All Of It — Rian Johnson Talks "Wake Up Dead Man"

Date: December 10, 2025
Host: Alison Stewart (B)
Guest: Rian Johnson (A), Writer & Director

Episode Overview

This episode centers around director Rian Johnson's latest film, Wake Up Dead Man: A Knives Out Mystery, the third entry in the popular whodunit series. Johnson discusses the film’s unique gothic setting in a church, its themes of faith and leadership, the challenges of writing an "impossible" crime, personal connections to the material, and his approach to building star-studded ensemble casts. The conversation also touches on the evolving landscape of movie distribution and Johnson’s broader thoughts on culture, humor, and storytelling.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting & Thematic Shift: From Mansions to Church

• Johnson wanted each Knives Out film to feel distinct, taking inspiration from Agatha Christie's varied settings.
• Desire for a more "gothic" and personal story led to placing the mystery in a church, delving into themes of faith (02:51 - 03:48).
  • Quote: "I wanted to also make it personal. I grew up very Christian." – Rian Johnson (03:19)
  • Johnson is no longer a believer but reflects on how faith shapes people long-term.
  • Quote: "As anyone who grew up with faith will tell you, the shape of that never quite leaves you." – Rian Johnson (04:14)

2. Portrayal of Faith & Writing with Authenticity

• Johnson insisted on an honest depiction, avoiding caricature, drawing on his evangelical upbringing (04:38 - 05:18).
  • "The only way to write honestly about the topic, I think, is to come from a place of personal experience." – Rian Johnson (04:51)

3. Production Design & Symbolism

• Filmed in London to get the right architectural look for an ‘Upstate New York’ church (05:20).
• Church set designed to reflect the controlling nature of Monsignor Wicks, notably missing a crucifix, emphasizing spiritual vacancy (05:53 - 06:25).
  • "The centerpiece...supposed to be the crucifix on the wall...it's not there. And that's indicative of what’s wrong with Wicks's church." – Rian Johnson (06:05)
• The pulpit styled after the prow of a ship, inspired by Moby Dick (06:33).

4. Casting & Character Insights

• Josh O’Connor (Father Judd):
  • Chosen for deep empathy and curiosity; had in-depth conversations with real priests to prepare (07:37 - 09:06).
    • "Somebody who can earn the audience's empathy without asking for it." – Rian Johnson (09:01)
• Josh Brolin (Monsignor Wicks):
  • Brolin’s character is charismatic but authoritarian; was important not to paint a one-dimensional antagonist.
    • "He can be scary...also incredibly funny...You had to also kind of see why this flock kind of is drawn to his cult of personality." – Rian Johnson (10:14)

5. Leadership, Faith, & Modern Parallels

• Film’s two priests reflect different modes of leadership, resonant with contemporary "us vs. them" social divides (11:12).
  • "No matter what social group you’re in these days...that’s a common thread." – Rian Johnson (11:41)

6. Humor & Tone Balance

• Humor is intrinsic to Johnson’s storytelling and his memories of life inside the church.
  • “The reality is...it’s your life. And that means it’s also funny.” – Rian Johnson (13:01)

7. Structure of the Mystery & Genre Homages

• This film adopts a classic “impossible crime”/locked-room mystery, directly referencing John Dickson Carr’s works (15:21 - 16:45).
  • "They're like little chess puzzles, basically." – Rian Johnson (16:13)
• Benoit Blanc (Daniel Craig) enters later, letting the conflict between Father Judd and Wicks anchor the first act (14:12).

8. Writing Process

• Johnson drafts longhand in pocket-sized Moleskine notebooks with a fountain pen, combining notes, dialogue, and structure diagrams (18:52 - 20:09).
  • "For me, it's tremendously helpful to work in that place as long as possible before you get lost in the woods." – Rian Johnson (19:52)

9. Assembling the Ensemble Cast

• Johnson cherishes working with movie stars in an ensemble format, noting everyone signs up for the collaborative, almost “summer stock” experience (21:13 - 22:44).
  • "I’ve never had to deal with a movie star ego on set from any of the three casts we’ve had. Everyone’s just shown up." – Rian Johnson (22:04)

10. Evolving Benoit Blanc

• Blanc’s evolving style and appearance suggest off-screen growth; Johnson prefers to leave his backstory mysterious (22:44 - 24:09).

11. Industry Changes: Netflix-Warner Merger & Theater Distribution

• Johnson expresses uncertainty about the future of streaming and theatrical releases but is heartened by young audiences returning to theaters (24:33 - 26:08).
  • "It is a young audience driving that move to the theater...it is the way...people want to experience movies." – Rian Johnson (25:42)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Setting & Theme:
  • "I wanted to ground it a little more...thought it'd be fun to take it to sort of more of a gothic kind of tone." – Rian Johnson (03:07)
• On Writing Faith:
  • "The only way to write honestly about the topic, I think, is to come from a place of personal experience with it." (04:51)
• On Ensemble Casts:
  • "Everybody shows up not wanting to go back to their trailer...wanting to have that kind of summer stock theater experience." (22:15)
• On Humor:
  • "We had a lot of farting and church humor." (13:15)
• On Future of Cinema:
  • "It is a young audience driving that move to the theater." (25:42)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 02:51 – Choosing a church setting and personal connection
• 04:38 – Authenticity in writing about faith
• 05:53 – Symbolism in production design
• 07:37 – Casting Josh O’Connor and his process
• 10:07 – Casting Josh Brolin and character depth
• 11:12 – Themes of leadership and social parallels
• 12:58 – Blending humor with serious themes
• 14:12 – Structure of mystery and Benoit Blanc’s entrance
• 15:21 – Impossible crime/locked-room mystery
• 18:52 – Johnson’s writing process
• 21:13 – Building and working with the ensemble cast
• 22:44 – Evolution of Benoit Blanc
• 24:33 – The Netflix/Warner merger and cinema’s future

Conclusion

Rian Johnson’s conversation peels back the layers of Wake Up Dead Man, revealing not just the creative decisions behind the latest Knives Out film, but also his personal reflections on faith, leadership, and modern community. Listeners gain insight into his innovative process, genre influences, approach to ensemble casting, and cautious optimism about cinema’s evolving landscape.