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- [00:02]
Host 1
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Dr. Zynga Frazier
Let's go.
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Host 1
Hey, hate to do this. Could we reschedule our morning hike? I was just about to ask the same next week. Yes, it's Dunkin Original blend time.
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Dr. Zynga Frazier
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Host 2
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Dr. Zynga Frazier
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Host 1
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Dr. Zynga Frazier
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Host 1
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Dr. Zynga Frazier
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Host 1
What's a snack wrap?
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Dr. Zynga Frazier
It's the return of something great. So snack wrap is back.
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Host 2
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Host 2
This is all of it on WNYC. I'm Koosha Navadar in for Alison Stewart. 2024 is a big year for New York centennials. It's the 100th anniversary of the founding of the New York State park system. The New York Giants turn 100 in August. And we here at WNYC are about to kick off our 1 100th year on air. The number 100 is is in the air, everyone. It's also the 100th anniversary of the birth of one of the city's most important and inspiring New Yorkers. Shirley Chisholm. The legendary legislator was born in November 1924 in Brooklyn. She went to Girls High in Bedford Stuyvesant, then graduated Brooklyn College. And in 1968, she made history.
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Dr. Zynga Frazier
Not only am I going to be the first congressman, black congressman from Brooklyn.
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Host 1
But also I am going to be.
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Dr. Zynga Frazier
I have become the first black woman.
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Host 1
In this country to go to Congress.
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Host 2
Now, the Museum of the City of New York is marking the centennial of her birth with an exhibition. It's titled Changing the Face of shirley Chisholm at 100. And joining me now to discuss the exhibits, our co curator, Dr. Zynga A. Frazier and Dr. Sarah Seidman. Welcome to all of it, both of you.
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Dr. Zynga Frazier
Thank you.
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Host 1
Thanks so much.
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Host 2
Absolutely. It's such a pleasure to have you here and talk about this exhibit. The title of the exhibit, changing Democracy. I know it's time to the centennial of Shirley Chisholm's birth year, but also it's landing at a time when we're like, in the midst of a presidential election. There's a lot of our democratic norms being challenged. Zynga, let's start with you. When you were putting the exhibit together, how are you thinking of this current.
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Dr. Zynga Frazier
Moment, thinking of the importance of Chisholm providing us a roadmap of how we reimagine democracy? When chisholm runs in 68 or even before, when she runs for the New York State assembly, she's pushing a norm of saying, who should we think should be a part of representative democracy? And the ways in which she tried her best to push a policy agenda that made democracy and made government really speak to the need of marginalized people. And when she runs for the presidency as well, she's trying to form and create coalitions of marginalized people. People who were not a part of the political domain. Right. People who were invisible and unheard. And she tried to represent that coalition of people. And I think we're in a political moment in time where Chisum's words, her policies, her initiatives. Right. Her struggles and triumphs. Right. She, you know, even though this is a triumphant, in many ways exhibit, it's also about the struggles of her pushing really, you know, the powers that be and pushing the status quo. Right. Her deliberate discussion around being unbought and unbossed. What does that mean? Right. What does it mean to reimagine a democracy where an African American woman is at the head, reaching for the highest goal of the country? What does it mean for people who see her when they're running? And so this idea of reimagining what democracy looked like, what it felt like, even what it smelled, all of those kind of senses that Chisholm awakened in a generation of people who are really distraught, Right? So you have the Vietnam War happening. Young people are getting the right to vote. You know, turning 18 and having that ability to vote for the first time.
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Host 2
You know, I hear you talk about continuing conversations in a certain way. You know, Sarah for you, what kind of conversations do you hope that this exhibit evokes for the people going there?
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Host 1
Several, I think as the museum of the City of New York setting, kind of having folks learn more about the New York City networks, the unique, you know, the unique communities in New York City that she emerges from, be it Caribbean American diaspora in Brooklyn or the kind of Brooklyn political scene. So I think learning more about how New York City kind of facilitated her emergence and also just what she stood for and the policy work that people that maybe don't know as much about. More and more people know her name, although not enough. But what did she do? What did she fight for? And so how do you visualize that in a museum exhibit?
- [06:38]
Host 2
That's a really important part of the exhibit. Specifically, when you mentioned Caribbean, one thing that I really appreciated was that the exhibit talks a lot about Shirley's political legacy and her career, which we'll get to in a moment. But one of the things that's so important is it delves into her early years. Right. Like her parents were from Barbados and she spent a few years of her childhood there. What did you want people to make sure that they understood about this part of Shirley Chisholm's background?
- [07:03]
Host 1
Zynga and I talked a lot about how migration is a two way street and not just like one direction to the United States. So I think that's. That's a major point that we wanted to get across. And also. Absolutely, her family and her broader Barbadian and Caribbean American communities in Brooklyn writ large influenced a lot of her, a lot of her positions, her views. Her father was a follower of Mark Scarvey, you know, lots of other things. She follows in the path of other Caribbean black politicians in Brooklyn. So I think the legacy there is really rich.
- [07:40]
Dr. Zynga Frazier
And also the importance of colonialism. Right. People don't think about her understanding of being a colonial subject looks like. And the influence of colonialism in Barbados and also its influence in terms of the economic framework. Right. And the framework of immigrants who are Korean American who are placed or who find themselves in New York City during that time.
- [08:08]
Host 2
Are you thinking of a specific piece of the exhibit when you talk about that, that colonialism and how she sits with it?
- [08:14]
Dr. Zynga Frazier
I think the first part where you see, I guess, the manifest of her going back to Barbados, the other part of it's not only colonialism, but it's also the joy of fighting for space in America. Even though she's Caribbean, we do have her being one of the first proponents of the West Indian Day Parade. In Brooklyn that's still in existence and her connections to that as well as the importance of Carnival. So if we think about someone like a cowboys Davis, who talks about the politics of Carnival and the importance of African diasporic people having a space to be who they are, to embrace their own kind of traditions and cultures and you know, those who, who are familiar with Carn Carnival, even in the West Indian Day Parade, it's not just about gallivanting, as people would say. Right. Because my family's from Jamaica.
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Host 2
Right.
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Dr. Zynga Frazier
So it's not about just dancing and winding up. Right. It's about learning the traditions of Carnival. And so people who play, when you see the, the floats, it's not just about that day. They take months and years to create costumes, to learn about the steel pan, the importance of even Caribbean food. Where does jerk come from? Why, you know, what are those cult kind of connections that connect people to the space and making sure that those connections are passed down to generations.
- [09:46]
Host 2
Yeah. Listeners were talking about the exhibit named Changing the Face of Democracy. Shirley Chisholm at 100. We're celebrating the 100th anniversary of her birth and it's at the Museum of the City of New York now through July of 2025. We're here with Dr. Zynga Frazier and Dr. Sarah Seidman who are the co curators. And another part of this exhibit that I really appreciated was all the audio that was a part of it. You can like pick something up and hear her actually speaking. And one piece that people can listen to is her talking a bit about having an accent. Let's listen to that audio.
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Host 1
When I came to this country because.
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Dr. Zynga Frazier
I had a very, very marked West Indian accent, of course I still have traces of it, but it was very marked with the lilt in my voice and the real sing song in my inflection. And people would laugh or smile or snicker whenever I would speak.
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Host 1
And I became quite conscious of it.
- [10:49]
Host 2
Sarah, why was it important to capture what was important to capture about this time in her life?
- [10:54]
Host 1
That piece really struck me as I was combing through the archives in a lot of ways, just her talking about her childhood, her talking so matter of factly about, you know, being discriminated against, but how she, you know, capitalized on the behavior of others to read a lot. She talks then about how she became somewhat introverted and read vociferously and how that informed her debate powers and her intellect, you know, and her later in life. So as she grew up. So I think, I think both the Hardships that she faced and how she addressed them, like head on was very inspiring to me.
- [11:34]
Host 2
How do you think her Brooklyn childhood influenced her life as an adult?
- [11:39]
Host 1
I think in all ways. Right. I mean, she definitely is so Brooklyn identified. I mean, she talks about living in Brownsville surrounded by Jewish neighbors when it was still largely a Jewish neighborhood. So I think we get at some of the. Or organizing on one of her campaigns in Bushwick and how she basically, like, moved to Bushwick for three days, as she put it, and just, like, organized the women in Bushwick. So I think she. She talks a lot, and that's why we wanted that table with the audio in the middle of the room to really have audiences hear and see her in her own words, pretty directly about the diversity of Brooklyn, about how different New York communities kind of came together and clashed. And that seems like such a quintessential New York story for us.
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Host 2
What was your process like? Zing. I'll send this to you. Of finding that. How did you choose which ones you wanted to pick?
- [12:32]
Dr. Zynga Frazier
I think we wanted to provide a kind of wide array of inserts that talk and speak to Chisholm. I know that we have oral histories from the Shirley Chisholm Project, which is doing this exhibit in conjunction with the museum. And we wanted to make sure that we spoke to, you know, spoke to the depth of who Chisholm was. Right. So she was also someone who spoke fluent Spanish. Right. And so we are one of the. Our exhibit is bilingual. Right. And the importance of Brooklyn is also, as Sarah said, as a diasporic space. It's not just, you know, one thing. It's not just African Americans. It's not just Afro Caribbean. Right. It's Jewish, it's Hispanics. It's a. A mosh of different cultures and ethnicities and perspectives.
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Host 2
There's this other clip that I really enjoyed where she announces her presidential campaign. And generally, I would say that her political career is what she's most known for. And the exhibit goes into details for that. As we said for listeners, just for some context, she became the first black woman elected to Congress in 1968. And in her congressional career, she became a founding member of the Congressional Black Caucus as well as the National Women's Political Caucus. She talked about abortion rights in her first term In Congress in 1972, she ran for president as an outspoken supporter of civil rights, the Equal Rights Amendment, economic justice and Zynga. You mentioned the slogan unbought and unbossed, which was a cultural moment of her time. Here is that Clip that I really enjoyed of her announcing her candidacy for president.
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Host 1
I am not the candidate of black America, although I am black and proud. I am not the candidate of the women's movement of this country, although I am a woman.
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Dr. Zynga Frazier
And I'm equally proud of that.
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Host 1
I am not the candidate of any political bosses or fat cats or special interests.
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Host 2
Just hearing that is really powerful. And, Sarah, I see you nodding your head as you're listening along. What's your reaction to that when you listen to it?
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Host 1
Yeah, it's just great. Every time, I would say, and just, you know, her integrity and has anyone ever had a more perfect political motto that suited their, you know, their M.O. so it's just striking, even, you know, someone who's been working on her for, you know, we've been working on this for two years. Zynga's obviously been working on Chisholm for much longer than that. But still, every time I hear it, I agree it's very powerful and shows her independence, be it, you know, dealing with Democratic political clubs at the very local level in Brooklyn or endorsing Mayor Lindsay when he was an independent at that point and bucking the Democratic Party. So, you know, it's not just a motto or pushing the envelope in Congress. You know, when she enters as a freshman Democrat and they assign her to, like, Rural Agriculture subcommittee, and she responds like what? You heard? A tree grows in Brooklyn. So I'm supposed to be on this committee that doesn't represent my constituents. And she pushes back. So I think we see how powerful the words are, but also a lot of examples in her life where she was living those words.
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Host 2
Yeah, Zynga. How about for you? What's that reaction? Because you've been studying and documenting over 17 years.
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Dr. Zynga Frazier
Yeah, I mean, I think what strikes me now, right, because I'm also finishing up two books on Chisholm, is that she is really trying, as I said before, trying to create a moment where people are connected, to have a coalition base. Right. She knows that she can't win with just African American support. Right. She knows that she can't win just with women and also the political strings and the toll it placed on her. Right. Because African Americans or black people really wanted her to be the black candidate. Women wanted her to be the woman's candidate. Right. And she's saying, I'm actually all of those. So she's also providing analysis of intersectionality before Kimberly Crenshaw comes up with the term. Right. And she is engrossed in black feminism during this time as well. And she's reading people like France Beale and others, black feminist writers at this time. I think people don't necessarily, you know, she's a smart woman, but she's, as Sarah said, she's a vociferous reader, but she's ingrained in that kind of ideology. Right. And so those things really impact her thinking about what. What do I bring as a presidential candidate? What can I do? And her belief was, if we had a coalition of marginalized people, if they see themselves through me as being the person who has the least, who's low on the totem pole in society, running for this and speaking to their needs, what does that mean for us? How can we really gain political power? She's not doing it as a fly by night. She's really strategically thinking, how do we create this coalition? And it's the same coalition as we look at today as a political scientist that Obama wins on. Right. It's not a fly by night if you're able to have the networks. Unfortunately, Chisholm didn't have the money, she didn't have the structure, she didn't have the people on the ground as much. But she creates a roadmap that Jesse Jackson connects to and then you can trace that longevity to Barack Obama when he first runs.
- [18:29]
Host 2
Was that part of what you wanted to do with the exhibit was show the longevity and the way that her approach and her conception to politics would echo after.
- [18:39]
Dr. Zynga Frazier
Yeah, I mean, everything I do for Chisholm is two words, political strategist. Right. Because we place her as this first and symbolic person that erases all the kind of strategy and genius of her. And it was very important in terms of the ways in I present and the ways that Sarah and I discuss the exhibit is really to show her political genius and her strategy.
- [19:08]
Host 2
Well, you know, it's impossible to view this exhibit and not think, wow, a lot of the work is still undone. And I mean, we talked. You mentioned this early, earlier, like the conversation is still going on that idea of the work not being done but still having hope, I guess, if you can use that word, how did you approach that? Because the exhibit does feel relatively optimistic, but you take a step back sometimes. Maybe that's a question of if you could feel. So how did you approach. I'm sure that crossed your mind.
- [19:34]
Dr. Zynga Frazier
I don't know if I was optimistic, though. I mean, I think she's trying to reimagine if that's optimistic. I think she's still very pragmatic and it actually feels sad and melancholy at the end to me, just because where we go in 72 and maybe in the early 80s and where we are in 2020 you4 is a melancholy moment like we did not heed. I think, as, you know, as. As a nation, we're not heeding Chisholm. We do need Chisholm right now. So the Faith Ringo piece that says surely help us, I think does resonate to this political moment. I'm not trying to, you know. Well, I'm a political scientist, so I can talk to politics, right. So I think that we're in. We're in this moment where it's a sad moment that we got to, you know, we're in a political moment where a woman still hasn't broken that ceiling that we, you know, yes, we have Kamala Harris, but when she was running, that no one still has gotten to the convention floor that Chisolm got to in 72. And that's not a forward move, I don't think.
- [20:53]
Host 2
Yeah, go ahead, sir.
- [20:57]
Host 1
I totally agree. And I think as a. Right. As a historian, I also curate Activist New York at the Museum of the City of New York. And sometimes it's hard to know where to end and on what note, given the challenges we face today. But I do try to take comfort in the subsequent generations who are inspired by figures such as Chisum. One of the reasons we wanted the show open all year, so we could have field trips and, like, school programs that come in and have, you know, work with. With Doe on civics for all. So I think, you know, trying to. Trying to educate the next generation and maybe they can. Maybe they can take on some of this. Let's hope.
- [21:36]
Host 2
You know what was another thing that was really cool about the exhibit was the voting booth, because you have an actual pull the lever voting booth was perfect for an election year, by the way. It's from the 1972 presidential primary election in June, and Shirley's name is at the top of the ballot. And then you have the other names that go down, some of them, Hubert Humphrey, Edward Kennedy, et cetera. Sarah, what made you want to include an actual voting booth? Where'd you get it from?
- [21:59]
Host 1
We got it from the Board of Elections. It was fantastic to work with them. And yeah, I think we're always trying to think about ways to have folks interact, you know, either digitally, but also just analog, using their hands and voting. So there are still many of them in a warehouse, and we are lucky enough to borrow one. And so far, folks, folks seem to love it.
- [22:24]
Host 2
Wow.
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Host 1
Yeah.
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Host 2
Is it interesting to actually go through that process. Because I'm sure you've played around with it a little bit. Right. What does it feel like to actually pull the lever?
- [22:32]
Host 1
Yeah, I mean, I remember those voting machines. They haven't been out of commission for that long. But it does feel like you're, I don't know, accomplishing something with the pushing of the levers. And yeah, we added all of the major figures in the national election, not all of whom appeared on the New York ballot. So it's slightly, you know, symbolic, but we invite people to vote often, you know, for once. So, yeah, I think it's. I think it's fun as well as reminds people of, like, the act of voting. And also have a QR code for folks who want to register to vote themselves in this year's election.
- [23:09]
Host 2
Wow. And we do have the audio of lever polling, which I would love to just play really quick. Here it is. It is so tactile. I love how tactile that sound is. I'm looking at the clock. We're just coming up. But there's another important element of here of Shirley Chisholm's story and that. That's being bilingual. And zing. I want to ask you, the exhibit itself is bilingual as well. Can you talk to us about why you made that choice?
- [23:32]
Dr. Zynga Frazier
I think mainly because Chisholm was bilingual and she felt the way she understood the importance of speaking in a language to people that was other than English. And so I think that was a definite decision and commitment of the exhibit and the museum to do that work and have it be able to be engaged by other constituencies.
- [24:03]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [24:03]
Host 1
And to build on other shows that we're doing. We have a show up on Manny Vega right now, East Harlem artist. And that's also bilingual show in Spanish and English. So also just, you know, recognizing our location and wanting folks to know that they can come see shows in both languages.
- [24:21]
Host 2
Well, if you would like to go see the show, it is called the Changing the Face of Democracy. It's the Shirley Chisholm at 100. It's at the Museum of the City of New York now through July of 2025. We've been joined by Dr. Zynga Frazier and Dr. Sarah Sedman, who are the sideman. Sorry, who are the. The co creators. Thank you both so much for this work and for coming by.
- [24:40]
Host 1
Thanks so much. It's been great.
- [24:43]
Host 2
And that's our show for today. Coming up in just a minute. In a special Juneteenth celebration from Notes from America, Kai Wright goes to Houston, Texas to explore the impact of black liberation on today's politics and democracy. That's next right here on wnyc. So stay with us.
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Host 1
Hey, hate to do this. Could we reschedule our morning hike? I was just about to ask the same next week. Yes, it's Dunkin original blend time.
- [25:13]
Dr. Zynga Frazier
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Host 1
Sure thing.
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Dr. Zynga Frazier
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