Puberty Hits Harder These Days

Summary

All Of It: Puberty Hits Harder These Days Episode Release Date: May 30, 2025

Host: David Fuerst (in place of Alison Stewart)
Guest: Dr. Cheryl Gonzalez Ziegler, Clinical Psychologist and Author of The Crucial: The Essential Guide to Mental Health and Modern Puberty in Middle Childhood, Ages 6-12-20

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Introduction

In this episode of All Of It, hosted by David Fuerst, Dr. Cheryl Gonzalez Ziegler delves into the complexities of puberty in middle childhood, exploring its profound impact on children's emotional and psychological development. Drawing from her new book, Dr. Ziegler provides insights into why puberty is occurring earlier than previous generations and offers guidance for parents navigating this challenging phase.

The Forgotten Years: Ages 6-12

[01:34] Dr. Cheryl Gonzalez Ziegler:

"In our field, they're called the forgotten years because people do tend to kind of kick back."

Dr. Ziegler highlights that children between the ages of 6 and 12 often receive less attention compared to early childhood and teenage years. This period, known as the school-age years, is critical for cognitive, emotional, and moral development. Children begin to form their identities, develop self-esteem, and acquire essential life skills.

[03:49] David Fuerst:

"If you feel like you dropped the ball during those crucial years, is there a way to repair the damage?"

Dr. Ziegler reassures parents that it's never too late to foster a healthy relationship with their children. She emphasizes the importance of acknowledging past oversights and making intentional changes to support their child's ongoing development.

Early Onset of Puberty

[04:20] Dr. Cheryl Gonzalez Ziegler:

"Puberty’s happening now, earlier... while they're still trying to figure out what can I do, all of a sudden their body is developing at rates that are faster than they are emotionally."

The conversation shifts to the concerning trend of earlier puberty onset. Dr. Ziegler cites studies indicating that children are entering puberty approximately two years earlier than previous generations, a shift comparable in significance to climate change's impact. Factors contributing to this trend include obesity, socioeconomic status, exposure to environmental toxins, and increased stress or trauma.

[06:52] Dr. Cheryl Gonzalez Ziegler:

"It's a long, long process, not one and done."

Dr. Ziegler advises that discussions about puberty should begin around ages 5 or 6, establishing an ongoing dialogue rather than treating it as a singular conversation. This approach helps children understand and navigate the physical and emotional changes they will experience.

Navigating Parental Challenges

Listener calls provide real-world scenarios and questions, which Dr. Ziegler addresses with practical advice:

Claudia from Elmont ([08:21] - [11:48]):
Claudia expresses concerns about a strained relationship with her 12-year-old son regarding schoolwork and daily responsibilities. Dr. Ziegler recommends fostering independence by guiding rather than doing tasks for their children. She emphasizes the importance of allowing children to manage their own responsibilities to build self-esteem and executive functioning skills.

[11:48] David Fuerst:

"What if you feel like you dropped the ball during those crucial years?"

Dr. Ziegler responds by encouraging parents to use their past experiences as learning opportunities, demonstrating growth and commitment to better supporting their children moving forward.

Addressing Early Sexual Education

Andrea from South Salem ([14:42] - [15:05]):
Andrea seeks advice on when to discuss sex education with her nine-year-old son, who is becoming aware of his own body and differences compared to others.

[15:05] Dr. Cheryl Gonzalez Ziegler:

"You're right at the perfect time. So let me back up though, and say before you're going to jump to talking to a kid about sexual, you want to first make sure that they truly know what's happening to their own bodies."

Dr. Ziegler advises starting conversations about sexual development early, using accurate terminology and normalizing bodily changes. She also encourages discussing these topics in a comfortable and natural manner, making the information accessible and age-appropriate.

Impact of COVID-19 on Adolescent Development

Andrea's Second Call ([19:30] - [22:46]):
Andrea shares concerns about her teenage children's emotional development during the COVID-19 pandemic, noting delays and challenges in emotional growth.

[21:00] Dr. Cheryl Gonzalez Ziegler:

"Kids lost about five years of emotional Growth. So what you're doing is meeting them where they're at."

Dr. Ziegler acknowledges the significant emotional setbacks caused by the pandemic, emphasizing the need for parents to meet their children at their current emotional levels. She explains that with intentional support, children can catch up emotionally despite these delays.

Supporting Children with Special Needs

Nicole from Ridgewood, Queens ([22:46] - [25:33]):
Nicole discusses her six-year-old son's questions about his body and gender identity within a queer partnership.

[23:30] Dr. Cheryl Gonzalez Ziegler:

"You want to label his body parts as his actual body parts... Penis, scrotum, semen, sperm."

Dr. Ziegler underscores the importance of using correct anatomical terms and normalizing questions about one's body to prevent feelings of shame. She advises creating a supportive environment where children feel comfortable discussing their bodies and identities.

Evolving Challenges: The Digital Age

[29:35] David Fuerst:

"A lot has changed during that time. What would you say? A couple of the most significant things that you can mention and how your work has changed because of them?"

Dr. Ziegler points to the advent of the internet, social media, and digital technologies as transformative factors affecting children's development. She highlights the challenges of teaching digital citizenship and managing the overwhelming influx of information that children now encounter effortlessly.

[32:17] Dr. Cheryl Gonzalez Ziegler:

"Kids are capturing content on YouTube better than us to. And it starts off seeming very innocent. Before you know it, they're hearing about adult issues like climate change, which leads to increased anxiety and depression."

She emphasizes the necessity for parents and educators to guide children in navigating digital spaces responsibly, ensuring they develop critical thinking skills to discern credible information and manage their emotional responses to pervasive media content.

Conclusion

In this episode, Dr. Cheryl Gonzalez Ziegler provides a comprehensive exploration of puberty in middle childhood, emphasizing the importance of early and ongoing communication between parents and children. She addresses the rising trend of early puberty, the unique challenges posed by the digital age, and offers practical strategies for fostering emotional resilience and independence in children. Dr. Ziegler's insights serve as a valuable resource for parents seeking to support their children through one of the most pivotal stages of development.

For those interested in a deeper dive, Dr. Ziegler's book, The Crucial: The Essential Guide to Mental Health and Modern Puberty in Middle Childhood, Ages 6-12-20, offers extensive guidance and resources.

Transcript

[David Fuerst]

This is all of it on wnyc. I'm David Fuerst in for Alison Stewart. If you're new to parenthood, you were probably prepared for the sleep deprivation of infancy and the chaotic toddler phase. But you might have thought that once your child started kindergarten, things would ease up a little. They're talking, they can sometimes entertain themselves. In other words, you may have thought that the elementary school years would be the calm before the storm of teenagehood, but it's often anything but quiet. That middle period of middle childhood is a time of enormous emotional, social, cognitive growth. It's when kids are forming their identity, they're learning skills that they're going to need for the rest of their lives or what happens or doesn't happen during this time can shape everything from a child's self esteem to their long term mental health. So supporting kids as they move through these years is important for their long term well being. Psychologist Dr. Cheryl Gonzalez Ziegler writes about this in her new book, the Crucial the Essential Guide to Mental Health and Modern Puberty in middle childhood. Ages 6, 12, 20. Dr. Ziegler joins us now. Welcome to all of it.

[Dr. Cheryl Gonzalez Ziegler]

Thank you so much for having me.

[David Fuerst]

What is happening for kids developmentally between those ages 6 and 12?

[Dr. Cheryl Gonzalez Ziegler]

Yes, I'm so glad you're asking because in our field they're called the forgotten years because people do tend to kind of kick back.

[David Fuerst]

That's a lot of years to forget.

[Dr. Cheryl Gonzalez Ziegler]

It's a lot, it's a lot. But you're so focused, zero to five, like you were saying, you're sleep deprived, you just wanna keep them alive. And really you're kind of focusing on your bonding and like, okay, you know, safety and security in the world. And then they go to school. So we're talking kinder to about sixth grade and we call it sort of the school age years. Right. And it's like we start to focus on academics and that's one thing that's happening. Sure, there's cognitive development happening like you were saying, but there's all this other stuff that's going on, which is a lot around moral development and a sense of what can I do, what am I good at? So that's what's really key is that once they get to those teen years, it's what's my identity, who am I and where are my people? But right before that, it's what can I actually do? And that means literally everything from can I catch a ball to can I be a friend, Can I make breakfast? What can I do? And so that's a big thing of what's going on. But the crucial years are interesting now because puberty's happening now, earlier. And that used to be an adolescent thing. So while they're still trying to figure out, like, what can I do? I. All of a sudden their body is developing at rates that are faster than they are emotionally. Does that make sense?

[David Fuerst]

I wanna come back to that idea of puberty happening earlier. But 6 to 12, as we mentioned, covers a range of years. And not every child develops at the same rate and along the same curve. Right?

[Dr. Cheryl Gonzalez Ziegler]

That's right. So you can have a kid who's more, let's say, along the lines with empathy. And you're like, oh, my kid's doing really well there, but maybe they're not doing as great, let's say, I don't know, with reading. And then maybe there's the phys. Oh, yeah, my kid's a great athlete already. And you've got another person who's like, oh, my gosh, my kid just. They can't figure things out. They're tripping all the time. So there is a lot of uneven development. Things don't really start to equal out in a sense, until sometimes you're 16, 17. It's an older adolescent thing when sort of puberty's kind of done. Everybody's caught up. Everyone's. The height, the weight, the intellectual capacity, they're. They're sort of arrived. So there's a lot of development still going on.

[David Fuerst]

Listeners, we want to hear from you during this conversation. Do you have a child who is between the ages of 6 and 12? Do you have any questions for Dr. Ziegler? Give us a call or text us. 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC. And let's come back to that question of puberty. You say that studies show that kids are entering puberty earlier. How do we measure that? How do we know?

[Dr. Cheryl Gonzalez Ziegler]

Yes. Such a good question. So if we look back a hundred years ago, so there's two sort of metrics. First of all, about 100 years ago, Freud said this is latency. He called this stage of childhood latency. So everything's quiet. Things are just calm and quiet. Sexual development isn't happening. And when we look back since about the 1980s, kids have been going through puberty about three months younger per decade. So we are now at about two years younger. And that's significant. It almost reminds me of, like, climate change. Like sometimes when you hear things and they go, oh, it's a degree here and a degree there. Well, that's a big deal in terms of the earth. This is a big deal in terms of child development. So we know that it's happening younger and younger. We know that kids who are of color or who have a lot of stress or trauma in their backgrounds also go through it younger. So we know that there's different reasons. There's not one single reason.

[David Fuerst]

Yeah, why is that happening?

[Dr. Cheryl Gonzalez Ziegler]

So there's like, there's leading reasons. One of them, not in order necessarily is obesity. We have a lot of kids who are obese in this country. And so having more body fat on you progresses puberty along stress, trauma, higher ACEs scores. Those kids, their bodies also develop faster. We know that. We look at socioeconomic status, sometimes it'll say race. So again, when I say like black and brown kids, but really we think it'll say race black. But what's underneath that really is socioeconomic status. So again, ultra processed foods and the quality of food and sleep and all of that that kids have. So you look at environmental toxins, hormones and foods, stress, obesity. This is the formula for why kids are going through this much earlier than before.

[David Fuerst]

And can you talk about the difference just so we can make the distinction here between puberty and adolescence?

[Dr. Cheryl Gonzalez Ziegler]

Yeah, such a good question. So in the book we write, and I say there's the word adolescence is almost not even that useful because there's a lot of different definitions. Technically, adolescence isn't around an age like 12 or 13, although I think we generally associate it with teens. Really, adolescence is when sexual development starts. And so sexual development, let's say, starts at nine years old. Now then, now we're saying we're calling nine year olds adolescents, whereas before we would have again been thinking, I think 13, usually a teenager. So adolescence is sort of a term that seems to be a moving target.

[David Fuerst]

I want to get to some phone calls. We're getting some questions for you right now. But I wanted to also ask you, when should we start talking about puberty with kids?

[Dr. Cheryl Gonzalez Ziegler]

I think that's a conversation to start probably around age 5, 5 or 6. And it's a simple conversation at 5 or 6. It just starts off by just saying like, you know, even let's say they're going to kindergarten. Oh, all these things are going to happen. You're going to continue to grow and your body's gonna continue to change and your brain does. And what you really wanna say, like to a young kid in kindergarten, first grade, is something called Puberty, which is when your body changes, first starts in the brain. Because we know if you see physical signs of puberty in your kid, let's say in third or fourth grade, about a year before the chemicals and the hormones started to change in the brain. So that just means if they feel moody, if they feel sad, they can't explain why they, their preferences for things are changing. You just say to your kid, really easy breezy, not alarmist, hey, there's something called puberty and it starts in the brain. It's probably starting in your brain, that's all. You just start there and then you build.

[David Fuerst]

And you don't leave it at 1. This is a continuing conversation.

[Dr. Cheryl Gonzalez Ziegler]

This is a long, long. Yes. This is six, seven years, not one and done. No, no.

[David Fuerst]

We are speaking with Dr. Cheryl Gonzalez Ziegler, clinical psychologist, author of the book the Crucial the Essential Guide to Mental Health and Modern Puberty in Middle Childhood. We're talking about the 6 through 12. And we are taking your calls if you'd like to join the conversation. The number 212-433-9692. Let's hear from Claudia in Elmont. Welcome to all of it.

[Dr. Cheryl Gonzalez Ziegler]

Hi.

[Claudia]

Hi. Thank you for taking my call. So I have a 12 year old and obviously I'm mom. And I feel that I am at war with my 12 year old every day when it comes to schoolwork and just making sure everything gets done. I am just afraid that if I don't, you know, if I'm not asking him, hey, are you done with work? Hey, is everything completed? I feel as though he wouldn't get anything done and I feel as though we're enemies as opposed to mom and son right now. So I am not sure how to navigate this phase of ensuring he does everything correctly and promptly for school, but also just, you know, leaving him to be and letting him do his own mistakes. I just, I don't know what to do.

[David Fuerst]

Claudia, this is an excellent question and I'm going to be listening very closely to the answer.

[Dr. Cheryl Gonzalez Ziegler]

Oh, hi, Claudia. I am in the same boat with you. I have a 12 year old too. And this past year I felt like all of a sudden we're enemies. Like I just felt the same way and then I had to take my own advice. So, Claudia, I'm going to tell you professionally and then also personally what this looks like. So just remember, okay, the stakes are very low. And when is he, I'm assuming he's in sixth grade. Is he a sixth grader?

[Nicole]

Seventh.

[Dr. Cheryl Gonzalez Ziegler]

Seventh. Okay, seventh grader. Stakes are still relatively low. Meaning if he doesn't hand something in. Right. If he doesn't get an A in a class, that's not going to prevent him from getting into the college of his dreams, which are things that parents are already getting stressed about. So take advantage. I like to call these years the years of opportunity. So take advantage of the fact that you, you are going to sit by sometimes and it's so hard, and you're going to see like, these are real examples for me. The charger of the laptop sitting on the counter. Did you, did you. Do you think you remembered everything? Right? And so you're there to help with the executive functioning, but you're not there to do it, because if you do it, they're not going to learn it. Right. So you're there. You can prompt. Do you think you have everything? Did you create a list? Or he comes home from school, why don't we sit down? Why don't you make a list? My kid doesn't like to do it either, right. Of what you need to do tonight or what you need to pack or listen, let's pack tonight, not in the morning. You can do those motherly type of things, but now that he's 12, you don't then run back in the house and grab the charger or go get the lunch or the water bottle that they left or all those things that they do.

[David Fuerst]

Have you been watching me?

[Dr. Cheryl Gonzalez Ziegler]

I know all of us, all of us, right?

[David Fuerst]

I've done a lot of those things you just ticked off.

[Dr. Cheryl Gonzalez Ziegler]

Yes, well, and it's okay to do it when they're five and three, you know, but it's not really okay when they're 12. Because, Claudia, if this motivates you, this is what motivates me. Because trust me, I know it's easy. It's easier to clean their rooms. It's easier to pack up their. Their backpacks. It's easy on us, but we are not doing them a service. And so that's what motivates me. Like when I just want to go and grab it and just do it fast myself, I say wait, but I'm robbing him of the opportunity to learn. And that is my job as a parent. I am no longer like, in the book, I talk about our different roles, right? Like, I am no longer at 12. You're at your. You're about to go almost to like, manager mode. That's what I call it. Like, you're going from the CEO, right? Like, I am fully in charge. And I'm telling you where to be in all things at 12. He picks his own friends. He picks what he wants to do, probably. He picks the sports. He. All those things. And I'm not saying that you just let him make whatever decisions, but he's more in charge. You're there to help manage and guide, but support, not do.

[David Fuerst]

I know we're talking about the ages 6 to 12, but we have a text here that might be hitting on something I'd like to hear the answer to as well. That is, what if you feel like you dropped the ball during those crucial years? Is there a way to repair the damage? Talking about some of those things you were just talking about, not packing their bag, et cetera?

[Dr. Cheryl Gonzalez Ziegler]

Yes, yes. Let me tell you, this has been a surprise to me, talking all over the country about this book that comes up. At every single talk, somebody inevitably has this look on their face of either horror or sadness in their life, like, oh, my God, my kid's 12 or 13, and I didn't. I missed the ball and I missed the boat. Yes. But this person says the word repair, and I have a whole section on that, and it's around like, just because you didn't do it this way or you did it a different way, there's always opportunity. That's what makes a healthy relationship. So when we do something either wrong, which I'm not saying you did, or you just didn't do it, you didn't know any better, that is an opportunity to show your kid that you go, hey, when we know better, we do better. And I know this now. And you know what, buddy? Or you know what, honey, I used to do all these things for you. And in some ways, I think that's why now that you're in high school or even if you're in college, that you're probably not so great at it, because I stepped in a lot. And that's on me. So here's how things are going to change. I'm still going to be here to support you. You can ask me any questions you have, but I'm not going to be doing those things for anymore because I love you too much to keep doing things that aren't helping you now and into the future. I just think you say that that's it. It's beautiful thing. You don't even have to. Don't say sorry. You're not sorry. You just know better now or you know differently. You're gonna try something different.

[David Fuerst]

Well, if you've noticed any of the things we're talking about as you've parented your own kids through puberty. We want to hear about it. Join the conversation. We have a number of calls we're gonna get to in just a moment. The number to call, 212-433-9692. We'll take your calls after a break and continue speaking with clinical psychologist Dr. Cheryl Gonzalez Ziegler, author of the new book the Crucial the Essential Guide to Mental Health and Modern Puberty in Middle Childhood. Stick around. This is all of it on wny. This is all of it on wnyc. We're talking about the new book the Crucial the Essential Guide to Mental Health and Modern Puberty in middle childhood, ages 6 through 12. We're speaking with Dr. Cheryl Gonzalez Ziegler, the author of this book. And we're also taking your calls. 212-433-9692. I'm David Fuerst in for Alison Stewart. And let's hear from Andrea in South Salem, New York. Welcome to all of it.

[Andrea]

Thank you so much for taking my call.

[Claudia]

I'm sure lots of parents have the same question. I have a boy who just turned nine and I would love to know when the appropriate time to speak to him about sex. I know lots of his peers are already a little more advanced in that knowledge. So what's a good time?

[Dr. Cheryl Gonzalez Ziegler]

Yeah, love this question. Thank you so much for asking it. So we have all of these statistics now with kids, kids having access to the Internet that they are viewing porn online and that is usually by accident at first, right? They're they're looking something up. Before they know it, they're either seeing just inappropriate sexual content all the way to porn. We know this is happening for majority of kids by the age of 12. So that means 9, 10, 11. So you're right at the perfect time. So let me back up though, and say before you're going to jump to talking to a kid about sexual, you want to first make sure that they truly know what's happening to their own bodies. And so let's say your nine year old, you know, you're saying, well, he's not going through puberty yet. Nothing's happening in his there's probably stuff happening around him. And so this is a beautiful, perfect opportunity to tell him about all sorts of things. You need to talk to him about sexual development. That includes getting erections, it includes masturbation. It includes pubic hair. For boys, their first sign of puberty physically is their testicles grow larger and their penis grows bigger. And that's something that a parent doesn't See, that's something. Maybe they notice, maybe they don't even. Right? So you want to let them know, hey, bud, that's the first thing that's going to happen. And I have scripts in the book to guide parents through all of these talks, literally. And so you want to start there and then when he starts asking questions and you know, usually for a boy, they do want to know about sperm and semen, then that's where it just naturally goes into, oh, yeah. And then, you know, the semen and sperm could fertilize an egg one day, should you ever want to have a child. And you just. Then you can lead into that conversation. But I do want to say first, let him know what's happening, why his voice might get deeper, why it starts cracking, all the things that happen to a boy and then go into the talk around sex. And I'd say for every parent, this is boys and girls, but please emphasize two things. Number one, let them know what's happening with the opposite gender. That's very helpful for them. It's something we don't typically do. And number two, really make sure that these are times that are somewhat comfortable. Right. Don't do it random. Don't be weird about it. Right. Cringey. A kid would say, like, just find these natural opportunities. They can be two, three minute conversations and then make them repetitive over time.

[David Fuerst]

And we're going to take another call, but I want to read a text very quickly here. This is echoing something we were talking about earlier. I'm a college professor and every semester have some students whose parents have clearly done the literal and figurative picking up for them throughout their adolescence. I echo the sentiment that this is a disservice for them.

[Dr. Cheryl Gonzalez Ziegler]

Yes. Oh, Professor, Hello. So I want to give you a little behind the scenes during the break. We were just talking and we were talking about kids going off to college. And so we're joking. Like, oh, if you've got a kid going off to college, is it too late? I go, no, because in college you are literally going to be faced with this. You're going to want to do a paper for your kid. You're going to want to remind them to set their own goal.

[David Fuerst]

Do a paper for your kid.

[Dr. Cheryl Gonzalez Ziegler]

Do a paper for your kids.

[David Fuerst]

Oh, my goodness.

[Dr. Cheryl Gonzalez Ziegler]

I mean, you can't imagine, right? How easy is it for your kid to go. The parent is all involved and they, oh, don't you have something due, you know, tomorrow? Yeah, I haven't totally gotten to it. Okay, send it to me. And these things happen. And this isn't a one off. I'm sure the professor right now is nodding his head and laughing or angry. So, yes, here's what I want to say. This is based. This isn't just like my theory. This is Erik Erickson's psychosocial stages of development. And so what I mean by that is this is a Psych 101 thing. This is a stage of development that's called industry versus inferiority. Literally has a name. A kid comes out of this at 12 or 13 and they either feel industrious, which would have been a term in the 1950s to say high self esteem, good self worth. I know what I'm good at. What or inferior, that's today's term is low self esteem. So you have to give them the opportunity to do these things themselves. Or we have a bunch of college kids who are 18 to 24, lonely, unhappy and truly have a hard time launching, whether it's college or elsewhere, into the work world because they hadn't had to do so much by themselves and learn to accept and thrive off of failure. That is really, really huge.

[David Fuerst]

Join the conversation. The number 212-433-9692. Let's hear from Nicole in Kew Gardens. Welcome.

[Andrea]

Hi, how are you?

[David Fuerst]

Great.

[Andrea]

Thanks for taking my call. I am calling. I have four children in rapid succession. They are almost 17, 15, 13 and almost 12. And it's three boys and then a girl at the end. And you would think I'd be calling about the 12 year old, the almost 12 year old. But I'm actually the conversation is a little bit more pertinent to the older ones because they went through this period of time during COVID And I really feel like they lost a lot of ground during that time because of the wacky situation that they were in in the city. And I'm just curious to know if you've noticed any sort of decline in these adolescent. I mean, I guess just the teens during the COVID years who went through.

[David Fuerst]

This time, not just in the city, everywhere. Right?

[Andrea]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, because I feel like almost my almost 12 year old. Obviously she's a girl and that's different, but she's a little bit further on than even the boys are because she had for years during that time in a regular school setting, whereas the boys didn't.

[David Fuerst]

There was the interruption. Dr. Ziegler.

[Dr. Cheryl Gonzalez Ziegler]

Yes, Nicole, what you're noticing as your instinct as a parent is actually what the data is showing. So we are estimating that kids lost about five years of emotional Growth. Okay, this is now data. And so we do know that truly your 17 year old feeling emotionally to you, like about a 12 year old, is, is tracking. And it makes sense. If you talk to any teacher, they will tell you, oh my gosh, this, these kids, middle schoolers feel like elementary school kids, high schoolers feel like young middle school kids. This is something that educators are seeing, teachers are seeing, and now the data is also supporting it. So what does that mean, what that means for you as a parent? And this is hard, but we can't skip steps. This is like a saying. I have, anybody who works with me knows that. And what I mean by that is developmentally, when it comes to social emotional development, you can't skip it. So what that means is yes, chronologically you're 17, but emotionally I'm going to meet you where you're at. And by doing that you're not holding your kid back, you're giving them what they needed. And then they're going to, let's say metaphorically. Right, emotionally going to go from 13, 14, 15, and they will catch up if you do that intentionally. Well, the problem is today people are seeing, parents are seeing what you're saying and they just want to say, this is ridiculous. You're 17 years old, you're 18 years old. Why are you behaving this way? Your younger sister, look at her, she's more mature than you. You're doing those things. But in actuality, that's the part that's not helpful. Treat them their emotional age and they will catch up. But this is really a whole generational.

[David Fuerst]

Problem and we have a lot of questions coming through right now. We'll try to get to as many of them as possible. The number 212-433-9692. Natasha in Ridgewood, Queens. Welcome to all of it.

[Nicole]

Hi, thanks so much for having me. So I was telling the screener I'm in a queer partnership and we have an almost six year old boy who very much feels like he is a boy and just wanted to get some feedback around. You know, he's been noticing that like, you know, he's the only person in the house with his particular genitals and he's like very much talking about that and just wanting to like, kind of figure out like how do we address that and how do we like prep him for like, you know, being more embodied in his own body and in his own feelings as he, you know, ages, you know, beyond six, seven, eight, you know, into his preteen years.

[Dr. Cheryl Gonzalez Ziegler]

Yeah, absolutely. It's such a great question. And I always say this to people because what happens is I have a chapter in the book that's like talking to your kid about puberty. And I give all these scripts and then people will say, oh, well, I'm gonna, you know, if I have a son, I'm gonna leave that up to his dad. And if I have a daughter, then I'll do that. And I say, you know, there are so many families in this country that don't have that luxury. We can't think that way. Moms need to be able to talk to their sons and, and all the way around, right? We have single parents, we have sing same sex parents, all of that. So here's the thing. You just want to say to him, yes, I am. You know, if you're talking to a six year old, I am a girl. And so my body parts are different than yours. And the girls in your class, their body parts are different too. But we all have brains, right? You can be silly with it, right? We all have brains, we all have eyeballs. And then there's some parts of our bodies that are. And so what you wanna do is you want to label his body parts as his actual body parts. A lot of people have all these little nicknames I have stories about that. Don't do that, right? We know we want to empower kids. And so penis, right? Scrotum, semen, sperm. And you wanna use those words. But initially starting off for him, you want what you wanna say to him. Especially if you have just one boy and you haven't started this conversation yet. Him and I have this all. And this is a whole nother chapter too, which sexual and gender identity which is exploring his body, just meaning probably touching himself is normal. You want to normalize, particularly for boys, you want to normalize some of these things because if they're not sure but they're touching themselves and it kind of feels good. This is where shame starts. When kids feel like I'm doing something. No one's ever talked to me. Nobody said this is okay. And so you want to do that. Or some people listening, I'm sure, because I get this all the time, say, oh, no, my kid will sit in the middle of our living room and he's touching himself and we're mortified. And I say, but that's normal. But what you wanna say to him is that's something that you can do in the privacy of your room. That's not something to do around other people. So these are all, all these questions are actually really normal and you need to normalize them.

[David Fuerst]

And we're talking about. You can read more in the book the Crucial the Essential Guide to Mental Health and Modern Puberty in middle childhood, ages 6 through 12. We're speaking with Dr. Cheryl Gonzales Ziegler, and we have so many questions. I wanna try to get to a couple of them here. This is an interesting text we just got. As a child in the 1980s, the Psychological and emotional support did not exist the way it does now. If not for Judy Blume books, I would have been completely lost. Despite years of talk therapy and medications, I still feel broken by puberty. Is there anything I can do to better understand and make peace with the turbulence of my adolescence?

[Dr. Cheryl Gonzalez Ziegler]

Oh, what a beautiful question. And here's what I want to say to this. You're never going to believe it. When you open the book in the very beginning, there's a whole page before you even start the book. It's almost a trigger warning. My early readers said, oh, my gosh, this book stirred up so much for me. Parents were saying that, and I was surprised. So at first we were going to do a trigger warning around that. There's a whole chapter on body image because that was really triggering for people. But we do. We cover bullying. We cover all the changes in the body, acne, all the things. And so I got so much feedback. So that's a beautiful question. I have so much sensitivity around it. So what can you do about it? I will say that for the person who sent this in, if you have a child, truly read this book, because our baggage, our experience. 6 to 12. I talk about my 6 to 12 years right in the introduction, and it did the same thing for me. It was like a walk down memory lane. Oh, yeah? What was it like? And I was assimilating and my skin was dark. And I literally feel the same way about Judy Blume. I was clapping when he was reading that out loud. Judy Blume was it. She really was the only person that wrote about these things. And I watched the movie as well and cried when I watched, you know, the Netflix rendition, because it really was our childhood for people who were kids in the 80s. So I will tell you that if you have a child, or you're going to have a child, or you think you're going to. If you read this book, even if you just read the first three chapters, you will get some of that repair. And there are times in there where I prompt you and I say, if right now you're feeling really overwhelmed by this Go seek out professional help. And I think a beautiful context for that to wrap this part up is to say if you're meeting with a therapist, like, I realize that either I am a parent of or I'm going to be a parent of a kid in this stage. And I had so much trauma or bad memories or poor body image or all the things I went to. And I need to work on that because I want to do better for my kid. And I think there's some really beautiful reparative work that can happen.

[David Fuerst]

Another question here, another text. My child is autistic, so everything happens later. Do you have any thoughts on that?

[Dr. Cheryl Gonzalez Ziegler]

Yes. Yes. I have a small section in the puberty part of the book around children with special needs. That is absolutely true. Here's what I'll say. I think the best thing you can do is find yourself a small community. Community. It can be a large community. There's communities online, but there's also in some areas, depending on where you are. I think this is so important because if you have a child who's anywhere on the spectrum, they are going to really struggle. When puberty starts, hygiene becomes a huge problem. Things around touching themselves can be a huge problem. And it is a huge challenge. And parents feel so alone in it. So I will say, I mean, there's some stuff you can read in this book I think would be really helpful. But I also want to say, please find your person. Even. Even if it's one other parent, it really does make a difference. All of a sudden you're in community. I'm in Denver, and there's a community there that has all of these parents that gather around this. And so I'm thinking here in New York, there's probably multiple please look for them. Because I think it'll be a huge game changer for a parent who's navigating this, because it is really challenging.

[David Fuerst]

You've been a clinical psychologist for more than two decades, is that right?

[Dr. Cheryl Gonzalez Ziegler]

Yes.

[David Fuerst]

A lot has changed during that time. What would you say? A couple of the most significant things that you can mention and how your work has changed because of them?

[Dr. Cheryl Gonzalez Ziegler]

Yes. I would say the biggest thing that's changed are screens, the Internet, social media. That's not something we ever contended with. So everybody says this. Think back right when you were. The one thing that hasn't changed is the curiosity. Curiosity in kids. Kids are curious. They have questions about everything. And when their bodies start to develop and change, they certainly have questions. So what did kids in the 80s do? They snuck around Tried to find a Playboy magazine, right? Open that up. Looked or I remember like, listen, having VHS's of like Richard Pryor and hearing his dirty jokes. Like there's always that little curiosity, right? But that was like the most devious thing I could do. Now massive change. You just go online, you just go on social media, put in whatever it is you're curious about. How has that affected kids? I think that, you know, Jonathan Haidt's anxious generation has definitely shined a light on all of this with teens. I think what I'm here to say is I have a whole chapter I'm so proud of that's around the young end of kids. We have to teach them digital citizenship. We have to teach them when they're curious where to go, what's a good source, what's a deep fake, what is a parasocial relationship.

[David Fuerst]

We don't just have to teach kids this.

[Dr. Cheryl Gonzalez Ziegler]

Oh yes, right. Adults as well. And so it's funny because in the screens chapter of the book, I do I'll say the term, let's say artificial intelligence. And I'll say what parents need to know. It's a short paragraph, how to teach your kids about it. And it's a different paragraph and it's the same information but in a kid friendly way. Now all of a sudden, that's your mandate. That's the biggest thing that's changed. Their curiosities now can be answered or viewed on anything around the world. And that's actually very frightening.

[David Fuerst]

And so much we could go on there talking about deep fakes, all kinds of misinformation, very, very targeted advertising, filters, time management, cyberbullying, how we manage this.

[Dr. Cheryl Gonzalez Ziegler]

Very difficult, very, very challenging. And as you can imagine, when you think about the brain development of a 6 to 12 year old, their prefrontal cortex is at a third to a halfway developed. They're not even close. So they're impressionable, they're overwhelmed. Kids talk to me about political issues, they talk to me about climate issues, they talk to me about things that you just, you feel heartbreak because you're like, wait, you're not supposed to be stressed about these things. But they are so inundated with media. So for any parent who thinks right now, oh no, not my kid, we don't have the news on and they're not on social media. YouTube is the first social media app a kid will go on. So we have two year olds, I mean, we have two year olds that can navigate YouTube better than us to.

[David Fuerst]

See the train videos or whatever, right?

[Dr. Cheryl Gonzalez Ziegler]

And it starts off again seeming very innocent. And before you know it, they become older again. One show leads to the other, that's done on purpose. And all of a sudden they're hearing about and it starts like this. You know, the polar bears, homes are melting away. It starts off like that and a kid will come home and they'll be really sad and and then it just goes from there. And now they've got adult kinds of anxieties weighing on them. And that's why we see depression and anxiety on the rise.

[David Fuerst]

We are obviously just scratching the surface here. We can read much more about this in the new book. It is called the Crucial the Essential Guide to Mental Health and Modern Puberty in middle childhood, ages 6 to 12. Speaking with psychologist Dr. Cheryl Gonzalez Ziegler, thank you for joining us today.

[Dr. Cheryl Gonzalez Ziegler]

Thank you so much for having me. NYC now delivers the most up to date local news from WNYC and Gothamist every morning, midday and evening with three updates a day. Listeners get breaking news, top headlines and in depth coverage from across New York City. By sponsoring programming like NYC now. You'll reach our community of dedicated listeners with premium messaging and an uncluttered audio experience. Visit sponsorship.wnyc.org to get in touch and find out more.