Should Podcasts Be Videos? (Small Stakes, Big Opinions)

Summary

Title: All Of It
Episode: Should Podcasts Be Videos? (Small Stakes, Big Opinions)
Host: Alison Stewart
Release Date: July 28, 2025

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Introduction: The Rise of Video in Podcasting

In this episode of WNYC's All Of It, host Alison Stewart explores the burgeoning trend of video integration in podcasting. Titled "Should Podcasts Be Videos? (Small Stakes, Big Opinions)," the discussion delves into whether the traditional audio-first medium of podcasts is being reshaped by the visual demands of social media and digital platforms.

The Evolution of Podcasts into Video Formats

Alison Stewart opens the conversation by highlighting the visible shift many podcasts have made towards incorporating video elements. She muses, “Has podcasting gone visual or just gone viral?” ([00:09]). Inviting Nick Kwa, Vulture's podcast critic, into the dialogue, she seeks to uncover the motivations and implications behind this transformation.

Nick Kwa traces the origins of video podcasting to early adopters like Joe Rogan and Marc Maron, who began uploading their shows to platforms like YouTube around 2013-2014 ([01:43]). He notes that while podcasting traditionally referred to both audio and video content distributed via RSS feeds, the recent surge in video content is largely a response to the monetization opportunities presented by platforms like YouTube and Spotify ([02:15], [04:38]).

“Podcasting had, to some extent, many early podcasts posting video on YouTube… but now YouTube is a primary distributor of podcasts.”
— Nick Kwa ([02:25])

Commercial Drivers Behind Video Integration

Kwa emphasizes that the push towards video podcasts is primarily commercially driven. He explains that YouTube and similar platforms offer more lucrative advertising rates compared to traditional audio formats ([04:38]). This financial incentive motivates podcasters to adopt video to tap into the substantial advertising revenue available through these channels.

“A lot of brands are advertising through the platform and are comfortable and understand how to buy ads on YouTube.”
— Nick Kwa ([04:38])

He further points out that video allows for greater discoverability through social media, with short-form clips potentially attracting new listeners who might then engage with longer audio episodes ([06:33]).

Listener Feedback: The Impact of Video on the Podcast Experience

The episode transitions to listener interactions, presenting a range of opinions on video podcasts through its "Small Stakes, Big Opinions" segment.

Charles from the Upper West Side expresses a preference for audio-only podcasts, arguing that visual elements can detract from the intimacy and focus on the conversation.

“It's like Apple putting a camera in a phone. It takes away from the voice, it takes away from who you are.”
— Charles ([08:31])

Similarly, Anna from Tenafly, New Jersey, highlights how audio podcasts allow for more careful listening without the distractions of visual stimuli.

“I listen more carefully without the distractions of looking at the people… I infer that from the tone of their voice and the nature of their conversation.”
— Anna ([19:31])

In contrast, Kay from Rochester appreciates video podcasts when hosted by individuals who prioritize content over appearance, demonstrating that visual elements can complement rather than overshadow the conversation.

“I am riveted to her words.”
— Kay ([22:38]-[24:14])

Generational Perspectives: Younger Audiences and Video Consumption

Nick Kwa identifies a generational divide in podcast consumption habits. Younger listeners, particularly Gen Z and early millennials, are more inclined towards video content and short-form videos prevalent on social media platforms.

“The language of 2025 on the Internet is principally video and it's principally short form video.”
— Nick Kwa ([20:27])

This shift suggests that video podcasts might be more appealing to these demographics, potentially altering the traditional podcast landscape dominated by audio formats.

Economic and Creative Impacts on Podcasting

Stewart and Kwa discuss the broader implications of video integration on the podcasting industry. Kwa argues that video podcasts often favor conversational formats, potentially limiting the diversity of podcast genres and impacting the development of more complex audio narratives like documentaries.

“Video has not been able to support audio documentaries, for example. And I think that we're seeing that in the money that's supporting that genre, which is declining.”
— Nick Kwa ([09:17]-[11:12])

Alison Stewart raises concerns about gatekeeping, suggesting that the necessity for video production might raise barriers for creators who excel in audio-only formats. Kwa counters by noting that platforms like YouTube still maintain low barriers to entry, allowing diverse content regardless of video inclusion.

“You could say there's maybe a higher threshold of acceptable quality, but that was also true the case for podcasting when it was just audio.”
— Nick Kwa ([16:45])

The Future of Audio and Video Podcast Coexistence

As the episode draws to a close, Stewart and Kwa ponder whether there is room for both audio and video podcasts to coexist. Despite the commercial benefits of video integration, it remains uncertain if this trend will universally benefit the podcasting medium or marginalize those who prefer traditional audio formats.

“We will find that's the answer at this point in time.”
— Kay, Caller ([24:26])

Conclusion: Balancing Commercial Interests and Creative Integrity

"Should Podcasts Be Videos? (Small Stakes, Big Opinions)" offers a comprehensive exploration of the intersection between commercial imperatives and the creative integrity of podcasting. Through expert analysis and diverse listener opinions, the episode underscores the ongoing debate about the optimal medium for storytelling and cultural discourse in the digital age. As podcasting continues to evolve, the balance between audio and visual elements will likely shape the future landscape of this influential medium.

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Notable Quotes:

• “A lot of brands are advertising through the platform and are comfortable and understand how to buy ads on YouTube.”
  — Nick Kwa ([04:38])

• “It's like Apple putting a camera in a phone. It takes away from the voice, it takes away from who you are.”
  — Charles ([08:31])

• “I listen more carefully without the distractions of looking at the people… I infer that from the tone of their voice and the nature of their conversation.”
  — Anna ([19:31])

• “Video has not been able to support audio documentaries, for example. And I think that we're seeing that in the money that's supporting that genre, which is declining.”
  — Nick Kwa ([09:17]-[11:12])

• “We will find that's the answer at this point in time.”
  — Kay, Caller ([24:26])

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This summary encapsulates the key discussions and insights from the episode, providing a comprehensive overview for those who have not listened to the full conversation.

Transcript

[Alison Stewart]

Foreign.

You're listening to all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. Okay, you've seen the social media clips. Two people on a couch, oversized headphones, a couple of microphones, and a ring light just out of frame. Has podcasting gone visual or. Or just gone viral? Some shows are launching with video from the start. Others are retrofitting their setups, trying to keep up with what works on YouTube. A billion people a month are viewing podcasts. But what happens when an audio first medium starts chasing the social media scroll? Has video killed the podcast star? Podcast critic Nick Kwa wrote about this shift for Vulture. And now the New York Times is weighing in too, calling it the great podcast pivot. For this edition of Small Stakes, Big Opinions, we're asking Nick Qua and you, our WNYC radio listeners, is video good for the audio industry? Will it help medium gain new listeners? Is it good for listeners? Does anything get lost along the way? Is it a podcast? If you have to watch it, give us a call now. 212-433-969-2212, wnyc. You can call in, you can join us on air, or you can reach out via social media, or you can text that number. Our social media, by the way, is llofit wnyc. Hey, Nick, how are you doing?

[Nick Kwa]

Good. How are you?

[Alison Stewart]

I am doing well. When did you first start noticing podcasting branching out into video?

[Nick Kwa]

So podcasting had, to some extent, many. It's gonna be earlier podcasts. When you kind of think about 2014, 13, when you think about something like the Joe Rogan experience, they've always been posting like, like video on YouTube in particular. And I remember about 10 years ago, like, you would also find something like WTF of Marc Maron or something like the Read, which are conversational podcasts. They would throw up the audio file on YouTube and slap on the show tiles. Now, you can also go a little bit further beyond that because podcasts and the original conception of the technology refer to both audio and video on demand. That's, you know, distributed over RSS feeds, and you can access it through the Apple podcasts or itunes store. Uh, but the current iteration where we're thinking about this, the aesthetics, you're talking about, like, which is so prevalent that there are commercials of fake people making podcasts to sell pharmaceuticals, for example, that has been a couple, just past couple of years. And it's. It's sort of. I first started noticing when Spotify tried to add video components or. And they continue to add video component to their, to many of their podcast products or podcast shows that they produce. Um, but it of course, like where we are right now is driven principally by YouTube kind of, I suppose you could argue noticing what, what's been happening in your backyard and going, I see people trying to take this sort of video podcast stuff. I'm just going to label that we've always been here and, and now YouTube is a primary distributor of podcasts. You can contest that concept, you can contest that notion on a bunch of different technical terms. Right now I think if you ask your average 20 something year old on the street, like, do you consumer podcast? They probably will say that they are doing so over YouTube.

[Alison Stewart]

Let's talk about how these video podcasts, when they, what do they first look like and what have they evolved into?

[Nick Kwa]

So again, if we come back to one of these sort of art examples of this, which is, which would be the Jorgen experience, it looks virtually unchanged when it's first started publishing on YouTube way back when. But a lot of the newer generation types, you know, if you think about something like call her daddy. If you think about something like, you know, Amy Poehler just launched a new show called Get Hang. Like there is this kind of, you know, it's a studio that you can look at and the studio has a lot of endorsements on its walls. Sometimes it's, you know, pictures, sometimes it's. A lot of it is neon lights for whatever, for whatever. Example, Andrew Schultz's flagrant has a couch and so it kind of looks like a slightly gussied up version of a cable access talk show. You know, you kind of think about like Wayne's World, but a little neater and nice and more airspace y. I think that's the way I would sort of phrase a lot of these compositions.

[Caller]

This is a little bit of an odd question, but what seemed to be the goal of adding video to audio contests?

[Nick Kwa]

So principally my understanding of the reason that they add video is because that's where the money is. YouTube is the current driver of a tremendous amount of money when it comes to what we think about as digital video. YouTube wasn't always just synonymous. I mean like digital video wasn't once only synonymous with, with YouTube. But right now, when you kind of think about just the sheer number of influencers and creators in our lives, a lot of them came up through that system and through that platform and that's where a lot of the money is. A lot of brands are advertising through the platform and a lot of brands are comfortable and they understand how to buy like ads on, on shows on YouTube. And so, you know, the way you could sort of think about is, is that a lot of the podcast business between 2012 to 2021, 22, there was always this question of when will it sort of really, really explode in terms of its market, in terms of its industrial revenue. And I think it's pretty straightforward to say that they looked at videos as a good way to set Adext in the mix. And now that YouTube is kind of responding and kind of like come into our house, it's very much revenue oriented. There's a secondary answer, which is a lot of the newer generation podcasts that are built specifically for video, they do find a lot of benefit from being able to travel through social on video. So there's been a long conversation in the audio podcast community about whether audio can go viral, about discoverability, how do you find out about your favorite new favorite podcast? And often that meant word of mouth. Some people who have the privilege and luxury of reading me will discover new podcasts through my own curation. But these days, I mean, the language of 2025 on the Internet is principally video and it's principally short from video. So there's an element where if it travels on social. The idea and the hope is that you trickle down, you trickle Back to the 4 hour, 5 hour episode after you see a clip on Instagram, who's.

[Caller]

Been successful at that.

[Nick Kwa]

Well, that's interesting. I mean, so you have the sort of big, the biggies, right? So shows like Call Her Daddy, shows like again, Joe Rogan, the Ovon, the sort of class of podcasters that you think are on top of mind right now. They're all beneficiaries of video in the long form and video in the short form. There's also an interesting sub breed of show of podcasts that seems to be more successful on social video than actually the podcast. A podcast that kind of fits into this is something called, I believe they call it MD Foodie Boys or MC Foodie Boys. So it's a bunch of adolescents talking about food and other things. Uh, and my colleague over at the Cut wrote about them not too long ago. And what's interesting about the metrics there is that their social numbers do a lot better than their actual YouTube numbers or the actual long phone numbers, at least at the time of the of the report. I haven't gone back and taken a look at that. So there is that kind of reversed phenomenon that's happening to some extent.

[Caller]

We are talking about podcasts Pivot to video listeners. Small stakes, big opinions. We want to know do you prefer watching a podcast or just listening? Tell us why. All right, Phone number is 2124-3396-9221-2433 wnyc. You can call us or text us at that number. My guest is Nick kwa, Vulture's podcast critic. Okay, here are some texts we got. When podcasts have video, it's a very different experience. Less intimate. Watching adds a layer, but takes away the concentration on what's being said. More professionalized and therefore less raw and seemingly spontaneous means the guests are more polished. People who are dress lit for video, all those guests are more useful to being on camera. Another one says, more and more podcasts refer to images I can't see. I'm feel like I'm losing something. Let's talk to Charles, who's calling in from the Upper west side. Hi, Charles, thanks for making the time to call, all of it.

[Alison Stewart]

Thank you. Well, listen, having a voice like yours come across, it's almost like you'd be. It's like Apple putting a camera in a phone. It takes away from the voice, it takes away from who you are. And it's like two versions of just one thing that really gets to the point I can only see it happening if someone was handicapped for the video. Outside of that, Alison, you're fantastic. Keep doing that.

[Caller]

Thank you, Charles. I appreciate the compliments. What is the difference between a video podcast and an audio only podcast? What have you noticed is the difference between the two?

[Nick Kwa]

So at the most sort of conceptual level, the video podcast can only support and cater a certain kind of podcast ultimately. And understand that's a big category. It is like the conversational, the interview show thing shows that could basically be live to tape, right? You don't necessarily need to. You can't necessarily cut in new segments like something like this American Life or Radiolab. It's very difficult to conceptualize a version of that show that can be sort of produced in terms of video. And so if you kind of just sort of think about the kinds of video podcasts that you're seeing traveling around the Internet, it is the conversational talk show style. Now there are certain operations that's trying to sort of split difference. One that I'm thinking of in particular is Pablo Torre finds out he's a former ESPN sort of video anchor, I suppose you could use that phrase. And he is doing a mix of conversational interviews and conversational sort of episodes. But also he's trying to do these Sort of narrative documentaries. And he does that by getting the person who's reported out the story onto the show and telling the story as if it's live. And so there are certain constraints and this sort of video component only makes sense to a certain point. But as a result of this sort of like the way it privileges this form over the other, it has reallocated in terms of how people think about when they make shows, what kinds of shows are being made. So video has not been able to support audio documentaries, for example. And I think that we're seeing that in the money that's supporting that genre, which is declining and things like that. And so, you know, it's not a trend that benefits everybody. I should also say video privileges people who look good on video or who look interesting on video.

[Alison Stewart]

Well, that's what everybody says. Everybody says, I would have gone into broadcast journalism if I wanted to be on camera.

[Nick Kwa]

Right. That was a quote that somebody gave me when I first reported out a version of this piece last year. And I think about it a lot. And I think about it especially when I go on podcasts now. Like, I always, I forget these days it's supposed to be look, look okay for a camera so they can clip it and put it in social. I like to do these spots like having just rolled out of bed and not having to think about doing my hair over. I was, I thought, not a fan personally.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Alison Stewart]

The last time I was on TV was seven years ago. Regularly.

[Nick Kwa]

Right, right.

[Alison Stewart]

I was used to it. I was on TV for a long time. I went to radio for a reason.

[Nick Kwa]

Right.

[Alison Stewart]

The idea of coming to video is like, ah, they want to put a video camera in here. I don't know how I feel about that.

[Nick Kwa]

Absolutely. And then you have to think about body language. You gotta hold your body a certain way, you gotta look like you're interested and things like that. And, you know, this is a lot of work. You know, sometimes I just want a conversation and I want to stare off into, you know, my Pendaflor lamp as I listen to the response. And that's, that's a really important skill, you know.

[Alison Stewart]

Well, I had Morgan Specter from the golden age in here and he was like, wow, radio is really different. It's really different. He was like on this, he'd been on this big publicity tour. He's like, I don't think I've ever actually been on the radio before. And he really kind of liked it because we went in different directions and we made faces at each other when a caller called in, it was there's something kind of intimate about radio. That's my opinion.

[Nick Kwa]

Oh yeah, that's the classic buzzword key phrase when it comes to audio and radio. But I will nuance this by saying that I think the kind of, the pressing towards a certain kind of aesthetic and a certain kind of show as a result of video podcasting, I don't necessarily think it's determined like it's self determined. It is the type of show that gets supported the most by the platform and the revenues. We could come up with crazier, wackier looking video podcasts, more interesting to look at video podcasts. But this is more of a question of economics and a question of what audiences can take in order to get from 0 to 1.

[Alison Stewart]

I want to ask you one question before we go to a quick break. This is a question for you, if you can answer it. How Long does a YouTuber audio recording need to be to qualify as a podcast?

[Nick Kwa]

How many minutes by YouTube to be counted as a view? I guess so for YouTube to be counted as a view, I believe it's like anywhere for a couple of seconds to be sort of considered. Oh, like that is that adds to the view count. If you're talking about how long it has to be or what the shape of a podcast needs to be to fit the conceptual, technical, conceptual definition of podcast, I do not know what to tell you because you know, that's kind of not how redefine the category and the concept these days. And there's a huge identity crisis that the podcasting is going through right now as a result of the squishiness of this question.

[Alison Stewart]

My guest is Nick kwa, Vulture's podcast critic. We are talking about podcasts turning to video. It's a small stakes, big opinion segment. We want to know do you prefer watching a podcast or just listening and why? Give us a call 2124-3396-9221-2433. WNYC. We'll have more after a quick break.

Foreign.

You'Re listening to all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. My guest is Nick kwa, Vultures podcast critic. He's joining us for our small stakes big opinions. We want to know do you prefer watching a podcast or just listening and why? Give us a call at 2124-3396-9221-2433. WNYC. Let's talk to Dorian from. Hi Dorian, thanks for making the time to call all of it.

Hi, thanks. So I have sort of a comment that's also a question, which is. It seems to me that the move to video is largely commercially driven because the rates for advertising on video, the amount that's paid for ads on video, are a lot more than the ad rates for audio. And therefore people can collect not only the audio advertising, but the higher ad rates on video, which has driven a lot of this also. I'll just say, Allison, you were great on tv. I remember you with that. I remember you with Anderson Cooper and you were great.

That guy, I wonder what happened to him. Anyway, thanks for calling. I wanted to get your response.

[Nick Kwa]

Yeah, it's actually the other way around. It used to be the case that audio ads on podcasts, which is this audio only, they actually are more valuable per spot. But the. What the sort of. Yes, the call is absolutely right. It is commercially driven. It's commercially driven insofar as there are just more audiences in video. There's more defined audiences and more defined advertising products that brands and advertisers are comfortable buying into with video at scale. So that's, that's the thing that's driving a lot of caller's. Absolutely right. But again, it's like it. It's mostly a certain kind of show that gets the benefit from this. And that's why we're seeing an explosion of again, a certain kind of show and aesthetic.

[Alison Stewart]

It's kind of interesting because audio, there was no gatekeeper. It could be two people with a microphone. But now the setups are getting pretty intense for these videos. They're getting cameras and lightings and multi camera editing. I'm wondering, is it changing the gatekeepers?

[Nick Kwa]

So I'm thinking about two things with this one. I think it's actually a tenuous relationship where we still don't know whether a higher quality video experience translates into bigger listenership because we have to drill back into the question of what exactly the user behavior is. And I actually still think that this is very. It's still unexamined, it's still not particularly clear, despite however long that New York Times article was. Um, my gut feeling is that a lot of the way that this is consumed is it's thrown on in the background. Right. I used to go into my doctor's office when I lived in Boise, Idaho. And like when I walk in, the Receptionist has Conan O' Brien's podcast YouTube video going on in the background, but she's not looking at it because she's doing work. So it functions like radio. And it's unclear whether the video component is why People go to it, whether they actually watching all four, three to four hours of the video component. And I will also say that YouTube itself, you could argue, is kind of low barriers to entry. Anybody can publish to YouTube, anybody can try to game the algorithm. Anybody can try to benefit from the network effects of YouTube. So those two things actually kind of complicate the notion of whether there's a higher gatekeeping. You could say there's maybe a higher threshold of acceptable quality. But that was also true the case for podcasting when it was just audio. I have a lot of time for poorly edited, scratchy sounding podcast that's just audio. If it's specifically about something that I like. For example, like my favorite Oklahoma City Thunder podcast, I could listen to four hours of that even though it sounds like garbage. And I think it's also true for YouTube videos. Like there are some really kind of not particularly well put together YouTube videos that can still really benefit from the algorithm.

[Alison Stewart]

This is an interesting text. I'm not saying clips don't pull me in from social media, but I almost never watch the full show. If I'm interested in a show's topic and have to, I will listen and likely never take a look at the screen. I need to multitask.

[Nick Kwa]

That is, I mean, that's a very good point. Like, we still don't know if the widespread of social clips actually translates into actual listenerships of the full podcast. And this is a, you know, this is an age old question. It pertains to, you know, brand advertising as well. Like if I see a bag flying around Instagram, like, am I more likely to buy the bag? Or whatever. And you know, and it's a similar question here. It's like if I see clips of Timothee Chalamet talking about arts housing on Theofon, does that make me eventually become a Theofan listener? And that kind of tracking down the funnel? We still don't know. And it's still kind of amorphous, even though we supposedly live in a highly dataified and trackable age.

[Alison Stewart]

Let's talk to Anna from Tenafly, New Jersey. Hi Anna, thanks for calling, all of it.

[Caller]

Hello. I was just saying to the person who answered the phone that first of all, perhaps it's a function of the generation that I'm in, but I am perfectly capable of using my imagination for starters. And in addition to that, I prefer radio because I feel. Or audio podcasts as well, because I feel like I listen more carefully without the distractions of looking at the people looking at you. Know what they're wearing at the background, how they're interacting with each other. I infer that from the tone of their voice and the nature of their conversation. And I just think that audio podcasts are much preferable for those reasons. I have no interest in video podcasts.

[Alison Stewart]

Anna, thanks for calling in. I'm curious, is there a generational divide here?

[Nick Kwa]

Oh, absolutely. I think that's the secret dynamic or the sort of not super widely spoken dynamics going on here. My feeling is that a lot of, let me put it this way, a lot of youngins visual in the video language and short form, video language is the principal language of the time and it is the primary way, sort of younger demographics. You know, we think of Gen Z, but also early millennials are primarily consuming their media. And, you know, it's, it's definitely a consideration. Yes.

[Alison Stewart]

When I see the video podcasts and I see them with the guests, the person I, the group that I see perhaps feeling, feeling the pain of it is the talk shows, the nine talk shows. I mean, because these guests will go on, they'll bypass the nighttime talk shows, the Jimmy Kimmels, and they'll spend two hours talking to Las Coltieristas about whatever, Sarah Jessica Broker, I mean, she spent a long time, she's wonderful. But she spent a lot of time.

[Caller]

Talking to Las Culturistas.

[Nick Kwa]

Right. And we're seeing the end, what seems to be the beginning of the end of Late Night, Right. With Stephen Colbert, Barry's cancellation and that show just being canceled outright of a replacement. So we recently worked on a package over at Vulture not too long ago about what we're calling a new media circuit, which is if you're going to sell a movie, if you're going to sell a book, it used to be the case that you could try to get a magazine cover, go on a bunch of late night talk show hosts, and maybe move a ton of units as a result. And these days you have infinite options of things to try to hit in order to sell a book or sell tickets for a movie. And it's unclear whether any one individual show moves the needle anymore. And it includes stuff like podcasts and it also includes stuff like YouTube shows like Hot Ones and Chicken Shop Date. And late night, as the traditional form, feels like it's on the decline or on the way out. But the function and the soul of what Late Night does, it's never been more widespread and carried out by different kinds of players these days.

[Caller]

Let's talk to Kay, calling in from Rochester. Hey, Kay, what Do you have to.

Say, hey, how's it going? Thanks so much for having this really interesting conversation. I was just sharing with your screener that I like to watch podcasts, depending on who's hosting, and I really like listening to others because frankly, I'm not as dependent upon the expressions in their face and how they responded to guests. As much as I just want to hear the content, I follow a few people. There's a wonderful New York Times. She's a columnist and she's an award winning journalist. I think she broke some really important stories and I don't want to get into exactly who that is. But she as a podcaster, her content obviously is just like absolutely riveting. I must know what she has to say every day. I can access it on YouTube, but she doesn't, you know, she's not interested in like looking a certain way and looking jazzy and all that. However, I am riveted to her words. So that's an example where I'll be traveling and I'll just like listen to the podcast. But there are other people who are really compelling, such as the Daily Beast or even the not even the Bulwark anymore, but the Daily Beast. I love Joanna Cole. I love the way she poses questions and then looks at the response of her guests and how they interact with her. Because I'm getting more nuance and I'm watching her trying to sort of decide what else she's going to say. And she does have very specific expressions when people answer.

So yeah, I'm going to dive in there because we're going to run out of time. Thank you so much for your response. K Kay brings me to the question, is there room for both audio and video podcast?

[Nick Kwa]

We will find that's the answer at this point in time.

[Caller]

Nick KWA is Vulture's podcast critic. Thanks for joining us for our small stakes big opinions.

[Alison Stewart]

We really appreciate it.

[Nick Kwa]

My pleasure. Love small stakes.

[Caller]

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