Spies Are People Too - All Of It with Alison Stewart

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Spies Are People Too"
Podcast: All Of It
Host: Alison Stewart
Episode Title: Spies Are People Too
Release Date: December 17, 2024
Duration: Approximately 15 minutes

Introduction: The Human Side of Spies

In the episode titled "Spies Are People Too," host Alison Stewart delves into the evolving portrayal of spies in contemporary television. Moving beyond the traditional lone operative archetype, the discussion highlights a trend where spies are depicted with families, long-term partners, and intricate personal relationships. This shift underscores the psychological toll of leading a double life and its impact on personal relationships.

Alison Stewart [00:17]:
"Earlier today I talked to Michael Fassbender about his role as a CIA operative on the new show the Agency, which explores the human side of living a double life and how it affects loved ones."

Traditional vs. Modern Spy Portrayals

Eric Deggans, NPR's TV critic, contrasts the classic image of spies like James Bond with the newer, more relatable characters seen in current TV series.

Eric Deggans [01:21]:
"We are used to the tropes that were created by the James Bond franchise. So what we see with James Bond, he's a loner... No children in the mix, really."

He explains that the modern spy archetype includes significant others and children, adding depth and relatability. This approach not only humanizes the characters but also provides richer narrative material for multi-episode storylines.

Eric Deggans [02:45]:
"It makes them more relatable... These are people who seem more like yourself. They are negotiating a lot of the same issues you're negotiating, except when they get in a knife fight with an assassin, they can kick their butt and win."

Impact on Storytelling and Character Development

The integration of personal lives into spy narratives allows for more complex and engaging storylines. Deggans cites examples like The Day of the Jackal on Peacock, where both the assassin and the MI6 agent have families, creating parallel personal conflicts alongside their professional ones.

Eric Deggans [03:45]:
"They have to deal with the fact that they have the super demanding job that requires them to be ruthless in one area. And then they’re trying to come home and explain why they're gone all the time."

Spotlight on Specific Spy Shows

The Agency with Michael Fassbender

Alison Stewart discusses The Agency, highlighting Fassbender's character who juggles an affair and parenting while maintaining his covert operations.

Eric Deggans [04:52]:
"Michael Fassbender's character is an agent who was in a cover for five years, started having an affair with a married woman, fell in love with her, and told the agency that he had broken up with her, but really he was trying to maintain the relationship."

This duality adds layers to Fassbender's character, portraying him not just as an effective agent but also as a devoted parent and a flawed individual struggling with personal relationships.

Black Doves Featuring Keira Knightley

Black Doves centers on Keira Knightley’s character, a spy married with children who uncovers a conspiracy tied to her husband’s career.

Eric Deggans [06:15]:
"Keira Knightley plays a woman who has been married to this guy for 10 years. She has two kids with him... she's been spying on him for a private intelligence agency for 10 years."

The show explores themes of trust, love, and the moral ambiguities of espionage, emphasizing Knightley’s ability to balance her roles as a mother, spouse, and spy.

Alison Stewart [07:28]:
"Do you buy Keira Knightley as a spy?"

Eric Deggans [07:30]:
"I do. I thought one of the best things about the show was her physicality and her ability to embody the perfect mom, the perfect work spouse."

Slow Horses with Gary Oldman

In discussing Slow Horses, Deggans praises Gary Oldman’s portrayal of Jackson Lamb, a seemingly disinterested head managing a team of MI5 misfits.

Eric Deggans [08:40]:
"Jackson is experienced and savvy enough that he's able to make them into an effective group, even though they are a bunch of misfits who often make their own decisions."

This dynamic adds humor and depth, showcasing how unconventional leadership can yield competent outcomes in espionage operations.

The London Connection: Epicenter of Spy Narratives

Alison Stewart raises an intriguing question about the prevalence of London as the setting for modern spy shows.

Alison Stewart [10:44]:
"A lot of them are based in London. Like, aside from cctv, why is London the current epicenter of the spy universe on TV?"

Eric Deggans [10:57]:
"Some of it is chance... Many are co-productions with British TV outlets. The British have a special claim on our feelings about spies because of James Bond."

He further elaborates on how Britain's rich history in espionage fiction and longstanding franchises like James Bond have cemented London’s status as a quintessential spy setting.

Character Archetypes: Anti-heroes vs. Villains

The discussion also delves into the nuanced portrayal of protagonists and antagonists in spy series.

Eric Deggans [12:45]:
"The difference between anti heroes and villains is that anti heroes connect with some people. They have people in their lives that they are devoted to... Villains don't connect with people. Villains only care about themselves."

This distinction highlights the moral complexities within characters, making them more relatable and compelling to audiences.

The Americans and Diplomat: Balancing Career and Personal Life

Deggans touches upon The Americans and Diplomat as exemplars of the spy-with-family trope. He emphasizes the challenges protagonists face in balancing demanding careers with maintaining personal relationships.

Eric Deggans [14:05]:
"She feels like she's made decisions to hold her career back to serve the relationship. And she's upset because... she's trying to keep secrets of the relationship and her job."

This internal conflict resonates with many viewers, reflecting real-life dilemmas of prioritizing between professional ambitions and personal commitments.

Conclusion: The Evolution of the Spy Genre

"Spies Are People Too" effectively captures the transformation of the spy genre from glorified, isolated operatives to multifaceted individuals grappling with personal and professional challenges. By humanizing spies, modern television not only enriches storytelling but also fosters a deeper connection between characters and audiences.

Alison Stewart [14:47]:
"Eric Deggans is NPR's TV critic. Thanks for talking spies with us."

The episode underscores the importance of diverse perspectives and relatable characters in enhancing the cultural tapestry of contemporary media.

Notable Quotes:

Alison Stewart [00:17]:
"The human side of living a double life and how it affects loved ones."
Eric Deggans [01:21]:
"James Bond was, was for men of a certain age... but the modern spies seem more like yourself."
Eric Deggans [02:45]:
"These are people who seem more like yourself... there's some aspirational stuff in, but, but they are much more relatable."
Eric Deggans [10:57]:
"The British have a special claim on our feelings about spies because of James Bond."
Eric Deggans [12:45]:
"Anti heroes connect with some people... Villains don't connect with people. Villains only care about themselves."

This detailed summary encapsulates the key discussions and insights from the "Spies Are People Too" episode of All Of It, providing a comprehensive overview for those who haven't listened to the episode.

Transcript

Eric Deggans (0:04)

Listener support, WNYC Studios.

Alison Stewart (0:17)

This is all of it. I'm Alison Stewart. Earlier today I talked to Michael Fassbender about his role as a CIA operative on the new show the Agency, which explores the human side of living a double life and how it affects loved ones. This season there's been a proliferation of a new type of spy on TV from series like the Agency, Black Doves and the upcoming the Day of the Jackal feature spies having families, long term partners and closer relationships. They also have to deal with the psychological effects of having to constantly keep secrets or be someone you're not. Eric Deggans, TV critic for npr, explored this trend of spies with families in a recent piece for npr. Hi, Eric.

Eric Deggans (0:56)

Hey.

Alison Stewart (0:56)

And listeners, we want to know who are your favorite spy thrillers? Are you watching any current ones? Or maybe you have a classic spy character that you really love. Are you more James Bond or Jackson Lamb? Give us a call, 2124-3396-9221-2433. WNYC. You can call or you can text to us. Eric, how has the spy historically been portrayed on film?

Eric Deggans (1:21)

Well, you know, we are used to the tropes that were created by the James Bond franchise. So what we see with James Bo, he's a loner. There have been bonds that have had romantic entanglements and there was even a Bond that got married. But for the most part, he's a loner. He travels the world. He is very focused on his mission and he has lots of different relationships with lots of different women. No children in the mix, really. The, the, the la, the Daniel Craig bond in the last movie he did have a child, but, but for the most part, no, no kids. And this so this new flavor of spy, you know, has significant others, a husband, a wife, a spouse, someone that they care a lot about. They are bonded to, that they go home to every night. And they have to deal with the fact that they have the super demanding job that requires them to be ruthless in one area. And then they, they're trying to come home and explain why they're gone all the time, why they have all these, you know, sort of issues that arise from their work. Why aren't they help care of their children? It's stuff that a lot of us are negotiating, but it's blown up into this giant canvas by these, these spy shows, these espionage shows.

Alison Stewart (2:39)

How does showing family or relationships, you know, has it humanized the characters?

Eric Deggans (2:45)

Well, I think it does a couple of things. First, it makes them more relatable. The thing that, that, you know, you don't necessarily want to relate to James Bond. James Bond was, was for men of a certain age, maybe a little older than me, was, was a cool figure that you might somehow aspire to be like. But you didn't run into James Bond when you were hanging out, you know, at the office. These are people who seem more like yourself. They are negotiating a lot of the same issues you're negotiating, except when they get in a knife fight with an assassin, they can kick their butt and win. So in some ways, you know, there's some aspirational stuff in, but, but they are much more relatable. And the other thing is these spies that we're talking about are mostly in television shows. And so you need to figure out how to stretch this, the story over multiple episodes. And so if you can have a storyline where they're going home and they're dealing with a spouse who's disaffected, they're dealing with kids, they're dealing with trying to, you know, keep their family secret from their enemies, that can add a lot of elements to the story that can fill out eight episodes so that it doesn't feel like, you know, the story is too thin to stretch across eight episodes. We particularly saw this with the Day of the Jackal, for example, on Peacock, where Eddie Redmayne's character, he plays an assassin, he has a family, and he's being chased by an MI6 agent, an intelligence agent from Britain who also has a family. She has a husband and a child. And so all of those storylines just help fill out the show to the point where it made it much more compelling to watch over multiple episodes.