Ira Flatow (3:19)

What did you learn from that experience?

Patti Griffin (3:24)

I just really learned a little bit more about who my mom was, which I had missed a lot of. And it, it kind of occurred to me about 10 or 15 years ago that I didn't know her very well at all, and I just knew I needed to and put some work into that.

Ira Flatow (3:46)

You started the album with that sort of upbeat track. Why did you choose it to be the first song and what tone did it set for the rest of the record?

Patti Griffin (3:55)

I thought it was a little more friendly than some of the other stuff on the record. It was. It's kind of, you know, it's a happy or sounding thing. I think it's the only one on the record that's like that, too. So everything's a little bit more. I was trying out some new ways to sing and. New. You know, I'm sort of getting older and voices changed and been through this and that and the other things. So just, you know, experimenting a little bit with sound. So I kind of started with something that was maybe a little bit more familiar for everybody.

Ira Flatow (4:33)

You want to set the table a.

Patti Griffin (4:34)

Little bit like here.

Ira Flatow (4:35)

It's a nice, safe table. Sit down now we'll talk about stuff.

Patti Griffin (4:38)

Right? Exactly.

Ira Flatow (4:40)

It was a song, though, I read was. It was. It was an old idea. An old song that came back to you?

Patti Griffin (4:48)

Well, I wrote the song. I went through a period of time, probably from like 2019 through this last year, where I would write stuff and then just immediately think, that's terrible, and not use it. But this song, I, back at the start, had a version that we played at a band rehearsal, and everybody said, let's just do this tonight. And we did it. And I was, like, reading the lyrics, and I don't see very well. So we did it live, and I couldn't see what I was doing, and it didn't go very well. So I just kind of went, well, we're not going to do that anymore. And. And then I found it on my little voicemails of voice memos and thought, well, that's. That's not so bad. But I couldn't remember the lyrics and I had to rewrite it sort of. But that's how that came about.

Ira Flatow (5:43)

That's kind of interesting. How often does that happen, that you just toss something aside and then come back around to it and think, oh, this might be the right time?

Patti Griffin (5:51)

It did a lot for me. I think I had a confidence crisis. You know, I used to write really based on what my voice wanted to do, and then my voice didn't do what I wanted it to do for quite a while. And so I had to sort of find new ways of writing. And now my voice is kind of matching up a little bit more with what I want to write, what I want to write. But, yeah, it was hard to know whether things were keepers or not because I would always have a feeling inside of my body from singing that would tell me, this is. Keep this. And I wasn't able to do that for a while, so I had to adjust.

Ira Flatow (6:39)

When did the album start to take shape? When did you really feel like? I've got a series of songs that I can make into a record.

Patti Griffin (6:48)

I sent. I was trying to get Craig Ross interested in producing yet another record for me, and I sent him a pile of these voice memos. And just listening down through, I went, wow, he's going to really like these. And he did. Yeah.

Ira Flatow (7:09)

It was that simple.

Patti Griffin (7:11)

Yeah. And I realized that there was something here. I wasn't really thinking, you know, let's go make a record that people talk about. I really just wanted to put a record out that I'm, you know, I'm 61. I'm just lucky to have been here this long, you know, So I just was gonna put a record out that the fans would have something new to listen to, you know, I felt like I really needed to do that.

Ira Flatow (7:37)

Anyway, My guest is singer, songwriter and music and Patti Griffin. She just released her latest studio album, Crown of Roses. She joins us for a listening party before performing at Sony hall on West 46th street tomorrow night at 8pm It's a listening party, so let's listen to some more music from the album. This is a song titled I Know a Way, and you hear it's Bucka Allen playing organ, an electric piano on this song. How'd you hook up with him? And why did the organ seem like the right instrument to use?

Patti Griffin (8:12)

The organ was Craig's call. And we just. Bucka I've known for 25 years or so, you know, we just live in the same town, so that's kind of it.

Ira Flatow (8:25)

He seems like a really the right person to send your song to, even if you didn't. Even if he didn't write it, you could send it to him and he would have something to add to it.

Patti Griffin (8:37)

Buckeye. Yeah, there's a lot of that going on on this record. Oh, Tom Austin's got a great scene still, even though we're kind of finding it hard to rent. You guys can relate to that here. But, yeah, there's still amazing musicians there.

Ira Flatow (8:55)

Oh, I used to go to Austin all the time. The Ugly Americans. Do you remember them?

Patti Griffin (8:59)

Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Hanging out with him a lot. Enough said.

Ira Flatow (9:03)

Let's listen to Patty Griffin.

Patti Griffin (9:05)

I Know a way.

Patty Griffin (9:09)

You can't go down that road the one that you knew so well it disappeared in a landslide there's not a plane in the air that's going to get you there. Believe me. It's been tried and tried and tried Sometimes you feel like a fool to try and try again to keep on singing out Straight into the wheel.

Patti Griffin (10:21)

With.

Patty Griffin (10:22)

All the bells ringing yeah so many voices singing Trying and trying to bring love, love, love, love But I know a way at least I heard of a way.

Ira Flatow (10:48)

That's Patty Griffin with I Know a Way. The first line you hear in that song is, you can't go down that road, the one that you knew so well. What were you thinking about when you were writing that line?

Patti Griffin (11:05)

You know, sometimes life does that to you. I mean, God, it's doing it to everybody on the globe right now in different degrees. You know, it's just like it or not, it's just you're not immune from these massive changes that are happening to life on the planet. You know what I mean? It's just gonna. And you just gotta keep going, figure out how to keep going. I mean, that's just that simple. I know a way is kind of taken from. It's like a tipping the hat to the gospel song, you know, I know a way to get over and how I got over that song. So I listen to a lot of gospel music, like, because just kind of serves this thing inside you. You. It. It kind of gets you to keep going, you know, I'm not really particularly Christian, but I really love music that's kind of set up to empower, you know, and I think like that kind of expression.

Ira Flatow (12:14)

If someone wanted to get into gospel, what are two tracks they should listen to after this interview's over?

Patti Griffin (12:21)

Oh, God, I would just get Freedom highway by the Staples Singers. You know, that's a really great place to start going to school. Yeah.

Ira Flatow (12:31)

All right, everybody get Freedom highway.

Patti Griffin (12:33)

According to Patty Griffin.

Ira Flatow (12:35)

I want to talk to you about a phrase used in a New York Times profile that was done on you. You should read it, by the way. It's the come apart. You wrote that in this New York Times piece that you hope that the album Crown of Roses and your mother's passing are the capstone of a nearly two decade period that you've called the come apart. So first of all, what is the come apart?

Patti Griffin (12:59)

I think, you know, everybody kind of is in their life and they're going along and sometimes you're aware and sometimes you're not aware that you're you kind of like how things are going, but it's not exactly where you feel like you belong? And I think I was sort of. When I got to do music full time, I was just so excited to do music full time that I was like, yeah, whatever you got to do, I'll do that. And I kind of drifted away from some of my early joys of making music, I think, and I couldn't. I had a really hard time just figuring out how to get that to all, you know, go back to a much more natural thing for me. Does that make any sense? And I think I would, like, daydream about just blowing it all up and going and becoming a hermit for a while. And, you know, and I didn't have to, because my life kind of did that anyway. It kind of blew up on me. So in small ways, nothing really. You know, fortunately, very disastrous. Just kind of. Things just kind of. There were a few train wrecks in the last 15 years that kind of forced me to go small and get, you know, with myself.

Ira Flatow (14:20)

You had cancer?

Patti Griffin (14:22)

Yeah. That's what we're talking about. One of them, yeah. Yeah.

Ira Flatow (14:25)

And, you know, one of the difficulties is that you ended up losing your voice.

Patti Griffin (14:31)

Yeah.

Ira Flatow (14:31)

Due to radiation treatment, first of all. What was that like?

Patti Griffin (14:36)

Awful. You know, you can relate.

Ira Flatow (14:39)

I can relate.

Patti Griffin (14:41)

You know, it's an identity crisis for sure, you know.

Ira Flatow (14:45)

Did you have a moment when you.

Patti Griffin (14:46)

Thought, okay, I'm gonna go work in a bookstore?

Ira Flatow (14:50)

Like, what am I gonna. What am I gonna do? I can't sing. I can't express myself the way I'm used to.

Patti Griffin (14:55)

I was thinking I might be able to get good at bagging groceries. I really, really like doing that where I go, you know, they'll let me bag my own groceries sometimes, and I'm getting really pretty good at it. So anyway, yeah, I didn't. I didn't know if I was retired or not for sure for a while.

Ira Flatow (15:19)

What made you keep going?

Patti Griffin (15:24)

I would go and do shows, and it's really humbling to have a relationship with an audience for 30 years. You know, some people. And, you know, people just. They show up year after year, record after record, and they. They. They want this service from you. And it's. It's. I think when I was younger, I thought of it as, like, this effort I had to make. I didn't really see until I got older that it's like a generosity that's coming back towards you. And so it's kind of. It just made me inspired to keep going and. And Just the act of singing in the most basic way, just humming along to a record or something. It always makes you feel better, you know, and why not just do that? You know, however it sounds, keep doing.

Ira Flatow (16:20)

That, you know, Was there anything a fan said to you that has stuck with you during that period when you weren't quite sure if you were going to sing again or if you were going to sing differently? And was that okay?

Patti Griffin (16:34)

Probably there was, but I can't think of anything right now. You know, I think I just needed to find a natural voice inside of me because it had changed very dramatically and very quickly. So it took a while. Still working on that, you know, my mind.

Ira Flatow (16:56)

We're talking to singer, songwriter and musician Patty Griffin. Her new album is called Crown of Roses. She's joining us for a listening party. It's time to listen to another song. This is a song called Born in a Cage. Can you tell us a little bit about the backstory behind this?

Patti Griffin (17:14)

This is like a co write. We started making this song. Michael Longoria and David Pulking were doing a show in Montana and we were doing a sound check and Michael was playing some beats and I started humming and David. It just seemed like something was happening. So I hit the voice memo and then wrote lyrics to it. Later called Born. I just wanted to be born in a cage. So that's when it is.

Ira Flatow (17:49)

This is Patti Griffin.

Patty Griffin (18:05)

All over the world the little birds stop singing Morning comes to the trees but they are gone maybe they're fast asleep somewhere or tired or finally forgotten the song. Year after year they disappear from the valley Year after year they disappear From a higher plains Mothers still cry but after a while no one's searching.

Patti Griffin (19:03)

Just.

Patty Griffin (19:04)

A faded sign in the rain Another day goes by in this strange age do they run or do they hide from me?

Ira Flatow (19:26)

I love the clapping in the background. My favorite part.

Patti Griffin (19:30)

It's Craig. He loves to clap. He's clapping all over this record. He's like, I clapped there. Is that okay? I'm leaving it. Okay. Yeah.

Ira Flatow (19:38)

Well, it's interesting because you cited Brazilian singer Rosa Paseos.

Patti Griffin (19:43)

Rosa.

Ira Flatow (19:44)

Thank you. She's amazing. Go look her up. But Rick Lee Jones and Billie Holiday and your mom as inspiration for you vocally, what do all those women have in common?

Patti Griffin (19:57)

They're broken hearted, I think. Except I don't know about Rosa Pasos. She doesn't look brokenhearted, but I think to sing like that, you have to be. There's like a very clear presentation of like my. My. My superpower is. I know how to sit with brokenheartedness and. And sing it out and. And it heals. It helps people somehow, you know, and it's. You know, it's quite a service, actually. You know, Billie Holiday, I spent some time thinking a lot about her in the last few years, and she, you know, like, you know, there's so much about her life that's out there that, you know, you know, all about her tragedies, and it really is to get to sing that Close to the bone every. Every single time. I mean, it. It's. That's quite a service because it does really serve people. Sure. To have that music to listen to, you know, it's. It's a. I don't know.

Ira Flatow (21:09)

No, I think poetry is that way too.

Patti Griffin (21:11)

Yeah.

Ira Flatow (21:11)

When people are feeling things, they want to hear music or they want to read poetry.

Patti Griffin (21:15)

Yeah. Yeah.

Ira Flatow (21:18)

Your mom's on this album quite a bit. How would you describe how she's on this album?

Patti Griffin (21:28)

I don't want to describe it.

Ira Flatow (21:29)

I'd rather hear you describe it.

Patti Griffin (21:31)

Well, there's actually a song about her which she never got to hear. She passed away before this record was finished, but. So she's literally on this record. But she. I think the experiences that I've had with her in the last 10 years of life have been. Have shaped so much of where I'm at now. And I don't think that she and I had a close relationship for a very long period of time. And I. And I. And while we were rebuilding it, I was thinking it's really too bad we didn't. But then I'm. I think one of the things that I've learned from sort of rebuilding my relationship with my mother is, like, how much power there is in certain. Certain places in the world that don't get any attention at all. You know, it's kind of where it's. The engine of the world is not getting any attention. The engine just keeps being the engine. Does that make any sense at all? And she was part of that. She was part of that story of just. She was an engine that made a lot happen and sent a lot out into the world. And at the end of her life, she wasn't really even sure that she had been a good mom even, or, you know, like, she had all these doubts about everything. She questioned everything about herself. And. Because we just don't tend to look at those people as powerful very often in our culture. And I. I learned that that is the power. That is the one. That's the one that I am really interested in. Listening to now.

Ira Flatow (23:35)

We got this amazing text that says, I saw Patty in 2016 at the Old City Winery. She played with a guy who added a second guitar. Just the two of them. An amazing show.

Patti Griffin (23:44)

Oh wow.

Ira Flatow (23:46)

Patti Griffin's latest album is Crown of Roses. It's out now. She's a show tomorrow night at Sony hall on West 46th street at 8pm Patti, thanks for joining us.

Patti Griffin (23:56)

Thank you for having me.

Ira Flatow (23:57)

We're gonna go out on the song Way up to the Sky.

Patty Griffin (24:17)

It was a hard time it was a long line it was a steep climb Too many kids to handle.

Patti Griffin (24:30)

She.

Patty Griffin (24:30)

Got her kids raised and her nerves.

Patti Griffin (24:34)

Free.

Patty Griffin (24:37)

As light blazed her eyes made out of candles those lumber trucks kept rolling south with their loads of at.

Ira Flatow (24:53)

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