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All Of It with Alison Stewart
Roxane Gay on Gun Ownership
00:26:26
Roxane Gay discusses her new essay, 'Stand Your Ground: A Black Feminists Reckoning with America's Gun Problem.'
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- [00:04]
Roxane Gay
Listener Support WNYC Studios.
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Host 2
This is all of it.
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Alison Stewart
I'm Alison Stewart, live from the WNYC studios in soho. Thank you for spending part of your Friday with us. I'm really grateful you're here. On today's show, we'll preview the upcoming fall theater season. We'll also learn about the new documentary the Cowboy and the Queen, which follows a California horse trainer whose gentle technique piqued the interest of Queen Elizabeth. And we'll speak with artist Gina Bevers, whose new exhibit is inspired by Comfort Core. That is the plan. So let's get this started with writer Roxane Gay. In Roxane Gay's essay about gun ownership, she writes, we no longer wonder if there will be another mass shooting. Instead, we wonder when the next mass shooting will happen and where. Sadly, we now know in Georgia. For now, writer Professor Roxane Gay has a new essay coming out tomorrow called Stand you'd A Black Feminist Reckoning with America's Gun Problem. And while the essay explores gun culture and gun safety and other issues related to shootings like the one in Georgia, it also focuses on personal gun ownership. And Gaye starts with her brother, a gun enthusiast, and how her experiences with him at the range shaped her thinking on the issue. She gets into the different philosophies and self defense during the civil rights era and explores the sometimes contradictory feelings that arise from her own experiences as a gun owner. The essay comes out tomorrow on the Ever Ann, which is a subscription publisher. Roxanne will also be at the Harlem Book Fair tomorrow afternoon to talk about the piece. Roxanne, thanks for joining us.
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Roxane Gay
Thank you so much for having me. Alison.
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Alison Stewart
We are talking about civil rights, feminism, gun ownership. We're going to open the phones and we're looking for gun owners, particularly women who own guns or who might be thinking about becoming a gun owner. Our Phone lines are 2124-3396-9221-2433 wnyc. You can call or text that number. Our social media is llove nyc. Tell us what went into your decision that's leading you to buy a firearm. The number again is 212-433-10. The title of your essay is Stand, you'd Ground, which is a reference to the laws that say roughly that a person is justified to use force if they believe they are reasonably in harm's way. Tell us why you settled on that for the title of the piece.
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Roxane Gay
Oh, that's a great question. I settled on that for the title because in theory, stand your ground laws exist in most states. And those laws state that if someone attacks your home, it's really the Castle doctrine, you have the right to defend it. However, we have seen time and time again that not all people are treated equally under the rule of the law. And it happens with regard to law in every realm, but especially when it comes to gun ownership. There have been several instances where black people have stood their ground legally in their homes as licensed gun owners and have been killed for that. And so I was very interested in this idea of stand your ground because a lot of NRA rhetoric is about protecting your family, but really it's about protecting the white family. Because when black people try to protect themselves, all of a sudden it's a problem. Marissa Alexander. There was a young Air Force officer who was recently murdered by police, even though he was a legal gun owner in his home. And they had, I believe, the wrong address. And Philando Castile was a legal gun owner. He disclosed that he had a gun. He was in his car minding his own business. And. And he was killed in front of his daughter and girlfriend. And so what does it mean to have a legal right to something and then have that legal right ignored? And that's how I ended up with.
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Alison Stewart
The title, everything you just said. How much of that went through your mind in your decision to own a gun?
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Roxane Gay
All of it. There's simply no way to responsibly consider owning a gun and not think about the potential repercussions. And I will say my wife and I don't have children. If we had children, it would be an absolute non starter. And we also don't have any. We have lots and lots of children in our lives, but they are not particularly young because we're not particularly young. And we also, you know, it's, you know, people are always like, so do you think about it all the time? No, I actually don't think about it at all because it's in a safe and the safe is hidden and really nobody knows where it is. But you can't not think about potential consequences because the reality is that most gun accidents happen by owners themselves in their homes. Most gun injuries happen by someone you know, and you never want to bring that kind of danger into your home without really having a good reason. In my opinion. Some people just love guns and I guess that's a choice. But for me, it was more about protection. After receiving quite a lot of death threats, and I've gotten death threats for years, but got specific. They're getting very specific and very detailed. And when people Start trotting out pictures of your home and things like that. You know, this is no longer just theoretical. This is not just someone bloviating on the Internet. This is someone who, for better or worse, wants me to believe that they're going to harm me. And so I tend to take that seriously.
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Alison Stewart
At the beginning of the essay, you muse about the song Janie's Got a Gun by Aerosmith. What did you realize when you really sat down and listened to the lyrics?
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Roxane Gay
When I was much younger, I loved that song when it first came out. I think I even bought the cassette. And that's how old I am. I'm cassette years old. And I loved it then because I had recently endured a sexual assault. And in the song, this young woman, Janie, murders her father after he sexually assaults her. And I just thought how great that must have felt to regain some of that power to end the harm that was coming to you. And so I always thought that song was really quite anthemic. And then I revisited the song as I was thinking about how am I going to bring readers into this essay? And for whatever reason, that song came on the Internet radio. And I really went back and looked at the lyrics. And then I researched, how did Steven Tyler even come up with this song? And it turns out he came up with this song because around the time that the song came out, there was a high incidence of sexual violence that he had read about. And also there was a incident with gun violence that he had read about. And so it was very interesting to see how little has changed since the song came out. And I also thought it was very fitting because a lot of people would love to be able to avenge themselves.
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Alison Stewart
My guest is Roxane Gay. Her latest essay is called Stand, you'd A Black Feminist Reckoning with America's Gun Problem. In the essay, you recount your brother Joel as a beef firearm enthusiast. I think is the way to put him. You describe him as a young man going to the gun range, doing all his moves. You went with him?
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Roxane Gay
I did.
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Alison Stewart
How much of his gun ownership was a personal thing about Joel and how much was a cultural thing.
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Roxane Gay
Being from the Midwest, I think it was 100% a personal thing about Joel. Joel was an amazing man, and he was very enthusiastic about everything he did. And once he developed a passion, he went all in. And the rest of our family, we. When he started collecting guns, we were just like, what is going on here? Because we're not a gun family. We were not raised around guns. My parents to this day do not own A gun. And so it was very curious. And I do think, of course, being around the Midwest and growing up in the Midwest and where gun ownership is, quite frankly, fairly normalized, it's not exotic. It's just people own guns, and there's a lot of hunting and so on. And so I'm sure that was partly an influence, but he just seemed to really enjoy shooting and being very good at it. And he implored all of us, my brother, my other brother, my parents and I, to get guns. And we all said, absolutely not. And.
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Alison Stewart
Why do you say absolutely not.
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Host 2
At that point in your life?
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Roxane Gay
Well, I mean, look what happened in Georgia. I just don't think that we should. I just don't think we need to own guns as a country. I really do think that there are many countries throughout the world where citizens do not own guns, and everything is quite good because there are so few mass incidences. And I think that anytime you normalize any of it, it sort of softens the ground for people to commit these really grotesque acts of violence. And I saw on social media yesterday the family of the young man, and understandably, they love him, they care for him, but they're actually defending him and whatever. It is what it is. But there's some part of people that are okay with this. JD Vance yesterday said that, you know, this is just a fact of life. I don't want to live in a world where this is a fact of life, where we surrender to the inevitability of gun violence. And if that means that everyone has to give up their guns, myself included, I will be first in line. But, you know, because it is our right as of yet, and especially during the pandemic, when the threats started becoming so acute and so persistent, I made the decision to buy a gun. And I don't regret that either.
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Host 2
You said that when you became a gun owner, it felt like a capitulation as well as empowering.
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Roxane Gay
Yeah, it felt both, because on the one hand, I sort of was realizing I can either just sit here and wait for something to happen, because law enforcement can't really do anything without probable cause, without a physical incursion. And at the same time, you know, everything I stand for, everything I believe in, you know, I would love to believe that there's a way that does not involve violence. And of course, I still believe that, and I still hope for that. I hope I'm never put in a position where I have to use a gun. And so, you know, there is capitulation, but there is also, I'M not going to be a sitting duck. I'm not just gonna wait for the worst thing to happen.
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Host 2
Do you feel safer having a gun?
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Roxane Gay
The gun doesn't make me feel safer, but, and I write about this in the essay, what makes me feel safer. We also got a dog during the pandemic and his name is Maximus Toretto Blueberry Millman Gay. And he weighs nine pounds. And he is a ferocious maltipoo. And he's so adorable, but he is, like, very protective. And when anyone approaches the house, he barks up a storm, which in Manhattan, as you might imagine, means he barks nonstop. And so I always know, like, if there's something I need to pay attention to, it's always the mailman, by the way, and that poor mailman. So that makes me feel safe to know, like, oh, this little warning system, because I've never had a dog before. And so it's fascinating. I'm like, oh, my God, look at this little warning system. It just works.
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Alison Stewart
It's interesting.
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Host 2
It is a warning system, truly, because they do have a different sense about people.
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Roxane Gay
Yes. And it's always interesting to see what kinds of people make him bark and what kinds of people he's fine with. And also he'll be barking ferociously, like, let's say the meter reader from Con Ed coming in the house the minute the Con Ed guy, who is always this like, big, burly, really nice guy, starts petting Max. Max is just like, oh, okay, if you're going to worship me, you're welcome. Come on in. And so it's very funny that for all of his bravado, the minute someone offers him pets, he's like, you're good.
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Alison Stewart
Let's talk to Cheryl on line one. Hi, Cheryl, thanks for calling in.
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Cheryl
Hi, guys. Marcia, I'm looking forward to reading your essay tomorrow. I just want to say that as someone who grew up with guns more for sport, I like the marksmanship aspect. However, I do feel that if the NRA felt that there was more of a threat, as in a lot of women, black women and black people were getting their license, maybe they would be more willing to look at the restrictions and the background checks and stuff like that. So as a knee jerk reaction, maybe, I think if it were droves of people applying for their license, I'm just wondering how that might affect how they look at how they regulate gun and gun usage. But I feel also women need to understand how to use guns because you never know what's where, the way things are. I think it's important to also have the knowledge of using guns. A lot of people hurt themselves or their family because they don't know how to use it. So I would encourage people to, like, pick it up just for, you know, as a not craft, but as a hobby, if that works.
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Alison Stewart
Cheryl, have you applied for a gun license?
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Cheryl
I have. I have applied for a gun license. I believe I actually do have one. I have a restaurant in Brooklyn. And so I can also for use it for safety, but it's not something I want to walk with. I don't think it's I don't think guns makes anyone safer.
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Alison Stewart
Yeah.
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Cheryl
But I think, you know, I think it's important to understand a gun should you ever have to use one.
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Alison Stewart
Yeah. Cheryl, thank you so much for calling. My guest is Roxane Gay. Her latest essay is called Stand you'd A Black Feminist Reckoning with America's Gun Problem. She'll be at the Harlem Book Fair tomorrow afternoon to talk a little bit about the piece. When you were buying your gun, when you went to buy your gun, what did you observe about the gun buyer?
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Roxane Gay
Well, I actually, I don't have a gun in New York. Let me be clear.
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Alison Stewart
Yeah.
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Roxane Gay
Because it's just very hard to get one. And it's I don't have that kind of time. We also live in Los Angeles, and that's where I bought the gun. And it was during COVID And so you had to make an appointment and wait in the parking lot before your appointment. And so there were only like two or three people in the store at a time, but it was mostly men. However, what really began the idea for this essay was that I also noticed both at the gun store and at the gun range, a lot of people of color, especially black women, were there. And that forced me to really rethink my preconceived notions about who owns guns, who uses guns, et cetera. And I started talking to other black women and realized there is something here. Black women are arming themselves at unprecedented rates. And statistics, of course, back this up. It's not just anecdotal. And that was really interesting to me because you don't necessarily think of black women. And what the previous caller said, she's onto something interesting. Historically, the only time the NRA has been behind gun checks, background checks, is when black people have in significant numbers, tried to own guns.
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Alison Stewart
We'll continue our conversation with Roxane Gay after a quick break. This is all of it. You're listening to ALL of IT on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart, we're talking with writer Roxane Gay. Her latest essay is called Stand, you'd A Black Feminist Reckoning with America's Gun Problem. It drops tomorrow on subscription publication Everand. Roxane will also be at the Harlem Book Fair tomorrow to talk about the piece. In your piece, you link abortion rights to guns. How are they connected?
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Roxane Gay
Well, as I was thinking through this essay and writing it, I was also reading quite a lot about the overturning of Roe v. Wade and a lot of the legislative attempts that have failed in many states to completely ban abortion. And yet the attempts that have also succeeded and the ways in which in many states, abortion rights have been reduced to nearly nothing. And it just made me realize as a woman, as a person with a uterus, I have more rights as a gun owner than I do as my gender. And that is alarming. And I think everyone should be alarmed about that because women should have bodily autonomy and we should be able to decide what we do with our bodies. And the government should not interfere in our health care. And yet we're so, as a culture, so permissive with regard to guns, especially in states like Texas, Florida. Florida. You know, most states are actually open carry, which people don't realize. I think it's 40 at this point, but actually might even be 45. But, you know, in some states, you don't even need licensing. You can just go buy a gun. There's no waiting period. There's no background check, and that's unconscionable. We have to do more rigorous things to get a pet, to get a car. Like we had to do all kinds of things to get our dog, and rightfully so. Like, it's a responsibility. Driving a car is a responsibility. And so why don't we treat gun ownership in that same way across the country? In California, it's not difficult, but it is. There's a lot of bureaucracy and there should be. And there's a 10 day waiting period and there should be.
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Host 2
Well, there's that old, what is it, the Simpsons. I want to buy a gun now. Like, I'm mad now. He's like, no, three days. No, I'm mad now.
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Alison Stewart
You know, it's interesting, your description of.
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Host 2
Buying it in California, because there are things you have to do. And I thought to myself, I thought gun owners wanted less government in their lives. I think they wanted, you know, get it out. It's not supposed to happen. But they were willing to do it.
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Alison Stewart
To get the gun.
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Roxane Gay
Yes. Well, I mean, that's one of the biggest Legal issues in California is that many second right amendment enthusiasts want there to be fewer strictures. And in fact, a judge in San Diego, a federal judge, actually recently overturned the 10 day waiting period. Oh, it has not happened yet because it's being contested further down the line. I think it's going to go to the, one of the circuits. And so for now there's still that 10 day waiting period. And you can only buy one gun a month only. And so people are trying to get rid of that because they feel like the strictures in California are too rigorous, are too restrictive and it's, they do want less government involved. And as far as I'm concerned, like the more the merrier. If we do not regulate this, what happened in Georgia happens. Like we have parents buying their children AR15s and of course that should unilaterally be banned. And I would say that to anyone any day of the week.
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Alison Stewart
Well, it's interesting.
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Host 2
In Georgia, four people were killed, nine others were injured. The father of the son was charged with involuntary manslaughter, two counts of second degree murder, eight counts of cruelty to children. What do you think about the father being charged?
- [19:45]
Roxane Gay
I think that's perfect. I think that's exactly what should happen. You know, the 14 year old, he's being charged as an adult. And what's interesting is prosecutors in Georgia were quick to say that like within an hour of the shooting. And I don't know what's right, but I also know at 14 years old you don't know anything about anything. You're not fully formed as a human. And should there be consequences for what he did? Absolutely, because he took four people's lives. But he didn't just buy the gun. He didn't just take himself to school. Like people in his life knew that there were problems here. The FBI spoke to both him and his father the previous year and they didn't have probable cause. And the father said he had no access to AR15s. And then months after that, the father bought his son an automatic rifle. So the culpability begins and ends with the father. The son is of course also responsible, but he was clearly raised in an environment where this sort of egregious behavior was enabled. So the father is going to have to answer for that.
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Host 2
Take another call. Richard is calling in from Jersey City. Hi Richard, thank you so much for calling all of it.
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Richard
Hi, glad to hear your voice. I wanted to say that back in the early 90s, I was a member of Act up, the AIDS coalition to unleash power And Queer Nation and other auxiliary groups like that. There was a proposal brought to the floor of ACT UP after a group of fairly high profile queer bashings around Manhattan and Brooklyn that we should all go en masse to down to the gun licensing bureau and apply for licenses and have it reported in the media, figuring that queer bashers would be less likely to mess with people if they knew that we were armed.
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Alison Stewart
What did you think about that?
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Richard
I thought it was a great idea. I would have never gotten a license myself. I thought as a symbolic act it would have been perfect. But it was voted down on the floor of ACT UP because ACT UP is a non violent group. But I thought the idea of it was pretty remarkable and wonderful. Richard, I personally would never own a gun.
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Alison Stewart
Okay, Richard, thank you so much for calling in with that. You know, you talk about. He talked about the ACT UP group. He's talked about. You talk about civil rights in your essay. You talked about Malcolm X, Stokely Carmichael, Black Panther Party. Thinking about guns as a way of protecting oneself under the right circumstance, a legitimate tool. With everything that's changed within the civil rights movement, including the rise in mass shootings, what parts of those ideas hold up? What parts do you think could use some revision?
- [22:26]
Roxane Gay
What's interesting about the civil rights movement is that it took a lot of different strategies to get where we are today. And we still have a long way to go. And so there is. Nonviolence is incredibly important. It really is. And it doesn't mean passivity at all. And anyone who has worked with ACT up, which does incredible work, knows that it's nonviolence. Doesn't mean they're just sitting like a little flower, a wallflower. But many civil rights activists also believed we should fight fire with fire. And I do think that also advanced the movement. And so one of the key things that I think has endured is that we need to take multiple approaches to affecting real change and to effecting like real revolution. We cannot rely on any one strategy. I also think that we live in a world where if. If you want to be perceived as strong, if you want to be perceived as, as worthy of engaging with, you have to make. You have to sort of. I don't even know what the word I'm looking for is here, but you have to project strength. And so you have to think about what are the ways I can best do that. And I don't think that just like waving a gun projects strength. So that's not what I'm saying. But I do think that you need a Show of force. And right now, I think the best force we have is numbers. That the more people who say, like, this is the kind of change we need, whether it's abortion access or addressing racial inequality or police brutality, the better off we'll be. When we look to history, it's because all of these people were fighting toward the same goal. And I do think that's the thing that lasts.
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Alison Stewart
I want to play a clip from.
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Host 2
You, from BoJack Horseman.
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Alison Stewart
It's kind of funny. Not funny. Funny. Not funny.
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Host 2
It's about the gendered role of guns. And this is about after. I believe it's after there's been a mass shooting. And this is the way that Congress and the people react to the. To the shooting. Let's take a listen.
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BoJack Horseman Character 1
I just think this is what happens when you give women guns. They start shooting people with them. I mean, do they even know what guns are for?
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Cheryl
I don't feel safe anymore walking down.
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BoJack Horseman Character 1
My own street alone at night. Me, a man. What are my constituents supposed to do? Not compliment random women on the street because they might be carrying a gun. We cannot allow our lives to be dictated by that kind of fear.
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BoJack Horseman Character 2
Look, all I'm saying is maybe you shouldn't blame women for wanting guns. Maybe you should blame the constant societal messaging that tells us we are safe only as long as the men around us allow us to be. So if you have a problem with women carrying firearms, you could roll up your sleeves and actually work to create a society where women feel safe and equal. Or you can just ban all guns.
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BoJack Horseman Character 1
The ayes have it. Possession of any firearm is now illegal in the state of California. We did it, boys. Huzzah. Congratulations. Fabulous.
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BoJack Horseman Character 2
I really thought that was gonna go the other way.
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Host 2
Wow, Diane, you just passed sensible gun legislation.
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BoJack Horseman Character 2
I can't believe this country hates women more than it loves guns.
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Host 2
No.
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Alison Stewart
What's the most true part of that?
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Roxane Gay
That this country hates women more than it loves guns. I mean, we saw that. We see that time and time again, and let's hope that's changed come November.
- [25:53]
Alison Stewart
You got one minute. If you had to pose a question, Next week's the Debate, pose a question to Harrison Trump, what would it be?
- [26:00]
Roxane Gay
I have nothing to ask Trump because we already know who he is. But I really want to ask Kamala Harris when she will step up and really separate herself from some of Biden's policies with regard to Gaza and develop her own policy and one that is humane and recognizes the extent of the suffering there.
- [26:22]
Alison Stewart
Roxane Gay will be at the Harlem Book Fair tomorrow afternoon to talk about her piece Stand you'd A Black Feminist Reckoning with America's Gun Problem coming to the studio.
- [26:32]
Roxane Gay
Thank you, Alison. It's been a great a BetterHelp ad.
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Host 2
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