'Pod Save America' Hosts on How to Be Involved in Politics Without Losing Your Mind

Summary

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Podcast Summary: “Pod Save America” Hosts on How to Be Involved in Politics Without Losing Your Mind

Podcast: All Of It (WNYC)
Episode Air Date: June 25, 2024
Host: Kousha Navadar (in for Alison Stewart)
Guests: Jon Favreau, John Lovett, Tommy Vietor (Crooked Media, “Pod Save America” hosts)

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Overview

This episode brings together Jon Favreau, John Lovett, and Tommy Vietor—the “Pod Save America” hosts and former Obama staffers—to discuss the current state of American democracy, reflect on the upcoming presidential debate, and introduce their new book, Democracy Or Else: How to Save America in 10 Easy Steps. The conversation leans into the challenges of political engagement in a cynical era and offers actionable advice for listeners seeking hope and agency amid today’s political tumult.

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Key Discussion Points

1. Anticipation for the Presidential Debate

[03:35–08:10]

• The hosts share their hopes and anxieties over the imminent Biden-Trump debate, debating each candidate’s possible strategies and vulnerabilities.

  • Jon Favreau: Emphasizes Biden must remind voters who Trump is and the consequences of a Trump re-election, while presenting his own achievements and vision. “For every incumbent president, you want to turn the race into a choice. The challenger wants it to be a referendum.” (04:01)
  • Tommy Vietor: Notes that Biden’s performance on age and energy—whether through demeanor or substance—will be crucial for voters. Expresses hope for debate decorum, referencing the chaos of 2020 debates. (05:01)
  • John Lovett: Jokes about wishing for “a good, clean fight” but also hopes Biden appears vigorous and that Trump’s response is to claim he’s artificially enhanced, thus reinforcing Trump’s extremity. (05:51)

• Discussion on whether moderators (Jake Tapper and Dana Bash) can maintain control and hold the candidates accountable.

  • Lovett humorously observes: “If there’s a person that has been training their whole life to moderate a debate…it is Jake Tapper. He has been training for this since the time he was a child. He was born for this.” (07:30)

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2. The Purpose and Tone of Democracy Or Else

[08:57–12:08]

• Why “10 Easy Steps”?

  • Lovett: “We wanted to write something that was reminding people about just how much agency they have. And that all it takes to find joy and purpose and mission…is to actually put aside all those—that negativity—and just get in the mix, get in the fight.” (09:12)
  • Recognizes people’s fatigue and cynicism in today’s political climate, urging action as the antidote.

• Why a Book?

  • Vietor: “The book is for a good cause. But we did want to make, you know, a one-stop shop for people who are like, ‘I want to get more involved in politics, but I have only a limited amount of time. What’s the best way for me to do that?’” (11:11)
  • Proceeds support Vote Save America, with practical and humorous content designed to encourage rather than overwhelm.

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3. Practical Advice for Political Engagement

Calls and Live Q&A: [12:08–33:20]

Staying Hopeful and Making a Difference

• Listener Q: “How doomed are we?”

  • Favreau: “I don’t know. That’s the honest answer…But it’s more in our hands than we think. Politics, and democracy, was never meant to be a spectator sport…Action itself will make you feel more hopeful and fulfilled.” (13:40)
  • Stresses that collective action, while not guaranteeing success, is both empowering and emotionally sustaining.

• The Issues Breakdown/Taco Cheese as Metaphor

  • Lovett (on prioritizing activism): “There are some levers that right now just don’t move. Don’t spend all your energy trying to turn a lever that’s not going to move. There are places where you can actually have an impact.” (16:17)

• How Can Blue State Residents Help Red States?

  • Vietor: “If you have some money…a financial contribution could go a long way, especially if it’s a down-ballot race…If you’re able to make phone calls or text bank into another state, that’s a great way to give your time…It’s all about the individual. It’s not an all or nothing proposition.” (17:57)

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On Challenging Conversations and Voter Apathy

• What about people who dislike both candidates and consider not voting?

  • Lovett: “Ultimately…yes, you are choosing between two candidates, but it’s not really about them…It’s about the stakes. If you vote for Joe Biden, a better future is possible. If you vote for Donald Trump, it just isn’t.” (26:09)
  • Encourages looking past personal enthusiasm to focus on high-stakes impacts: abortion rights, climate, governance, etc.

• Retrospective on 2016:

  • Favreau: “If the people in 2016 who didn’t feel as hopeful about Hillary Clinton…had just decided to vote…there would be a Supreme Court that was actually a progressive majority on the Supreme Court, there would be no abortion bans.” (29:00)
  • Emphasizes the very real, tangible consequences of opting out.

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Audience-Sharing Positive Activism

• Listener Testimonials:
  • Nora in North Salem: Champions “Knock for Democracy,” a friendly, local activism group for political volunteering. (12:14)
  • David in Park Slope: Promotes “Vote Vets,” an org fighting Trump’s disrespect of veterans and supporting key races. (30:19)
  • Ann in Staten Island: Launches “Seniors with Common Concerns.” Affirms elder agency: “We are not invisible. We have very informed ideas and we have life experience and wisdom.” (31:31)
    • Lovett: “Anybody organizing in Staten Island, that’s the place we need people, we need seniors to figure out how to turn that red little blotch blue…” (32:56)

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4. Specific Policy and Process Insights

• Gerrymandering and Legislative Outlook:

  • Favreau: “If Joe Biden wins…the John Lewis Voting Rights Act…would end partisan gerrymandering…Gallego has said he would support getting rid of the filibuster for that…[so] if we do well in the Senate, do well in the House…one of the first bills…will be the John Lewis Voting Rights Act.” (23:58)

• Foreign Policy’s Role in 2024:

  • Vietor: “Trump…has taken this more of an isolationist position, which cuts across parties…What Joe Biden is going to talk about is fighting for the international order…trying to continue support for Ukraine.” (22:56)

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Notable Quotes

• “Action itself will make you feel more hopeful and fulfilled.”
  — Jon Favreau, (13:40)

• “If you vote for Joe Biden, a better future is possible. If you vote for Donald Trump, it just isn’t.”
  — John Lovett, (26:09)

• “Sometimes you’re pulling a lever like a graveyard shift nurse, putting on gloves, just trying to get through the shift.”
  — John Lovett, (28:58)

• “One in three women live in states with abortion bans…If the people in 2016…had just decided to vote for Hillary Clinton, then none of that would be happening right now.”
  — Jon Favreau, (29:00)

• “Anybody organizing in Staten Island, that’s the place we need people…we need seniors to figure out how to turn that red little blotch blue.”
  — John Lovett, (32:56)

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Resources Mentioned

• Democracy Or Else: How to Save America in 10 Easy Steps – All proceeds support Vote Save America.
• Vote Save America: votesaveamerica.com – Find volunteer and donation opportunities.
• Knock for Democracy – Activist group for volunteers in New York.
• Vote Vets – Supports pro-veteran candidates and fights Trump-era military disrespect.

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Description | Timestamp | |---------|-------------|-----------| | Opening Debate Analysis | Debate preview, expectations for Biden/Trump | 03:35–08:10 | | Book Introduction | Purpose, tone, why “easy steps” | 08:57–12:08 | | Staying Hopeful & Active | How not to lose your mind, agency advice | 13:40–15:41 | | Cheese as Democracy Metaphor | Political levers, understanding process | 16:05–17:41 | | Blue State in Red State | Ways to participate across state lines | 17:57–18:45 | | Voter Apathy Debate | Convincing the uninspired to vote | 26:06–28:58 | | Effect of 2016 Apathetic Voting | Direct consequences of sitting out | 29:00–30:13 | | Foreign Policy in 2024 | Potential campaign issues | 22:56–23:51 | | Gerrymandering Reform Outlook | How national redistricting could change | 23:58–25:36 | | Audience Activism | Stories and new orgs from listeners | 12:14, 30:19, 31:31 (Ann, David, Nora) | | Final Advice & Wrap | Directing listeners toward action | 32:41–33:20 |

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Tone & Style

The conversation is candid, funny, occasionally irreverent, but always earnest in its belief that grassroots involvement matters. The hosts balance a sober view of current challenges with encouragement, humor, and practical advice, echoing the tone of their podcast and their new book.

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Conclusion

This episode delivers a hopeful message: while American democracy faces real threats, ordinary citizens possess more power than they may believe. With their characteristic humor and political insight, Favreau, Lovett, and Vietor insist that participation—not perfection or enthusiasm—is what counts most. Whether through phone-banking, organizing, or simply voting, every action, no matter how small, compounds into meaningful change.

Transcript

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[Jon Favreau]

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[Kousha Navadar]

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[Kousha Navadar]

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[John Lovett]

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[John Lovett]

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[Jon Favreau]

Listener supported WNYC Studios.

[Kousha Navadar]

This is all of it. I'm Kousha Navadar in for Alison Stewart. And now we'll turn to some politics. Maybe you heard, but today is primary day in New York. If you haven't voted early, check out your party registration and polling [e-mail] york.gov and go vote. But be sure to first go and read about the choices on your [e-mail] polls are open until 9pm by the way. Plus, on Thursday, we'll have the first presidential debate of the 2024 election election season between President Biden and former President Trump. Debates, of course, being a critical element of democracy, where two people have a healthy exchange of ideas in an effort to use logic and reason to convince people that you are more right than your opponent. We'll see how much logic and reason we get at Thursday's debate. But it's been such a big week in politics that right now we're going to talk about American democracy. What's wrong with it, according to three Obama staffers and what they say is the best way to fix it. I'm talking about the guys from crooked media, Jon Favreau, John Lovett and Tommy Vitor. They just released a new book called Democracy Or Else how to save America in 10 easy steps. And they're here in the studio right across from me to talk about it. John. John Tommy, welcome to all of it.

[Jon Favreau]

Thanks for having us.

[Kousha Navadar]

Absolutely. It's such a pleasure to have you here. And listeners, we want you in the conversation, too. We're here to take your calls for the crooked media guys about saving Democracy, hit us up. 212-433-9692. That's 212-433. WNY particularly love to hear from people who are engaged with politics, whether it's for work or maybe you volunteer on campaigns or you think strategically about your financial contributions to political campaigns. What questions do you have for these self described Obama Bros who have been through every level of the political process?

[John Lovett]

Not self described. Others I was described by others.

[Kousha Navadar]

I was being generous. That is also true. If then so maybe you've got advice that you want to give to listeners. If you have questions, give us a call. 212-443-39692. Okay, so before we get into the book, I wonder if we can get your thoughts about the upcoming debate this Thursday from each of you. Jon, maybe we can start from you. Favreau, what are you looking for from each of the candidates to kind of help us understand what the final four months of this race are going to look like?

[Jon Favreau]

I mean, like most Americans, I'm a little bit terrified of watching this debate. But I think if you're President Biden, you want to remind people of who Donald Trump is, what he's proposing for the next four years, what Joe Biden has done over the last four years and what he will do over the next four years. And so for every incumbent president, you want to turn the race into a choice. The challenger wants it to be a referendum. And that's no different this time around. And so I think that in every answer, Biden will want to drive the choice. And I think their theme, and they've been telegraphing this for a while now, and it's in their new ad that they released today, is that Donald Trump only cares about himself. And Joe Biden has been working hard for the American people. So I think that if he could fit every answer within that frame, it'll be and if he's energetic and peppy and punchy, then it'll be a win for Biden.

[Kousha Navadar]

Tommy, what do you think? Is that the right frame to take? Is that how you're thinking about it?

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, I am. I mean, first of all, I hope that they're forcing Donald Trump to take all kinds of tests for infectious diseases before this debate because last time he was spitting Covid on his. On his opponent.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Tommy Vitor]

I mean, I think Biden has to answer some threshold questions about his age. And whether that is done via how you look or your demeanor and sort of your energy level or what you say is to be determined. But I think that's what voters are looking for. And then I think Donald Trump's advisers are praying that he will be relatively reserved. If you guys remember, I watched the last, the first debate from 2020 on the plane out here, and it's just a disaster. It's a spitting, angry, crosstalk mess. And they're hoping that Donald Trump doesn't show up and that one shows up who seems like he has matured and doesn't remind people of all the things that they frankly hated about him four years ago.

[John Lovett]

Yeah.

[Kousha Navadar]

John Lovett, what do you think?

[John Lovett]

I'm just looking for a good, clean fight. Look, I. My hope. I think a debate where Donald Trump comes out of it saying Joe Biden's on drugs is a good debate. Yeah, that's what I want. Because I hope he is. Honestly, I hope they hit him with whatever they gotta hit him with and he goes out there like the State of the Union, Joe Biden. And then the story of the debate is Donald Trump seems extreme and he calls it fake and he calls it rigged.

[Jon Favreau]

And then he should stay on those drugs the rest of the campaign.

[John Lovett]

Which drugs? I don't know what they are.

[Jon Favreau]

I don't know.

[John Lovett]

And they just, all they need to do is they just need to last through November. Just get him to wherever you need to get him? Yeah, that's what I feel about it.

[Kousha Navadar]

Do you feel like there's going to be any signals that we'll be able to see during this debate to give us a sense of what kind of fight it's gonna be for the rest of the time. Cause we got four months left, right?

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, I think we'll know fairly early because. Well, for both candidates. Right. Like, if Trump goes out there and is trying to listen to his advisors and be somewhat disciplined and subdued, like, you know, you give that five, 10 minutes and then what happens? And, and, you know, same thing with Biden, honestly. Right. Like, is, is Trump. Will Trump be able to get under his skin? And I'm sure in that. I think I remember in that 2020 debate, you know, Biden got a little annoyed.

[Tommy Vitor]

Oh, yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

At times.

[Tommy Vitor]

Just shut up, man.

[Jon Favreau]

Right. And so can he get Biden flustered. And so it'll be interesting just to see if both of them can sort of maintain composure. But if they start, if the yelling starts within, like, five minutes, that's, that's what the debate's going to be like. And then also, like, can Jake and Dana sort of control the whole thing? And will muting the mics be enough? And will Trump start picking fights with the moderators? Right. Like, there's a whole. Yeah, we haven't even talked about the moderators.

[Tommy Vitor]

Jake could just arm wrestle Trump at some point.

[John Lovett]

Like, I just, I think that if there's a person that's been training their whole life to moderate a debate with very carefully enforced rules, it is Jake Tapper.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[John Lovett]

He has been training from this since the time he was a child. He was born for this. I'm excited. I'm, I'm excited to see that power in his eyes. Yeah, I really am.

[Jon Favreau]

Trump.

[Tommy Vitor]

People are all just whining and whining about Jake. Dana trying to, like, kind of preemptively spin the moderators being hard on him. The truth is, Jake was a huge pain to every administration, Republican and Democrat. I would get into arguments with Jake when I was a White House spokesman that were so nasty that his wife would get looped in to calm us both down. Like, he's a tough journalist who doesn't take up with any bs. So, yeah, we'll see how it goes.

[Kousha Navadar]

Listeners, we're talking to the guys behind crooked media, Pod Save America. We're here to take your calls. Maybe you've got advice yourself about not getting discouraged in this political climate. Staying engaged, continuing to believe that democracy can be saved. Give us a call. We're at 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC. You can text us at that number as well. If you're on social, if you're on X, if you're on Instagram, hit us up. We're all of it. Wnyc. Do you have a question for John Lovett about the latest season of Survivor? Give us a call, 212-439-692. I bet that NDA is longer than the transcription of a filibuster. I bet that's long.

[John Lovett]

I'm not sure. Wouldn't. Wouldn't want to comment.

[Kousha Navadar]

Give us a call. We're at 212-433-WNYC. Okay, let's talk about the book a little bit. Democracy Or Else how to save America in 10 easy steps. John Lovett. Why that framework. Why 10 easy steps?

[John Lovett]

Oh, because, you know, it's 2024 and you got a lot of people if you don't want to get anything done. No, well, look, we, we knew that this would be, we started writing this. Who knows what the future holds, right? Who knows what the candidates will be, who knows what the political environment will be? But regardless, we knew this would be a pessimistic and cynical time. And people have been, especially people who have been paying attention, feel, I think, frustrated by the sense in which they were doing what they were supposed to be doing, right? They got together and maybe if they were shocked by Donald Trump winning, they were able to get together and have wins in 2018 and elect Joe Biden in 2018. And there's this feeling of like, well, a feeling, I think kind of exhaustion from all that. And we wanted to write something that was reminding people about just how much agency they have. And that all it takes to find joy and purpose and mission and satisfaction in being involved in politics, even in a broken system, even in a cynical time, is to actually put aside all those that negativity and just get in the mix, get in the fight. Not just because it's good for the world, and it is very good for the world, but it's good for you. Like, I think that, like, we have been, we have been. I just, just from a fire hose, drinking political news non stop, maybe our whole adult lives. And I don't think it's, you know, I think our brains are pretty, pretty screwed up because of it. But nothing I think is more gratifying and nothing I think makes it easier to keep doing that than going and knocking on doors, meeting the people that are actually on the ground, doing the things that actually have an impact on people's lives. And the more people who do that, the less reason to be cynical we'll have.

[Kousha Navadar]

Yeah. And so is this idea of approachability, like agency giving people a way to go, 10 easy steps. It makes sense. And I gotta ask Tommy, why a book? Because I'm looking at you, three podcasts, you know, speechwriters, what was it about a book that felt like the right medium to give this message?

[Tommy Vitor]

Books are the future. Paper is the future. Internet. What is that? No, I mean, look, one thing for listeners to know is all the proceeds from this book are going to go to an organization we created called Vote Save America, which is helping progressive candidates and causes. And so it's all for, the book is for a good cause. But we did want to make, you know, a one Stop shop for people who are like, I want to get more involved in politics, but I have only a limited amount of time. What's the best way for me to do that? And so we walk you through this sort of ladder of things you can do from getting good information to voting to donating. I think the book ends with you as the reader as a disgraced one term president. So we want to help you understand how you get involved, all the different steps. But also like we were lucky to come up in the Obama administration, politics felt more hopeful and inspiring than it has felt like a slog the last eight years or so. And we wanted to remind people that it can be fun. And so the book is silly and funny. There's illustrations, the font is big. We won't bum you out, we promise.

[Kousha Navadar]

So we are ready to take some calls. Let's go to Nora in North Salem, New York. Nora, welcome to the show.

[Caller]

Hey. I love the spirit of fun activism and that's what I was calling about. I was a field organizer in 2016 on the Clinton campaign and devastated by the loss. And I was looking for a way to keep volunteering that felt really hopeful and found this organization called Knock for Democracy, which is local, based out of Brooklyn and just a really friendly environment. Whether you're seasoned or you've never even considered volunteering before, they create like warm, accessible ways for you to join phone banks and even go knock on doors. So Plug for Knock for Democracy for anyone who's interested in getting out there and volunteering in a fun way.

[Kousha Navadar]

Nora, thanks so much for that call. We appreciate that. We appreciate that Plug and I hope that it's making you feel more enlivened about about democracy. Folks, if you're ready to give us a question for the crooked media guys or to talk about how democracy is showing up in your life right now in sense of what you're doing, Give us a call, send us a text. We're at 212-433-9692. I have a text. Jon Favreau, I want to send this one to you. It says, hi guys, I love your candor, especially in politics because I see too much toxic positivity. Quick question. How doomed are we?

[Jon Favreau]

I don't know. I. That's the honest answer, right? But I do think, as the guys were saying too, it's more in our hands than we think. And politics, and more importantly, democracy was never meant to be sort of a spectator sport and I think that's what it's become, especially national politics. And so we watch and we look for the latest polls and what's going to happen at the debate. And these are all things that we can't control. We can't control how Joe Biden does, we can't control what Donald Trump does, we can't control what the Democratic Party does, but we can control how we're involved. And I think that what we have learned over the years of doing Pod Save America and why we wanted to get some of this down in this book Democracy or else, is that when you do actually go out and get involved, like, things still might not turn out okay. Right. This is not a, I mean, even though we say how to save America, this is not a tongue in cheek. It's not a promise that everything's gonna be okay. But if you are, if you are active and involved and doing your best, then not only do we have a better chance of being okay, but that action itself will make you feel more hopeful and it'll make you feel more fulfilled. And I think, you know, I mean, we've all been in politics for a very long time now, and I think that some of the best friends I have in life came from the times I had in politics. And, you know, we just, we were doing an interview yesterday and we saw David Axelrod, who was our old, our boss in the White House, and it like, transported us back already, like 10 years, you know, more now, I guess. But it's like you, you know, you, you, you get back into conversations with people that you, you worked with for, for years in the trenches. And like, those are relationships you're going to have for life. And the same is true for activists and organizers and volunteers and, and people who are out in the field. And, you know, I just think it's a, it's good for the soul to actually get out there and get involved. And it is the best chance we have to not be doomed. Are we, are we doomed? Who knows? But, like, this is, there's a, there's an impact that all of us can have.

[Kousha Navadar]

Well, you know, one part of the book that I found helpful was actually pretty close to the beginning. When you go through and kind of list out key issues and rate them on how easy they are to fix, including, like, cheese placement on tacos, which is part of democracy. Right. It's all a metaphor. You go through. You kind of give a scale of very hard to quite possible. What do you hope readers do with that analysis, John? I'll send that to you.

[John Lovett]

So, first of all, Taco Bell does put the cheese on the meat at the wrong time. The cheese should go directly on the meat, not after the lettuce and tomato. It's stupid. It doesn't melt. It should melt. It could be put on earlier. It costs them nothing. Just move the little bucket closer to the meat.

[Kousha Navadar]

Absolutely.

[John Lovett]

So that's just the first thing. And I think that's important. Thank you for saying. To say. I think people aren't saying it. It should be said now. I'm remembering the question. Oh, yeah. So I think that there are a lot of people who are very cynical about the political process and they're also not paying too close attention to it. And that's a vicious circle. Right. Things seem broken. I don't pay attention. I don't totally understand why they're broken. And so because you view the system as being screwed up, you don't exactly see the forest for the. You don't see the trees for the forest. And the fact that, hey, here are the people that are standing in the way. Here are the people that are trying to. To solve it. And for people reading this book, you can be armed with the knowledge of, hey, like, if. If Joe Biden is trying to cancel student debt, but it's being stymied by the Supreme Court, these are the steps and how difficult it would be to change the Supreme Court. This is what he can do with executive power. This is what it takes to get something through Congress. This is what it takes to change the courts. This is what you can do at the local level. And that's a very. I think it's a. It's just a reminder that, like, that the more you understand the process, the more you pay attention, the better sense you have of the places where you actually know that there's a lever that you can turn, right? Like, there are some levers that right now that they just don't move. Don't spend all your energy trying to turn a lever that's not going to move. There are places where you can actually have an impact. There's places where we collectively can have an impact.

[Kousha Navadar]

It's interesting because we just got a text here as well that has a very straightforward question that speaks to that. It says, how can a blue state resident make a difference in a red state? A lot of what you say in this book touches on that. Tommy, what do you think? What would you say to that texter?

[Tommy Vitor]

It's a great question. It depends on how much time you have, how many resources you have. If you have some money that you feel like you could give to candidates A financial contribution could go a long way, especially if it's a down ballot race where money is really important for these candidates. If you're able to make phone calls or text bank into another state, that's a great way to give your time. If you're able to physically go to that state, that's even better. Like, I mean, a lot of New Yorkers, maybe you could get down to Pennsylvania, knock on doors for one weekend a month, two, like whatever you can, whatever you can give. So it's all about the individual. It's not an all or nothing proposition. Everything you do at the margins will matter because when you add that all up at scale, that's when you have, you know, you're hitting, knocking on millions of doors or giving a million dollars or whatever it might be.

[Kousha Navadar]

Yeah. Before we go to break, I want to go to one more caller. This is Ken in Park Slope. Hey, Ken, welcome to the show.

[Caller]

Hey, thank you. Yeah, I just wanted to know whether they thought that you guys thought that the, whether Tapper would actually ask Trump point blank whether who is the president? I mean, you know, will, will, will they ask Trump whether he's actually acknowledged the fact that, that Biden has been president for the last four years?

[Tommy Vitor]

Ooh, good question.

[Kousha Navadar]

Yeah, thanks, Ken. Yeah, go ahead.

[Jon Favreau]

For sure.

[John Lovett]

Yeah. I mean, whatever the exact question is, he's definitely going to, I'm sure, push Trump on acknowledging who won the previous election and whether or not he'll acknowledge this election if and when he loses.

[Jon Favreau]

I know. I think that sort of the, we haven't been thinking enough for this debate that there are so many. Donald Trump has not sat down with a non right wing interviewer in quite some time, especially for sustained questioning. And there are a lot of pretty basic Trump questions that could really trip him up. And I think around January 6, around the 2020 election and his attempt to overturn.

[Tommy Vitor]

How does a bill become a law?

[Jon Favreau]

Well, there's that too. Yeah. But there's this really fertile ground. I think what Jake and Dana are probably trying to figure out is how much can they then follow up on that? Because you ask, okay, who won the 2020 election? And he'll say, I did. Or he'll say, you know, whatever. And then they'll say, well, actually, you know, you filed lawsuits and you lost all the court cases and whatever else. And then he just is off to there. He says, then, like, do you keep following up? I guess then you leave it to Biden to finish the job there. But yeah, there's a, it's gonna be wild.

[Kousha Navadar]

Yeah. Well, we're gonna take a quick break. We love getting these calls. When we come back, we'll talk more with Jon Favreau, Jon Lovett and Tommy Vitor behind pod, Save America and Crooked media. And we'll keep taking your calls. 212-433-9692. Stick around, we'll be right back. This is all of it on wnyc. I'm Kushan Avadar and we are talking to Jon Favreau, Jon Lovett and Tommy Vitor.

[John Lovett]

I was just warned. I know, we're, I'm sorry to interrupt. I was just. We're talking about democracy, cursing and the fines that this, this inflation were live. And I, and I would. Now it's in my head.

[Jon Favreau]

Let me tell you, if Trump wins, the FCC is no longer going to be independent. Oh, yeah. Just like every agency. So, you know, he could change that up or he could just, he could. Heftier fines for public radio and less so for.

[Kousha Navadar]

There's a lot of stakes.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, there's a lot at stake. I'm just bringing it back to democracy. Yeah, bring it back to democracy.

[John Lovett]

That's why we're here.

[Tommy Vitor]

This will make a nice state run media studio.

[John Lovett]

This is great. I think Boris Epshine will feel very comfortable in here.

[Kousha Navadar]

Well, you know, but for now, we are driven by listeners and for listeners, much like many people that are in this room right now with their own efforts. And we are taking texts from you and calls from you. If you wanna talk to the folks behind crooked media, behind POD Save America, their new book is called Democracy or How to save America in 10 easy steps. John Lovett, you tried to step on me plugging your book, but I will come back to it for you.

[Jon Favreau]

Not the first time he's done that, second time today.

[Kousha Navadar]

So if you have a call or a question or if you want to let us know how you are engaging in democracy in this presidential election or just in your life, give us a call, send us a text. We're at 212-433-9692. Mr. Lovett, there is a text for you here. It's a question from a friend of the pod particularly. Oh, no, sorry, Tommy, this one's for you, particularly for Tommy. Is there a way to make foreign policy positive in this campaign? What indicators are you watching in that area? And then this is the part for favs and love it. So we'll take one. After active in fighting gerrymandering in Pennsylvania where the state constitution gives us a lever, can we win that fight on the national level, are we fighting it the right way? So let's break that up into two, Tommy, for you. First, foreign policy in this election. Could it be positive? What would it take?

[Tommy Vitor]

I mean, I think the thing that's challenging with Trump is he kind of broke from the traditional Republican neoconservative outlook on foreign policy and was, you know, in the campaign, he said that he thought the Iraq war was a disaster and that he never supported it. Of course, there's footage of him in at the time saying he supported the Iraq war. But he has, you know, taken this more of an isolationist position, which cuts across parties, which I think is especially popular with younger voters. So it's sort of a mixed bag. How to make it positive or negative, I'm not sure. I think what Joe Biden is going to talk about is fighting for the international order, fighting for international organizations like NATO, trying to continue support for Ukraine as a they fight against the Russian invasion. So I imagine those will be the issues at the forefront. I suspect the moderators will talk about Gaza. I mean, I think you're sort of talking about managing crises, though, more than almost anything else.

[Kousha Navadar]

Yeah. And let's move to the gerrymandering part of it. And John Favreau, I want to point this to you. Give us the state. Like, what would it take to win that fight?

[Jon Favreau]

So the John Lewis Voting Rights act was introduced a couple years ago, and it was blocked in the Senate because Democrats did not have the votes to eliminate the filibuster for that because of Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema this time around, if Joe Biden wins the presidency again, and if Ruben Gallego replaces Kyrsten Sinema and every other Democrat that's up in the Senate wins reelection and we have the House. I imagine one of the first bills that will be introduced after the bill that would restore Roe v. Wade as a constitutional protection will be the John Lewis Voting Rights Act. And in that bill would end partisan gerrymandering. And Gallego has said that he would support getting rid of the filibuster for that. And every Senate Democrat is on the record saying that both for the Roe protections and for Voting Rights act, they would in favor of getting rid of the filibuster for that. So in that scenario, if we do well in the Senate, do well in the House. If we have the trifecta, compare that.

[Kousha Navadar]

To the difficulty of getting Taco Bell to change the way in which they put cheese on.

[John Lovett]

There's gotta be a reason Taco Bell won't do it. There's gotta be some reason.

[Jon Favreau]

It's tricky. But I think that as someone who has been complaining about the filibuster now for years, we are so much closer than I ever thought we'd be. Like we were in the Obama administration and it wasn't even a thought that we could get rid of the filibuster and do that. And now we've made a lot of progress with Democrats and, you know, we came up short with Manchin and Sinema, but, you know, everyone else is pretty much on board.

[John Lovett]

Yeah.

[Kousha Navadar]

Let's go to some calls. We've got Shelley in Westport, Connecticut. Hey, Shelley, welcome to the show.

[Caller]

Thank you. And I'd like to ask our wonderful guests, how would they address people who say that neither candidate is worth their vote? So they're not going to vote at all because neither candidate is really somebody they can support? How do we help them understand that these are the choices you need to vote for? Who's gonna keep America strong in the best sense of.

[Kousha Navadar]

Yeah. Shelley, thanks so much for that question. It's a wonderful question. John Lovett, what do you think?

[John Lovett]

I think there's two parts to it. I think the first part is to remind them that ultimately, yes, you are choosing between two candidates, but it's not really about them. It's not about giving one of them a job or giving one of them a win. It's about the impact of it would have. It's about the stakes inside of the race. And if you look at those stakes, you may be unhappy with Joe Biden as an option, but if you consider the stakes for abortion, for climate, whether you want a child tax credit or you want lower corporate taxes, whether you want someone that will unleash, try to unleash Texas National Guard on Seattle in the event of a protest. Right. The stakes remain high, even if people have a lot of very legitimate frustrations and concerns, concerns with politics. That's the first part. And the second part is no vote solves everything. No vote changes everything. If you vote for Joe Biden, a better future is possible. If you vote for Donald Trump, it just isn't. And there's a bunch of stuff that we'd all like to see. And some of it's hard. Some of it will take years, some of it could take decades. Right. But we don't get closer to that if Donald Trump's in the White House. We can with someone like Joe Biden. And so if you put it in that context, this is part of a broader fight. This Vote is part of how you find other levers and other places to use your power. I hope that that is part of how we can persuade people.

[Kousha Navadar]

I love that answer in terms of looking more holistically and in the arc kind of of the fight for democracy, because we actually just got this text here that says, what advice can you give someone who's lost all hope in this election? I went from campaigning for Obama to barely investing any energy in this upcoming mess. It sounds like you'd give the same answer, right?

[John Lovett]

Yeah. You know, I think one of the lessons from 2016 is people would ask this question, like, do you have hope? Or is everything doomed or is everything broken? Or will we win? What's going to happen? What's going to happen? And I think sometimes what that really is is sort of like, do I need to worry about this? Are we going to be okay? And the answer is, nobody knows. As John was saying, we don't know what's going to happen happen. But I do think the core mistake there was privileging how you feel in this moment, how you feel in the days leading up to an election will not matter when the election is over. You know, it just the, the, the reality is that politics, sometimes it's inspiring, sometimes it's a slog, sometimes there's a candidate that makes you feel like they can make the world make sense. And sometimes you're pulling a lever like a graveyard shift nurse, putting on gloves, just trying to get through the shift.

[Kousha Navadar]

And.

[John Lovett]

What was the question.

[Jon Favreau]

You brought up? 2016. And a lot of people in that election said, I'm not inspired by either candidates. There was a lot of people like, as the last caller said, who said, I don't want to vote for either one of them. Right. Okay, fast forward to right now. One in three women live in states with abortion bans. 65,000 women have been forced to give birth to their rapist's baby over the last couple years. If the people in 2016 who didn't feel as hopeful about Hillary Clinton or didn't feel great about both candidates had just decided to vote for Hillary Clinton, then none of that would be happening right now. There would be a Supreme Court that was actually a progressive majority on the Supreme Court, there would be no abortion bans, and then maybe you still wouldn't have been excited by Hillary Clinton as president, but you'd probably be excited that the right to choose is a right that is enshrined for all people in all 50 states. Right. And so it can feel like a slog but also like making a difference in your life, your family's life, in the life of your country by voting and watching that improvement, even if it's slow, incremental improvement, that's still improvement. You're still saving lives, you're still making people's lives better. And you can't fix everything, but you can fix some things. And like, that's what politics has to be about.

[Kousha Navadar]

Yeah. Let's go to David in Park Slope. Hi, David, welcome to the show.

[Caller]

Hi. I'm A Brooklyn resident, 77 year old Vietnam era veteran, and I want to give a shout out to a terrific organization called Vote Vets. I haven't heard them talked about too much in public. They're very focused and directed on the disrespect and awful qualities that Trump displays towards veterans. The whole thing with Normandy, the thing with John McCain where he he prefers prisoners, he prefers people who are not prisoners. All the disrespect to the gold star, and yet he's willing to call out the military. So it's a strange thing. Anyway, this organization, which one can donate to, they're very specific and directed in races around the country. Not so much in New York, as far as I can tell, but in key states where congressional, district, senatorial votes might be close.

[Kousha Navadar]

And it was called Vote Vets.

[Caller]

David, that kind of attention.

[Kousha Navadar]

Yeah, David, it was called Vote Vets. Thanks so much for that call. We really appreciate it. I want to try to get to one more call. Here's Ann in Staten Island. Ann, you've got about 30 seconds. Go ahead.

[Caller]

Good afternoon, this is Anne in Staten Island. I have good news for you. Two colleagues and I, and we're in our 70s and 80s, organized a group called Seniors with Common Concerns. And we had our first meeting last Wednesday and 25 people showed up. Seniors. I had preferred the word seasoned citizens, but I was voted down. But anyway, one of your guests used the word agency. That is a very important word. And I was one of the speakers last week and I used that word in terms of seniors do have agency. We are not invisible. We have very informed ideas and we have life experience and wisdom.

[Kousha Navadar]

Ann, thank you so much for that. Totally hear you. We so appreciate you calling. Gonna have to pause you there just for time. Tommy, I'm looking at the clock, got about 40 seconds left. I'm gonna give you the last question. You hear Ann talking, you hear all these folks saying, I'm a part of this organization. This is what I'm doing.

[John Lovett]

Sure.

[Kousha Navadar]

There's so many more people listening out there who don't know what to do, just put a book out there. What would you say to them?

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, I mean, listen, you can buy the book and get some great advice or you could go to a website we put together called votesaveamerica.com where we try to help people find places where they can volunteer or donate campaigns to get involved in great progressive organizations.

[John Lovett]

So check that out.

[Kousha Navadar]

Thank you so much.

[John Lovett]

And anybody organizing in Staten island, that's the place we need people, we need seniors to figure out how to turn that red little blotch blue. And it's gonna take time.

[Jon Favreau]

And we gotta help that. The seasoned citizen who's gonna be debating Thursday night.

[John Lovett]

Yeah, we gotta.

[Jon Favreau]

I love seasoned citizen. We're going to tell that to the Biden campaign.

[Kousha Navadar]

Well, be sure to give and some credit there.

[John Lovett]

Shout out to and from season. Maybe a little, little too season sometimes.

[Kousha Navadar]

So we've been talking to Jon Favreau, Jon Lovett and Tommy Vitor. Their new book Democracy or Else how to save America in 10 easy steps. Thank you all three so much for coming by.

[Jon Favreau]

Thanks for having us.

[John Lovett]

Thank you.

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[Kousha Navadar]

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