Dominica Ferro (3:21)

Nice to meet you. Thank you for that lovely introduction, listeners.

Alison Stewart (3:24)

We'd love to hear from you. Have you ever been in grief counseling or in a grief group? What's something you've learned about grief and counseling? What's an aspect of grief you wish people spoke more about? Our Phone lines are open. 2124-3396-9221-2433, WNYC. You can call to us at that number or text us at that number. 2124-3396-9221-2433. So I mentioned this play comes from your own experience of losing your mom. When did you know you were ready to write the play?

Dominica Ferro (3:57)

God, I don't know that I was ready when I wrote it. It just kind of happened. I remember one day I was on a trip and my father was there and I was writing in his office, and I was sobbing hysterically while writing it. And he said to me, sweetie, maybe you should wait. Maybe it had been I wrote it about nine months after my mom died. And I just said to him, I can't. It has to be written. There was something the play was stronger than me, so it just had to come out.

Alison Stewart (4:28)

Had you ever been to sort of any grief counseling, grief groups before?

Dominica Ferro (4:31)

I went to grief counseling for quite a few months after my mother died. I probably should have stayed in it for longer. I tried a lot of different modalities of healing. My mom was my best friend, and she was 51 when she died, and it was only three weeks after she was diagnosed with cancer. So we had like a very healthy human being in our life who we thought would live for a very long time. And then suddenly she was dead. And I didn't really want to be here. So I tried all sorts of things to just figure it out. And I also had been very privileged from a grief perspective. I had only lost one grandparent, so suddenly I was tackling something that I really was not. I just had no prior experience with. And it was it's definitely the hardest thing I've ever had to deal with.

Interviewer (5:22)

Was there something from the grief counseling that you knew you wanted to capture in this play?

Dominica Ferro (5:28)

You know, I think what I wanted to capture in the play was that, yes, the counseling is very helpful. It is very important to find time. To schedule specific schedule, but to find time. I mean, life unfortunately keeps going and keeps moving and still needs so much from us. And so it is important to make time for grief, specifically because, general, a therapist can be wonderful, and there are all these different types of help that we can get. But I do think it is important to carve out time with someone who does understand grief, and that is what they are devoted to. And I also really learned in that time and what I was going through, how much your own family can help you and how it is really challenging because no two people grieve the same way. Even when you're grieving the same person. Especially when you're grieving the same person person. And it is figuring out how to stay with each other and communicate through the tough moments. And I think for me, at least, grief counseling was helpful in maybe realizing, okay, I am grieving this way, and this other person in my life is grieving a completely different way. But that doesn't mean they're not grieving, and that doesn't mean they're not hurting just as much as I am. So I. That was something that I definitely wanted to capture in the play.

Interviewer (6:45)

My guest is Dominica Ferreau. The name of her play is Someone Spectacular. It's the Pershing Square Cinema. Excuse me. Pershing Square center, through Aug. 31. It'll be a movie one day.

Dominica Ferro (6:55)

No.

Interviewer (6:57)

When these group. When this group of people hits the.

Alison Stewart (6:59)

Stage, why do they continue to go on and get counseling instead of just going home?

Dominica Ferro (7:06)

That is a very good question. And we talk about that a lot with our actors. I think for a lot of them, there is this. They need to come here and they need to share. And they've had the expectation, and a lot of them have situations that have been building up over the past week that they really are desperate to talk about. And I think the people in their own life are grieving so much that same person, they're someone spectacular. So it doesn't feel like they can talk to their own family or their own friends in the same way that they can come to this group and share their particular experience. We've also talked about how some of the members in the group, particularly the characters of Nell and Lily maybe, aren't the biggest fans of the grief counselor and are very excited to have an opportunity to sort of have the inmates run the asylum, so to speak. And so that's a very exciting opportunity for them. And then There are some people who are very. Feel like this is a really, really, really dangerous thing to do. But like the character of Jude in particular, Jude has something that she really came here to get Beth's help with. And I think there is an expectation that the grief counselor might still show up. You know, it's been 10 minutes at first. Okay, she's 10 minutes late. That it's not crazy that happens. And then the more time goes by, you're suddenly caught up in all of this stuff. And we do have moments where people almost leave or it seems like people might. It just. The time goes by and the play takes off. And once they're in it and they're fiercely locked in with each other, I think that they just, they are so focused on what is going on. And once it does finally hit them that Beth is probably not coming, they have, in this odd way, despite all the chaos and how rude they've been to each other, helped each other a lot, which is, I think show power of human connection, which I have found to be the most life saving thing when grieving. My mom is just connecting with the human beings who are here.

Alison Stewart (9:00)

Let's take a couple of calls. Sharon is calling from Queens. Hi, Sharon, thank you so much for calling in.

Caller Sharon (9:06)

Hi. You know, I recently had a loss of my daughter's father and also a nephew to suicide. I've been in grief counseling before when I lost. I've lost my parents and as well as my brother and sister. So I'm the only one left. It has helped me deal with loss, but it has also helped my daughter and my granddaughter give lessons on loss is a natural thing. We're not going to stay on earth forever. But I'm still dealing with my sister's kids because they didn't go to grief counseling. And it has taken such a toll on me and them because they had. Their father refused to let them go. So I'm, you know, grief is something. It's not even the grief, it's the loss. It's something you never get over but you have to go through.

Interviewer (10:03)

Thank you, Sharon, so much for calling in. Let's talk to Vicki from Westchester.

Alison Stewart (10:07)

Hi, Vicki, thanks for calling.

Caller Vicki (10:10)

Hi. So I lost my father. He lived a wonderful life. He lived till 83. I lost him to cancer about eight years ago. And I was just heartbroken. And it was miraculous to find a grief group and it was free. That was miraculous. And sharing that with a group of people who are also feeling grief about their losses, it was magical. And the bottom line, I think I took away from the whole experience is how little I understood about death before I lost somebody who was close to me. I had lost other people, but somebody so close. And I don't think anybody in my family really understood the process of what happens to your body as you're dying. So I feel like we all learned while it was happening to him. And I think it would have been better if we had known. Yeah, so that's, you know, I guess there was grief going on while that was happening, but it was just. I'm such a huge advocate and for. In the Puerto Rican community anyway, in my generation, I'm 60 now, it was viewed almost like, why would you want to spend time with somebody who's dying? That's negative. Why would you want to bring your daughter to the hospice? That's so negative. And I was like your previous caller said, like, death is a part of life and I want to be with that person. I want to be a support. And I didn't think it was bad at all to walk that path with my father who was dying.

Alison Stewart (11:50)

Thank you so much, Vicki, for calling and sharing with us. My guest, Dominica Ferraud. The name of her play is Someone Spectacular. Let's talk a little bit about the entrance. There's no big entrance. No curtain goes up. You arrive and Tom comes in first, and people are taking off their coats and getting their. Their chair set up where they are. Why did you want to have the action start that way?

Dominica Ferro (12:14)

You know, it's designed to kind of test the audience and for them to feel what the characters are feeling of what is going on. Because they are all wondering. And it's said in the play. Beth is usually early. And there's this rule that they can't talk until Beth gets here. Because interesting. Grief is very personal and very. It's this. This. I think the group has very much. They've been going to the same group for three months. They've formed these relationships with each other and with Beth. And there is this structure that they've all agreed to. And she's always, always. She gets there before Tom. So the characters are really like, what is going on? And I wanted the audience to have that feeling of something's going on here, what's up? And the play, although it's a very, very realistic play and we really are in real time with these characters and experiencing their grief. There is also kind of a supernatural element and a. A Waiting for Godot feeling of something else happening. There's a line in the play where one of the characters. Julian, who's grieving his aunt, says, do you ever feel like your life is like a nightmare? Like you're trapped in this strange new place where you don't recognize anything or anyone? And we do play with that idea in the play that, yes, this is all happening right here, right now. But also this kind of. There is this feeling after losing somebody very close to you that you feel like you're trapped in a horror movie. And are they in purgatory? Is there that element as well? So I wanted the play to start off and have the audience feel the way the characters are feeling and build up that suspense for them to stay with the mystery of the play for the next 90 minutes.

Alison Stewart (13:52)

Of the six people, who was the.

Interviewer (13:54)

Hardest character to get into? And then which was the easiest?

Dominica Ferro (13:58)

Oh, gosh. Well. Oh, I would say that the hardest character to get into was probably Jude. And I'm 31. I've never been in a serious relationship to the point where I would consider having children. I have not been pregnant or had that experience. Jude is actually very much inspired by an experience, by a version of my mother. And I didn't really get to talk to my mother that much about her miscarriage. A lot of things I learned from reading old notebooks. It was really something that I. Listening to, reading books about and figuring out the experience of what that is. And also due to someone who is young and yet really wants to be a mother. I was raised by a young mom who had me at 22. And then who always told me, don't even think about getting married until you're at least 30. So that was a very different experience for me to sort of get into. Honestly, a lot of. I'm. A lot of Jude's lines, I don't even really remember writing. I Sometimes I feel like my mom wrote that character for me. And then the easiest character for me to write was. I was gonna say Lily. Cause she's a version of myself. But that's actually not true because it's very hard to look at the ugliest parts of yourself and put them on display. I would say that the easiest character to write was definitely Melissa. I love Nell. Nell is the motor of the play. Nell is the kind of person who people can get irritated by. She's. She doesn't mince words. She's very, very direct. But we all need a Nell. We do need a Nel in our life to accomplish things, to say the thing that nobody wants to hear. And ultimately, really, interestingly, the character that she Butts heads with the most. Jude is the person. Nell's the one who's ultimately able to help her because of her very direct. This is what it is. Okay, I'm just gonna say it. I think that Nell was so much fun for me to get into and to write. I really, really enjoyed every second I spent with that character.

Interviewer (16:07)

I loved it when champtied her bag on stage.

Dominica Ferro (16:10)

That was.

Interviewer (16:11)

You got a good sense of who she was, what was going on in.

Dominica Ferro (16:13)

That bag, the bagography, as we like to call it. And it always gets a huge laugh when she empty. It's so relatable, right? She empties her bag, there's all of this stuff in there. And then she pats herself and her phone is in her pocket. I'm sure we have all done that too many times to count.

Interviewer (16:29)

This is a text we got in the eight session grief support group I joined after my wife's sudden death. The other participant stories were so horrific that I reverted to dad mode and comfort giver.

Alison Stewart (16:41)

Domenica, how do you manage the tendency to compete in the grief Olympics in your own experience and in the play? And that was one of my questions. The characters are really sort of jockeying about, well, who should. Who should read longer? Should you get this time? Should I get this time? How did you think about this impulse to almost compete in grief?

Dominica Ferro (17:02)

Oh, God. I thought about it because it's something that unfortunately I went through in my own. I would think I. My brother called me out for this a lot, being like, you know, you're acting a little bit like a victim of her death. And I think I really did. I would struggle sometimes when people would tell me, oh, I lost my mother and it was so hard on me. And I would think, well, your mother lived to be 90 and my mother died at 50 and your mother got to know your kids. And my mother will never know my children. And that my father is so very wise and so helpful of being like, loss is loss and pain is pain. And there is no. There's always going to be a situation that's sadder than yours. There's always going to. There's no. All you can do is focus on what you are feeling and what that is. But that. There's a great book Crying in H Mart.

Alison Stewart (17:50)

Oh, it's great.

Dominica Ferro (17:51)

It's so wonderful.

Alison Stewart (17:53)

From Japanese Breakfast Switzerland.

Dominica Ferro (17:55)

Oh, yes. Michelle, Control room, everybody.

Alison Stewart (17:58)

Michelle. They'll tune in third of the control room.

Dominica Ferro (18:00)

She's great. Great. That book is really amazing. I read it a year after my mom died and she does talk about how she felt monstrous for it, but she would walk around and see older Korean women and feel like, oh, my God, that's my mother will never be you. And she would kind of hate them and then hate herself for feeling that way. And so that was very relatable to me. And then the question of who gets to grieve and who doesn't, I think is a really compelling one to see play out. And I did want to give the experience that was true to the characters of having these fierce debates, but then ultimately coming to a place where they could find empathy and understanding for one another. Because I do think that it is important for us to be able to just hold space for each other and be there for each other in the best way that we can, but also not feel too guilty. It's okay. It's okay to feel really angry about the particular circumstances of what's going on. It is okay however you feel, even if that is angry or as long as you don't take it out on that person or do your best to not take it out on that person. Well, honestly, all you can do is your best because you're dealing with an loss is. There's no word for what losses. There's just. Is. Death is. It's. I'm a writer and I'm at a loss for words. So I do. I think that however you feel in that is completely valid. And that was something that was interesting to me with these characters who are just. They're not meaning to be awful or mean or any of that or having these competitions. They really are just in a lot of. There's a line in the play where the character of Evelyn says to Lily, you're not rude, Lily. Not really. You're just in a lot of pain. And that is a lot of what's going on in this play. They are just in so much pain.

Alison Stewart (19:43)

The author's name is Michelle Zauner.

Dominica Ferro (19:45)

Great. Michelle Zauner.

Alison Stewart (19:47)

Our Phone number is 2124-3396-9221-2433. WNYC. We're talking to you listeners about. Have you ever been in grief counseling or in a grief group? Something you learned from grief counseling? Please give us a call. 2124-3396-9221-2433.

Interviewer (20:06)

WNYC.

Alison Stewart (20:08)

I'm speaking with Dominique Damica Ferrara.

Interviewer (20:10)

Her new show is called Someone Spectacular.

Alison Stewart (20:12)

It's about a grief group that kind of goes off the rails, but to good ends. To good ends. It's running at the Pershing Square signature theater through August 31st. Let me read this test. I lost my younger sister suddenly in a tragic incident 18 years ago.

Interviewer (20:26)

She was like my twin.

Alison Stewart (20:27)

It turned me upside down. I found out quickly that everyone rushes to support the parents and the kids.

Interviewer (20:32)

And there's a lot of counseling for them.

Alison Stewart (20:34)

But for siblings, we end up in no man's land, and there's a very little support for sibling environment. I found my most of my healing from friends and others who have lived through it and reached out and have since become that person. For others, it's a forgotten piece of.

Interviewer (20:48)

The Greece landscape, which is really interesting.

Alison Stewart (20:51)

Another piece of the grief landscape which gets discussed in your play is grief and guilt. For example, Tom, who loved his wife dearly, is dating somebody else. They try to. They kind of shame him a little bit at first. What did you want to. Why do you think grief and guilt go hand in hand?

Dominica Ferro (21:12)

Because you're having to live and the person. There's survivor's guilt. Yeah. There's a real. I really looked around after my mom died, and I just. I wished it had been me instead. I wish there were so many other permutations. I really struggled with being alive. And it wasn't that I wanted to end my life. It was that it felt wrong to live when she could not. That was a huge thing for me. And in discussions I had with my family, I could see that we were all really, really struggling. It's like, why? Why did that person have to go? And why do I get to still be here? It doesn't make sense. There's not a lot of logic there. And it is in situations like that, at least for me. I did feel a lot of guilt. And Tom makes the point of he cannot live his life with his wife anymore. And it was either end his life, which he reveals that he did really seriously consider. But he is staying. He has children. His wife would not want him to abandon them. And he is staying for the collection, for the collective. We talk about that in my family, the collective unit. That is my mother. When she. The day before she died, she told us to love each other. And that is something that has really, really helped us and will help us till the day we die. And for Tom, he can't do that with his wife anymore. He cannot live his life with his wife anymore. So he has to find another way. And there is a statistic that men widowers are eight times more likely to remarry than widows, which is really quite.

Alison Stewart (22:45)

I had to think about that for a long Time.

Dominica Ferro (22:48)

It's quite a number. And I think it is part of societally, we don't make friendships for men as normalized or as healthy as we do for women. I think women have so much support in that it is built in. There's even a joke right now, apparently, I don't know which generation this is with that if two men have been friends for longer than 10 years, they must be gay. So we really have put a lot of judgment on male friendships. So is it any wonder that when men lose their spouses, they think, okay, well, I. I'm going through this pain. I need someone to be there for me. And I don't have these friendships that I can. Or these were my wife's friends. These are not my friends. And I need a person. So it does make sense to me. And I think it was important to me to explore that. Yes, Tom is dating, but he is. You can just see the whole play. You can feel and see how very much in love with his wife this man is and always will be.

Alison Stewart (23:50)

I'm going to tell you that the play is funny at times.

Dominica Ferro (23:53)

It is. That was. That surprised me, that really.

Alison Stewart (23:56)

It did surprise you.

Interviewer (23:57)

Oh, tell me more.

Alison Stewart (23:57)

I didn't mean.

Dominica Ferro (23:58)

I didn't. I didn't try to write a column, actually. I've always thought of myself as not a very funny person. My first play was about eating disorders. It's these topics. My essays also look at darker topics. I've always admired people who can take painful things that they've gone through and turn it into comedy. I think that's a beautiful thing to be able to do. And I've said to people, that's just not my ability. And so I was really surprised after I wrote the play and in listening to readings, I mean, the audience yesterday was clapping and laughing at the same time. So it is funny. And I think that that is very helpful. I do think back to the moments after my mother's funeral that were the most special to me in some ways. And I mean, as difficult as that was, what got me through it was being in my bedroom with my mom's close friends afterwards and just sharing funny stories about her and laughing. I could feel her in the room with us because she loved to laugh. She loved that. So I think that finding the humor is part of what can help us continue on in that way. So the play is really imbued with that. Not even on purpose, but it's just a big part of the play. Thank goodness. Otherwise, I think it would be very difficult to Sit in.

Interviewer (25:08)

And our last few moments, without getting into too much detail, there's maybe an sort of a supernatural element you mentioned.

Alison Stewart (25:16)

Are you someone who believes in the afterlife?

Dominica Ferro (25:18)

I do, yes. I was not raised to be religious, but I did my mother, my goodness, my mother had a lot of encounters with spirits. And so that was, and I, that was a really big thing that we talked about for a while. So I'm really grateful we had those conversations. And she would tell me how when lights flicker, that was is a sign. And so after her death, lights flicker all the time for me. And it's people will. I actually was talking to friends who I think were a little skeptical. We were in their apartment in London and suddenly the lights started to flicker. It was like she was saying, hi, I'm here. So I do believe that. And that is something that really, really does help me is knowing that she is still with me and hopefully watching this play.

Interviewer (26:05)

Someone Spectacular is at the Pershing Square Signature Theater through Aug. 31. My guest has been Domenica Ferro. She's the playwright. Thank you so much for joining us.

Dominica Ferro (26:16)

Thank you for having me, Alison.

Interviewer (26:19)

And that is all of it for today. I'm Alison Stewart. I appreciate you listening. I appreciate, appreciate you and I will meet you back here tomorrow.

Dominica Ferro (26:41)

Support for WNYC comes from Hudson River park presenting its 24th annual Blues Barbecue Festival featuring Joe Lewis Walker, Cheryl Youngblood, Altered Vibe Blues Band and more. Saturday, August 10th at Hudson River Park's Pier 76.

Brian Lehrer Show Announcer (26:55)

More@hudsonriverpark.org on the next Brian Lehrer Show. What does the progressive left think about Vice President Harris already seeming like the presumed nominee? Bernie Sanders and AOC are among those who had stood by Joe Biden until the end. And Harris rose to prominence as a prosecutor, to some of the left's dismay. Is that all water under the bridge? Also, is this the last summer of outdoor dining as we know it in New York City? The Brian Lehrer show, weekdays at 10am on WNYC.

Dominica Ferro (27:30)

This is WNYC.

Wix Advertiser (27:33)

Your business is one of a kind, so your website should be too. With wix, it's easy, almost too easy to create a website that's perfectly yours. Just tell AI what kind of site you want to build or choose from. Thousands of templates. Change whatever you want, whenever you want and get everything you need to start running your business your way. No matter what you sell or what you aspire to be. You can do it all yourself on Wix.

McDonald's Customer (27:59)

Imma put you on nephew.

Dominica Ferro (28:01)

All right. Welcome to McDonald's. Can I take your order, miss.

McDonald's Customer (28:04)

I've been hitting up McDonald's for years. Now it's back. We need snack wraps. What's a snack wrap? It's the return of something great. Snack wrap is back.