William Harris (3:38)

Thank you very much. Thank you for having me today.

Kusha Navadar (3:40)

It's wonderful to have you here. And listeners, we can take your calls about the FDR Presidential Library or about presidential libraries in general. Give us a call at 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692. You can call, text us if you've got a question about President FDR in particular. We'll see if our guest, Bill Harris, director of the FDR Library and Museum, can answer it. Or if you have questions about the tradition of presidential libraries, we can take those calls as well. Or if you have visited the Presidential Library and Museum and you want to shout out some things that you loved from your visit, that number again is 212-433-WNYC. Okay. So, Bill, presidential libraries weren't really a thing until FDR. Right? Let's listen to a news clip from FDR's dedication of the library in 1941.

FDR News Clip Announcer (4:32)

A library built by popular subscription to house the archives, papers and mementos of the Franklin D. Roosevelt era is dedicated to the nation by the president himself. And this latest addition to the Archives of America is dedicated at a moment when government of the people by themselves is being attacked by everywhere. It is therefore proof, if any proof is needed, that our confidence in the future of democracy has not diminished in this nation and will not diminish.

Kusha Navadar (5:15)

Bill, what do we know about why FDR decided to preserve his library for his home and the public?

William Harris (5:21)

Well, there are multiple reasons. I would say FDR was a collector himself. He collected rare books. We have 22,000 of volumes of his books alone. His administration generated millions of pages. We have 17 million pages of his documents. And he loved naval history and Ships, models. So there were multiple things going. But he also recognized that his administration was fundamentally changing America. And so to have these materials available for research, to have them a public trust, I think he saw that and saw it as something important. So the library can be viewed on one level as sort of a place that one man viewed as his organization, or it can be viewed the way it ultimately became. And what he did, which was to give it to the American people and all the materials too.

Kusha Navadar (6:15)

Wow. Did he set any precedents for, like, establishing presidential libraries in general?

William Harris (6:20)

He did. He shifted the entire paradigm of public ownership of presidential materials prior to that time, except for of materials that had been bought by the Library of Congress long after administrations. The materials were either lost or maybe donated or stayed within the family. That's not the case with fdr.

Kusha Navadar (6:38)

Wow. Did FDR leave any guidelines behind for what sorts of things could be displayed or what should not be revealed to the public?

William Harris (6:48)

Not really. He died in office. Died before he could work in his library. Work really within the papers, within his library. He worked in the library while president, but he was doing his presidential duties. That said, he recognized that there would be materials that are sensitive and related to personal privacy that would obviously not need to be opened until there was an appropriate time. Did he realize probably that it would become the kind of archival and museum institution it has? I'm not sure he did, but I don't know that that would have concerned him so much. He liked to take chances and see how things unfold.

Kusha Navadar (7:23)

And while he was alive, he said, listen, after, whenever my presidency ends, this is what I want to be done with the library. So he knew that while he was living. What do people think of that decision at the time? It's kind of bold, isn't it?

William Harris (7:35)

Well, it's very bold. And it was easily criticized if one thinks about it. And it was administration, people outside of the administration, critics viewed it as a one man ego show, as a boondoggle. They were rather shortsighted, I would say, because the archivist of the United States, the archives was a new institution. He wanted us to be a part of the archives. And there was a mixture of historians who did support this and who saw that there was a value of these materials being part of the public trust. And just keep that in mind. That had never happened, that a president that was his personal property that he donated, which could have been worth many millions of dollars. He gave all of that to the American people.

Kusha Navadar (8:21)

And then immediately after that, every other president since just kind of fell in. Not fell in line but wanted to match that generosity, I think.

William Harris (8:30)

Yes. And I think there are a lot of other complicated reasons. Mostly I would say in addition to wanting to continue the story and providing these materials for study. But it was also think about the quantities of material and the complexities of them. Especially after the war, there would have been no way they could manage them. It made sense for them to go to the National Archives listeners.

Kusha Navadar (8:56)

We are talking with William Harris, director of the FDR Presidential Library and Museum. Great place to go this weekend if you're looking for a day trip just outside of the city. We're also taking your calls about the FDR Presidential Library or about presidential libraries in general. Give us a call. Send us a text at 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692. If you've got a question about President FDR in particular, we can see if William Har, as director of the FDR Presidential Library Museum, can answer it. Or if you have questions about the tradition of presidential libraries, we can take those calls as well. I would love to hear from somebody who has visited the FDR Presidential Library to just say how it was for them visiting or any presidential library in general. Give us a call. Send us a text. We're at 212-433-9692. We actually just got a text here. Shout out to the Richard Nixon Library and Museum in Yorba Linda, California. I remember visiting it when I used to go to school. It gives you a lot of perspective of the man over and above just the Watergate scandal, which is still what most people associate him with. Thank you so much for that text. And yeah, go ahead.

William Harris (10:08)

Helped bring that library, when it was a private institution, into the National Archives. You did? I did. I was one of the team who did that on behalf of the National Archives during my Washington years. The collection's fascinating. Nixon is, in fact, a fascinating man. And understanding him as a person, I think, is so important to the extent whenever in terms of the choices he made in life and what his achievements and his failures were, you were involved.

Kusha Navadar (10:34)

In the establishment of a bunch of libraries like Bill Clinton's library, George W. Bush's library. Right.

William Harris (10:39)

George H.W. bush.

Kusha Navadar (10:40)

George H.W.

William Harris (10:40)

Bush, yeah.

Kusha Navadar (10:41)

Enter the what do you think most presidents are looking to achieve when they're creating their library?

William Harris (10:46)

Well, you know, it's, I think, a mixed set of purposes. First of all, to preserve the materials and to make them available. That is at the core of it. And the museum, of course, to help understand what their roles are and how they interacted with their contemporary era. But these institutions evolve over time. You know, when there's a living president and family and supporters, that's going to be much more sensitive topics on a personal level. So that, you know, the Roosevelt Library now we can address things. The family, you know, the grandchildren, they're very supportive, and we do tell those complex stories. But there's an evolution that occurs over time in terms of how they tell a story.

Kusha Navadar (11:35)

What do you think is one key to making a presidential library great in your experience?

William Harris (11:41)

To the extent the president can leave his imprint on it, I think that that's very special over time. But also to the extent that they trust, frankly, history to sort itself out, that those stories will be told, that historians will study it from every direction, whether one tries to influence it initially or not, and to just have some faith in the American people in that regard. In that regard.

Kusha Navadar (12:11)

Let's go to some callers. We got Susan in Highland Park. Hey, Susan, welcome to the show.

Susan (Caller) (12:17)

Thanks for taking my call. I just want to say that I visited the museum, and the place that I love the most is a replica of a kitchen, and there's a radio. And you can sit at the kitchen table and listen to FDR explain, I believe it's Social Security. And he says, well, it's been accused of being socialism. Let me explain to you why it's good, why it's bad. And the experience of hearing his voice through the radio at this table and, and hearing his vocabulary, the way he speaks at such a high level, it's a real contrast to where we are. And I deeply appreciated that moment.

Kusha Navadar (12:58)

We deeply appreciate you giving us that call and telling us about that experience, sitting at the kitchen table and listening to the radio. FDR was the first to kind of really dive into radio, right?

William Harris (13:09)

Well, it's true to the extent that he absolutely did. Compared to Herbert Hoover, he recognized that the medium was so powerful, as did Eleanor Roosevelt. They were remarkably engaged in media and in a direct and personal way through that media that wasn't possible before. So I love to hear that, because in his very first Fireside Chat, the very first time, other than his inaugural, that he addressed American people in the living room, he said, my friends, I am here tonight to talk with you. He's speaking with them as president, explaining complicated things. And it touched people. It was new, it was meaningful.

Kusha Navadar (13:53)

Susan, first of all, thank you so much for that shout out, that endorsement of the museum. Let's go to Stephanie in Piermont New York. Oh, I think we just lost Stephanie. I think she just hung up the phone. Stephanie, if you want to call us back, we'll get you. Let's go to Matthew in Staten Island, New York. Hey, Matthew, welcome to the show.

Matthew (Caller) (14:09)

Thank you. Thank you so much for taking my call.

Kusha Navadar (14:11)

Sure.

Matthew (Caller) (14:12)

The one thing, you know, I've been to the FDR National Historic Site many times, and the one thing that I think your viewers should hear is how stunning the property and the views are and the fact that it's nestled right there at the sort of the top of the Hudson Valley. And not just the history that's there, but the property itself is absolutely breathtaking.

Kusha Navadar (14:34)

Wonderful. Matthew, thank you so much for that call. The property is also part of their home, is that right?

William Harris (14:40)

That's right. It's interconnected. And your caller is absolutely right. It is a beautiful location. President Roosevelt's estate, the Roosevelt estate was 1300 acres along the river and back to the east. And the library opened while he was president. But then when he died, the land around it in his home and the place that he's buried as well became part of the National Park Service, which operate that. So they operate the home and the National Archives, the library. But the area is so beautiful. And what's special about it, too, is that he was a part of that place and the Hudson Valley. He treasured it. He considered himself inseparable from it. And he went back there to recharge, and he saw himself there at the end of his administration working. But the natural beauty is, you know, I'm lucky. My partner works here in the city and I'll walk out and send a picture from the Hudson Valley. He'll send a picture off whatever of a subway Steve floors up here.

McDonald's Customer (15:44)

Yeah.

William Harris (15:44)

And I think I got a pretty good deal up there.

Kusha Navadar (15:47)

It's a perk of the job, for sure. Living in history, living in nature. We got a text here. It's interesting. It says their exhibit on fdr, the New Deal and civil rights, was so well done. It did a great job highlighting the complexity of this important and often overlooked issue. Can you talk a little bit about that, Bill?

William Harris (16:03)

Absolutely. What we wanted to do with that exhibit, and we had a committee of scholars who advised us because we're not, you know, experts on Amazon, everything. And what we wanted to do was shift the focus, shift the narrative to have that history not be solely from the perspective of the Roosevelts, Franklin and Eleanor Roosevelt, but to have it be centered around the voices and the people who were fighting and challenging the system and fighting for their place within it. That, and that makes the collection exciting all over again because you begin to look at these stories not just from the sort of top down, the power down, but from the people who are really working and holding their leaders accountable. These are tough stories, sometimes very tough. But people are complex, leaders are complex, and their evolution, their evolution over time, where they start and what they become really helps us understand the decisions they make.

Kusha Navadar (17:10)

Right. Puts everything into context of the time that they were living before we run out of time. Let's go to some more callers. We've got Kristen in Hoboken, New Jersey. Kristin. Hey, welcome to the show.

Susan (Caller) (17:22)

Hi. Thank you so much. I agree with what the other callers have said. I've been to the library a couple of times, and one of the things that was so impressive to me was and a good reminder was just how much history is covered from his time in office. And like you were just talking about, there's so many events and so many things that happen. And it's not just about the Roosevelts. There's a lot going on in the world and it's a lot to take in. And so well done, Kristin.

Kusha Navadar (17:57)

Yeah, thank you so much for that call. I love that point that you made about it's not just about the Roosevelts. It's about everything in context. I think Dan from Wayne, New Jersey, has a part of the museum, the library, that he really enjoyed as well in that respect. Right, Dan?

Matthew (Caller) (18:14)

Yes. We took a trip up there, so just prior to the documentary about the Roosevelts, and we saw the whole area of Eleanor's cottage. But one of the things that my wife and I were fascinated with, we saw Eleanor, excuse me, Madeline Albright's brooches, and they had them all displayed. And we actually, we spent probably more time in there and looking at all the brooches that she wore when she was meeting dignitaries when she was secretary of state. And it was just, we just found fascinating because it not directly related to obviously Franklin, but just that whole area was fascinating. And we found that just because we're expecting to see a lot of old stuff, but.

Kusha Navadar (19:02)

Right. But then you got to see brooches. That's so interesting. Dan, thanks so much. Are you going to say something, Bill?

William Harris (19:06)

Yes. We have a changing exhibit program so that it augments the permanent exhibit. The exhibit now Black American Civil Rights in the Roosevelts is an exhibit that's up through February for two years. So we do that. And the Madeleine Albright. So that was so popular. People feel that connection through Material objects or papers.

Kusha Navadar (19:27)

Let's talk about the black American civil rights and the Roosevelts. Exhibit. One of the biggest failures of FDR's presidency was his decision not to support a federal anti lynching bill, a bill that just passed through Congress in 2022. What do we know about why Roosevelt was unsupportive of the bill? What is in that exhibit?

William Harris (19:46)

The exhibit itself, as I was just saying, to contextualize, but also to shift and center the narrative around the people who were advocating for that. Walter White, A. Philip Randolph, Mayor McLeod Bethune, who are pushing and push and anti lynching legislation was at the center of some of their efforts. And it is a failure of the President not to support it. He's working in a complicated political environment. He needed the support of Southern Democrats who held most of the powerful committee positions and were in Congress to advance the broader New Deal program. So you can set a context, but sometimes I wonder, you've got a lot of political capital. Can you expend a little bit more of it? And I think that's the conversation and I think that that's the challenge that our elected officials face every day. But I like that we can have the conversation and we can talk about that. We can talk about the decisions and not. We're not running a campaign for FDR for another term in office. We're really trying to help people understand and make decisions of their own about participation in our democratic system. Yeah.

Kusha Navadar (20:59)

Let's go to John in Fanwood, New Jersey. Hey, John, welcome to the show.

Matthew (Caller) (21:04)

Thank you very much. I retired from the national archives back in 2005 across the street from your studio. And part of my job was to go collect records for the various presidential libraries. And I got to meet some very interesting people.

Kusha Navadar (21:23)

Wonderful, John, thank you so much for that call. Go ahead, Bill.

William Harris (21:26)

Well, you know, the family of the National Archives is small indeed. We're very small ages, actually. Very small. And so that's great to hear from someone who worked down here. Of course, I know this archive is down here and we do get to interact with a lot of amazing people. It is, you know, I'll say this, I'm going to name drop. We hosted fdr.

Kusha Navadar (21:45)

No, I'm sorry, go ahead.

William Harris (21:46)

Cardi B. Would you have expected that? Really? Yeah, exactly.

Kusha Navadar (21:49)

Wow.

William Harris (21:50)

I know, right? I can't do the Smiths that came before me, but I can do Cardi B. It is very surprising to people who we get to interact with sometime. And it's exciting because they're engaging in this history. It isn't just from the past. Right. It's right now. It's the future.

Kusha Navadar (22:07)

Yeah, absolutely. We've got a couple texts here that I want to read. One says, I visited annually as a school chaperone for several years. It's a great combination of indoor and outdoor. As you were saying, Bill? The grounds are beautiful and overlook the Hudson. The library has so much to offer. Any history buff. Kept the students very occupied. And here's a question for you. We got about a minute and a half left, but I find this interesting. Why are some presidents buried at their own presidential library rather than a cemetery?

William Harris (22:32)

I think it's a choice that they make. Roosevelt is buried on his estate. Truman's buried at his library, which was near his home. So it's an individual choice. It's the choice that Reagan's buried at his library. It is a personal choice. It shows the president's connection with these places, too, that they view themselves as, you know, that's part of them, part of their legacy.

Kusha Navadar (22:54)

And another text here, question for your guest. Who pays to fund presidential libraries and archives?

William Harris (22:59)

The federal government, through the National Archives funds the core mission activity. We generate revenue through ticket sales. FDR set it up that way, so that helps offset costs and then private dollars that are raised through the Roosevelt Institute, our nonprofit partner. So it's a complex funding mechanism, but it keeps me busy.

Kusha Navadar (23:19)

And we got just about 30 seconds left. So a quick question for you. What is one of your favorite pieces, if you had to pick or something you want to make sure people don't miss? You got about 30 seconds.

William Harris (23:30)

Well, I'm gonna say his office, just because I love that he worked in there. And it's down the hall from my office. And he picked out my paint color, which I dislike a lot. But that personal touch that he's in there, I could name 10 things. 15, 100.

Kusha Navadar (23:43)

Well, listeners, if you want to go check it out, please do. This weekend, it's the FDR Presidential Library. We've been joined by William Harris, the director of the FDR Presidential Library and Museum and the person who helped make many more presidential libraries besides that. Bill, thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate.

William Harris (24:01)

Thank you for having me.

Kusha Navadar (24:02)

Absolutely.

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William Harris (24:06)

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