Poet Cynthia Zarin's 'Next Day' Collection

Summary

Podcast Summary: All Of It — Poet Cynthia Zarin's 'Next Day' Collection

Host: Alison Stewart
Guest: Cynthia Zarin
Date: September 26, 2024
Episode Theme:
This episode explores the craft and life of acclaimed poet Cynthia Zarin, focusing on her latest collection, Next Day, which combines new works and selected poems from her decades-long career. The conversation weaves between the process of curating a career-spanning collection, the emotional and thematic through-lines of her poetry, memorable collaborations, family, and her foray into fiction.

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Main Themes & Episode Purpose

• Creation and Curation: An intimate look at how Cynthia Zarin selected and revisited poems for her new collection, and the unexpected discoveries in her older works.
• The Nature of Poetry: Reflections on the craft, editing, and the lived experience that informs her poems.
• Memory and Recrimination: Recurring motifs in Zarin’s work—memory, personal atonement, and the lingering effects of early experiences.
• Family and Art: The significance of artistic collaboration within her family, particularly regarding the cover art of Next Day.
• Expanding Literary Horizons: Insights into Zarin's recent debut novel, the process behind it, and her ongoing literary evolution.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Curating a Career-Spanning Collection

• Revisiting Old Poems:
  • Zarin was surprised at how vividly she remembered her poems while retyping the entire manuscript, finding herself “inside of them” due to the meticulous revision process throughout her career.
  • Quote (Cynthia Zarin, 02:19):
    “I do work so hard. 80 revisions is not unusual for me. So... it was a little bit, I was surprised by that.”
• Enduring Themes:
  • She notes many of her enduring subjects were present in her very first poem, The Orchard Dialogue.
  • Quote (Cynthia Zarin, 02:54):
    “I think that most of the themes are in that very first poem. So that was... interesting.”

Readings and Reflections

• "The Orchard Dialogue" is read aloud (04:01), setting a tone of nostalgia, place, and an undercurrent of longing and loss.
• Sound and Poetry:
  • Zarin emphasizes reading poems aloud as essential to her process; she encourages students to do the same to appreciate “heightened speech.”
  • Quote (Cynthia Zarin, 05:49):
    “Poetry is really so close to song. You know, it's in between song and prose and maybe drama. So it's really a kind of heightened speech.”

Collaboration and Editorial Relationships

• Working with Editor Deborah Garrison:
  • Their longtime partnership underpins Zarin’s publishing journey. Garrison’s belief and gentle nudges have been pivotal in bringing the books to fruition.
  • Quote (Cynthia Zarin, 06:20):
    “She has really just been an ear all along... I really don't think these books would exist... without Deb's belief in my work as a poet and also her understanding of my temperament.”
• On Editorial Disagreement:
  • Zarin is “so hard on myself” that disputes are rare, though occasional feedback from other editors is helpful, often at the level of a “comma.”

On Memory, Regret, and the Poem “Harriet”

• Zarin reads “Harriet,” a concise, haunting poem rooted in childhood guilt and its lasting reverberations (09:01).
• The poem’s honest reckoning of an old unkindness provides a window into Zarin’s recurring theme of self-reproach.
• Quote (Cynthia Zarin, 10:01):
  “You know, when you're a child... you just say something mean... I really carried it around forever.”

Family, Art, and the Book Cover

• Cover Art by Daughter, Rose:
  • The inclusion is emotionally meaningful, continuing a family tradition as the children’s father created her earlier covers.
• Selection Process:
  • The chosen painting wasn’t the obvious pick, but proved perfect, symbolizing unplanned but organic resonance in her creative life.

Poetry and Parenting

• While her children grew up surrounded by poetry, Zarin reflects on the separation between parental and literary identities.
• Quote (Cynthia Zarin, 11:43):
  “Children really like you to be their parent rather than a writer who is perhaps writing about things they'd rather not think about.”

Expanding into Fiction: The Novel "Inverno"

• Zarin describes the evolution of her debut novel, which began as a letter and grew, over a decade, through expansion and ruthless editing (12:21).
• The novel’s compressed final form emerged from hundreds of thousands of words, a process involving outside feedback and perseverance.
• Upcoming Work:
  • A companion novel, Estate, will follow next year.

Title Poem and Literary Influence

• Zarin reads the title poem, “Next Day” (14:00), explaining its nod to Grace Paley’s story collections, evoking continuity, change, and poetic aftermath.
• The poem is dense with imagery—moths, mermaids, woodpiles—evoking both transience and persistence.

On Teaching and Contemporary Poetry

• Zarin teaches at Yale; students primarily write from personal experience, often gravitating toward love poems.
• Notable Student Quote (Cynthia Zarin relaying, 15:45):
  “A poem is an impossible gesture towards a dubious outcome.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Reliving Old Work:
  • “You think, in this day and age... I'm not exactly sure why I ended up retyping the whole manuscript.” (Cynthia Zarin, 02:19)
• On Editorial Collaborations:
  • “Once in a while, she'll say... I think it's time for a book. And I'll say, I don't have anything. And she'll say, yes, you do. I'm putting you on the list...” (Cynthia Zarin, 06:47)
• On the Enduring Nature of Childhood Guilt:
  • “Monster is what the mirror said to me. I opened my mouth and Harriet fled.” (from “Harriet,” Cynthia Zarin, 08:59)
• On Transference in Parenting/Poetry:
  • “Children really like you to be their parent rather than a writer who is perhaps writing about things they'd rather not think about.” (Cynthia Zarin, 11:43)
• On the Work of Craft:
  • “I wrote 700 words a day or a thousand words a day. And after a while you have a lot.” (Cynthia Zarin, 12:30)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:17] Introduction to Cynthia Zarin and her work
• [02:04] Revisiting and curating her entire body of poetry
• [04:01] Reading “The Orchard Dialogue”
• [05:49] On poetry as sound, reading work aloud
• [06:10] Dedication to editor Deborah Garrison; editorial relationship
• [07:49] Types and process of poetic editing
• [08:39] Reading and discussing “Harriet”
• [09:59] Emotional weight and aftermath of childhood cruelty
• [10:45] Discussing the family involvement in cover art
• [12:21] Overview of Inverno, Zarin’s novel-writing journey
• [13:52] Reading the title poem, “Next Day”
• [15:36] Poetry teaching and student interests

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Overall Tone and Language

The tone remains reflective, intimate, and gently humorous, rich with the language of someone deeply engaged with the subtleties of experience and craft. Both Alison Stewart and Cynthia Zarin demonstrate warmth, curiosity, and a shared reverence for the written word.

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This episode provides an enlightening portrait of Cynthia Zarin—her creative process, influences, and the lived realities behind her poetic voice—making it essential listening for poetry lovers and the culturally curious.

Transcript

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[Cynthia Zarin]

Listener Supported WNYC Studios this is all.

[Alison Stewart]

Of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. Cynthia Zarin is a born and bred New Yorker whose latest collection combines selected poems from her long writing career dating back to her first public collection in 1988. You may have seen Zarin's poems published in the New Yorker, the Atlantic, the Paris Review, and the New York Review of Books, just to name a few. She also released her debut novel this year to critical acclaim. The book is called Inverno. It began as A letter before the story took on a life of its own. The new poetry collection is called Next Day. It's out now and Cynthia Zarin joins me in studio. Welcome to wnyc.

[Cynthia Zarin]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Alison Stewart]

There are the new poems. There are the older poems from past collections. As you put the collection together, what struck you about revisiting this older work.

[Cynthia Zarin]

That'S so interesting that you asked, because of course, one doesn't sit down and read all your books all the way through. And then on top of that, I'm not exactly sure why I ended up retyping the whole manuscript.

[Alison Stewart]

Oh, that's interesting.

[Cynthia Zarin]

You think, in this day and age. So I really was inside it. And one of the things I was struck by a few things, one was that I really remembered them. Do you know, I knew what would come next. And that was interesting to me because I couldn't recite them, but as I was typing them, I was inside of them because I do work so hard. 80 revisions is not unusual for me. So it's a little bit like when you were little, if you played the piano, you can still sit down and play something, right? So it was a little bit. I was surprised by that I was surprised. My joke is, and maybe I'll read it a bit later, is that I wrote the first poem in this book when I was an undergraduate. And when I read it, kept read it a number of times, I really thought, well, you know, I could have stopped there. I think that most of the themes are in that very first poem. So that was surprise, you know, that was interesting. And I was also a little bit taken aback by the constant. Maybe not so taken aback by the constant self incrimination, the constant feeling of not having quite done something right or having to make some kind of amends. That was striking to me.

[Alison Stewart]

Was the first poem the Orchard Dialogue?

[Cynthia Zarin]

Yes.

[Alison Stewart]

Can we hear it?

[Cynthia Zarin]

Sure.

[Alison Stewart]

That would be really great. This is going to be Cynthia Zarin reading from her book next day.

[Cynthia Zarin]

The Orchard Dialogue. The wings of what you think open over the tin roofs up where the milkweed grows and two songs here and then converge. The tune disappears. The stars are small as bluebells and distant as childhood. The streets repeat themselves, each one a boardwalk with its circle of pretty girls. Oh, give me all there is to love, she sang. The man who ran the gramophone under the makeshift bandstand is gone. And in the corner of the orchard the peach tree flutters a few leaves in the silvery darkness. Out on the veranda a girl lights the Japanese lanterns and her reflection cast back to you by her own taper pleats on the water. She wavers on the pond's slight current like a broken oar. The dory rocks empty in the shallows, and it's as if you dimly yourself must row the next minutes, even hours, towards some histrionic conclusion. But impossibly, you can't remember even simple facts. Orchard Pond street girl. Between the pond and the veranda the mulberries flower, paper thin, fragrant as the song sung under the arbor. The mine balks. The view is a history of recitations, place names and their colors. It is autumn. She is a field above the tree line, the valley gone to seed and riot.

[Alison Stewart]

That's the Orchard Dialogue. Cynthia Zarin is our guest. When you're writing a poem, do you think about it being read aloud?

[Cynthia Zarin]

I always read my work aloud again and again because poetry is really is so close to song, you know, it's in between song and prose and maybe drama. So it's really a kind of heightened speech. And so the sound is so important. And I have my students read their work. Allowed? Always.

[Alison Stewart]

Your book is dedicated to your editor, Deborah Garrison. You call her Deb. And your fifth book with Her. What about editing with her? Helps you out.

[Cynthia Zarin]

You know, I've known Deb, I may get it wrong, since I was about 23 and she was 20. So you started together? Well, yes, we did. My first editor at Knopf was the late and great Harry Ford, who came from an athenaeum. And I was terrified when I found that out because I thought, oh, you know, what's he going to think of me? Because he really, I do have to say it. He published almost no women during his career. But in the end, we took a lot of pleasure, I think, in each other's company. And indeed, his wife, Kathleen, became my first daughter's godmother. But with Deb, she has really just been an ear all along. And once in a while, she'll say to me, you know, I think it's time for a book. And I'll say, I don't have anything. And she'll say, yes, you do. I'm putting you on the list for X season, X year. And then I do it. I finish it. So I really don't think that these books would exist to some degree without Deb's really belief in my work as a poet and also her understanding of my temperament.

[Alison Stewart]

Are there ever disagreements when it comes to poetry? Or is she someone who says, maybe this needs more work?

[Cynthia Zarin]

You know, most of the editing that I've had has been in prose at the New Yorker for many, many years and now at fsg. And I guess with Deb, when we did Enlarged Heart with poetry, I am so hard on myself that there isn't much. Once in a while, I think, you know, it's not as sometimes there'll be. You know, if we're putting together a collection, we'll say, well, maybe not this one, maybe not that one. But there's almost never been a disagreement. And Hannah Eisenman, who is Kevin Young's assistant editor at the New Yorker, is sometimes will suggest the change in grammar. Maybe that should be a comma often. She's right. So I do get that little bit of editing.

[Alison Stewart]

Cynthia, would you read another poem for us?

[Cynthia Zarin]

Sure. I think I'm going to read. Since I was talking about recrimination.

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[Cynthia Zarin]

Think I just lost the recrimination. Yeah, I'm just. I'm looking for the poem Harriet.

[Alison Stewart]

It's page 78.

[Cynthia Zarin]

Thank you very much. Sure.

[Alison Stewart]

My guess is right.

[Cynthia Zarin]

Right. My bookmark fell out. So this is a poem. It's very short, and it's centered on the page. I think it's about 10 lines. And it was an Incident that I thought about for many, many years and tried it in many ways. And it's a childhood memory. It's called Harriet. Why did I say what I did to Harriet? She was my age. Nine, I don't think. 10. A kind of taunting I'd not do again. Not to Harriet, who for me, still limps up the hill. Jacket torn, stained, skirt rent. Harriet who wasn't beautiful yet. Monster is what the mirror said to me. I opened my mouth and Harriet fled. Now those words are breath. There's no sound but the hissing wind in the wild trees and Harriet falling as she didn't then.

[Alison Stewart]

That's a spooky poem.

[Cynthia Zarin]

Yeah. You know, I just carry that memory. You know, when you're a child and you. You just say something mean. That, at least for me, wasn't. You know, I wasn't someone who would normally shout at anybody, and I don't have any idea why I did it. And I really carried it around forever. Her expression and her.

[Alison Stewart]

Did you feel better after you wrote about it?

[Cynthia Zarin]

No, of course not. I felt, you know, that I had made something out of the experience rather than it just floating around in my head. But not particularly better. No.

[Alison Stewart]

Cynthia Zarin is my guest. We're here to discuss her new poetry collection. Next day. The COVID is by your daughter, Rose.

[Cynthia Zarin]

It is, and it's especially meaningful to me because her father did the covers. Paintings of his appeared on the covers of my first two books.

[Alison Stewart]

What about this picture that made it the right cover?

[Cynthia Zarin]

Well, you know, some of that was up to John Gall, who did such a beautiful job. We submitted. I had this idea that I would like to do this. And he, of course, said to Deb, she told me later, oh, that's just what an art director wants to hear. The author wants their. A painting by their child on the COVID But then, well, she's not a child. She's 32. But when he saw them, you know, he tried a few of them, and this wasn't one that I had, you know, wasn't my first choice, but I think as a. It turned out to be so much better than I could have imagined. I just love the COVID I think it's quite beautiful.

[Alison Stewart]

You have four children, right?

[Cynthia Zarin]

I do.

[Alison Stewart]

Did you raise them around poetry?

[Cynthia Zarin]

Well, they always knew I was writing poetry, and I certainly sang to them. And they know poems by heart and that kind of thing. I mean, my children are not deep readers of my work, and certainly writer friends of mine have that. I have that in common with them. Children really like you to be their parent rather than a writer who is perhaps writing about things they'd rather not think about.

[Alison Stewart]

I do want to talk about your novel briefly. You released your debut novel earlier this year. It's called Inverno. And it said it took you about 10 years to write it.

[Cynthia Zarin]

It did, in a way. It took me 10 years to edit it. I'd say, as I've said before, it started as a long letter and I began to write a letter to somebody and then it took on a life of its own. And I wrote 700 words a day or a thousand words a day. And after a while you have a lot. And I always joke, I've always liked John Updike's line, I never saw anything I didn't imagine in 7 point type or 12 point type. And so I just kept carrying it around with me and not knowing what to do with it. And I would show it to friends and they would say, well, it's very beautiful, but what is it? Nothing. And then I. My wonderful agent in London, Luke Ingram, took a look at it and said, I think there is a book here. And I started to take it apart and put it together. So this book comes out of somewhere between 300 and 400,000 words. And it is about 50,000 words. It's very compressed. And indeed I have my. It's not a sequel, but a companion to In Werno in which Caroline speaks the main character in her own voice. Comes out in September of next year. Estate, which means summer in Italian from our Strauss and Drew.

[Alison Stewart]

That's exciting to.

[Cynthia Zarin]

Yeah, it's to look forward to, maybe.

[Alison Stewart]

My guess is Cynthia Zarin. Her new book is called Next Day. Would we have time for one more?

[Cynthia Zarin]

Sure. Let's see. Maybe. Why don't I read the title poem?

[Alison Stewart]

Okay.

[Cynthia Zarin]

Next Day. And if there's time for comment, I think that the title of this. You know, speaking to my fellow New Yorkers, I had always loved the titles of Grace Paley's books of stories, which are. I think they kind of COVID the waterfront, the little disturbances of man. Enormous changes at the last minute. And later that same day, and I think Next Day was a little bit of a nod to that idea. Next day, the wood pile full of moths and mice, Wood turned to ash before it's lit ablaze at dawn your dream, a mermaid with a ticking fuse Slips through sleep's bedraggled net, her whipsaw tail a metronome. What's to become of us? A scant mile off a turn helter skelter at the low tide mark writes its question Greater than less than sea foam marbleizes each green wave Neptune's paradisical endpapers last love the moth on fire Wings charred dun Lavender butts its velvet match head on the mantel. If I love you less, let me be that gossamer that's so beautiful. Oh, thank you.

[Alison Stewart]

You teach at Yale?

[Cynthia Zarin]

Yes, I do.

[Alison Stewart]

About a minute left. I shouldn't even ask this question. What are students interested in writing?

[Cynthia Zarin]

What are they interested in writing about? I think they're interested in writing about what has happened to them. And I think, of course, they're interested in writing love poems. One of my students said a poem is an impossible gesture towards a dubious outcome. So I would agree with that.

[Alison Stewart]

The book is called Next New and Selected Poems. It's by Cynthia Zarin. Thank you so much for coming to the studio and for reading your poem for us.

[Cynthia Zarin]

Okay, thank you very much, Allison.

[Alison Stewart]

And that is all of it for today. I'm Alison Stewart. I appreciate you listening. I appreciate you, and I will meet you back here tomorrow.

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