Riz Ahmed (3:41)

Thank you for having me. It's good to see you again.

Alison Stewart (3:43)

It's good to see you as well. Bait is a British slang term. What does it mean?

Riz Ahmed (3:48)

Yeah, it's one of my favorite British slang words. It means being really blatant or unsubtle or in your face. And it's an adjective, but it's also a verb. You can bait someone up. It's like blowing up someone's spot, but it has more meanings than that. And each of the different meanings corresponds to one of the different elements to the show. Because our show has lots of different genres to it. So Bait is also, literally speaking, something is used as part of a trap. And there's a spy thriller element to our show. In Urdu, it means loyalty or allegiance. It's about Shah trying to, you know, balance ambition and family. In Arabic and Hebrew, it means home. And there's a big family element to this. And online, for Gen Z, you know, trolling someone is baiting them. So. And there's a very much a kind of psychological, kind of social media spiral element to our show as well. So, you know, the show, just like the show's title, has all these different flavors, all these different dimensions, and that's what life feels like. It feels messy and slightly chaotic in its tonal whiplash. And I wanted to kind of have that in the show.

Alison Stewart (4:50)

I'm gonna start a little bit with the show and then we'll expand out a little bit. It begins with an audition and your character's auditioning to be James Bond. Let's talk about that scene. What did it take to write that scene? A Bond like scene Where. What elements did it have to have?

Riz Ahmed (5:06)

Oh, that's a great question. Yeah. I think there's an amazing kind of cocktail, you know, no pun intended, for of. Of Bond scenes. And. And it's kind of set such a template that, as a fan, it's not too challenging to inhabit. It's challenging and tricky to do it well. But I think there has to be a femme fatale. I think there has to be a difficult or impossible choice, and I think that that choice usually has to be about your professional loyalty and your emotional loyalties. And I think there's something interesting at the heart of a lot of the kind of, like, Bond stories that actually really corresponds to our own show as well. You know, so much of it's about being pulled between your professional ambition and your kind of personal relationships, you know, and. And do those two things have to be mutually exclusive? It's, it's. It's something I'm still trying to work out.

Alison Stewart (6:06)

It's interesting and I'm not giving anything away. Shah kind of bombs the audition, but he sort of seems surprised. He's like, hey, I'd like to take that again. And she's like, no, you're not taking this. You're not gonna do this again. Um, what does this tell us about Shah?

Riz Ahmed (6:23)

I think he's hoping against hope and sometimes being delusional and being hopeful and being ambitious. It's. It's a really blur line between those things. You know, Shah is a dreamer and he's running towards a dream, but I guess. And that can be a really positive thing, a really empower, empowering thing, you know, but sometimes you have to make sure you're not also just running from yourself. And I think that's the circle he has to square. You know, can you run towards a dream but take your community, your family, and even your sense of self with you, or do you have to leave that at the door when you're chasing dreams of a certain size and of a certain grandeur? So I, I think it shows that. That he's, you know, he's. He's, He's a dreamer.

Alison Stewart (7:06)

You know, where is he in his career?

Riz Ahmed (7:09)

So it's a great question. Shah is. He's an actor who's fallen on hard times. He's about to turn 40, and he had a small role in a Star wars esque franchise back in the day called Galactic Horizons. One of his prized possessions are those Funko pop dolls. They make that in crates in his mother's garage. And he also did a rom com Called Under Mango Tree didn't do as well as he'd hoped. It's about a white woman eats mango and it's a magical mango, allows her to time travel back to colonial India where she falls in love with an Indian servant boy played by Charlotte. Unfortunately, it wasn't the four quadrant smash he was hoping for. And he's fallen on hard times. And, you know, he manages to get through to this audition to be the next James Bond. But as you say, when word gets out he might be playing the role, people have some pretty strong opinions and varied opinions, which is confusing for a people pleaser who's trying to please everybody.

Alison Stewart (8:09)

Yeah. Shah hopes that it will lead to the press that he becomes or he's in the running for James Bond. We won't say how, but it does leak to the press. What does he hope will happen? Does he really think he's gonna get James Bond?

Riz Ahmed (8:23)

I think he wants the role badly. And here's the thing. I think those of us who aren't even actors want that role badly. And here's what I mean. James Bond is the archetypal, iconic symbol of success, decisiveness, desirability. Part of all of us want to be James Bond in a way. Right. And that's why I think that the show hopefully isn't really about acting, isn't even really about James Bond. It's about the gap between who we want to be and who we really are. Do we own that gap or do we try and hide it?

Alison Stewart (8:57)

Let's listen to a clip from Bait. This is at his home with Shah and his family. Take a listen. Shah, why are you gonna be the next James Bond?

Riz Ahmed (9:09)

What?

Alison Stewart (9:11)

Huh? Wait, wait, wait, wait. It might be Cap. It might be Cap.

Riz Ahmed (9:13)

Can I have a look at that?

Alison Stewart (9:15)

Oh, no, no, no. It's legit. It's legit. What the.

Progressive Insurance Announcer (9:17)

Oh, my God.

Riz Ahmed (9:20)

That's crazy.

Alison Stewart (9:21)

Wait, wait, wait, wait. Two months.

Riz Ahmed (9:23)

Check the website.

Chase Freedom Advertiser (9:24)

It's BBC.

Riz Ahmed (9:24)

We can't trust you.

Alison Stewart (9:27)

Why didn't you tell me?

Riz Ahmed (9:29)

It's just an audition. Listen, it's an audition. It's a photo from today's audition. That's all it is. James Bond is white. Do you know how much sex James Bond does? Listen, it's okay to be a little bit excited, you know, it's nice even, just. Just to have the opportunity. It's a big deal, you know, Brown James Bond. You should be proud.

Alison Stewart (10:01)

It's mad. You know, this guy's face is gonna be blasted everywhere.

Riz Ahmed (10:04)

Imagine imagining Daniel Craig got paid 20M's

Alison Stewart (10:07)

for the last movie, my Shah Joo will get 21.

Riz Ahmed (10:11)

Guys, just calm down. It's just an audition. Yeah, call me if you need a body double for sex scenes.

Alison Stewart (10:16)

I love that scene because everyone in the family is talking over each other as family.

Riz Ahmed (10:21)

Right?

Alison Stewart (10:21)

It's so good.

Riz Ahmed (10:22)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, we really wanted to kind of throw people into this world, throw people into this experience. You know, the direction and the camera work from, you know, by Frank Lamb dop and our director, Bassam Tariq, who also directed Mogul Mowgli, a film that we did together is just, is just really kind of. Yeah, it's just immersive, immediate and kind of visceral. You just feel like you're suddenly there. You're part of this chaotic family. And so that was really important to us. But it wouldn't have been possible without the incredible cast. We have Guz Khan, who's a kind of national treasure. Now in the uk we're very well known stand up comedian who's my cousin in that clip saying, it doesn't make sense though, bro. James Bond is white, kind of low key, hating on my success. Sajid Hassan, one of the most prominent actors in Pakistan, who wants to be the body double in sex scenes playing dad there. Sheba Chadha, one of the, well, most well known and beloved actresses in India over there, who thinks that I'll get 21 million compared to Daniel Craig's 20. And Asia Shah, who's a, who's a rising star in the uk, who's just such personality and such a kind of unique presence on camera. And so, yeah, we were just really blessed with an amazing team. And I think comedy is about chemistry. And so what you hear and what you see is, is the result of, I think, just that family vibe that actually existed between us on set.

Alison Stewart (11:48)

I'm speaking with Riz Ahmed, he's the creator and star of the new series Bade about a young actor trying to make it but managing to get in his own way. All six episodes will stream on Amazon prime on March 26th. Is it true that you had to talk to Barbara Broccoli to be able to use the James Bond ness of this?

Riz Ahmed (12:07)

Absolutely did, yeah. So when we came up with a, you know, this show kind of dates back 10 years for me, kind of scribbling down various anecdotes and stories about increasingly ridiculous situations I found myself in. Again, there were situations that juxtaposed my public and private self and how gaping the chasm was between those two things. And it's thought about how do we kind of allow this to kind of cohere? What's the vessel through which we can talk about, you know, who we want to be versus who we are? We said, of course, it's the out of work actor who wants to be, be James Bond. That's it. That's the perfect analogy. But then everybody said, yeah, good luck. She's never going to let you use it, not in a million years. And rightly so. You know, Barbara Broccoli's kind of shepherded this franchise from strength to strength. She's inherited it. It's a family heirloom, it's a prize possession. But I thought, I have to try, man, I have to try. So we wrote her a letter, wrote her an email, sat with her, had a long lunch with her, brunch with her actually at a diner in la and gave her the script for the first three episodes and said, this is what I'm trying to do. And I explained to her that honestly, it's not really about James Bond.

Alison Stewart (13:15)

He's a symbol of other things.

Riz Ahmed (13:16)

He's a symbol of success and aspiration. He's the archetypal mask that we want to wear when we're feeling vulnerable, you know. And so I showed it to her and to her credit, she totally got it, she totally understood it and she really loved it. And she said, you know, go ahead, go with God. Her one stipulation was, do not portray me in this, in this show. And I was like, I was like, no, I wouldn't dream of it. I've got utmost respect for her as a woman and as a producer. And, and, and so, yeah, she, she let us go with it. And it really is very, I don't think it's ever happened before. I don't think they're kind of, you know, the rights holders to the Bond franchise have ever allowed people to, to do something like this with it. And yeah, I think it really just kind of spoke to the strength of those scripts, honestly. We had an incredible writers room with people from the Bear in there, people from Yellowjackets, you know, people from the Colbert Report, the John Stewart Show.

Alison Stewart (14:16)

That's a really interesting writers room.

Riz Ahmed (14:18)

Yeah, we had some amazing, amazing, amazing people with some stand up comedians, we had people who worked with Hassan Minhaj. We had like, you know, a really amazing brain trust. And because we're trying to, we're trying to thread a really specific needle, we're trying to make it a comedy and also a family drama, but also a spy thriller and a love story and something That's a love letter to home. And we, we needed the best brains possible, much smarter than me. And we got them, luckily.

Alison Stewart (14:44)

So one thing about Shaw and I was discussing this with my producer Andrea, who brought you in. We are both moms and we were like, he makes bad choices, man. We both get the same age. Like, this poor guy is making some bad choices regularly. Why does he do that?

Riz Ahmed (15:01)

Because that's what humans do. Because that's who we are. Because we're messy and really, because we want to be loved and we look for love in all the wrong places. That's really the cardinal sin, but also the most human, relatable, forgivable thing about this character. He just wants to be loved. And actually he needs to be loved. And that's, that's the real problem. He's has a deficit of self love in many ways. I would describe the show as its mission impossible. If the impossible, impossible mission was self love.

Alison Stewart (15:30)

Yeah.

Riz Ahmed (15:31)

You know, but he wants fame too.

Alison Stewart (15:32)

He doesn't just want the, like the heartfelt party wants a little bit of fame.

Riz Ahmed (15:37)

Well, I think these days isn't the kind of currency of acceptance, validation, and so social affirmation, some level of notoriety. Right. Like we're living in Warhol's like, moment. If, like, everyone gets their 15 minutes. Right. Well, I want mine. If everyone gets their 15 minutes, can I have an hour? Right. Actually. And so I think that they is actually, you know, in this, in this social media age, I think what Shah wants isn't that different to what most of us want. You know, we want to be publicly affirmed. We want to have our existence kind of like you care less celebrated in some way.

Alison Stewart (16:13)

You care less about that as you get older, though.

Riz Ahmed (16:15)

Yeah, I think so. And I feel that myself, massively, is probably why I'm able to make this show now and kind of like look back slightly, the kind of the validation seeker that I was. Now I'm just much more of a sleep seeker now that I've got a young kid. I just really want to catch the Z's whenever I can rather than the likes.

Alison Stewart (16:36)

It's interesting, there's this sort of sad moment. Not sad. It sort of breaks your heart a little bit. When he's looking for a watch that he got when he was a kid, I think in high school.

Riz Ahmed (16:45)

No, it was a watch that he got is a Rising Star award for best new actor at the Toulouse film festival from 2015.

Alison Stewart (16:55)

And he's looking at it and what

Riz Ahmed (16:57)

is he thinking when he's thinking, I have to Sell this.

Alison Stewart (16:59)

Right.

Riz Ahmed (17:00)

Can I tell you, this is all drawn from my real life. Like there's so much in this show that's from, Honestly, there's a park where we film this scene from the character's childhood. That's the part behind my parents house. There's a panic attack in the Kentish Town Forum, a bit famous music venue in London. That literally happened to me when I was supporting Wu Tang Clan. Almost got booed off stage in front of 5,000 people. Had a panic attack burst out into that same alley we filmed in. And also I, one of the first things I ever was awarded as a prize, I did a micro budget film called Shifty which was nominated for a bafta. It was made with a, you know, just like a motley crew of friends. Against all odds, it did well as a movie. And I won a watch. I was awarded a watch for like best rising star or whatever. And I opened that box and took the watch out and wore it for the first time, I think 15 years after it had been awarded to me because I always felt like this is an insurance policy and probably once every six months I would check what I could sell that watch for.

Alison Stewart (18:06)

Wow.

Riz Ahmed (18:06)

And, and you know, that's about the precarity of, you know, anyone who's self employed, honestly, you know, in this economy. But, but it was also about, I don't know, I just felt there was something heartbreaking in that about the character. When I think about it, it's something heartbreaking that for me is like I don't feel I can kind of count my wins. I have to kind of like hide them under the mattress for a rainy day. Because you always feel a rainy day might come, particularly when you are a child of immigrants, particularly when you've been taught not to trust the universal society or that you might get your fair roll of the dice. So I, I, yeah, that was pulled straight from my life.

Alison Stewart (18:44)

Wow. Your character's prone to panic attacks. And they take these sort of surreal forms. We see them kind of almost like dreams or visions that he has like a head talking to him where he's on a podcast hosted by Patrick Stewart and there's a slight mention of mental health issues in the family. What is going on with him that he's having these sort of visions?

Riz Ahmed (19:11)

You know, I think it's hard to be a human being in the world right now.

Redfin Advertiser (19:14)

Yeah.

Riz Ahmed (19:15)

I think there's a reason why anxiety is, is like the number one chronic health crisis facing us all. And I think for someone like Shah, who is sensitive and is an artist. Like, I think being an artist, but trying to, like, sell your wares in the, like, gladiatorial coliseum of social media is like taking the most sensitive thing possible and putting it in the most bruising place there is. You know, I don't know anyone in the public eye who hasn't had or almost had a nervous breakdown at some point. I have. I've had physical breakdowns. I know most of my friends have had some kind in the public eye have had a moment of like, I can't do it. It's not really natural. It's not human. Yeah. And what you're finding is whether you're a celebrity or not or you're someone who just liked the wrong tweet or said the wrong thing, the level of scrutiny and that hive mind that we can all face, whether that's cancel culture or judgment or accidentally trending unwittingly for your worst moment. I was watching that thing the other day about that couple who kissed at the Coldplay concert. Right. It's like we're not hardwired as animals for that level of scrutiny. The fight or flight kicks in. So I kind of. I sympathize with him. I feel like he's having a very human response to a very unnatural kind of goldfish bowl that we all live in at the moment.

Alison Stewart (20:34)

I think about that every day on the radio for two hours live every day. I'm like, this could be the last one.

Riz Ahmed (20:39)

Yeah, right. You never say the wrong thing. Exactly. Here we go. Let's make it a good one.

Alison Stewart (20:43)

My guest is Riz Ahmed. He's the creator and star of the new series Bait, about a young actor trying to make it. He gets in his own way occasionally. All six episodes will stream on Amazon prime on March 26th. You've done comedy in the past, but you're also known for your intense roles. Sort of sound of metal. This feels like a mixture. A mixture of the intense and uncomfortable humor. What made you want to go for both?

Riz Ahmed (21:13)

When I sit down to watch something with my wife in front of the tv, you know the thing we watch most often? We watch nothing. We scroll past every title, watch 15 different trailers, and debate about whether we're watching a romance or a comedy or family drama or spy thriller. So I said, well, I want to make all of it. It's really trying to solve a very personal problem. I want to give people a full meal. You know, honestly, the projects I love the most are things that walk a tonal line, are things that kind of stretch, bend, or Subvert genre. I think that's most exciting to audiences who are so film and television literate now. You got to subvert their expectations. Just for me, as a fan and as a creative, it's exciting to me. So I just honestly wanted to kind of be as honest and messy as life is. Like, I don't know, I'm here, like, you know, trying to be all, like, I know what I'm talking about on wnyc. I'm gonna walk outside and, like, slip on a banana skin, you know, I mean, suddenly I'm in a slapstick comedy. Like, life takes place in this kind of myriad of genres. I wanted this show too. And honestly, it's. It's a real point of pride for me that that's a big piece of feedback we're getting that it's like, it's quite unique in its multiplicity of genre. And it's. And it's the different kind of tones that the. The show is. So honestly, it's just the kind of stuff I love making and love watching.

Alison Stewart (22:31)

What's hard about comedy.

Riz Ahmed (22:36)

What's hard about comedy, I think, is so many things are hard about comedy. I think, like, structuring a joke is. Is almost a technical feat, and yet ultimately, it lives or dies on something. Something kind of ephemeral. You know, it's. Honestly, it's like. It feels like poetry to me, as someone who's, like, written a lot of poetry, you know, it's about, like, what's the minimum, most concise number of words and the correct amount of space with which you can bypass someone's brain and hit their heart? Or in with comedy, you bypass their brain and hit their gut. I want you to laugh before you understand why you're laughing, you know? And so much of that is about the kind of the technical structuring of a reversal. Right? Or the spacing around things. There's a. There's a real kind of, like, technical aspect to it. But I tell you what is exciting about comedy is I feel you can be more honest. I feel you can say the unsayable. I think you can be more ugly, more messy, more vulnerable. All of which those things my character in this show is. And I really kind of like, look back fondly at doing comedy projects like Four Lions, which I'd done in my past, which is. I mean, it's a. It's a comedy about a group of lovable wannabe suicide bombers. I mean, you could not. You on paper, you're like, well, hang on a minute. I remember people coming out the screening at Sundance Film Festival. Kind of like, should we be laughing or not? You know, it's a very British humor. It's very kind of dry humor. It's honestly, I think, a place where we can understand, unpack, and laugh at some of the. Like, some of the things that are the hardest to work through. And. And I guess I'll just, like, say, just on a personal level, I need it. I need to laugh. We need to laugh. The world is so hard right now. Like, yes, like, what you're saying is right. Honestly, like, the show has all these different threads and elements and themes. If 90% of people watch this show and they just go, that was funny, I'm happy. I'm happy. I just want to give people some joy. I'll give people some honesty, you know,

Alison Stewart (24:54)

why did this feel like the right project for you in your life at this moment?

Riz Ahmed (25:01)

I felt like for a long time. I think this marks a bit of an evolution in my thought around what my job is. Right. So I used to think acting was about being someone else and putting on a mask. Right now I think it's about taking off the mask and sharing as much of yourself as possible. And so, as a natural consequence, that meant diving deep into the anecdote, stories, and experiences of my own life and trying to share them in a way that felt scary and felt vulnerable, but felt right. You know, I feel like this. As storytellers, our goal is to try and kind of stretch culture. And I think there's two ways of doing that. One is by inhabiting the archetypes that already exist. For example, I've got Hamlet coming out in the US in. In, like, 10 days or so. Right. Very excited about that and inhabiting those archetypes. And the. And the other way of stretching culture is about kind of trying to offer up new ones, create new molds, not just stretch the ones that already exist. And particularly coming from a. From a community and from a background that I felt hasn't often been represented growing up in a way that's felt honest to me and. And celebrated the chaos, you know, of that family scene in the right way. I just really. I wanted to do that. I wanted to offer that. I wanted to kind of contribute that, you know, culturally, and I wanted to honestly work through it on a therapy level. Like, you know, I think that now, more and more, I feel like if you've got something you need to work out, you've got a series of questions. That's a useful place to go to as a storyteller. Not just for you, but for other people. And so I feel like I needed to work a bunch of stuff around, like, well, why am I really doing this? Why am I an actor? Is this just the kind of the, the attention seeker from my childhood that's just never grown up? Like, is it. Am I trying to take care of my family when I try and think that I'm like, trying to move forwards? Representation, what is that? Is that just a different kind of like, you know, a more supposedly noble version of fame I'm seeking? Like, it. Does it change? Does it move the needle? Did it change anything? Aren't we just worse off than we ever were? Like 10 years after the representation windows closed. So, like, you know, I'm kind of grappling with all of this myself. And I thought, like, man, actually ask the right way. These are some funny questions.

Alison Stewart (27:28)

But it's amazing that you're taking on the role that all actors want to take on. Hamlet is coming out in 10 days.

Riz Ahmed (27:35)

Yeah, yeah. April 10th, I think is when it comes out in the US that's amazing.

Alison Stewart (27:39)

I mean, it's, it's like the role that all actors want. Did have you played Hamlet before?

Riz Ahmed (27:44)

No, I'd never played Hamlet, but I was in love with the, with the, with the material since I was 17. I got a government assisted place to go to a private school where I felt very out of place. And I was very lucky to have a teacher who has kind of changed my life. He was a white Jewish guy from the north of England. We ostensibly had nothing in common, but he spoke fluent Punjabi and he took me under his wing and he understood how I felt out of place there. And he gave me Hamlet and said, this is the most, the stuffiest, most important crown jewel of the Western establishment and the dramatic canon. Have a read of this. Maybe you find yourself in it. And I suddenly realized actually, Shakespeare isn't dead. He's been kidnapped. He's been kidnapped by intellectuals and by the establishment. And I read it. Actually what I found was my own community story. This is a story about who you can and can't marry, people squabbling over the family business, spirit possession and ghosts appearing to you in dreams or fever dreams. Duty, honor, loyalty. These were themes that were actually part of my lived experience growing up as a British South Asian in Northwest London. You know, Wembley, the neighborhood I grew up in is kind of an equivalent to, say, Jackson Heights. Right? And. And I was suddenly like, man, this belongs to all of us. So really, honestly, as precocious as it sounds, the age of 17, I was like, I want to make a movie of this one day, and I want to kind of democratize and smash open what this myth can be and who it can be for and set it in my own community. And so, yeah, man, like, 25 years later, we. We finally managed to do it.

Alison Stewart (29:25)

But first you have to watch Bait on Amazon prime, and then you can go see Hamlet.

Riz Ahmed (29:30)

Yeah, hopefully.

Alison Stewart (29:31)

Thanks, Riz. Thanks for being with us.

Riz Ahmed (29:33)

Thank you.

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Alison Stewart (30:07)

What do you want for dinner?

Riz Ahmed (30:08)

Whatever. I'm easy.

Redfin Advertiser (30:09)

How about Greek?

Riz Ahmed (30:11)

Had it for lunch.

Redfin Advertiser (30:12)

Mexican?

Riz Ahmed (30:13)

Yes, but not tonight.

Redfin Advertiser (30:14)

Chinese pass. Japanese?

Riz Ahmed (30:16)

Nah.

Redfin Advertiser (30:17)

Italian?

Riz Ahmed (30:18)

Eh.

Redfin Advertiser (30:19)

Indian? How about Masala place?

Riz Ahmed (30:23)

Whatever. I'm easy.

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