A (2:56)

So let's just start at the beginning. Hobie Baker was born in a wealthy suburban Philadelphia in the late 1800s. What kind of situation was he born into?

B (3:06)

Well, it was interesting because he was sort of born adjacent to wealth. His father had a fairly successful upholstery store and business. They started to put leather on the new cars that were being made. But then in 1907, the business crashed pretty hard. So he came from money. He was adjacent to money. But then he had that classic sort of fall from the real high level finances and went off to boarding school in New Hampshire. Right.

A (3:38)

Baker went to St. Paul's which is a boarding school where many kind of what you were saying, adjacent. Many of America's most wealthy families would send their sons for their education. What does St. Paul's provide young Hobie that that's key to his development as an athlete and a person?

B (3:56)

Well, the interesting thing was that St. Paul's was the cradle, is the cradle of hockey in America. They had the first sort of official games. A schoolmaster in the late 1900s, went up to Canada and brought back real parks and brought back real hockey sticks. And they had at that time, before the impacts of climate change, ponds that were frozen over for three to four months of the year. So they had these beautiful, idyllic ponds where they would play hockey. And Hobie was at this sort of cradle of hockey and just stood out as the most, the wonder kid, the most amazing, skillful player they'd ever seen. And all these stories about, you know, he did the 10,000 hours of training, he would skate at the, in the, in the dark so he didn't have to look at the puck. And from a very early age, he stood out at almost every sport, but especially at hockey.

A (4:55)

What was hockey like back then? We're talking about the turn of the century. Right. Or just after. So is hockey a popular sport in America back then?

B (5:03)

It's really just emerging, but it is popular once you get into the early 20th century. So Hobie begins to sort of dominate the prep school scene in the sort of 19 7, 8, 9 period. And then he goes to Princeton University in 1910. And at least by that stage, you know, Ivy League sports, hockey and football are the only game in town. I mean, they are the NFL, the NHL, everybody wrapped into one. So because he's such the standout player in both of those sports, he gets this reputation of being really, you know, he's like Tom Brady and Michael Jordan. And then eventually, like a Pat Tillman sporting war hero, he's sort of all these celebrities wrapped into one.

A (5:51)

So back then, I mean, obviously it was very difficult to find any footage of playing hockey. What was it like for you to make this podcast? Like, where did you go to find out and to characterize the way that Hobie played?

B (6:04)

Well, fortunately, we have a lot of first person accounts and we have a lot of photographs. As you. As you said, there's, unfortunately, there's no footage. And that was the. That's one of the tough things about making a documentary, a visual documentary about Hobie is that we don't have good footage. But what we have are very detailed recollections from his classmates and his friends of how he played. And I should say that my co executive producer, Tim Smith, was the person who originally was looking at the story. He grew up in Princeton and he'd been wrestling with a way to tell this story for decades, really. And then when I moved to Princeton in 2020, because of my focus on LGBTQ representation, he asked me to partner with him. And then we partnered with the fabulous sports producer, Ross Greenberg. And basically what we had to do was sort of do a forensic deep dive into this man's life and try and discover not just what had been written before, but everything that was shedding light upon the layers of his character from other friends and from other experts. And so, I mean, the other helpful thing for us was that he was front page news. Every game he played in was in the New York Times or the Boston Globe or the Canadian press. So we have a lot of first person narratives of how good he was.

A (7:34)

How good was he? Like, what did they write in the New York Times that made you think, wow, this person was really a standout? Like, what kind of language do they use?

B (7:43)

So whenever Hobie was discussed, it was always Hobie Baker and the rest of the Princeton team, they would even put his name on the awnings outside the Sir Nicholas Rink in Manhattan. It was Hobie Baker and the rest. And he actually found this really upsetting. He was so. He was such a non arrogant person that he hated to be called out individually. But, you know, he did a couple of things. He got his trainer to shave down the corners of his skates to make them rounded, which allowed him to be much faster and allowed him to be much swifter and more mobile on the ice, and no one had done it before. And his trainer would, in the middle of games, shave down the sides a little bit more. And that is the standard now for hockey players today. He was also, I mean, he had this ability to skate without looking at the puck, but he also had this amazing speed. He would round his own goal two or three times, building up ahead of speed, and then just cut through the opposition and the crowds would shout, here he comes, Here he comes. And it was like, it was, it was like a moment. You know, he was the one person you watched on the field, on the ice rink, and you know, it's hard to say how he would do in modern sports. I mean, he wasn't violent, he was roughed up all the time. But he, you know, would go in the locker room and shake the opposition's hands even after they, you know, beaten him down with their sticks. But, you know, he was the first American player that the Canadians offered money to, to come and play in Canada. But he was such an amateur and revered amateurism that he would never play for money. But he was offered something like $20,000 in 1914 to play in Canada because he was seen as the greatest American hockey player of his time.

A (9:38)

Wow. Listeners, if you're just joining us, we're talking to Andy Reynolds, who's the executive producer of a new three part podcast from ESPN's 30 for 30. It's called Searching for Hobie Baker. It's out now and it talks about one of the first great hock players in America, Hobie Baker, who a lot is not known about. Andy, you mentioned this idea of guilt, or at least Hobie feeling like he didn't want to be singled out amongst his other players. There's a lot that goes into that. Also with attending Princeton. Hobie goes to Princeton, but it's not without some guilt due to the consequences of the 1907 financial crisis. What happened in 1907? Why does Hobie feel guilty about that?

B (10:24)

So he has an older brother, Thornton, and they're both at St. Paul's together. And the father, Alfred Baker, says to the two boys, I can only send one of you to college. I mean, it's quite modern story. I only have the money now to send one of you to college and it'll be Princeton. Because Alfred went to Princeton and effectively Thornson, the older brother, was the supposed to go. But Thornton knew that Hobie was such a phenomenal that he said, no, you should go, the younger brother should go, I will go and take over the family business. And so Thornton sacrificed his college career for Hobie to go. And Hobie never forgot that and always adored his brother for giving him that opportunity in space. So it was a sort of Sophie's Choice moment for the Father, did you.

A (11:17)

See that affect Hobie when you were researching his character, both in hockey and out for the rest of his life? Like, did that leave a mark on him?

B (11:24)

Well, it's. I. I'm sure it did. I mean, the interesting thing about Hobie was that leaving aside his loves and his, you know, his successes, he was a preternaturally decent, kind, nice person. I mean, one of the things that runs through all the stories about him is his generosity, his lack of arrogance, his lack of ego. He always looked out for everybody else, the fans he was incredibly gracious with, and he always wanted to put front and center his teammates and not him. So he just had this sort of otherworldly, sort of naturalistic goodness to him. Which is why, partly, that the Hobie Baker Award is given to the best collegiate hockey player, not just for their skill, but also for their sportsmanship and for their decency on the ice. Because he invented the post game handshake.

A (12:19)

He invented the post game handshake in. For hockey or for every sport. Like, tell me the story behind that.

B (12:26)

Well, for hockey, because he would always. He got roughed up pretty badly by, you know, the Bostonians, by the Ottawans, by the Montreal players. They knew how good he was. So, you know, if you're Lionel Messi, then you try and hack down this guy constantly. And. And he was good. And so he got beaten up and attacked, you know, on the ice a lot. But he would always want. He would hobble in to the opposing locker room and shake everybody's hands, and it was just him. It was never done before. And so the NHL credit him with inventing the post game handshake.

A (13:06)

Wow. And, you know, so we've. We talked about his time at Princeton, but. But he graduates, and then he. He goes on a motorcycle trip around Europe, and he finally lives in New York. He's working for J.P. morgan, but he's disillusioned with his life a little bit. And in the podcast, you connect him with the famous lost generation of that time period. How so?

B (13:25)

Well, it's interesting because, yes, he was working for J.P. morgan, and he wasn't working for J.P. morgan. He was literally working for Julius be Morgan. And so he's working in the basement. And when he graduates from Princeton, it's one of these classic issues about a great athlete. What do they do after their career is over? He's working in the basement clipping coupons for wealthy, gilded age high society. You know, he feels trapped. He feels like he's in a cage and his whole Life was about flying, Flying on the ice, flying through the football field. He was a great hockey player in both the college Hockey, College Football hall of Fame, and the Hockey hall of Fame. So, you know, after he's graduated and his sporting career seems to be at an end, you know, he doesn't know what to do with himself. And what he wants to do with himself is join the war. He wants to join the first World War. And he actually attempts to enlist after that motorcycle tour in the British army in London. And he's stopped by a Princeton professor, a guy called Augustus Trowbridge, from enlisting in London in 1914. And Trowbridge says to him, listen, your mentor, Woodrow Wilson, who was his mentor at Princeton, is now the president, and he's keeping us out of the war. And this is one of the things about Hobie. He's zelig like, he's. He touches upon so many famous people. You know, F. Scott Fitzgerald, as you've mentioned, Cole Porter in Paris even. And, you know, this is not what we talk about in the podcast, but the famous dog that saved Hollywood, Rint in Tintin, lived with Hobie on the air base in France. So he's just, you know, he touches across all these different worlds of high society and celebrity at the time.

A (15:15)

It is not exactly Forrest Gump, but it is not. Not Forrest Gump in some ways there. But, you know, an important part of this story, I think, is Percy Rivington Pine, who I'd like to bring in here, because at the same time as he moves to New York, he becomes roommates with this man, Percy, who's a fellow Princeton alum. And, you know, he would throw lavish Gatsby esque parties. And the podcast makes a strong case that the relationship was more than just a friendship, that there were romantic hints there. What's that? Evidence that Jess Hobie and Percy were lovers. And tell us about the impact that it makes in the podcast when you're talking about it.

B (15:52)

Yeah, well, Percy Rivington Pine II is a fabulous character, sort of from central casting. He is the scion of Moses Taylor Pine, who is one of the wealthiest men in America at the time, friends of the Vanderbilts and the Astors and the Goulets and others. Moses Taylor Pine runs Princeton and bankrolls Princeton and makes it transforms it from a sort of provincial community college to the university that you would recognize today. And Percy is a playboy. He loves lavish parties. He creates scenes of Paris for the Astors at a ball in New York. And Percy is a golfer. Golfer. He wins the third NCAA, 1899. He's the NCAA golf champion, but he just loves giving wonderful parties. And the thing about their relationship is that, and this is important, it is not circumstantial evidence when you go through the relationship that they had, when you go through the letters, when you go through the accounts of their relationship, when you go through. And experts look at that. We brought in a lot of LGBTQ historians to look at the materials that we gathered. Clearly they're in a relationship. Clearly they are lovers. Clearly they're deeply affectionate. And they lived together in New York and they, Hobie would share purse's valet, his butler, and Percy would basically fund all of his lifestyle. And the beautiful thing about that relationship is that. And one thing that I really was not. Not fully aware of was that space for same sex love at that time was much larger than we perceive today. You know, we think that gay relationships have suddenly been accepted, you know, mostly in 2024. But in fact, the real codification of attacks upon homosexuality didn't really kick in until the 20s and 30s. At this time, people didn't really think of themselves as gay or straight. They thought of themselves as men who might love men who might love women who might love both. That binary wasn't there in the same way. So there was a space and sort of a glass closet that Hobie and Percy lived within. And even in the biography of the 1960s, there have been two fabulous more recent biographies, one by Tim Rappeli and one by Emil Salvini. But even the older biography of 1960s had lots of questions in the notes about their relationship. But it wasn't a time when the author could approach or broach that question. And the letters from Percy to Hobie were mysteriously lost on the way back from France. Whereas the other effects that Percy had sent Hobie did come back, but the letters disappeared. So we only have the letters from Hobie to Percy, which are letters between lovers. And it's, it's not being covered up. It's just America has decided to look the other way. Sporting America, because it wasn't a story that fit the narrative of who a masculine sports hero was.

A (19:19)

Well, that idea of what a masculine sports hero was, what a hero in general, also applies to his service as well, right? I mean, in 1917, you mentioned President Wilson entering into World War I and Hobie goes into service. I'm looking at the clock here. We got about three minutes left. But I'm just wondering, what does his service look like? How does it fit into the larger narrative? Of what you're describing here.

B (19:40)

Well, Hobie, by 1916, 17, decides to join a very small group of wealthy people and learn how to fly because he wants to get into the war. And finally, when America joins the war, he is one of the handful of American pilots sent over. And life expectancy as a World War I pilot was a matter of weeks. We're talking 25 to maybe 30 days life expectancy. This is only 13, 14 years after the Wright brothers first flight. And he goes up. He's a squadron commander in Tool in northern France. He flies for a number of months. Finally, when they get to the front lines, he shoots down three planes. To be an ace, you have to shoot down plans. Five planes, but he's credited with three. But he's also known to be a fabulously skillful pilot, just as he was on the hockey rinks and on the football fields. He's just through the air. He's daring and he's fabulous. And the air war in the First World War was much different to the awfulness of the trenches beneath. It was noblemen fighting noblemen. Hobie talks about coming across across a German pilot that he says was flying a beautiful plane. And he was a beautiful pilot. And then Hobie unloaded the machine gun into that plane. There was honor between these pilots. But Hobie's war service is again front page news back in America. They talk about this great sports hero, Hobie Baker, who is now our great war hero.

A (21:14)

And, you know, I'm looking at the clock. I want to make sure that we get into all of this. You can go into the podcast to talk about, to hear the circumstances of his tragic death, his questionable death. We don't have time for it right now. But before we end, I just really want to go back to his legacy. You know, Andy, how do you think the fact that he was queer should change how we remember his legacy as an historically important athlete?

B (21:39)

Well, I hope that this actually is so validating for queer youth who love hockey or any other sport. I mean, at the end of the day, there have been thousands of professional hockey players in the NHL. Not a single one has felt able to come out as gay or bisexual. We know through a lot of research that queer kids playing these games feel very, very frightened and very, very unable to be themselves. So the legacy here is that we have discovered that one of the icons of this sport, which is very homophobic and very macho and still very exclusionary, but the icon of this sport was somebody who was a same sex loving man, a gay potentially bisexual, but probably gay man. I think that says to the sport that you should accept that you can have great heroes in your sport that love the sport and you should love them back. Because right now, the NHL does not. The NHL does not create the space for those queer or bisexual gay youth to play.

A (22:41)

If you want to hear more about the story of Hobie Baker, you can check out the three part 30 for 30 podcast. Searching for Hobie Baker. It's out now. We've been talking to Andy Reynolds, who's the executive producer. Andy, thanks for bringing the story to us. Really appreciate it.

B (22:57)

I appreciate it, too. Thank you.

A (22:59)

That's our show for today. We will be back tomorrow. We are going to be talking to the Pod Save America team about how to be involved with politics and keep your sanity. And we're going to be talking about commencement speeches. So a big day for speech giving. We'll see you there tomorrow. Bye.

B (23:15)

Bye.

A (23:16)

I'm Ira Flato, host of Science Friday. For over 30 years, our team has been reporting high quality news about science, technology and medicine. News you won't get anywhere else. And now that political news is 24 7, our audience is turning to us to know about the really important stuff in their lives. Cancer, climate change, genetic engineering, childhood diseases. Our sponsors know the value of science and health news. For more sponsorship information, visit sponsorship.wnyc.org.