Host 1 (3:34)

I was listening to your podcast, and.

Alison Stewart (3:36)

I was curious, why did the story that she gave that she was from an established Irish family, why did that seem palpable to you at the time?

Jonathan Walton (3:47)

Oh, well, it has a lot to do with two of the red flags I write about in the book Anatomy of a Con Artist. Stories from faraway places. Professional con artists like to snow you with stories from faraway places. Why? Because they're hard to confirm. They're hard to prove true or false. And human nature being what it is, and con artists are experts at using our human nature against us. If we can't prove something's false, we're just likely to accept it as fact. So she had a lot of stories from faraway places. She was from Ireland. She was, at one point Irish royalty. I knew so little about Ireland at the time. She had. She had props. She had a framed Irish constitution, which parchment paper and all hanging on her wall. And she'd point to the bottom and say, that signature there, that's my great, great grandfather, you know, the founder of Ireland. Like, I was so impressed. The other thing she used on me, with great effect, and this is something every con artist uses today, and I write about it. It's the red flag of technology. Someone is using digital screens vis a vis their cell phone, their laptop, their iPad, their device to sell you stories to back up what they're saying. Be suspicious. She did this all the time. She created and breathed life into a cast of characters that did not exist yet. They were texting her. She would show me the texts and the emails from her barristers in Ireland, from her cousins Finton and Tristan and Dermot. God, these Irish names, like, these people were real to me because I saw they were texting her. But lo and behold, any Idiots can start a Google account and text themselves as another character. This is what professional con artists do, you know? So, yeah, she was good at creating this life. And I just bought it hook, line, and sinker because I didn't know professional con artists exist. I always thought I could never get conned. You know, when the guy walks up to you at 7:11 with a crazy story asking for 20 bucks, or someone calls you on the phone claiming to be from the irs, I can spot those people. I could never get con, but con artists like Marianne Smith, the woman who scammed me, they're everywhere. There are millions of them. And it took her four years to scam me out of close to $100,000. And while she was scamming me, she was scamming dozens of other people, dozens of other aliases. She worked as a psych, a psychologist. She had like a dozen clients in Los Angeles at the same time she was scamming me. It's. It's crazy, but these people exist, and no one's talking about it.

Host 1 (6:20)

When did you start to realize something was off?

Jonathan Walton (6:25)

Not until four years in, when I caught her in the first lie. And, you know, I write about this in the book, lies are like rats. When you spot one, it means there are a thousand others hiding. So I caught her in the first lie and quickly started unraveling lie after lie after lie after lie. And I confronted her, and she denied it. And, you know, I went to police, and they turned me away. They. They told me. They literally tell me. They told me it's not a crime because you gave her the money. Which made no sense to me, because like every scam, every crime, Bernie Madoff, you know, even when you hold up a convenience store at gunpoint, they give the money. Like, how is that a barrier for entry? But in investigating hundreds and hundreds of con cases over the past eight years, I've come to learn that is a very common thing. Police turn victims of scams away 90% of the time because it's. They're busy. You know, they got murders and rapes and people are bleeding. And on the totem pole of importance, you are down at the bottom. If you come in there crying, I've been scammed. Especially if you are not ready, you know, to present your case. You gotta. You know, pitching a criminal case to police is a lot like pitching a television show to a network executive. You gotta make it sexy.

Host 1 (7:42)

Queen of the Con podcast creator. Podcast creator Jonathan Walton has a new book out called Anatomy of a con artist. The 14 red flags to spot scammers, grifters, and thieves. He breaks down all the warning signs of a con drawn from his own experiences and investigations. Oh, we got a couple on our board. Let's take a call. Jonathan, this is Eisha in Brooklyn. Hi, Eisha, thank you for making the time to call. All of it. What is your story?

Eisha (8:11)

Hi. Yeah, so I work with children. I'm a children's librarian. I'm trying to make this as quick as possible. And I got a phone call one day when I was on vacation from a young woman who said her daughter's teacher had given her my number as, like, an excellent librarian to kind of help her with her daughter's reading issues. And I was like, okay, that's odd, but possible. And she's like. She said, I'm under so much stress. Can you help me? And I said, look, I'm not at work right now, but, you know, if you go into the library, I'm sure someone can help you or I can help you when I get back from vacation. Oh, where are you in vacation? I'm in California. Oh, is that where you're from? No, no, I'm not from there. I'm from New Jersey. You know, maybe New Jersey has a better educational system. Maybe I should move there. What town did you grow up in?

Jonathan Walton (9:00)

And.

Eisha (9:01)

And I still did it. I'm so stupid. I realized. But, like, I still didn't realize. I just thought she was just being inappropriate, but that she was just didn't know the right way to talk to, like, you know, a professional, like. So I just said, you know, I can't really share that with you right now, but, like, I'm sure I'm very happy to talk to you when I get back. And then we got off the phone because. And, you know, she had asked, like, oh, where did you go to school? You know, like, maybe I should enroll my daughter in that school. Like, it sounds like it's a really great school. And. And then half an hour later, American Express called me and said, have you been making these charges in Brooklyn? And I said, no. And they said, yeah, we think that your. Your new credit card got stolen.

Host 1 (9:45)

Thank you for sharing that story. What red flag does that fall under? Someone trying to get your personal information?

Jonathan Walton (9:53)

Yeah, I mean, I heard a bunch of red flags. You know, one of the red flags I write about. Very effective tool, as we just witnessed. It's called drama. Drama. Drama scammers will invent a lot of drama to throw you off your game and to make you think there is an Emergency when there is not an emergency. And it also dovetails with another red flag. I write about the red flag of scarcity. There's this. This idea they present and they pay forward that we're running out of time. We got to do this quickly, and I'm in a bind. And can you help? You know, and I want to correct the caller on one thing that struck me. She said, quote, I am so stupid. You are not stupid, lady. You're a good, kind, decent woman. And, you know, these people are taking advantage of your kindness. And I say this in the book again and again and again, and everyone needs to understand it is how con artists operate. Con artists don't outsmart you. They're not smarter than you. Con artists out feel you. They use your emotion to scam you. Because when you're making decisions based on emotion with your heart and not your head, you're going to get scammed. And that's their job. That woman's job, the scammer, when she called, she was trying to throw you off. She's presenting the drama. She's presenting the scarcity. She wants you to help her. Other than people offering to help decent people like me and you and the caller, we love to help other people if we can as well, you know, so, no, you're not stupid. These people are everywhere. You just need to pay attention to the red flags they're waving because they're obvious when I point them out. Now, the next time somebody gets a call with some crazy, dramatic situation out of the gate, you know, take a step back. How many other red flags is this person waving at me?

Alison Stewart (11:33)

Let's talk to Victor from Forest Hills. Hi, Victor. Thanks for making the time to call, all of it.

Victor (11:39)

Hi, thanks for taking my call. Yeah, I was just that this happened two days ago. I was at home with my partner, and she got a phone call. We're going on a cruise in December, and she got a phone call from supposedly the cruise line, saying, hey, you know, you have to pay in full. You haven't paid in full yet. Your reservation is getting canceled, whatever. So she's like, you know, she starts scrambling, trying to figure it out.

Jonathan Walton (12:03)

She was on speakerphone.

Victor (12:04)

So I heard the guy, he was very like, nice sounding professional, trying to be helpful, trying to help, like, hook us up a little bit with free WI Fi or whatever. And, you know, she's talking to him. His name is Valerian. She's like, larry and this, Valerian that. And then, like, he drops his last name. It's Valerian Steel. And I'm sitting there thinking, wow, that sounds like Game of Thrones. Okay. And she hangs up on him, like, after they figure it all out. And I'm like, are you sure that was real? That guy sounds like, you know, he's kind of, like, making it up. Sure enough, she calls her bank and they're like. Or she calls a cruise line. They're like, nothing was canceled. We don't know what you're talking about. She calls her bank and cancels the whole thing. And then he tries to call her back and like, dude, what are you going to say? You know, like, we figured you out anyway. Yeah, that's what happened.

Alison Stewart (12:54)

That's really interesting. That's interesting, too, that. That the scammer called her back. Did they show? Did they have no shame?

Jonathan Walton (13:02)

It's not so much that they have no shame. It's that in their experience, and this is true, the majority of the time, if they have a live one who they consider a live one, someone about to make that decision, they double and triple their efforts. They know there's potential here that they could get something. The other thing I want to point out to everyone listening is, and I write, this is the last chapter in my book, Anatomy of a Con Artist. Our information. The fact that. That Valerian Steel from Game of Thrones. God, that's such a. That was such a fun giveaway. I enjoyed it. The fact that Valerian Steel knew you were going on a cruise is proof of what I'm about to tell everyone listening. Our information, our name, our Social Security number, our address, our date of birth, our mother's maiden name, it is all out there in all of these data leaks that have been happening for the past 20 years. From Social Security to the U.S. navy to Visa and MasterCard and bank of America, all of that information is on the dark web. And scammers broker in it. They buy and sell groups of it. So it's only a matter of time before someone takes your Social Security and applies for a loan or credit card and starts charging up a storm. And here's the thing. When that happens, the onus is 1000% on you, the victim. To clear your name. It takes mountains of paperwork. You might have to hire a lawyer and spend thousands of dollars to get out from under it. So my ardent advice, and I write how to do this in the last chapter of my book, Anatomy of a Con Artist. You need to freeze your credit. It's free. You just log on to the three different credit reporting bureaus. You create an account. It's Free. Don't click on any of the sign up for this service thing. Just go directly to freeze my credit. And when you freeze your credit, no one, not you, not a loved one, not a scammer, no one can get credit in your name. No one can get a loan in your name. And every time if you want to. And this has happened to me a few months ago when I got a new car, you just got to log on, unfreeze your credit, apply for the loan, get the loan approved, then log on again and freeze the credit. Three of the two credit reporting bureaus in the credit freeze will actually allow you to unfreeze for like 48 hours. So they'll freeze it back right after. So everyone listening, freeze your credit. Because what scares me about this last caller and this valerian steel scam is how did he know they were going on a cruise? Right? That info is out there. It's public record almost.

Host 1 (15:37)

The name of the book is Anatomy of a con artist. The 14 red flags to Spot Scammers, Grifters and Thieves.

Alison Stewart (15:43)

My guest is Jonathan Walton.

Host 1 (15:45)

We'll have more after a quick break. This is all of it.

Alison Stewart (15:58)

You are listening to all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. We are talking to the author of Anatomy of a con artist. The 14 red flags to Spot Scammers, Grifters and Thieves. It is by Jonathan Walton. He's also the producer of the podcast Queen of the Con, based on his own experience with a con artist. You write in the first chapter of the book. It's worth noting here, and forgive me if you know this already, that the term con artist is actually short for confidence artist. These people are brilliant at engineering ways to gain your confidence so they can have their way with you and your bank account. How do con artists choose who to go after and what are some strategies they use to gain your trust?

Jonathan Walton (16:45)

Well, they don't really choose anyone. A professional con artist, of which there are more than a million right now in the United States, they go after whoever's around. They're like sharks. They're always feeding, they're always putting out feelers. They're always looking for a situation that they can get in there and get you. And the techniques they use that I outline in the book are, are learned from me investigating hundreds and hundreds of cases. Because after my story went Public Back in 2019, after I got my con artist arrested, charged, convicted, and sentenced to five years behind bars, my story exploded. I was in the New York Times like, and, and people started contacting me Begging for help, telling me I inspired them. So I started helping. Like, you know, some people play golf on the weekends. I hunt con artists. So I started investigating all these cases, and I realized that all the techniques that my con artists used on me are techniques that every con artist is using on every victim. So I started making notes. And that's how I wrote the book about the 14 red flags. And these red flags are very effective. One of the most effective, and this red flag I'm about to mention is what keeps the majority of victims quiet. It's called the red flag. I call it. It's red flag number 13 in the book TMI. Too much information. You meet someone new. Could be a boyfriend, girlfriend, new neighbor, new friend, new coworker. Someone comes into your life, and almost immediately, they start divulging to you their deep, dark secrets. They start trusting you. And that is a very powerful technique because it does two things. Number one, you think to yourself, wow, this person must really trust me and think highly of me. And number two, you think, I can trust them. And remember, we're all good people, essentially. So when someone waves hello, you're going to wave hello. When someone says, hi, how are you? You're going to say, I'm fine. How are you? You know, so if someone starts trusting you with their deep, dark secrets, you're going to feel like, I can trust them with my deep, dark secrets. But here's the thing. Their deep, dark secrets are fake. You're telling them your real secrets, and they're getting close to you quickly. So by the time the con happens and the money exchanges hands, could be weeks later, could be months later, could be years later, as in my case, you do not want to go to police. You don't want to tell anyone, because you know that the con artist knows all your deep, dark secrets. And the last thing you want is for that con artist to be arrested and they tell police what they know about you. Or they. Or it ends up in a. In a court transcript at trial. Like, those things terrify people, so it keeps them quiet. And I hear this again and again from victims who reach out to me for help. They say things like, well, if I go to police, do I have to use my real name? I'm like, that's the least you have to do. You got to use your real name. But listen, the TMI technique, and they know what they're doing, these people, right? These con artists, they know what they can get. Your secrets, they can keep you quiet. And it works like a charm.

Host 1 (19:48)

This Text says, I lived with a con man in college, and it was exactly as your guest described it. We got super close very fast. I thought I was being stalked because he was texting me from a random number. Things like, you look nice today. As I'd leave the apartment, it felt like Gossip Girl, a show we were watching together. He created a bunch of false stories. He said he was J.B. pritzker's son, yet never paid for anything. Unfortunately for him, I didn't have any money, so all he got was my iPad, free food and lodging. He moved on to bigger fish and ended up being charged. Charged with wire fraud. Let's. Yeah, let's talk to Richard from Jersey City. Hi, Richard. Thanks for calling, all of it.

Richard (20:29)

I love your show. Thank you.

Host 1 (20:31)

Thank you.

Richard (20:33)

A couple of years back, someone tried to buy my side yard, which is a separate piece of property, by following up an ad on Zillow. And they were ready to send money to a P.O. box in Texas to pay for my lot without my having known about it. The only way I found out was their lawyer contacted a real estate agent I had used in the past who said, oh, that's not for sale.

Jonathan Walton (21:02)

Wow.

Richard (21:03)

Apparently, this huge scam of vacant property, which is what mine is listed as because there's no one on the property to talk to you or, you know, for you to find out any information. And so these people scan it. And the way that the potential buyer figured out there was a problem was they were too willing to drop the price.

Host 1 (21:28)

Ah, there you go. Let's talk to Janine, who's from the Upper west side. Hi, Jeanine. Tell us your story.

Janine (21:35)

Okay. It's not pretty. I lost a half a million dollars. That was my entire life savings of over 20, 30 years on a combination. And I know, you know, this race pig butchering and a romance scam. And it was basically through Words with Friends, which I want everybody to know that that apparently is a shopping center for potential scammers. They pretend there's some high visibility celebrity, and then they, like, start playing a game of Words with Friends. And this person was like, I'm saying, oh, you know, they contacted me and said, you know, hey, you look real. I think I might know you. And I said, were you in Paris last weekend? I'm like, no. But anyhow, it just went on. So we were just like, I just wanted to be friends, and I didn't want to anything else, just play Words with Friends. But then this person started getting to know me. And over the course of several months, because I'M an idiot now when I look back at it that I didn't like. One of the other things is to try to have you be, don't tell anybody else because I'm a high celebrity person, high visibility person. So I don't want anybody else to know about us. That was one of it. Another one was quite early on and it was weird. And so my alarm bells went up. He's like, you know, do you need money for anything? And I was like, well, you know, my sister, my mother, they're not doing well. And he goes, well, you know, I have these investments that I know about. And then he mentioned a couple other celebrities and said, so if you want to invest in it, I'm going to show you these like fake basically bank statements about how he's getting these great returns on investment. So I was like desperate for my family members so I started investing and then investing more. And apparently that's where the pig butchering thing is, which apparently the FBI says this is. I want everybody to know it's like the fastest growing scam.

Alison Stewart (23:28)

What do you mean when you say pig butcher? Let me stop for a second. When you say pig butchering, what do you mean?

Janine (23:33)

Basically what they do is they start to reel you in like investing money. And this was actually cryptocurrency. And then as you invest they're like, oh, and there's this other opportunity which is even better investment. And so they keep reeling you in. And that's how I went from like, oh, let's like try 10,000 to like 100,000 to like all of my life savings. Now.

Alison Stewart (23:57)

You know what, Janine, I'm going to stop you there. Thank you so much for calling in because this actually relates to your story.

Host 1 (24:02)

Jonathan, about having a famous person involved.

Alison Stewart (24:07)

Your.

Jonathan Walton (24:07)

It does, it relates in so many, so many, so many red flags were waving in this story that I was kind of stunned. But this is how they present. And it's sad that they call it pig butchering because that, that, that you know, kind of victim shames in my opinion. And, and this victim who calls herself stupid again, you're not stupid. You're a trusting, kind person. They're using your human nature against you. That's what they're good at doing. These, you know, so called pig butchering scams are very common and, and one of the techniques they use that I write about in my book Anatomy of a Con Artist, it is the technique of its red flag number eight. It's beak wedding. W E T T I N G Beak wedding they let you wet your beak in a lot of these investment scams that are too good to be true. You are pulled along by the belief that it is true because they will give you a return on your investment. You'll get a couple of payments and you'll think, wow, this is paying off big time. And what do you do? What do most people do in that situation? They put the money back in and they double and triple down. Beak wedding is such an effective technique that con artists used. And the other thing that struck out, that stuck out to me at this, they just wanted to help. Right? That's red flag number one. Hey, you're in financial dire straits. You have family issues, emergencies. Let me help you, let me help you. So the minute someone offers to help, if there are other red flags waving along with that offer to help, you got to be suspicious.

Alison Stewart (25:41)

Let's take this last call.

Host 1 (25:42)

This is Carol calling from Lincoln Towers.

Alison Stewart (25:44)

On the Upper west side. Carol, what happened to you?

Carol (25:49)

This is a scam that has a different approach. It's not someone calling. It was on the computer. And what happened was that suddenly I was using the computer and suddenly there was a loud ringing noise, a horrible noise. And a notice came up on the screen that said, call this number to get rid of the noise. I think anybody would do that because it was really unbearable. And then somebody started talking or called me on the phone and I thanked him for getting rid of the noise, and he sort of drew me into a conversation and started asking me questions like how old I was. Don't mind telling him. But then he started getting into financial questions and I said, I'm not telling you that. And he started cursing at me.

Host 1 (26:54)

That is a lot.

Jonathan Walton (26:55)

Thank.

Host 1 (26:56)

I'm glad you hung up, by the way. I'm so happy to hear that before I let you go, because there's a lot in this book, Anatomy of a Con. How would you. What advice would you give people who believe they are being scammed on dating sites? Because you hear a lot of that.

Jonathan Walton (27:14)

Yeah. And listen, especially with the holidays coming up, dating scams are that much more prevalent. And if you suspect you're being scammed, try and gather as much evidence as you can before you let the scammer know that you know what's going on. Try to get them to repeat either in an email, in a text, on a voice recording, on a video recording, whatever, Try to get them to repeat the scam. Because regardless of what that low level cop will tell you, when you try to file a police report taking money from Someone based on a lie is grand theft or grand larceny. If you can prove it, that is a crime. That is a felony punishable by years in prison. So the trick, you know, before you go to police, you have to present your case. You know, like Vanna White on Wheel of Fortune. You have to have everything ready to go. You have to rehearse your spiel. You can't just go cry boo hoo, I got scammed. And part of the evidence gathering process, if you know a scam is happening, gather evidence, record everything, get proof, because the scammer will never admit it. You know, you're going to have to convince police and then convince a jury that you got scammed. And it is punishable by years in prison. Ask me how I know.

Host 1 (28:23)

How do you know? Where's your scammer?

Jonathan Walton (28:26)

Oh, I got her in prison twice. I got her charged and convicted in my case. Then she got out early because of COVID and I got her extradited because when I started that blog, I got a phone call from a police detective in Northern Ireland. She'd lived there for eight years. She wasn't Irish. She was born in Maine, but lived in Northern Ireland for eight years. And she scammed a bunch of people out of fortunes over there and disappeared. And the cop had no idea where she was until he found my blog. So it took me eight years. Extraditing an American citizen is a. Is a tall order. And I thought it was never going to happen, but I kept in touch and I kept pushing. And every time I found a new scam and a new victim, I would send to this Northern Ireland police detective. And lo and behold, she was arrested last year, flown over to Northern Ireland. And I just got back two weeks ago from the trial in Northern Ireland, where a jury deliberated for 20 minutes, not even 20 minutes, like 18 minutes, and found her guilty on all counts. And sentencing is October 16th.

Host 1 (29:25)

The book is called Anatomy of a con artist. The 14 red flags to Spot Scammers, Grifters, and Thieves. Its author is Jonathan Walton. Jonathan, thank you for sharing all this information.

Jonathan Walton (29:37)

Thank you so much for having me on, Alison. I think it was educational. I think I want to help. You know, if I get my way, we'll stop thousands of these people in their tracks and people will stop getting scammed.

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