Kevin (3:01)

Thank you.

Rachel Cusick (3:02)

Thanks.

Alison Stewart (3:03)

The series is called Swimming with Shadows. That series pulling back the veil on the mystery of sharks, sometimes threatening mystery listeners. Do you have shark stories? We want to hear them. Have you seen a shark up close. How do you feel about sharks? You can call us, you can text us. 2124-3396-9221-2433. WNYC. We're on all the socials at all of it. WNYC as well. All right, let's just start with Jaws. Why not? It is the 50th anniversary. We heard the music. So to both of you. And Rachel, I'll start with you first. That's that show. That movie spawned a whole bunch of ideas about sharks and a whole bunch of lore about sharks. I'm assuming you saw the movie.

Kevin (3:52)

Yes, I did.

Alison Stewart (3:53)

Okay, so what can you recall the first time you saw it and what you thought about it?

Kevin (3:57)

I actually only saw it for the first time this year once we started working on the series. And I was so shocked because I had that song inside me. Like, I could remember listening, like, singing it as a kid in a swimming pool. And so it felt deep inside me. But watching it, I was really amazed at what a beautiful movie it was, how it held up all these years later and. And also how not terrifying that shark was. Cause it just looked so fake.

Alison Stewart (4:22)

Well, I can tell you, as someone who was a very tiny tot when that came out. Not in the theaters, but I saw it with my grandmother at home on television. My grandmother literally fell off the couch. She like, screamed. I remember that. I can picture it to this day. She just, like her whole butt just fell onto the floor and she was terrified.

Rachel Cusick (4:45)

I love that.

Alison Stewart (4:46)

So, all right, Pat, recollections about how you felt the first time.

Rachel Cusick (4:52)

Yeah, I like Rachel. I'm in my early 40s. I didn't see it as a kid. I don't remember seeing it until we started working on this. But similarly, I think a lot of the feelings and ideas about sharks that were sparked and kind of injected into our culture by that movie ended up in me somehow too. And so it was really fun to get to watch the movie knowing that we were embarking on this attempt to tell a different story about sharks. And. Yeah, and it's been very fun to sort of find those stories in the wake of watching the movie.

Alison Stewart (5:31)

Well, not to, like, hone in on the movie for too long, but, you know, Rachel, it was at the time. I mean, we can make jokes about it not being scary now, but at the time, it was a pretty big movie making feat to do that. I don't know if that's why it resonates with people, you know, in an older generation versus younger people, but it does still resonate with younger people. So is it just that fear of the unknown, like the story of the fear of the unknown?

Kevin (6:04)

Yeah, I think. Yeah, I think that's a timeless tale. Yeah. But I also think there was just something. There was such a human story alongside the shark story, and there's just something so captivating about watching this person kind of wrestle with their own fear that I think we just kind of resonate with, like, the shark. I think Pat would. Would agree. Maybe it's just like we've. The shark almost feels like not even the main character of this story. It's like the people who are trying to conquer the shark. And so. So much of what we were excited to do for. For our work is. Is to make the shark the protagonist for the first time.

Alison Stewart (6:35)

Yeah. Pat, when do you think that the sort of nightmare fuel of shark's first kind of. Has it always been in our consciousness that. That there are something. They are a creature to be feared, or is there, like, a pinpoint in history? We could say, you know what this is when, you know, the tide really not to, like, get too punny.

Kevin (7:00)

There's a lot of ocean puns that I can drop for you.

Alison Stewart (7:03)

Is that, like, is there a moment when sort of the collective consciousness said, be scared?

Rachel Cusick (7:11)

Yeah. Well, we get into this a little bit in the series, but, you know, I. I think Jaws did really, like, make fear of sharks mainstream. But we talked to a researcher in Massachusetts named Greg Schomall, who has studied this a lot and studies white sharks and sort of the culture around white sharks. And he explained that the fear of sharks really sort of increased in the years after World War II, at least in America. And before that, you know, in sort of his opinion, people, you know, didn't see sharks very much. There weren't that many stories of sharks around, but there were, you know, some famous shipwrecks and, you know, ships that were sunk and stories came back of the sailors being eaten by sharks. And, you know, one of which is famously told in that monologue in Jaws, and that's a story that really happened, and I think that. That, you know, sort of was percolating, and it coincided with two other things, which are, like, the increase in recreational fishing. More and more people were getting out in the water, going fishing, particularly in, like, populated centers like the Northeast, and people were encountering more and more sharks and finding sharks and catching sharks and. And then by the early 60s, we started seeing underwater photography coming out for the first time. Underwater films, like some films that were made in part by Rodney Fox, who's the guy that you heard in the clip that you played earlier, but also Jacques Cousteau's films. And so there was. It was kind of this moment where a lot of stuff was coming together. People were starting to have more of a sense of the underwater world even just as a place that existed. And into that Jaws appeared. And it kind of like exploded all of that into this, you know, into this huge terror.

Alison Stewart (9:10)

To your point about recreational fishing, I want to bring Kevin into the conversation. Kevin in Denver. Good afternoon, Kevin.

Chris (9:18)

Hey. Hey, how you doing?

Alison Stewart (9:20)

All right.

Chris (9:21)

Years, probably in the 90s, 80s and 90s, I was with a bunch of guys on the Paquonic, you know, North. Yeah, you know, where it is, Long Island. And we were just like, you know, catching bluefish and whatever. And I hooked the shark, a baby shark, you know, and it was like, it was like an incredible fight. And when I brought the thing up, I could actually hold this little baby shark in like the palm of my hand. And it was just like so intense and muscular, and it was like. It was like a miniature, but it looked like the shark from Jaws. And it was just like, you know, opened its mouth, you know, to remove the hook and whatnot. And it was just like it looked like the full grown, 40, 60 foot shark, but it was like, you know, 4 inches long. You know what I mean? It was just like the most incredible, intense thing that hopefully an image I'll never forget and just catch and release, you know, put it back in and hopefully that guy is still. Or Gal is still swimming around today.

Alison Stewart (10:35)

Awesome story. Thanks, Kevin. Okay, Rachel, that's pretty great. That's a pretty great story. Of course, you can hear from Kevin. He said it looks just like the shark in Jaws, right? It is a touchstone for a lot of people, even to your point, that may not have seen the movie. So I wonder, Pat, why is now this 50th anniversary of the movie the right time to do a whole series on sharks? Is it just. It's not just because there's this happening? Is there some other sort of movement in the zeitgeist that you wanted to address? Or is it just like, hey, let's talk about sharks?

Rachel Cusick (11:15)

Well, I think for us, we're always like, most of the projects that we do are always sparked by just someone on the staff or someone sort of in our orbit. Rachel is former staffer and someone just being curious about something, someone getting excited about some big questions or some corner of the world that they don't know that much about. And then we usually sort of work our way towards the deeper meaning. It's kind of a great privilege of the job that we don't really have to. We're not looking and seeing like, well, what's the most important thing now? We're just looking for something that someone is fired up and passionate about. And in this case, it obviously like, connected to the Jaws moment. But I think as we reported our way into it more and more, and I think Rachel can speak to this as well, we did find that it is an interesting moment for sharks. Like 50 years after this movie sort of turned so many millions of people against them. You see a lot of things. You know, a lot of things have changed. I mean, a lot of things. You know, there are a lot of things about the world of sharks that are very dire for them. You know, so like millions and millions of sharks are being pulled out of the oceans every year. But you also see more and more conservation efforts. You see tons of scientists who were actually like whole generation of scientists who were, or maybe now at this point, two generations of scientists who were inspired by the movie. That scientist Greg Sco I mentioned in Massachusetts, who's probably one of the leading white shark researchers in the world, became a white shark researcher because he saw Jaws and wanted to become Matt Hooper. And then also another person we spoke with, Jada elcock, who's a PhD student in woods Hole, mentioned multiple people that she works with. And she's an early career scientist who similarly saw the movie and didn't think scary, scary. They thought like, oh, my gosh, I want to get in there and understand that animal. And so you now see all of these people kind of taking the story over and bringing it in all these different directions, which makes it an exciting time, I think, to talk about sharks.

Alison Stewart (13:28)

And we want to hear your shark stories listeners. You can let us know if you've seen a shark up close, how you felt. Are you afraid of sharks? Are you a shark fan? Do you have shark questions? You can call us. You can text us at 2124-339692-12433, 9692. We're talking with Rachel Cusick and Pat Walters about the new Radio Lab series Swimming With Shadows. We got a couple texts here, you guys. Gabrielle says Jaws saw the movie as a 12 year old with my grandfather. I was so scared that I thought my grandfather was going to be scared and that he would have a heart attack. I love these stories. Another text. My husband and I realized recently that we went to see Jaws on one of our first dates, we just so happened to also be at the beach. I was terrified and didn't go back into the water. Another text here. What's the story with Megalodon and the prehistoric shark that was supposedly one of the largest creatures on Earth? There's been a lot of social media about it saying it may exist somewhere hidden. This sounds like Loch Ness monster kind of territory. That it may exist somewhere hidden from human view. We'll get to that in a second. But first, I want to get back to Rodney and talk a little bit more specifically about the series here, you guys, because first of all, I want to know who found Rodney, and I think it was you. Yes. Because I'll tell you what, I could listen to that guy talk all day.

Kevin (15:02)

Oh, my God, you and me. And I think the whole team would just press repeat on him talking. It's just a mesmerizing message.

Alison Stewart (15:09)

I mean, if there is somebody who understands the art of storytelling, it's Rodney.

Kevin (15:13)

Oh, my gosh. Yeah.

Alison Stewart (15:14)

Can you imagine a couple beers with Rodney and you like.

Kevin (15:17)

I wanted them cut me off, but I would love to just sit and hear him talk all day.

Alison Stewart (15:21)

Okay, so how did you meet Rodney?

Kevin (15:23)

So we. We realized we were going to be doing this collection of stories. And pretty early on, I was like, I gotta see a shark myself. And I just started looking around. I live in Australia now. I live in Sydney. And I just looked around in Australia where I could go. I didn't even realize I was gonna go cage diving at that point. I was just like, swimming with sharks. Da, da, da, da. And then I find their website, and it's just like this little bio on the back of the website just describes Rodney and his personal story and how he was one of the first people to have come up with this idea for a shark cage. And I just couldn't believe it, that this person that has a shark attack then becomes someone that wants to go spend more time with these sharks and has this whole business that introduces a lot of people to this experience in a beautiful way, not to terrorize them. And as I saw that, I was like, I gotta get on a plane and visit this man. Yeah, yeah.

Alison Stewart (16:15)

We'll hear a little bit more here from Rodney in a second. But first, I want to bring Chris in New Jersey into the conversation. Hi, Chris.

Sherry (16:23)

Hello.

Alison Stewart (16:26)

You have a shark story?

Sherry (16:28)

I do. I am an avid scuba diver, and I was telling your screener that my favorite shark that I have encountered in the ocean was in Egypt, and it was Hammerheads. We were diving off basically the middle of Egypt and we run into silky sharks, the hammerheads, I mean, all kinds of sharks. And the thing I'd like to tell your listeners is that as any good diver knows, sharks are an amazing thing to see. They do not want to eat people. And they're beautiful. They're just absolutely beautiful.

Alison Stewart (17:02)

Hmm. Rachel, is it something that you. This is something that I've. I don't know how I learned this fact or even if it's true that, you know, just kind of pivoting. Oh, and by the way, thanks, Chris. Sorry, meant to say thanks. Pivoting off. What Chris said about they don't want to eat you. Is there truth to the fact that they. They're just kind of like quote unquote, nibbling you to like, see what you are?

Kevin (17:32)

Yeah, so. So most bites that happen on humans, it's kind of like an inspection bite. Like they don't know what they're going for. They think it's another animal. And pretty much as soon, in most cases, as soon as they get a taste or a texture bite, they don't want more. So they kind of do a bite and then they swim away. So. So it's. It's a terrifying prospect. It's like a real thing that happens around the world, but they really don't want us. Yeah, they're like, yuck.

Alison Stewart (17:55)

Right. All right, got it. Let. Now I promised. I've been teasing Rodney here, so let's go back and little bit more of Rodney's story.

Pat Walters (18:02)

The shark seemed to let me go and I fell out of its mouth where my chest was in its teeth and I instinctively pushed it away. And then I realized I'm still holding my breath 60ft underwater and I'm gonna drown. So I headed straight up towards the sur.

Kevin (18:33)

Rodney makes it to the top, takes a huge gasp of air.

Pat Walters (18:37)

But then I looked down and there through pink water, which I realized was my blood, there was this great big head, these big white teeth coming with the mouth wide open straight towards me.

Kevin (18:54)

And just before the shark got to him, bang and thrash it turned, grabbed these fish Rodney had tied to his belt and dragged Rodney back down deeper, deeper and deeper.

Pat Walters (19:08)

And then a miracle happened. The line snapped.

Alison Stewart (19:15)

Rachel, that was your voice there along with Rodney. So I'm going to ask you sort of, I'm assuming, and you said, you know, you spent quite a bit of time with him. How did he. I mean, like, I was just lost there for a second. How did his. His view of Shar? How has his view of sharks changed over time.

Kevin (19:39)

Yeah. So immediately after the attack, he honestly didn't even blame the shark all that much. Like everyone around him, they said back in the day there was an expression, the best shark is a dead shark. Everybody wanted to kill whatever shark there was that got him. And people hated sharks. But he had spent so much time in the ocean, he never really blamed the shark in the first place. He was afraid, but he didn't think it was this mindless eating machine, the way that Jaws portrays them. But then as soon as he gets out of the hospital, he decides he wants to go back into the ocean. And he has this kind of battle with himself because he wants to be there, but his body just kind of remembers the fear of it. And he just describes, like, going down in the ocean for the first time. And all the little reflections of water that the sun was sending down just looked like little sharks to him. And he kept seeing these sharks coming for him.

Alison Stewart (20:26)

Trauma, Much trauma.

Kevin (20:28)

Exactly. It just. Yeah, he really wanted to be there, but he just kind of couldn't get himself around it. But then he had this moment where he decides, like, maybe I can protect myself, like, maybe I can shoot sharks. Because he was this beer fisherman. And he realized, like, it wasn't actually those sharks that he wanted to kill. It was just the idea of something lurking behind him that scared him the most. So his way of getting around that was just to sink himself down in a cage and stare at a shark because he wanted to get this thing out of his mind and just put it in front of him.

Alison Stewart (20:58)

We have more texts, not surprisingly, here, Pat, about Jaws. I also want to add to the shark discussion. I saw Jaws when I was a student in Paris in a nearly empty, huge Parisian movie theater. And when the shark came out of the water, I jumped back in my seat. It also made me afraid to go to Amityville, Long island, which is where I think it was supposed to have taken place. Another text. Summer 1975. My first viewing of the movie, it was in a sold out theater. Lots of sold out theaters here, except for the seat right next to mine. At some point, I twisted myself up into a pretzel so I could put my feet on the seat to protect them from any sharks that might be cruising around the the floor. I was 19, usually overflowing with common sense, but not that night. All right, yes, listeners, we're talking about sharks. We're going to come back to this conversation in just a minute. I'm Tiffany Hansen in for Alison Stewart. Don't go anywhere. This is all of it. I'm Tiffany Hansen in for Alison Stewart, and we are talking about the Radiolab series. A few of the episodes are out now. Right, Rachel? Okay. The series called Swimming With Shadows. We're talking with producer Rachel Cusick and editor Pat Walters. And we're talking with you as well, listeners. Do you have shark stories, shark questions? 2124-3396-9221-2433, 9692. Let's talk with Sherry in Inwood. Hi, Sherry.

Kristen (22:32)

Hi. My parents took us to see Jaws as good report guard gift. My brother and I made a request. We went on a dinner, but not like, you know, like a formal dinner in a restaurant. We wanted McDonald's or Burger King or something like that, which my parents very rarely did because they didn't approve of fast food. And we wanted to go see a movie. And they said, what movie do you want to see? And we said, jaws. And I could see them gulp. But they took us anyway. My brother is younger than me. I'm 66. He's gonna turn 65 this year. And we still talk about the experience.

Alison Stewart (23:17)

You had a different reaction. You had a different reaction.

Kristen (23:20)

Oh, I did. Brian's reaction, for the most part, was he was cheering for the shark. And my reaction was screaming, sobbing and clutching onto my dad's arm. It's wonder he didn't get gang green. I just was latched on to him.

Alison Stewart (23:40)

Love it.

Kristen (23:42)

And at one point he looked at me and said, baby, do you want me to take you out of the theater? And I said, no, no. But it was, I still remember it. And the feeling. And it's like, and yeah, now I see it now on tv. And it's like, damn, that's a fake shark.

Alison Stewart (24:01)

Sherry, much for the recollection. We appreciate it. So, Pat, you know, in this first episode of the series, biologists tell us that human babies are actually afraid of spiders and of snakes, but not of sharks. What do we make of that?

Rachel Cusick (24:22)

Well, I think like the scientists we spoke with, Chris Lowe explained that, you know, we just don't naturally have a lot of encounters with sharks. I mean, even people who live by the ocean, you know, you just barely see them. Maybe you see a fin once in your life when you're out on a boat or if you're fishing, you know, like the caller said before, you sort of accidentally catch a shark. But it's, they're just not part of our world, which is obviously part of what makes them so frightening. But also I think what Makes them so interesting and still mysterious and still this creature that we have so, so much to learn about. So, yeah, I think it's just that it's that distance, them being, you know, ocean creatures and us mostly living on the land.

Alison Stewart (25:08)

Rachel, I want to go back. I'm obsessed with Rodney. I'm obsessed with Rodney. What can we learn from his experience?

Kevin (25:18)

Yeah, I think to me, the big takeaway of his story is just these things that we build up in our mind, they just get bigger and bigger and bigger the more they stay in the darkness and we let them kind of loom over us. And he is such a lesson in just kind of turning and facing those things. Like, I think you would say he's still not totally afraid. You know, he doesn't want to be like BFFs with the Sharks, like just no cage. I think he understands that there are some real threats, but just kind of filling in this full picture rather than just taking an outline of something that feels terrifying and closing the book and calling it a day and saying goodbye to this thing he loved so much, which I know is really hard. Depends on, like, what the thing is that you're afraid of. But, yeah, he's just such a testament to just kind of taking in these things, even if they're a little uncomfortable, because there's so much beauty within that discomfort sometimes.

Alison Stewart (26:12)

So taking one for the team. You went down in a cage?

Kevin (26:16)

I did, I did.

Alison Stewart (26:18)

So let's hear about it.

Kevin (26:19)

Yeah. So after I visited Rodney, I went on his boat to this place called the Neptune Islands, which is kind of this great white shark hotspot in South Australia. And it was a fascinating four days. I spent four days on this boat with people from all over the world and it was their life dream to see this shark. It was kind of mind boggling to me that like every other group of people I've been in, they were terrified for me, they could say. They said they couldn't imagine doing something like that. And these were people that, like, all they wanted to do was sea sharks. All they wanted to think about were the teeth and, like the predation, the majesty of how scary they are. Knocked their socks off, like they couldn't get enough of it. And there was just this whole cast of characters that went down in the cages with me and we just spent hours looking for the fins and it was just a beautiful experience. It really changed my own perception of white sharks because I'd spoken to Rodney, but I think I needed to just see. A lot of people love these Creatures.

Alison Stewart (27:17)

Yeah. Pat, I want to go back. I'm looking, scrolling through here. Here it is. We had that text from someone talking about the prehistoric Megalodon, that sort of, like, notion that it might exist somewhere, but sharks in reality. Sharks have been on this planet, from what we understand, for hundreds of millions of years. When you think about that immense, immense history, what sort of a perspective does it put on how you think about them and how you approach them for the series?

Rachel Cusick (27:55)

It's just. I mean, honestly, it's sort of like when you approach. It's like it's an extreme version of when you approach anything that's been around for a very long time. I mean, sharks have been here longer than trees have been or the continents in their current form.

Alison Stewart (28:11)

Well, yeah, and if I. If I'm to believe. Google AI. They were here before. They were here before the North Star.

Kevin (28:19)

And the rings of Saturn.

Rachel Cusick (28:23)

Yeah, no, it's. It's really amazing. I mean, and I mean, Rachel interviewed a paleontologist who, you know, sort of really has gone deep on this. So I don't know if you want to add anything else to.

Kevin (28:32)

I love. I love this topic. I think it's the most fascinating part. Like, I just think we associate these creatures with death, and they are just these ultimate survivors and livers in our world, and they've overcome so much to get to where we are. Like, there's this fascinating series of things that they have tackled just to become these creatures that we see as the enemies. And I just look at them and I don't know, I think about that caller who said that the brother was rooting for the shark. And after hearing about all this, I was like, yes, go sharks. They're just amazing. Like, they just, like, just in terms of Megalodon, they got as big as Megalodon did because they were kind of one upping each other with whales. Like, whales left land, came back into the water, and these two creatures just kept getting bigger and bigger to outdo each other for prey until we got Megalodon, which is the biggest, One of the biggest predators that Earth has ever seen. And it was all just because of battle with whales. Exactly. John Long, our paleontologist, would point out that we probably would have seen the Megalodon if it was still out there.

Alison Stewart (29:32)

So I was gonna say, can we put the lid on that?

Kevin (29:35)

Yeah, I think. Yeah, I think we. I don't think it's true, but we could dream.

Alison Stewart (29:40)

Let's see. We got, you know, we can't get off jaws here, and I love It. I love it. We have a text here. I was a mother's helper, AKA a nanny, on Martha's Vineyard, the summer Jaws was being filmed. There are lots of extras running from the water to the beach. It was shark mania. Even seeing the mechanical shark didn't break the spell. We do have a mythology around sharks. Is the hope, Pat, do you think, to dispel some of the negative aspects of that mythology? Or is there a. Do you come with an agenda for this series?

Rachel Cusick (30:22)

Yeah, I mean, I think our agenda is, again, mainly the agenda we always have as a show, which is just curiosity. We're just here to ask questions and. And try to explore all the complexity of the world more deeply. And I feel like we oftentimes gravitate towards topics where a character or an animal, in this case have been kind of flattened into something that seems simple, that it's a monster, that it's terrifying, that it's going to eat you, because there's so much space for us to break that open and find all of the amazing things that sort of lie behind that seeming simplicity. And, yeah, so I think that's our main agenda. But of course, I mean, you know, they are not. They're not what we thought they were. And so I think we want to show people how beautiful they are. I mean, that's just something that kept coming up over and over again. Whether a scientist, you know, was talking about the ecology of sharks or Rodney, you know, this man who was attacked by a shark, talking about what it's like to encounter one up close, or even the scientists we interviewed who are studying shark antibodies, there was just. There was so much. So much focus on beauty and wonder. And I think that that's a big thing that I think we're trying to show people in the series.

Alison Stewart (31:51)

Another thing that you point out in this series, not you personally, but that is pointed out. I'll use the sort of. The royal that is pointed out is that a person is 10 times more likely to be bitten by a New Yorker than a shark. So I have two things. One is that I think that my odds of being bitten by a New Yorker might be higher than you think. Two, I don't know how you got that number, but I assume that. But what you're pointing out is that the odds are pretty low.

Kevin (32:25)

Yeah, no, we actually went out and we just had people biting all around New York City.

Rachel Cusick (32:31)

I feel like it's important for Rachel to point out that she is a New Yorker.

Kevin (32:35)

And I've been bitten by many, many of My siblings. Many a times I feel like I can't even count the bites. But, yeah, so there's this thing called the International Shark Attack File that tracks all of the shark bites and shark deaths every year, and they have this whole list of things that actually kill you and harm you more than sharks, and that's. That. That's where that came from.

Alison Stewart (32:56)

Let's talk with Kristen in the Cayman Islands. Hi, Kristen.

I (33:03)

Hi. Thanks so much for taking my call. I just wanted to add very quickly, we snorkel all the time here, and it's very common to come across nurse sharks, which are just wonderfully docile and beautiful. And I just wanted to add, like, they're just so wonderful. And I'm so glad that we're having this conversation.

Alison Stewart (33:21)

Thank you, Kristen. Appreciate the call. Wish we were all in the Cayman Islands with you, but here we are. So, yes, Kristen may be able to tell the difference between a nurse shark and some other shark. Most people who are swimming in the Rockaways are not going to take the time to notice what kind of shark they're next to. And so the advice still really is just to, like, go out on this fact. The advice is, right. Do not approach. Get out of the water.

Kevin (33:53)

Yes, exactly. Yeah. Follow. Follow lifeguard's instructions and just get out of the water if you see a fin. And. And they really don't want to hurt you.

Alison Stewart (34:00)

Right. All right, Pat, so then just tell us. There are two episodes out now and more episodes coming this week. So. So, you know, tell us what the episode schedule is, how folks can find it, all of that stuff.

Rachel Cusick (34:12)

Yeah, there's three episodes out now, the first three days. The third day came out this morning. Two more after that. You can listen wherever you find podcasts, just look up Radiolab or go to Radiolab.org sharks and, yeah, I think just, you know, stay curious. I will. Just. Last thing I'll say is there was a huge shark just spotted a few weeks ago in the pond on Block island that went all over the Internet, and it looked just like the scene from Jaws, but it was a basking shark, which is a totally harmless shark. And I just think, like, follow the advice of the lifeguards, but also, just, like, stay curious. There's so many kinds of sharks out there, and we hope you listen.

Alison Stewart (34:54)

I think I'll just stay curious from right here. I think that's where I will stay curious. All right. We've been talking with series producer Rachel Cusick, editor Pat Walters. The Radio Lab series is called Swimming With Shadows. Thanks to both of you.

Kevin (35:07)

Thank you.

Rachel Cusick (35:08)

Thank you.

Tiffany Hansen (35:09)

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