Podcast Summary: Saul Williams on 'Sinners' and His Latest Grammy-nominated Album
Podcast: All Of It with Alison Stewart (WNYC)
Episode Date: January 15, 2026
Guest: Saul Williams
Main Themes: Artistry, historical storytelling, collaboration, Black culture, and the power of spoken word
Episode Overview
In this enriching episode, host Alison Stewart interviews Saul Williams—renowned poet, musician, actor, and now Grammy-nominated spoken word artist—about his dual creative projects: his role in the film Sinners and his acclaimed new album Saul Williams meets Carlos Niño and Friends at Tree People. Williams reflects on merging historical narrative, personal legacy, and improvisational artistry, drawing on his experiences both as an actor portraying preachers from the past and as a performer crafting experimental musical poetry. The conversation focuses on the cultural significance of both works, blending personal anecdotes, historical insights, and discussions on collaboration and community.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Portraying a Southern Preacher in 'Sinners'
- Ryan Coogler's Invitation
- Williams shares initial excitement when approached by director Ryan Coogler to play Jedediah, a Southern preacher and sharecropper.
"When I first read the script, I was blown away... My father was a preacher, although he was from Brooklyn, so he wasn't a Southern preacher. But I understood what was going on..." (01:20)
- Williams shares initial excitement when approached by director Ryan Coogler to play Jedediah, a Southern preacher and sharecropper.
- Adopting the Mississippi Accent & Period Speech
- Preparation involved vocal coaching and immersion in the era’s soundscape, including listening to period preachers and blues musicians.
"It's like studying the blues, actually, because there's a lot of synchronicity between just the use of language, you know, from that time period in the south versus how a New Yorker speaks." (03:01)
- Preparation involved vocal coaching and immersion in the era’s soundscape, including listening to period preachers and blues musicians.
- Contrast with Family History
- Williams draws comparisons between his own preacher father and the character, exploring how regional and historical context shapes language and spiritual leadership.
2. Collaborative Improvisation: The Making of the Album
- Long-Standing Partnership with Carlos Niño
- Williams recounts a 25-year creative rapport with Niño, initially as a promoter and DJ, and finally as a musical collaborator.
"Ironically, because we’ve known each other so long, we were excited about the fact that we were going to work together in a creative capacity for the first time." (04:19)
- Williams recounts a 25-year creative rapport with Niño, initially as a promoter and DJ, and finally as a musical collaborator.
- Improvised Live Recording at Tree People
- The album was recorded as a fully improvised concert, unplanned as a commercial release—a spontaneous fusion captured at a Los Angeles ecological amphitheater.
"There was no rehearsal for the musicians on stage in this album. [Carlos] just knew who he could call and who would be ready for an occasion such as that." (06:57)
- The album was recorded as a fully improvised concert, unplanned as a commercial release—a spontaneous fusion captured at a Los Angeles ecological amphitheater.
- Carlos Niño’s Unique Qualities as a Collaborator
- Williams highlights Niño’s expansive musical taste, connections to musicians across generations, and an “extraordinary” ability to listen and curate.
"He’s a wonderful curator... his friends were always extraordinary senior citizens and music people, really important figures... And he’s extremely as a listener." (06:57)
- Williams highlights Niño’s expansive musical taste, connections to musicians across generations, and an “extraordinary” ability to listen and curate.
3. Track Highlights and Artistic Method
- 'The Water Is Rising' featuring Aja Monet (08:45–10:31)
- Williams describes how he spontaneously brought fellow poet Aja Monet on stage, leading to a striking spoken word performance about environmental crisis and collective struggle.
"What you hear is what she did." (08:57)
Sample quote from Monet’s reading:
"The water is rising in the relic of rain... I walk with the runaways..." (09:34)
- Williams describes how he spontaneously brought fellow poet Aja Monet on stage, leading to a striking spoken word performance about environmental crisis and collective struggle.
- On the Power and Purpose of Performance
- Williams discusses performance not as escape, but as a force for social uplift, citing his mother's encouragement to view figures like Paul Robeson as role models.
"It opened my mind to the power, to the power of the choice that I was making, you know... Not entertainment as escape. Right. But entertainment and art used as a propelling force, as an alternative fuel of the progress of society itself..." (14:57)
- Williams discusses performance not as escape, but as a force for social uplift, citing his mother's encouragement to view figures like Paul Robeson as role models.
4. Historical Reflection: Wall Street’s Origins
- Unveiling History through Spoken Word
- Williams narrates the origins of Manhattan’s financial sector as a site of Indigenous exclusion and slave labor, connecting historical injustices to contemporary global issues.
"Wall Street... was built by the Dutch East India Trade Company. It was a wall that was built to keep the Lenni Lenape out... At this market, you could rent slaves because most people could not afford to buy them." (12:26–13:33)
- The track ties the story of Wall Street to ongoing struggles over race, capitalism, and power worldwide.
- Williams narrates the origins of Manhattan’s financial sector as a site of Indigenous exclusion and slave labor, connecting historical injustices to contemporary global issues.
5. On Finding One’s Path (“Lane”) as an Artist and Citizen
- Williams emphasizes personal and cultural self-discovery, inspired by his mother's advice and influenced by early research into Paul Robeson's activism.
"From that point forward... It opened my mind to the power... Not entertainment as escape, but entertainment and art used as a propelling force..." (14:57)
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- On Artistic Collaboration:
“Carlos has an ear that is just a blend of... a wide expanse of appreciation between electronic music, acoustic music and... a beautiful world of sound that he appreciates.” (06:57 - Saul Williams)
- On Cultural Memory:
“There’s so much to pick out, but... it’s like studying the blues... because there’s a lot of synchronicity between just the use of language, you know, from that time period in the south versus how a New Yorker speaks.” (03:01 - Saul Williams)
- On the Marketplace of Wall Street:
“You could rent [slaves]. You could buy furs, pelts, food... They eventually called it the New York Exchange.” (13:33 - Saul Williams)
- On the Responsibility of Art:
“Entertainment and art [can be] used as a propelling force, as an alternative fuel of the progress of society itself, you know, in its ability to uplift and empower...” (14:57 - Saul Williams)
- On Community:
“And that's what I love about him. He's always correct in that sense.” (07:57 - Saul Williams, on Carlos Niño’s ability to build unique artistic ensembles)
Key Segments with Timestamps
- Intro & Role in Sinners (00:09–03:01)
- Accent work & history of preachers (02:07–04:05)
- Story of meeting Carlos Niño & live album genesis (04:19–05:46)
- Description of album process & collaboration qualities (05:49–08:45)
- Track ‘The Water is Rising’ live with Aja Monet (08:45–10:31)
- Origin story of Wall Street (spoken word excerpt) (12:26–13:58)
- On the artist’s “lane” and family influence (14:17–14:57)
Tone & Style
Throughout the episode, Williams’s thoughtful, poetic presence is palpable, blending scholarship, artistic passion, and honesty. Alison Stewart’s inquisitiveness and clear respect for Williams support an atmosphere of engaged cultural critique and celebration.
Takeaway for Listeners
This episode offers a masterclass in how art and history intertwine, highlighting the ways in which collective memory, improvisation, and personal heritage can combine into powerful artistic statements. Williams’s insights on collaboration, activism through art, and reclaiming history make this an essential listen for anyone interested in the intersections of culture, music, and social justice.