Sly Stone, The Black Genius

Summary

All Of It Podcast Summary: "Sly Stone, The Black Genius"

Podcast Information:

• Title: All Of It
• Host: Alison Stewart
• Episode: Sly Stone, The Black Genius
• Release Date: February 12, 2025
• Description: A deep dive into the life and legacy of Sylvester Stewart, better known as Sly Stone, exploring his monumental impact on music and the personal struggles that followed his rise to fame.

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Introduction to the Documentary

[00:37] Alison Stewart:
Alison Stewart introduces the new documentary, "Sly Lives, AKA the Burden of Black Genius," which delves into the life of Sly Stone and his groundbreaking work with Sly and the Family Stone. She highlights the band's unique ability to transcend and create their own genres, fostering a multiracial ensemble that envisioned a better future through music.

Sly Stone’s Genius and Its Cost

[01:29] Joseph Patel:
Producer Joseph Patel discusses the dual nature of Sly Stone's genius, emphasizing that while his creativity was unparalleled, it came at a significant personal cost. He explains how Sly had to navigate the complexities of appealing to both black and white audiences during a transformative period in American history.

[02:10] Joseph Patel:
Patel elaborates, "We wanted to look at his story with a lot of empathy... Sly wasn't a typical rock star. He was the first black post-civil rights era rock star, facing immense pressure from both audiences and the media."

Empathetic Storytelling and Artistic Voices

[03:14] Joseph Patel:
The documentary aims to portray Sly Stone's narrative empathetically, avoiding the clichéd rise-and-fall trope by uncovering deeper layers of his persona and struggles.

[03:20] Alison Stewart:
Stewart highlights the inclusion of diverse voices in the film, such as Vernon Reed from Living Color and Andre 3000, who provide insightful commentary on Sly's influence and legacy.

[05:16] Alison Stewart:
She commends the choice of interviewees who serve as proxies for Sly Stone, given his unavailability for on-camera discussions. This approach allows the documentary to explore his impact through the experiences of other artists like D'Angelo, Q-Tip, and Chaka Khan.

Sly Stone’s Influence on Future Artists

[06:48] Alison Stewart:
The conversation shifts to Sly Stone's formative years and his environment in the Bay Area, which fostered his musical sensibilities. Patel explains how the diverse and permissive atmosphere of San Francisco was instrumental in Sly's ability to experiment and produce a wide range of music.

[08:31] Joseph Patel:
Patel reveals lesser-known aspects of Sly's career, such as his role in producing for The Great Society, Grace Slick's proto-Jefferson Airplane band, showcasing his versatility and behind-the-scenes influence in the music industry.

Analysis of "Everyday People"

[09:25] Joseph Patel:
The documentary features an analysis of Sly Stone's hit "Everyday People," highlighting its inclusive message and intricate harmonies inspired by black church music. The song's ability to resonate with a broad audience is underscored by its lyrical and musical composition.

[10:22] Alison Stewart:
Stewart prompts a discussion on the subtext of the song, leading to insights about Sly's forward-thinking approach to inclusivity in music.

Exploring "Stand" as a Protest Anthem

[11:46] Joseph Patel:
The episode plays a clip of "Stand," another significant song by Sly Stone, prompting a conversation about its role as a protest anthem. Unlike "Everyday People," "Stand" embodies a more direct message aligned with the social movements of the time.

[12:23] Listener:
The discussion reveals that while "Stand" carries the weight of a protest song, it remains deliberately vague, allowing it to serve as a universal anthem for various causes. This subtlety reflects Sly's reluctance to be overtly political, aligning with his belief in the American dream and the possibility of racial harmony.

Sly Stone’s Performance at Woodstock

[14:16] Alison Stewart:
Stewart references a pivotal moment in Sly Stone's career—his late-night performance at Woodstock—which significantly elevated his status and thrust him into the spotlight.

[15:25] Sly Stone (Clip):
Sly reflects on the overwhelming success of Woodstock, stating, "Success can equal certain freedoms, but I don't think anybody's totally free the whole time... the same thing that made you great becomes the thing that kills you."

[16:09] Joseph Patel:
Patel connects this sentiment to Sly's subsequent struggles with addiction, suggesting that the pressures of fame and expectations led to his downfall. He poses the question: "Is he still Sly?" affirming that while his essence remained, external pressures hindered his full potential.

The Burden of Black Genius

[17:27] Listener:
The documentary posits that Sly Stone, as a pioneering black artist, bore unique burdens in America. Quotes from Q-Tip illustrate the challenges faced by black artists in maintaining artistic authenticity while navigating societal expectations and industry pressures.

[17:57] Listener:
Further discussion emphasizes that Sly's experience was a precursor to the struggles encountered by subsequent black artists, highlighting the systemic obstacles that limited their creative freedoms compared to their white counterparts like David Bowie.

Behind-the-Scenes Storytelling

[18:48] Listener:
A standout moment from the documentary is recounted, where Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis share the story of how they sampled Sly Stone's "Thank You (Falettinme Be Mice Elf Agin)" for Janet Jackson's "Rhythm Nation." The meticulous editing by Josh Pearson ensures the narrative remains beat-aligned, showcasing the film's attention to musical detail.

Conclusion and Premiere Announcement

[20:15] Alison Stewart:
Stewart wraps up the discussion by announcing the documentary's premiere on Hulu the following day, expressing gratitude to Joseph Patel for his insights.

[20:28] Alison Stewart:
She concludes the episode with a nod to Sly Stone's enduring legacy, setting the stage for listeners to engage with his music and the documentary.

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Notable Quotes:

• Joseph Patel [02:10]:
  "Sly wasn't a typical rock star. He was the first black post-civil rights era rock star, facing immense pressure from both audiences and the media."

• Sly Stone [15:25]:
  "Success can equal certain freedoms, but I don't think anybody's totally free the whole time... the same thing that made you great becomes the thing that kills you."

• Q-Tip [17:57]:
  "If you're a black artist and you're trying something new and you're not allowed to do that, it may mess with you."

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Key Takeaways:

• Sly Stone's Legacy: His innovative approach to music broke racial and genre barriers, influencing countless artists across generations.
• Personal Struggles: The immense pressures of fame and societal expectations took a significant toll on Sly Stone, leading to personal and professional challenges.
• Cultural Impact: Sly's work encapsulated the aspirations and complexities of a post-civil rights America, fostering a vision of inclusivity and unity through music.
• Documentary Insights: "Sly Lives, AKA the Burden of Black Genius" provides an empathetic and nuanced portrayal of Sly Stone, exploring both his monumental achievements and the personal costs of his genius.

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Final Note:
For those interested in exploring the profound impact of Sly Stone and understanding the intricate dynamics between culture, race, and artistry, "Sly Lives, AKA the Burden of Black Genius" is a must-watch documentary premiering on Hulu. Tune in to "All Of It" for more in-depth discussions on cultural icons and their enduring legacies.

Transcript

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[Listener]

Listener supported WNYC Studios.

[Alison Stewart]

This is all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. A new documentary is called Sly Lives, AKA the Burden of Black Genius. Sly is Sylvester Stewart, better known as Sly Stone. Sly and the Family Stone didn't recognize genres. They created their own. In the 1960s, they were a multiracial band with men and women. The group offered a vision of a better future. Just listen to their big hit, Dance to the Music.

[Joseph Patel]

But Sly's genius came a cost.

[Alison Stewart]

He had to thread the needle of.

[Joseph Patel]

Appealing to black and white audiences. He dealt with the expectations of being one of the first black celebrities in a post civil rights America. And there was constant media scrutiny and record label pressure. It became all too much. Sly fell into addiction, which led to the downfall of the band, but not before he cranked out some classic albums and created a path for those who would follow in his footsteps. The documentary is called Sly Lives, AKA the Burden of Black Genius. It premieres on Hulu tomorrow. With me now to discuss it is the film's producer, Joseph Patel. You know him, he won an Oscar for Summer of Soul.

[Alison Stewart]

Nice to meet you.

[Listener]

Nice to meet you too. I'm really happy to be here.

[Joseph Patel]

So what questions did you want to answer about Sly and the Family Stone?

[Listener]

Oh, you're not messing around. I mean, I don't know if it was, like, specific questions, but I think we wanted to look at his story with a lot of empathy and really try to uncover what happens, you know, because that story of the rise and fall of the rock star is sort of a cliche. But we just felt like there was something more underneath the surface with Sly. You know, he wasn't a typical rock star, and he was sort of the first black post civil rights era rock star. And, you know, imagine being 26 years old. You just headlined Woodstock. You're on the COVID of Rolling Stone. Black and white audiences both are looking to you like you've solved race relations through music and like, what pressure that must have been like for him. And I think that's kind of where we started from, was how do we look at his story and figure out what's under the surface and how do we do it with some empathy.

[Joseph Patel]

Your voices in the Film, the sort of Greek chorus are very particular artists.

[Listener]

Yeah. All very intentional.

[Joseph Patel]

Yeah. You have Vernon Reed, form of living color, Andre 3000. He had his flute album nominated for a Grammy. How did you choose the artist that you wanted to ask about? Sly Stallone Stone.

[Listener]

I do that, too.

[Joseph Patel]

Thank you.

[Listener]

You know, one, we didn't want to do a typical music documentary where you see the same people, which is ironic because Questlove is one of those people who's in every music documentary. We wanted to not just tell you that Slystone was a genius, but show you how. And who better to get than, like, Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis and Nile Rogers, who are brilliant songwriters. But more than that, they're of the generation that was directly impacted by Sly's emergence. Right. Jimmy is listening to Sly Stone on the radio in Minneapolis. Nile Rogers is section leader of the Black Panther Party, buying Stan and listening to it over and over again. Their artistry and their accomplishments are a direct result of the impression that Sly made on them. So that's sort of where we started elsewhere in the film. I think ideally, we would have liked to have talked to Sly in 2024 and gotten a really reflective Sly about these pressure moments in his career and what he thinks of them now. But unfortunately, while he's still with us, he's not help to be on camera. And even if he were, would he be that reflective? So we were like, well, we can't ask Sly these questions about why were you late on stage all the time? Why were you missing shows? But we can talk to D'Angelo. We can talk to Andre 3000 and Q Tip and Chaka Khan, who are all artists who have gone through similar experiences. And so they serve as sort of proxies for Sly in a lot of ways.

[Alison Stewart]

Yeah.

[Joseph Patel]

Because they're all really interesting people who.

[Alison Stewart]

Who led their own way.

[Listener]

Yeah. And also someone like D'Angelo. Even if you don't know D'Angelo's backstory and you're not a fan, what he says is really profound and moving in the film. But if you do know his backstory, and you do know that on the voodoo tour in 2000, and his drummer was Questlove in that band. So Questlove was witness to this every night. How hard it was for him to get on stage every night. And harder and harder it became as the tour progressed, because he was expected to end the show with his shirt off, performing. How does it feel? Be in perfect physical shape to a screaming arena. Right. And it's like. And that became a burden for Him. And so that layer of it is really interesting. Vernon Reid, for example, when there's this great scene in the film where Sly's on the Dick Cavett show and Dick Cavett's, you know, as Vernon says in the film, he's gotta be the smartest guy in the room.

[Alison Stewart]

Playing mind games.

[Listener]

Yeah. And it's like, you know, kind of trying to take, you know, Sly for a little bit of a ride. And Vernon breaks down this whole appearance. And again, if you don't know Vernon Reed, his insight is really bright and brilliant. But if you do know Vernon Reed, you know that he's been on that couch, too, as a black rock artist being questioned by a white host. Almost like, why are you here? What did you do to deserve this? Do you really know your stuff? And so that extra layer is sort of an added dimension, I think, for people that know those backstories.

[Alison Stewart]

We're speaking about a new documentary, Sly Lives, AKA the Burden of Black Genius. With us is producer Joseph Patel. So we learn about Sly's family.

[Joseph Patel]

They come up through the great Migration. They settle in California.

[Alison Stewart]

He has a time when he's young. He's like a really good DJ and.

[Joseph Patel]

Producer, and he has this great show. How is the Bay Area a place where somebody. Where his sensibilities could flourish?

[Listener]

That's a great question, I think, you know, because I grew up in the Bay, so there's. There's a lot of things in the Bay area in the 60s that I recognize that were still there in the 80s when I grew up there. And I think San Francisco, specifically the Bay in general, is a place where it's very diverse, but there's space for these things to play with each other. You know, there's not this sort of, like. San Francisco's always historically been the wild, wild west, right up until recently, it was a city where anything could happen and sort of outsiders like to congregate there and settle down there. And I think Sly, you know, had the space and freedom to do whatever he wanted on the radio. He had the space and freedom to. To be a black producer producing white psychedelic artists and, you know, Questlove. When we were mapping out the story, he asked this question. He says, if Sly and the Family Stone never. If Sly Stone never settled in Vallejo, California, and went to San Francisco, if he was in Texas, would we have the same band? And I think fundamentally, the answer was no. Like, they wouldn't have made the same music. There is a San Francisco Ness to it, which is why we sort of start the movie there.

[Joseph Patel]

What I learned was, like, what a great producer he was.

[Listener]

Yeah. And he. I was like, I didn't know that he produced the Great Society, which was Grace Slick's proto Jefferson Starship or Jefferson Airplane. And he produced the song Someone To Love. I didn't know that until we were doing research. And it's. You know, it's funny. There's a funny moment in the film, in the beginning, when we're talking about all the things Sly does, right? He's a DJ on the radio playing all types of music. He's producing all types of bands, like the California version of the British Invasion, plus the Great Society, which is proto psychedelic music. He's doing traditional R and B. He's also songwriting himself. And who else does that remind you of? Someone who has 15 jobs. It's Questlove. And so it's like there's sort of a little wink and a nod to Amir's own sort of endeavors. In that first section of the movie.

[Joseph Patel]

I want to play the song Everyday People because early on he's told, you got to write a hit song. You got to write a hit song. So let's listen to this and we can talk about it on the other side.

[Musical Artist]

Sometimes I'm right and I can be wrong My own beliefs are in my song. The butcher, the baker, the drummer and then mix. There's no difference what group I'm in I am everyday people yeah, yeah. There is a new one, and except the green one for living on the back Trying to be a spinning different straw.

[Alison Stewart]

This song sort of sounds childlike. What was the subtext here?

[Listener]

Well, so in the film, we sort of break down the song, right? And we have, you know, again, Jimmy Jam, Terry Lewis, now Rogers, breaking down the song. And, you know, Sly wrote music that combined genres. It was very inclusive, right. A way to bring both black and white audiences in. And what's brilliant about that song is not only the lyrics itself is about, like, we're all in this together, right? Which at the time is part of what his generation of children of families, the Great Migration, sort of believe in the American dream. But he engineers the song, writes the song to be inclusive. You've got a part of the song where everyone's singing in unison. That's the thing where you and I with, you know, I don't know your musical abilities. I have none. I couldn't hold a note. But, like, I can sing along with that. But he's. And. And that really is inclusive of a broad audience. But he's also got These harmonies in that song, which is really sort of reminiscent of black church music. And so he is writing the song in mind with being bringing in all audiences. And I think that we reveal that in the film, we talk about it, and hopefully the viewer gets an understanding that Sly was just thinking three, four, five steps ahead.

[Joseph Patel]

The next song we're gonna listen to is Stand. Let's listen and we can talk about it on the other side.

[Musical Artist]

Stand. In the end, you'll still be you One that's done all the things you set out to do Stand. There's a cross for you to bear Things to go through if you are going anywhere Stand for the things you know. All right. It's the truth.

[Sly Stone]

That.

[Musical Artist]

The truth.

[Alison Stewart]

Why did he feel like he needed to write Stand?

[Listener]

So the story is basically that, like, when you do a song, everyday people, Right. Slystone is basically the All Lives matter crowd in 1969. Right. And, you know, he's. Vernon says this in the film where he's like. A lot of black folks thought that was maybe too idealistic, because if you look at the news and what's happening in the cities. So he wanted to make a song that was more like a protest anthem, that was more in line with what was happening on the ground. And to some degree, he doesn't go fully. He doesn't fully commit to the black protest anthem. It's still a protest anthem. The genius of Stand, and I think, which speaks to Sly's inclusiveness, is that that song feels like a protest anthem. It's written like a protest anthem, but it's just vague enough that whatever your cause is, you can use that as an anthem. And I think that sort of Sly's Slyness, if you will.

[Alison Stewart]

Yeah, he wasn't so sure about being a black power movement guy.

[Listener]

Yeah. That wasn't his politics.

[Alison Stewart]

Right. He rejects the Black Panther, giving them money. Why was he like that? I'm curious.

[Listener]

I mean, I think the theory is that because, you know, his father was from deep in Texas, migrates to California, is not a fan of white folks. And Sly's of a generation that believes in the American dream, believes in the idea that we can all get along. And his youth is. You know, you see him, he's in a doo wop group called the Viscaynes. And he's the only black face in this white doo wop group. And he was the only black person in a lot of white space spaces. But he believed in this fundamentally, in this idea that we could get along, all of us together.

[Alison Stewart]

We got A text that says, sly performed late at Woodstock and lifted up the entire crowd. Everyone was standing and rocking out. How did Woodstock change the trajectory?

[Listener]

I think Woodstock, you know, when. When Sly performs, he essentially steals the show. And I think they played really late at night. It was like three or four in the morning. And it kind of adds to the myth, right? And then when the movie comes out, the movie is really what made Woodstock famous. It's not the festival itself. It's the movie that follows a few months later. Sly's the only artist on the poster. Sly is when you. When people watch the movie, people who were like normal, regular people who weren't in tune with what was happening. Woodstock, when it was happening, Sly steals the show, and it just thrusts him to a different level of recognition and celebrity.

[Alison Stewart]

Let's listen to a clip from the.

[Joseph Patel]

Film Sly Lives, where we hear Sly speaking about Woodstock and Then later hear Andre 3000 speaking about what happens to you. If you had a Woodstock moment like Sly did, what effect did it have on you?

[Sly Stone]

Wow. It was a little too big. It was almost too big to happen. You know, I thought we would happen, but at the time, it was almost too much all at once. Success can equal certain freedoms, but I don't think anybody's totally free the whole time. I think there are moments of. And I think that's what we're attracted to. Like when we see what we call a rock star. It's almost like they are making a sacrifice for us, and that's why we held them. But sometimes it starts to work against why and what you're doing. The same thing that made you great becomes the thing that kills you.

[Joseph Patel]

That's such a bold thing to say.

[Listener]

Yeah.

[Joseph Patel]

When you think about it, Sly has a period after this where, I don't want to say it, like the rock star descends, but he gets involved with drugs. He's later all the time, as that period starts to evolve. Is he still Sly?

[Alison Stewart]

What do you think?

[Listener]

Yeah, I mean, I think he's Sly. I think, you know, like I said, we wanted to treat his story with empathy, but we still wanted to give him some agency, that he made his own decisions, you know? And I think the whole premise of the movie starts with Questlove and I, when we first met, to talk about what kind of movie we wanted to make. And this idea had been sort of sticking with Ymir, where he was just like, the burden of success for black artists in America. Right. And he was going through it. He's seen his peers go through it and peers and colleagues. And he sort of traced it back, and he sort of looked at Sly as being the first big artist that had to negotiate those same things. And, you know, what he was talking about is what Emira's talking about. And what we sort of show that Sly went through is that when you're a black artist in America, there are these unseen burdens that come with success. And throughout the film, people like DeAngelo and Andre and Q Tip talk about what those burdens are. And again, specific to being a black artist in America. And Sly. You know, like I said, Sly was 26 years old, and he's got both these black and white audiences to satisfy. The minute he decides to do something a little bit more rooted in funky, a little blacker sound, the white critics savage him, and they take these liberties in the language they use in savaging him.

[Joseph Patel]

Oh, yes.

[Listener]

And then Q Tip has this great line later where he's like. You know, when he compares David Bowie and Sly Stone, he's like, david Bowie was allowed to be a chameleon like figure throughout his career. Why wasn't Sly afforded the same space? And then he says, and I love this. I didn't get this line until like, three or four times after I heard it. And Q Tip says, if you're a black artist and you're trying something new and you're not allowed to do that, it may mess with you. And so I think that's kind of our theory about Sly and the struggles he went through. So is it still him? Yes, it is, but it's probably not what he could have been if he was allowed the space to just experiment and be himself.

[Joseph Patel]

All right, tell me a good story from the documentary. There are so many, but I know you got one.

[Listener]

You mean something that's in the film or not? Well, I will say this. My favorite scene in the film is Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis telling the story of how they sampled thank youk For Letting Me Be Myself for Janet Jackson's Rhythm Nation. Some people know that and some people don't. But even if you do know it, the way they tell the story is so good because. So Amir. Amir and I say Amir and Questlove interchangeably. But he says, if we're gonna interview Jimmy and Terry, you have to do it separately. Cause I'm the producer. I'm trying to save money. I'm just like. I'm like, we're gonna do it together. He's like, no, you gotta do it separately. Because whenever they're together, Jimmy does all the talking. Terry says nothing and he says, but I've talked to Terry, and Terry's full of knowledge. So we interviewed them separately two weeks apart, and they tell us the same story beat by beat. And so when it's edited together by our genius editor, Josh Pearson, he's telling the story a being between Jimmy and Terry. The great thing about that whole scene, and this is for the real nerdy heads, is it starts with thank you for letting me be myself playing and then it ends. It tells the story of how they sampled it for Rhythm Nation and then it goes back to thank youk. The whole scene is in time. It doesn't ever lose the beat because Josh, our editor, is also a musician and he knows how to keep everything on beat so well.

[Alison Stewart]

Yay to Josh. Yes, yay to Josh for that. The name of the film is Sly Lives, AKA the Burden of Black Genius. It premieres tomorrow on Hulu. Joseph Patel, thank you so much for coming by.

[Listener]

Thanks for having me.

[Alison Stewart]

Let's go out on some Sly Stone.

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