here was a nice guy, they got on really well, but here also was her ticket to America. So once he got his divorce, which took a long time, they did finally get married. And for a while they're happy, but that doesn't last.

Sonya Purnell (14:38)

A lot of people remember Slim Keith from this book, which has since become an FX series. And I should mention that Pamela Harriman was sort of a swan and she was depicted in Truman Capote's version of the Ladies who Lunched. Why was her depiction in that article? Why was it so devastating?

Narrator/Interviewer (15:05)

She was very different from the other swans. I mean, she had this great desire for a career of her own. She was poorer than them by now. Leland turned out not to be nearly as rich as anyone thought. They were the sort of women who had a maid just to iron their curtains and that kind of thing could lunch all day. Not that they ever ate anything, obviously, but they were all slim. So she was different. And also she had slept with quite a lot of their husbands, which I guess didn't help, I mean, you know, during the war or she was, you know, married to one of obviously Slim's ex husband. So this hardly made her popular, I think it's fair to say. But it's also interesting that I read a. A review, sorry, an interview with the hairdresser, the same guy, Kenneth, who used to do all their hair and in New York, and he was asked to compare the swans, what they were really like, because, you know, hairdressers get to know us pretty well, right? And he said, oh, the one without an ego, the one actually he bothered to ask about me was. Was Pamela. So I think, you know, quite often, well, very often in Pamela's life, the public perception was not quite the reality. Sure, she could be ruthless, sure she went after what she wanted, but there was a kinder side to her. And I think Quite often, you know, ask a hairdresser to find out the truth about someone.

Sonya Purnell (16:31)

Leland's daughter really hated Pamela. How much did Pamela earn some of that hatred? And how much of it was a daughter unhappy about her mother being replaced?

Narrator/Interviewer (16:43)

She clearly was unhappy about her mother being replaced. She was unhappy about a lot of things she was unhappy about. I think maybe most of all her father not giving her enough attention. He was always a workaholic, which is why he, you know, one of the reasons why he ruined his health. But now, suddenly, he was showing attention to this new woman. Her mother had long since been divorced, and Slim had been the wife in between. They'd got fond of Slim, and now there was a new woman. And she really did take against her because this time her father really, really seemed smitten. And as I say, for a while, they were clearly very happy. I think also money entered into it. He. He had lost a lot of money. He was spending too much, way more than he earned. It looked like that Pamela was benefiting from the family money in the way that she wasn't. There are all sorts of complex emotional, financial reasons here, and I'm afraid to say that, yeah, they really spectacularly fell out. And that relationship was never repaired. Whereas Pamela's relationship with the son got a little better. He actually at one point apologized for the way that he behaved towards Pamela. These are very complicated relationships, and it was a very, very troubling time for Pamela became extremely unhappy. Even worse when her friend JFK was assassinated. I mean, they'd gone on seeing each other and. And he'd become friends with. With Leland, too. And they would have dinner together, the four of them, Jack, Jackie, Pamela, and Leland often. And. And Jack would help her out when one of Leland's musicals was struggling. JFK deliberately broke off during the Cuban Missile Crisis to be seen at that musical to try and get help. So, you know, paranormal was trying to do her best, but certainly messed up that relationship with Brooke. And, you know, I think there was bad feeling on both sides.

Sonya Purnell (18:56)

Her marriage to Leland was cut short by his death in 1971, and she was left with very little. She was poor enough that, you write Brooke Astor had to buy her a dress to wear to the funeral. Do we know what happened to all the money?

Narrator/Interviewer (19:11)

Well, he told a friend who told me that, you know, while he was ill and before he died, he said, I know there's enough money to keep going while I'm still alive, but there won't be anything for Pamela once I've gone. And you Know, he didn't seem to mind about that too much. I think he thought probably she could fend for herself. So he was wildly overspending, manically overspending, because the money just wasn't coming in anymore. And she didn't really realize that. I mean, she'd sold her apartment in Paris, used the money from that to buy themselves a. A place in New York, but had to sell that for a smaller place, constantly put her own money into the black financial hole that he had created. So, yeah, I mean, and she really did wake up, you know, once he died, there was nothing, nothing in the bank accounts. And that's absolutely right. Brooke Astor bought her a dress for the funeral. She put on a good show, but she was distraught.

Sonya Purnell (20:11)

Once Pamela got to the United States, she became very aware of wanting something substantive, like Catherine Graham of the Washington Post. What did she want for herself in America?

Narrator/Interviewer (20:26)

She wanted being 25 not to be the most exciting moment in her life anymore. She wanted to be able to do something important, strategic, powerful, geopolitical, if possible. How could she possibly get back to that sort of excitement? How could she possibly get back to the center of power now? She had a new name and she's a new country. What could she do that might potentially open doors to her Still? Women were not really politicians. It just was sort of unthinkable. They were sort of, at best, political hostesses. She wanted to somehow to get back to the center of power again. So we're now talking, you know, 25 years since the end of the war. All that time she's wanted to be back in politics. She's never succeeded. But then finally, finally a door opens to her.

Host/Announcer (21:21)

Tomorrow, in full bio, we'll look at Pamela Harriman's detractors and how she managed to become the American ambassador to France.

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