Pete Wells on His 12 Years as a Restaurant Critic

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Pete Wells on His 12 Years as a Restaurant Critic"

Podcast: All Of It (WNYC)
Host: Alison Stewart
Date: July 17, 2024
Guest: Pete Wells, outgoing New York Times restaurant critic

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Overview

In this episode, Alison Stewart conducts an "exit interview" with Pete Wells as he steps down after 12 years as the New York Times' influential restaurant critic. They discuss the evolution of New York’s food scene, the challenges and responsibilities of the job, Wells’ process, the impact of health concerns, how food criticism is changing in the era of TikTok, and notable moments from his career. The episode mixes listener engagement with introspective, revealing, and often humorous insights from Wells himself.

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Main Discussion Points and Insights

How Pete Wells Became a Restaurant Critic

• (03:06) Wells recounts his somewhat accidental path to food writing, stating that while he wrote about various topics, food was always the most enjoyable and the area where he kept getting assignments.

  “Food was really always the most fun, and it was the one that I kept getting asked to do again and again. So it just sort of became my career.” (03:13, Pete Wells)

• Becoming a dedicated restaurant critic only became a real consideration upon joining the New York Times.

Responsibilities as NYT Restaurant Critic

• (03:55) Wells discusses the expectation of a weekly review and supplementary writing—shifting to biweekly only a year ago.
• He reflects on the critic’s role: not to advocate for or against the industry but to serve the readers—regardless of their backgrounds and preferences.

  “The job’s not to help the industry or to hurt the industry. The job is to help readers.” (04:33, Pete Wells)

Reviewing Process: How the Sausage Gets Made

• (05:24) Wells attempts to try everything on the menu (when feasible), often sampling dozens of dishes to fairly represent a restaurant. With huge menus, he sets a reasonable limit.
• Beyond food, he observes the environment, service, and the overall experience to vividly “bring the whole scene to life” in his reviews.

  “You’re trying to take in all this other stuff...how’s the room? How are the people? Is the service hesitant, or a well-oiled machine?...All this stuff, you try to absorb it while you’re paying attention to the food.” (05:37, Pete Wells)

The Physical Toll & “Taboo” Health Issues

• (07:38) Stewart highlights Wells’ candor about health being a reason for leaving—a topic that, according to Wells, food critics rarely discuss openly.
• Wells acknowledges the pressure of the job, the expectation to “put away all these meals and all the wine and the cocktails...when you’re younger, you kind of can do that. It just gets harder.”

  “It’s depressing to admit that you’re frail and mortal...but it just gets harder.” (08:05, Pete Wells)

For Whom Does the Critic Eat?

• Wells refers to his farewell essay, in which he asks whether he’s eating for the audience or himself. The answer, he says, is always “both,” as reporting and consumption become intertwined:

  “You’re filling your notebook as you’re filling your stomach. And the two things are hard to separate.” (09:13, Pete Wells)

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Listener Contributions & Iconic Reviews

On Bringing Backup – Dining Companions

• (10:10) Responding to a listener question, Wells explains he brings others to sample more dishes (and to avoid looking “like you’ve lost your mind” by ordering dozens of items alone):

  “I do bring backup…They notice stuff. They point things out. They often, you know, draw my attention to things that I might have missed.” (10:34, Pete Wells)

The Guy Fieri Review

• (11:03) A listener describes the infamous scathing Guy Fieri review as a “masterpiece,” noting it inspired them to visit for themselves. Wells remarks:

  “What’s wild to me about that story… is that the restaurant had time to repair all of those things before you went in there. And somehow that didn’t happen. Which…is one of the many mysteries of that restaurant.” (11:40, Pete Wells)

• Stewart reads a memorable passage from the review:

  “Is the shapeless structure, Baked Alaska, that droops and slumps and collapses…supposed to be a representation in sugar and eggs of the experience of going insane? Why did the toasted marshmallows taste like fish?” (12:14, Alison Stewart quoting Pete Wells)

Honesty and Restraint in Reviewing

• Wells says an older critic advised him to be “completely honest and then pull back…a half step,” to maintain credibility.

  “If you say how bad it is, people don’t believe you…That’s the case with some of probably all of my really well-known negative reviews. I held back a little bit.” (12:27, Pete Wells)

Exploring NYC Through Food

• (13:19) A listener credits Wells with encouraging exploration of new neighborhoods and cuisines, solidifying his role in expanding readers’ culinary horizons.

  “That’s probably the best thing I could hear.” (13:47, Pete Wells)

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Changing Food Criticism in the Internet Age

Crowdsourcing and the Decline of Traditional Criticism

• (14:29) Responding to a listener, Wells notes that while crowdsourcing (Yelp, Google, social media) is now many people’s source for food opinions, traditional reviews are more deeply reported and edited, though perhaps becoming “a bit of a dinosaur.”

  “The old traditional restaurant review is a different model. It’s extensively reported…It may be a bit of a dinosaur at this point, but… I’ve enjoyed doing it.” (14:39, Pete Wells)

Influence of TikTok and Viral Food

• (15:37) Wells observes that social media hasn’t necessarily changed criticism, but has changed which dishes are created—a focus on visual, “extreme” cuisine designed to “cut through all the noise.”

  “If you make something that’s very extreme looking…All of that stuff is great for TikTok…Now I think it kind of is [good] because it’ll cut through all the noise." (15:53, Pete Wells)

Fascination with Fine Dining in Pop Culture

• (17:03) Addressing why high-end restaurants fascinate us (in shows like The Bear, The Menu):

  “It encapsulates so many things going on in our culture…the pursuit of pleasure…class stratification that everyone feels and…a lot of people have this growing resentment about…Restaurants are a place where that all plays out.” (17:03, Pete Wells)

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Looking Forward: Life After The Times

What’s Next for Pete Wells?

• (18:04) Wells hopes to write more broad cultural criticism (“still with a food focus”) but without the heavy physical toll.

  “My hope is to kind of write more cultural criticism, but still with a food focus and without the need to go out every single night.” (18:09, Pete Wells)

The Ever-Louder Restaurant

• (18:29) Responding to a quick-fire listener question, Wells has “conflicting feelings about noise” in dining rooms, but the discussion is cut short by technical issues.

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Closing Advice and Parting Words

Advice for the Next NYT Restaurant Critic

• (18:58) Wells cautions his successor:

  “Try to make the job bite size. You know, don’t feel like you have to eat every single thing in New York because there is so much, and it just gets bigger every day, and you don’t want to get bigger every day. So just be careful.” (19:04, Pete Wells)

Final Thoughts

• Stewart expresses collective gratitude as the show wraps, and Wells responds warmly:

  “Thank you. It’s been nice to be back and I hope I’m still interesting in the future and we can talk again.” (19:30, Pete Wells)

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Notable Quotes

• “You’re filling your notebook as you’re filling your stomach. And the two things are hard to separate.” (09:13, Pete Wells)
• “If you say how bad it is, people don’t believe you…That’s the case with some of probably all of my really well-known negative reviews. I held back a little bit.” (12:27, Pete Wells)
• “Try to make the job bite size…don’t feel like you have to eat every single thing in New York because there is so much, and it just gets bigger every day, and you don’t want to get bigger every day.” (19:04, Pete Wells)

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Episode Timestamps for Key Moments

• 03:06 – Wells on becoming a food writer
• 03:55 – On the primary responsibility of serving readers
• 05:24 – Review process: sampling the menu and the dining scene
• 07:38 – Physical/health challenges of the job
• 10:10 – Use of dining companions in research
• 11:03 – Listener feedback on Guy Fieri review; critique and its effects
• 14:29 – On crowdsourced vs. traditional criticism
• 15:37 – How TikTok and influencers have changed food culture
• 17:03 – Why fine dining fascinates popular culture
• 18:04 – Wells’ post-NYT plans
• 18:58 – Advice for the next critic

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Summary

This episode reflects on how a single critic can influence, reflect, and be changed by a city’s vibrant food culture. Wells’ insights touch on the lived experience behind the bylines, the power and responsibility of criticism, and the ongoing evolution of media and culinary trends. For longtime readers, New Yorkers, and lovers of food criticism, the conversation serves both as a sendoff and a meditation on taste, work, and changing times.

Transcript

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[Radio Host Alison Stewart]

You're listening to all of it on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. After 12 years, New York Times Restaurant critic Pete Wells is moving on. He scoured the boroughs for the best slice of pizza given stars to find dining establishments and food trucks, and even ranked the 100 best restaurants in the entire city. A great Pete Wells review can elevate a restaurant. A bad one. It can be a little trouble. Now, in an essay for the Times, Pete gets candid about the health concerns that accompany the job. He shares that reviewing a single restaurant can mean eating up to 36 different dishes. And while eating dozens of different smash burgers and cheesecake and tacos around the city can be fun, it's not exactly good for you. And as he says, having a job like that at the New York Times is like renting a tux. He's ready to return it. He writes, at some point it occurred to me that I am not my job. Before Pete heads off to something new, we wanted to invite him on the show for an exit interview. Let's talk about how food in New York has changed the last 12 years and to reflect on his time as a restaurant critic. Pete, welcome back.

[Pete Wells]

Oh, thank you for having me back, listeners.

[Radio Host Alison Stewart]

We'd like to invite you in on the conversation. Do you have a favorite Pete Wells review? Did one of Pete's reviews convince you to try a restaurant? Or maybe you had to step away from a job for health Reasons, for some reason, experience. What's your words of wisdom? Give us a call. 2124-3396-9221-2433. WNYC. You can call us or text to us at that number. So let's go all the way back. How did you get into food criticism?

[Pete Wells]

How did I. It's been so long, I don't remember. I mean, I've been writing about food on and off since the 90s, and I was writing about a lot of other things in the beginning, but food was really always the most fun, and it was the one that I kept getting asked to do again and again. So it just sort of became my career. You know, it just took off that way. But I didn't really think about restaurant reviewing, and I didn't think it would be all that interesting until I got to the Times and it came up as a real possibility. And. And then, you know, I found it totally fascinating once I started doing it.

[Radio Host Alison Stewart]

What did you consider your main responsibilities.

As the restaurant critic for the New York Times?

[Pete Wells]

That's so interesting. I mean, it. I mean, you know, on the basic level of not getting fired, you know, I had to turn in copy every week, right? I had to turn in one review up until about a year ago when we went to every other week, but I had to turn in one review a week and write some other stuff. But then if you think about the broader responsibilities, it's really interesting, and it changes over time. You could think of yourself as sort of trying to reflect the values of the restaurant business, the restaurant industry. I often get letters from people saying, thank you for what you've done for the industry or curse you for the terrible things you've done to the industry. But. And I think you can get into that way of seeing things, but it's not really the job. The job's not to. To. To help the industry or to hurt the industry. The job is to help readers. So, you know, the longer I did it, the more I thought about that and the more I had a broader sense of who the readers were, that they could be anywhere, they could have any budget, they could be anywhere in the city, and they might love going out to a fancy meal or they might hate it, and I wanted to try to serve all of them.

[Radio Host Alison Stewart]

What was your typical process for reviewing a restaurant? What would you go in there and.

Take a look for?

[Pete Wells]

Wow. Yeah. You go in and first of all, you do try to eat everything on the menu. Sometimes that's just not possible. A lot of, especially Chinese Restaurants have these menus with hundreds and hundreds of dishes and you, at some point you have to say, okay, I will never, ever, ever eat all these things. But I've had, you know, 40 or 50, so I feel like I'm getting there. But, and then, you know, while you're eating and paying attention to the food and all the obvious things that you would do to, to, you know, analyze the food, try to understand it, try to, you know, keep it in your memory so you can reproduce it for the reader. You're all trying to take in all this other stuff that's happening on the periphery, like how, how's the room? How are people at other tables having a good time? Are people at your table having a good time? Does the service seem, you know, hesitant, nervous, out of step, or, or is it a well oiled machine? You know, is it, is it familial? And, and somet. Sometimes family run restaurants have the best service because they're completely comfortable. You're in their home, they're completely comfortable there. And so all this stuff, you try to absorb it while you're paying attention to the food so that later on you can try to bring the whole scene to life.

[Radio Host Alison Stewart]

My guest is Pete Wells, who is stepping away from his role as restaurant critic for the New York Times after 12 years. We consider this an exit interview if you'd like to join the conversation. Do you have a favorite Pete Wells review? Did one of Pete's reviews convince you to try a restaurant? Or maybe stay away for one? Or maybe you had to step away from a job for health reasons and want to share your experience of words of wisdom? Give us a call. 2124-3396-9221-2433. WNYC. Somebody texted. As a teenager growing up in rural New Jersey, I used to salivate reading Pete Wells reviews and dreaming of a city with seemingly every type of food. Now I'm thankful every day to live in it. Thank you, Pete. We'll miss you.

That's lovely.

[Pete Wells]

Oh, thank you.

[Radio Host Alison Stewart]

So you're very candid in your essay that one of the reasons you're leaving is the job's taken a physical toll on you and that issues around health are sort of a little bit taboo.

Topics among restaurant critics.

Why do you think they felt taboo?

[Pete Wells]

Well, I think we just don't like to talk about it because we all know that it's a dangerous job and if you talk about it too much, you're sort of tempting fate, I guess, and it's depressing, you know, it's just. It's depressing to admit that you're frail and mortal, and it's depressing to admit that there's anything wrong with your body. And you know that you can't just take it. You know that you should be able to just put away all these meals and all the wine and the cocktails and everything else that comes with it and just take it in stride. And, you know, when you're younger, you kind of can do that. It just gets harder.

[Radio Host Alison Stewart]

Every year, you write in your farewell essay, when, in the line of duty, you have spent enough hours loading up your tray with mashed potatoes, rolls, biscuits, and an extra slice of pie, you eventually have to ask yourself whether you are standing in the buffet line for the audience or for yourself. Did you answer the question?

[Pete Wells]

Well, I don't know if I've totally answered it, because the tricky thing about it is it's really both. It's always. There's always. You know, as a restaurant critic, you're a reporter, you're a journalist, so you're gathering material, You're. You're gathering string, as journalists say. And you're. And you're filling your notebook as you're filling your stomach. And the two things are hard to separate. Why? Maybe I do need to eat all 200 things on the. On the menu. Maybe 50 isn't enough. Maybe I need to come back two, three, four more times. And sometimes I've. I've gone down these. These just paths of gluttony because I thought I needed it to be able to, you know, report, to be able to understand the place. It's hard to tease out.

[Radio Host Alison Stewart]

Let's take a call.

Paul from Manhattan has a question for you.

Hi, Paul.

Thanks for calling, all of it.

What's your question?

[Caller Paul]

Hey, Allison. Yes, I just had a question for Pete. And I love his reviews. They're always eloquently written. But when he goes into a restaurant, does he order? Does he go by himself? Or does he bring a group of people and the different people order different things so he can try them all? Or does he sit there and eat entree after entree after entree?

[Pete Wells]

Well, I do. I do bring back up in a normal a la carte restaurant, I need help. Right. Partly just because you would look so strange if you ordered the whole menu. I mean, I do want to taste, you know, as you said, about, you know, about 36 things at the minimum before I can write a review. But if I ordered all 36 at once and sat there and tasted them, the Whole dining room would be staring at me. So you bring people so you don't look like you've lost your mind. And they're also helpful. They notice stuff. They point things out. They often, you know, draw my attention to things that I might have missed.

[Radio Host Alison Stewart]

Let's take a call. Mark from the West Village. Hi, Mark. Thanks for calling, all of it. You're on the air with Pete Wells.

[Caller Mark]

Hi, Alison. Hi, Pete. Thanks for taking my call. Pete, the Guy Fieri review is a masterpiece. Obviously, it may not have been your intent, but it certainly inspired me to bring all my friends to go to the restaurant. And the way that you so exquisitely described how poorly done the dishes were, was exactly how bad the jacknog was, exactly how bad the donkey sauce was. It really taught me that the reviews are so thoughtful and that you can look at the reviews, go to the restaurant, experience it in a new way. Really grateful for that.

[Radio Host Alison Stewart]

Thank you.

[Pete Wells]

Wow. Thank you. You know, like, what's wild to me about that story, and I've heard it from other people, is that the restaurant had time to repair all of those things before you went in there. And somehow that didn't happen. Which I just. It's one of the many, many mysteries of that restaurant.

[Radio Host Alison Stewart]

I'm going to read a paragraph, because it is. It's beautiful. Is the entire restaurant a very expensive piece of conceptual art? Is the shapeless structure, Baked Alaska, that droops and slumps and collapses? Is why you eat it or donated, supposed to be a representation in sugar.

And eggs of the experience of going insane?

Why did the toasted marshmallows taste like fish? Of the Guy Fieri's restaurant? How frank do you decide to be in your interviews, in your reviews?

[Pete Wells]

How frank? Well, at a basic level, you do want to be honest with the reader, right? Somebody, an older critic, told me when I was starting that his policy was to be completely honest and then pull back like a step or a half step. So if a place was bad to say exactly how bad it was, and then he would soften it just a little bit, because if you sometimes. If you say how bad it is, people don't believe you. You strain credulity. That's the case with some of. Probably all of my, like, really well known negative reviews. I held back a little bit.

[Radio Host Alison Stewart]

This is from Emma in Brooklyn. Pete's review of Mama's Noodles and Bensonhurst from a few years ago is a family favorite. We drove out there during the pandemic often to stock up their frozen dumplings and pick up Their Mapu tofu. My favorite part of his reviews and work is the way he explores New York is such a part of it. I love going to new neighborhoods just because Pete reviewed a restaurant there. He's taken me all across the city to places I wouldn't often go. My family will certainly miss him.

[Pete Wells]

Oh, that's so great. I mean, that's probably the best thing I could hear.

[Radio Host Alison Stewart]

Let's talk to Jackie calling from the Upper east side. Hi, Jackie, you're on the air with Pete Wells.

[Caller Jackie]

Hello, Pete. Thank you so much for all your service these past years. I have clipped many of your reviews and found myself into new culinary adventures as a result of. I've also experienced some health problems myself and are related to your article this morning. So my question is, do the health challenges that are posed by one restaurant reviewer suggest that we need a new model of restaurant review? Maybe more along crowdsourcing perhaps?

[Radio Host Alison Stewart]

Jackie, thanks for the question.

[Pete Wells]

Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, that's going on and has been going on for some time. And I think there are many, many, many people who get their information about food from social media, from the Google reviews or Yelp and they try to look at what many, many people have said and take the average of them or sort whatever system you use to sort through and try to find a median. The old traditional restaurant review is a different model. It's extensively reported and that some time is spent in thinking about it and writing it, putting it together and editing it. And you know, it may be, it may be a bit of a dinosaur at this point, but it's, you know, I've enjoyed doing it.

[Radio Host Alison Stewart]

Let's talk about Internet and TikTok culture. There are now, there are so many food influencers telling people where to eat in the city.

How do you think the advent of.

TikTok has changed the landscape of food.

Criticism and the restaurant world in general?

[Pete Wells]

Well, I don't know if it's changed food criticism so much as it's sort of opened up new avenues of information and maybe new ways of marketing food, new ways of getting your food out in front of the public, which in turn have changed the kinds of food that people are making. Right. So if you make something that's very extreme looking, it's, it's really huge or it's, it's, you know, it, it, something happens to it while you're eating it, or you cut, you cut it open and it, and it sort of sauce explodes. Right? All of that stuff is great for TikTok because in The. In five or six seconds, something unexpected happens. It gets your attention, you watch it again. And those kinds of dishes that sort of, like, stop you in your tracks and make you go, oh, what was that? That's weird. That didn't used to be a good thing. Serving food that people thought was weird was not necessarily a good thing. Now I think it kind of is because it'll cut through all the noise on people's Internet lives and get them to remember.

[Radio Host Alison Stewart]

There seems to be this interest in fine dining, from dark comedies like the Menu to the Bear.

Why do you think stories about fine.

Dining are so fascina?

[Pete Wells]

Well, you know, it really encapsulates so many things going on in our culture. There's a kind of The. The pursuit of. Of pleasure that is kind of always, you know, part of American culture, but. But taken to these real extremes, there's the class stratification that everyone feels and everyone senses, and a lot of people have this growing resentment about. I mean, the. You know, in the menu, they're all. All the customers are kind of the elite of society, and they're all awful people. And you're allowed to cheer when they die because they're so terrible. And these class issues that they're hard to talk about sometimes, and yet we all sense that they're there. And restaurants are a place where that all plays out.

[Radio Host Alison Stewart]

Pete, what is next for you? What are you going to do?

[Pete Wells]

I mean, I hope kind of the same thing without the calories. That's my dream. I don't know how that would. I don't know how that's going to work exactly, but my hope is to kind of write more cultural criticism, but still with a food focus and without the need to go out every single night.

[Radio Host Alison Stewart]

Hi, Pete. Over the course of his time as a New York critic, hasn't noise become a major hindrance to enjoying the evening? David, want to know what you think about that real quick?

[Pete Wells]

I mean, I have conflicting feelings about noise. I kind of think noise is great because.

[Radio Host Alison Stewart]

Oh, did we lose Pete? See, it's. Pete is about to start his new job, his new. His new team, right now. We lost.

[Pete Wells]

I'm still here.

[Radio Host Alison Stewart]

You're there. Okay, in 20 seconds, what's next for the next critic? What advice would you give them?

[Pete Wells]

Oh, I mean, try to make the job bite size. You know, don't feel like you have to eat every single thing in New York because there is so much, and it just gets bigger every day, and you don't want to get bigger every day. So just be Careful, Pete.

[Radio Host Alison Stewart]

We're going to miss your restaurant reviews. We can't wait to see what you turn up, what you write next. Thank you so much for being with us and for all of your work.

[Pete Wells]

Thank you. Thank you. It's been nice to be back and I hope I'm still interesting in the future and we can talk again.

[Radio Host Alison Stewart]

And that is all of it for today. Before I go, I want to remind you about the People's Concert at Lincoln Center. It's our public song project. Our specialists as well as Nicole Zarett. Musical guest Jake Blunt will be there as well. I'm Alison Stewart. I appreciate you listening. I appreciate you. Hey. KU is going to be here tomorrow. Yeah, KU be tomorrow. I'll see you next time.

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[Pete Wells]

All right, unc.

[Radio Host Alison Stewart]

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