Podcast Summary: "Should Photos Be Banned in Museums?"

Podcast: All Of It
Host: Alison Stewart (A)
Guest: Will Pavia (B), New York Correspondent, The Times
Date: November 20, 2025

Main Theme & Purpose

This episode of All Of It dives into the increasingly debated question: Should photos be banned in museums? Using the Frick Collection’s strict no-photography policy as a jumping-off point, host Alison Stewart and guest Will Pavia (who reported on this for The Times) examine how museum photography impacts the visitor experience, art appreciation, and museum practices. The discussion features a range of perspectives—from museum visitors, artists, educators, and museum professionals—on whether snapping pictures enhances or detracts from art engagement.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Background: The Frick’s "No Photos" Rule (02:26 - 03:42)

• The Frick’s Policy:
  • Signage and staff strictly enforce a photography ban.
  • Pavia explains they briefly permitted photos in 2014, but it led to chaos with people backing into each other in the museum’s narrow corridors; the ban quickly returned.
    • Quote (B): “For a few weeks they decided it was a disaster. People were backing into each other in corridors.” (02:49)
• Comparison to Other Museums:
  • Other institutions (like the Whitney or MoMA) incorporate or encourage photography, sometimes curating exhibitions for social media engagement.

The Visitor Experience—Engagement vs. Distraction

• Frick Visitors: Art as Sacred Experience (03:50 - 04:29)
  • Visitors liken the atmosphere to a church, appreciating the enforced focus on art.
  • Quote (B): “They would sort of talk about almost being like in church and sort of communing with the art.” (04:22)
• Secret Shutterbugs:
  • Despite the ban, some visitors sneak photos in subtle ways—“shot from the hip, almost like a sort of drive by” (B, 04:02).
• MoMA & “The Mosh Pit” (04:58)
  • At MoMA, crowds gather for selfies with art, with one visitor humorously describing it as “the mosh pit in front of a Van Gogh.”
    • Quote (B): “She very proudly showed me a picture…you could see a Starry Night through three cell phones.” (05:05)

Is Photo-Banning Elitist? (04:33 - 04:58)

• Some visitors argue bans are “elitist,” particularly detrimental to smaller museums that benefit from free advertising via visitor photos.

How Camera Bans Change Experience (05:45 - 06:27)

• For Pavia, the absence of phones increased focus and presence, describing the Frick as “a very pure experience.”
• Lack of explanatory placards further encourages contemplation.

Listener Perspectives (06:49 – 17:38)

Calls and Texts Highlight These Themes:

• Distraction & Ownership (Don, 06:49):
  • Difficulty “living in the moment” as people seek to own and share their experience.
  • Comparison to concerts: phone-users block views and alter the communal experience.
    • Quote (C): “To me, it seems kind of sad. It's great that they're sharing the event, but it's not great that they're not taking it in as much as they could.” (07:31)
• Generational Shift (Jack, 07:49):
  • Older patrons, former MoMA staff, value the “ambiance” and see photography as a distraction.
• Photos as Personal Research (Text, 08:59):
  • For some, taking photos is like “bookmarking” pieces for later study.
• Impact on Memory (09:14 - 09:45):
  • Pavia cites studies: people remember less if they just snap a photo, but remember more if they zoom in and engage with a detail.

Safety and Art Protection (09:45 - 10:39)

• Incidents from Selfies:
  • Reports of museum accidents—from Florence to the Frick—underscore photo bans as partly protective, especially in cramped galleries.
  • Quote (B): “At the Louvre…there's lots of room in front of the Mona Lisa...but certainly at the Frick…we don't have people waving around selfie sticks.” (10:15)

Museums as Active, Conversational Spaces (10:43 - 11:54)

• Not Everyone Wants Silence (Max, 10:43):
  • Pushback against the idea museums must be as quiet as churches; encouragement for discussion is viewed as vital.
• Phones as a Form of Engagement (11:20 - 11:54):
  • Pavia: “Some people now…react with the phone. And some of what art does is the same thing that someone does when they put something on Instagram…”

The Case for Allowing Photos

• Access and Equity (Sarah from the Bronx, 13:44):
  • Photos allow for personal archives without expensive catalogs.
  • Not about social sharing; about accessibility and deeper enjoyment.
• Education (Eric, professor, 15:17):
  • Pictures help students study and remember art for projects.
    • Quote (C): “As an educator, I would only support students taking pictures to study the work afterwards…” (15:56)
• Experience of Details (Jeff, 16:29):
  • Large, intricate works (e.g. Bosch in the Prado) are hard to appreciate fully without the ability to photograph and zoom in.
  • Some museums offer digital aids, but personal photos allow tailored engagement.

Artistic Inspiration and Use Cases (17:42 - 18:23)

• Pavia reflects on how creatives like restaurateur Keith McNally derive inspiration from museum visits—sometimes from a mere tile or sculpture—making personal photography a creative tool.

Self-Reflection by Host and Guest (19:52 - 20:43)

• Both Stewart and Pavia admit to taking photos for work or study, but feel conflicted when others’ photo-taking impedes their personal art viewing.
• Quote (A): “I'm really frustrated by the people taking pictures. It's an interesting dilemma.” (19:48)

The Selfie vs. the Snapshot (20:43 - 21:15)

• Distinction drawn: casual photos of art versus selfies “for the ‘gram” provoke different responses.
• Quote (A): “This is a good text, it says it's the selfies that are the problem.” (20:43)

Marketing & Museum Reach (Cheryl, former museum marketer, 21:24):

• Banning photos can drive “FOMO” and word of mouth, its own form of advertising.
• Museums can curate online experiences, controlling what’s shared.
• For some, scarcity creates demand.

Small Museums Need Photography (Christopher, Museum of the Dog, 25:11):

• User-generated photos are vital free marketing and community engagement, especially for niche or smaller museums.
• Social media content showcases unique visitor experiences.

Etiquette and Compromise (26:24 – 24:55)

• Texts and callers suggest that the real issue is etiquette—respecting others’ space—rather than simply documenting art.
• Suggestions arise for “photo hours” or specific times when photography is permitted, similar to dog hours in public parks.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Sneaky Photography:
  “She kind of shot from the hip, almost like a sort of drive by kind of thing.” (B, 04:02)
• On “The Mosh Pit” at MoMA:
  “You could see a Starry Night through three cell phones.” (B, 05:17)
• On the Value of Presence:
  “I suppose at the Frick, you have to put your phone away and so no one texts you and you just look at the paintings … I think it is a very pure experience in that respect.” (B, 05:45)
• On Museums and Marketing:
  “If you are a museum in Dayton, Ohio, it's really helpful if people are going around taking pictures of themselves with the artwork… it functions as a way of advertising what they have.” (B, 12:49)
• On Selfies vs. Art Photos:
  “Is there a difference between a selfie and taking a picture?” (A, 20:49)

Timestamps for Major Segments

• Frick’s Photography Ban and Reasoning: 02:26 – 03:42
• How Visitors Experience Bans: 03:50 – 06:27
• Listener Calls & Perspectives: 06:49 – 18:23
• Host/Guest Self-Reflection: 19:52 – 20:43
• Selfies vs. Art Photos: 20:43 – 21:15
• Museum Marketing Take: 21:24 – 22:53
• Artist/Small Museum View: 23:04 – 26:24
• Etiquette & Compromise Ideas: 24:46 – 24:55
• Guard Perspective: 27:00 – 27:25

Conclusion

The debate around museum photography is anything but trivial. While some argue photo bans foster a meditative, focused engagement with art, others champion the accessibility, memory, and creative potential unlocked by personal photos. The episode is a lively survey of the full spectrum of opinion—from museum marketers to practicing artists—hinting that the solution may not be an all-or-nothing rule, but nuanced options that respect both art and audience. As Stewart observes, the dilemma is real: “I'm really frustrated by the people taking pictures. It's an interesting dilemma.” (19:48)

Bottom line: There’s no single approach that works for every visitor or institution. But respectful etiquette, clear policy, and creative compromise may yet bridge the “small stakes, big opinions” divide.