Spies Are People Too

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Spies Are People Too"
Podcast: All Of It
Host: Alison Stewart
Episode Title: Spies Are People Too
Release Date: December 17, 2024
Duration: Approximately 15 minutes

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Introduction: The Human Side of Spies

In the episode titled "Spies Are People Too," host Alison Stewart delves into the evolving portrayal of spies in contemporary television. Moving beyond the traditional lone operative archetype, the discussion highlights a trend where spies are depicted with families, long-term partners, and intricate personal relationships. This shift underscores the psychological toll of leading a double life and its impact on personal relationships.

Alison Stewart [00:17]:
"Earlier today I talked to Michael Fassbender about his role as a CIA operative on the new show the Agency, which explores the human side of living a double life and how it affects loved ones."

Traditional vs. Modern Spy Portrayals

Eric Deggans, NPR's TV critic, contrasts the classic image of spies like James Bond with the newer, more relatable characters seen in current TV series.

Eric Deggans [01:21]:
"We are used to the tropes that were created by the James Bond franchise. So what we see with James Bond, he's a loner... No children in the mix, really."

He explains that the modern spy archetype includes significant others and children, adding depth and relatability. This approach not only humanizes the characters but also provides richer narrative material for multi-episode storylines.

Eric Deggans [02:45]:
"It makes them more relatable... These are people who seem more like yourself. They are negotiating a lot of the same issues you're negotiating, except when they get in a knife fight with an assassin, they can kick their butt and win."

Impact on Storytelling and Character Development

The integration of personal lives into spy narratives allows for more complex and engaging storylines. Deggans cites examples like The Day of the Jackal on Peacock, where both the assassin and the MI6 agent have families, creating parallel personal conflicts alongside their professional ones.

Eric Deggans [03:45]:
"They have to deal with the fact that they have the super demanding job that requires them to be ruthless in one area. And then they’re trying to come home and explain why they're gone all the time."

Spotlight on Specific Spy Shows

The Agency with Michael Fassbender

Alison Stewart discusses The Agency, highlighting Fassbender's character who juggles an affair and parenting while maintaining his covert operations.

Eric Deggans [04:52]:
"Michael Fassbender's character is an agent who was in a cover for five years, started having an affair with a married woman, fell in love with her, and told the agency that he had broken up with her, but really he was trying to maintain the relationship."

This duality adds layers to Fassbender's character, portraying him not just as an effective agent but also as a devoted parent and a flawed individual struggling with personal relationships.

Black Doves Featuring Keira Knightley

Black Doves centers on Keira Knightley’s character, a spy married with children who uncovers a conspiracy tied to her husband’s career.

Eric Deggans [06:15]:
"Keira Knightley plays a woman who has been married to this guy for 10 years. She has two kids with him... she's been spying on him for a private intelligence agency for 10 years."

The show explores themes of trust, love, and the moral ambiguities of espionage, emphasizing Knightley’s ability to balance her roles as a mother, spouse, and spy.

Alison Stewart [07:28]:
"Do you buy Keira Knightley as a spy?"

Eric Deggans [07:30]:
"I do. I thought one of the best things about the show was her physicality and her ability to embody the perfect mom, the perfect work spouse."

Slow Horses with Gary Oldman

In discussing Slow Horses, Deggans praises Gary Oldman’s portrayal of Jackson Lamb, a seemingly disinterested head managing a team of MI5 misfits.

Eric Deggans [08:40]:
"Jackson is experienced and savvy enough that he's able to make them into an effective group, even though they are a bunch of misfits who often make their own decisions."

This dynamic adds humor and depth, showcasing how unconventional leadership can yield competent outcomes in espionage operations.

The London Connection: Epicenter of Spy Narratives

Alison Stewart raises an intriguing question about the prevalence of London as the setting for modern spy shows.

Alison Stewart [10:44]:
"A lot of them are based in London. Like, aside from cctv, why is London the current epicenter of the spy universe on TV?"

Eric Deggans [10:57]:
"Some of it is chance... Many are co-productions with British TV outlets. The British have a special claim on our feelings about spies because of James Bond."

He further elaborates on how Britain's rich history in espionage fiction and longstanding franchises like James Bond have cemented London’s status as a quintessential spy setting.

Character Archetypes: Anti-heroes vs. Villains

The discussion also delves into the nuanced portrayal of protagonists and antagonists in spy series.

Eric Deggans [12:45]:
"The difference between anti heroes and villains is that anti heroes connect with some people. They have people in their lives that they are devoted to... Villains don't connect with people. Villains only care about themselves."

This distinction highlights the moral complexities within characters, making them more relatable and compelling to audiences.

The Americans and Diplomat: Balancing Career and Personal Life

Deggans touches upon The Americans and Diplomat as exemplars of the spy-with-family trope. He emphasizes the challenges protagonists face in balancing demanding careers with maintaining personal relationships.

Eric Deggans [14:05]:
"She feels like she's made decisions to hold her career back to serve the relationship. And she's upset because... she's trying to keep secrets of the relationship and her job."

This internal conflict resonates with many viewers, reflecting real-life dilemmas of prioritizing between professional ambitions and personal commitments.

Conclusion: The Evolution of the Spy Genre

"Spies Are People Too" effectively captures the transformation of the spy genre from glorified, isolated operatives to multifaceted individuals grappling with personal and professional challenges. By humanizing spies, modern television not only enriches storytelling but also fosters a deeper connection between characters and audiences.

Alison Stewart [14:47]:
"Eric Deggans is NPR's TV critic. Thanks for talking spies with us."

The episode underscores the importance of diverse perspectives and relatable characters in enhancing the cultural tapestry of contemporary media.

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Notable Quotes:

• Alison Stewart [00:17]:
  "The human side of living a double life and how it affects loved ones."

• Eric Deggans [01:21]:
  "James Bond was, was for men of a certain age... but the modern spies seem more like yourself."

• Eric Deggans [02:45]:
  "These are people who seem more like yourself... there's some aspirational stuff in, but, but they are much more relatable."

• Eric Deggans [10:57]:
  "The British have a special claim on our feelings about spies because of James Bond."

• Eric Deggans [12:45]:
  "Anti heroes connect with some people... Villains don't connect with people. Villains only care about themselves."

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This detailed summary encapsulates the key discussions and insights from the "Spies Are People Too" episode of All Of It, providing a comprehensive overview for those who haven't listened to the episode.

Transcript

[Eric Deggans]

Listener support, WNYC Studios.

[Alison Stewart]

This is all of it. I'm Alison Stewart. Earlier today I talked to Michael Fassbender about his role as a CIA operative on the new show the Agency, which explores the human side of living a double life and how it affects loved ones. This season there's been a proliferation of a new type of spy on TV from series like the Agency, Black Doves and the upcoming the Day of the Jackal feature spies having families, long term partners and closer relationships. They also have to deal with the psychological effects of having to constantly keep secrets or be someone you're not. Eric Deggans, TV critic for npr, explored this trend of spies with families in a recent piece for npr. Hi, Eric.

[Eric Deggans]

Hey.

[Alison Stewart]

And listeners, we want to know who are your favorite spy thrillers? Are you watching any current ones? Or maybe you have a classic spy character that you really love. Are you more James Bond or Jackson Lamb? Give us a call, 2124-3396-9221-2433. WNYC. You can call or you can text to us. Eric, how has the spy historically been portrayed on film?

[Eric Deggans]

Well, you know, we are used to the tropes that were created by the James Bond franchise. So what we see with James Bo, he's a loner. There have been bonds that have had romantic entanglements and there was even a Bond that got married. But for the most part, he's a loner. He travels the world. He is very focused on his mission and he has lots of different relationships with lots of different women. No children in the mix, really. The, the, the la, the Daniel Craig bond in the last movie he did have a child, but, but for the most part, no, no kids. And this so this new flavor of spy, you know, has significant others, a husband, a wife, a spouse, someone that they care a lot about. They are bonded to, that they go home to every night. And they have to deal with the fact that they have the super demanding job that requires them to be ruthless in one area. And then they, they're trying to come home and explain why they're gone all the time, why they have all these, you know, sort of issues that arise from their work. Why aren't they help care of their children? It's stuff that a lot of us are negotiating, but it's blown up into this giant canvas by these, these spy shows, these espionage shows.

[Alison Stewart]

How does showing family or relationships, you know, has it humanized the characters?

[Eric Deggans]

Well, I think it does a couple of things. First, it makes them more relatable. The thing that, that, you know, you don't necessarily want to relate to James Bond. James Bond was, was for men of a certain age, maybe a little older than me, was, was a cool figure that you might somehow aspire to be like. But you didn't run into James Bond when you were hanging out, you know, at the office. These are people who seem more like yourself. They are negotiating a lot of the same issues you're negotiating, except when they get in a knife fight with an assassin, they can kick their butt and win. So in some ways, you know, there's some aspirational stuff in, but, but they are much more relatable. And the other thing is these spies that we're talking about are mostly in television shows. And so you need to figure out how to stretch this, the story over multiple episodes. And so if you can have a storyline where they're going home and they're dealing with a spouse who's disaffected, they're dealing with kids, they're dealing with trying to, you know, keep their family secret from their enemies, that can add a lot of elements to the story that can fill out eight episodes so that it doesn't feel like, you know, the story is too thin to stretch across eight episodes. We particularly saw this with the Day of the Jackal, for example, on Peacock, where Eddie Redmayne's character, he plays an assassin, he has a family, and he's being chased by an MI6 agent, an intelligence agent from Britain who also has a family. She has a husband and a child. And so all of those storylines just help fill out the show to the point where it made it much more compelling to watch over multiple episodes.

[Michael Fassbender]

You listen to eric Deggans, he's NPR's TV critic. We are talking about the proliferation of spy series listeners. What are your favorite spy thrillers? Are you watching any current ones now? Do you have a classic spy character you love? Our number is 2124-3396-9221-2433. WNYC. Let's talk about a couple of specific shows. We've spoken about the Agency in detail today with Michael Fassbender. Any thoughts on that show?

[Eric Deggans]

Well, you know, that's a remake. I'm sure you already said that's a remake of a French show. And what's interest is that in some ways it's about the lies you have to tell in that job. So Michael Fassbender's character is an agent who was in a, in a cover for five years, started having an affair with A married woman fell in love with her, told the agency that he had broken up with her, but really he was trying to maintain the relationship. And then there becomes some question about who exactly is she? Is she working him? You know, and then he also has, you know, teenage daughter who is. Is suspicious of this job that her. This demanding job that has taken her father away from her. And she's highly critical of how he's handled those decisions. And so it's really interesting. And then, you know, Jeffrey Wright has a character where, you know, he's connected to some people that he cares about that are also in trouble. And so, again, it's a way of showing multiple sides of a character. We don't just see Michael Fassbender being ineffective agent. We see him trying to be an effective parent. We see him trying to maintain this relationship with a woman that he loves, even though he's been lying to her about who. Who he is, and she might be lying to him about who she is.

[Alison Stewart]

Oh, it's beautiful. It's all beautiful.

[Eric Deggans]

Gotta love it. Gotta love it.

[Alison Stewart]

Black doves. Tell me more about black doves.

[Eric Deggans]

So that's Keira Knightley playing this woman who has been married to this guy for 10 years. She has two kids with him. He's an up and coming British official. And it turns out that she's been spying on him for a private esp. Nash intelligence agency for 10 years. And she decided to have an affair because she was feeling unsatisfied in the marriage. And then the man she was having an affair with got killed, and it turns out got assassinated. And it turns out he's at the center of this plot that she wants to try and unravel. And as she unravels it, she has to keep her family safe. And she also asked questions about whether she still loves her husband or not. And her muscle, the guy who's called in to sort of back her up on some missions, is played by Ben Whishaw. And he also had a partner. He's gay, but he had a partner in London that he was connected to, that he broke up with. He's back in town. He's wondering whether he should reconnect with this person. And that person has a child. And so both characters have significant others that they care about and children that they care about. And they have to decide how to keep them safe and negotiate connecting with them while they're in the middle of this gigantic espionage story.

[Alison Stewart]

Do you buy Keira Knightley as a spy?

[Eric Deggans]

I do. I thought one of the best Things about the, the show is, was her physicality and her ability to be the embody. The perfect mom, in a way, the perfect work, this perfect spouse, professional spouse. You know, she, she seemed to organize this, this holiday party that they were at the center of. And she's witty and charming and beautiful and great with the kids. And then she goes to investigate this apartment and she runs into two assassins and she takes them out. I mean, she started, you know, she co starred in the, in the Pirates of the Caribbean movie. So she knows her way around an action scene. And so I, you know, there's, with all of these movies, whether you're watching, whether you're talking about James Bond or you're talking about Black Doves or you're talking about Slow Horses, there's a suspension of disbelief that has to happen. Of course there's a bunch of outlandish stuff that happens, but she sells it. She sells it really well. And one thing that I think is a constant about all the shows we're going to talk about is that the cast are really good and the actors are always doing a great job.

[Michael Fassbender]

Let's talk about Gary Oldman.

[Alison Stewart]

He stars in Slow Horses.

[Michael Fassbender]

I'm just waiting for it to come back.

[Eric Deggans]

Yes, you and me both. You know, I had the pleasure of interviewing Gary Oldman not too long ago for a public media show called the Business. And you know, he loves playing Jackson Lamb as much as we love watching him play Jackson Lamb, which is so awesome. What a wonderful character. This slovenly guy who on the surface doesn't care about anything, but of course, beneath that cares very much about the misfits that he's managing in this department that MI5 is sort of designated as. This is where we dump the problem children. This is where we dump the people that we don't think are good spies. And Jackson is experienced and savvy enough that he's able to make them into an effective group, even though they are a bunch of misfits who often make their own decisions.

[Michael Fassbender]

Got a text here that says, what.

[Alison Stewart]

About the new Mr. And Mrs. Smith? So good. Such a spin on its head.

[Eric Deggans]

Yeah, that's a great one. For me, that was a little bit of a borderline one just for my story because technically those two characters are not married. They're pretending to be married and they don't, and they don't. And they don't have children. But it is Mr. And Ms. What's great about Mr. And Mrs. Smith. This is a TV show streaming thing on Prime Video, starring Donna Glover And Maya Erskine, based on the movie with Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt. And they play these two people who are just hired by an intelligence agency and they are tasked with pretending to be married. And so they are learning how to do the espionage job while they're also learning each other. And it is an allegory for how relationships build and, and how you get to know somebody and how you might fall in love with somebody and how you might also sort of start to realize that they have all these sides to them that you don't necessarily like. And so, so it's a great allegory for all the things that. And then they end up in couples counseling even. So it's a great allegory for all the things that you go through in building a relationship. The only reason I didn't include them in my story is because the show was on a long time ago and, and, and they're not actually married and they don't have children.

[Alison Stewart]

I have a question for you as someone who is writing about these shows. A lot of them are based in London. Like, aside from cctv, why is London the current epicenter of the spy universe on tv?

[Eric Deggans]

That's a good question. I think some of it is chance. I mean, you know, Slow Horses was based on a novel by a British writer. I think some of it is an attempt to sort of. And some of these are co productions with British TV show TV outlets too. I think the Day of the Jackal, for example, was a co production with a, with a British outlet. So that might be one reason why it's also set in Britain. And then there's also like the Brits always have a special claim on our feelings about spies because of James Bond. And it's hard to understate what a splash the James Bond movies made in the 60s and what a craze that, that inspired, you know, everything from, you know, the Saint with a TV show that was, you know, Roger Moore's first big part playing a spy. He would go on to play James Bond to Get Smart, which is a wonderful satire series that, that, that brought us Don Adams and, and Mel Brooks was involved, you know, so, so, so that was a huge craze, I think, throughout the 60s and early 70s. You know, our Man Flint, you know, there was an American offshoot, an American espionage guy who was kind of Bond, but American, played by James Coburn. And, and so that is, that just sticks in our pop culture DNA. And so now we've had a version of James Bond that's been modernized, I think Daniel Craig did a great job of modernizing James Bond to the point where he wasn't quite as sexist, he wasn't quite as retrograde. He was a little more grounded in reality, just a little more and a little more understandable as a character. He always tried to play him as a guy that maybe we could connect with, even if he's particularly dysfunctional. And then we get to these modern characters that are very much like, you know, you would imagine if somebody's job is to sort of inform on people all the time and occasionally be called on to kill people, that they would be emotionally shut down, that they would not be able to connect with people. The difference between anti heroes and villains is that anti heroes connect with some people. They have people in their lives that they are devoted to, and they have values that you can understand and admire. Villains don't connect with people. Villains only care about themselves, and they will turn on anyone in order to advance their own agenda. And so, you know, you can see it play out in all these shows. You know, who are the villain characters? The villain characters are the people who don't care about anybody. Who are the antiheroes. Antiheroes are people who have folks they want to keep safe, and they work very hard to keep them safe, even if it means killing other characters.

[Alison Stewart]

This text says the Americans was a great example of Spies with Family, a classic. This dovetails nicely into the Diplomat with Keri Russell in both of them. But actually, the agency that is run on the Diplomat is the CIA, and Ali on is the character. And it really is hard for her to keep her job and keep. Well, it's not hard for her job. It's hard to keep the secrets of the relationship and her job. What makes her especially relatable?

[Eric Deggans]

Yes. Well, she's a woman. She's a career woman, very independent, very good at her job. And she feels as if this relationship that she has with the chief of staff, Akira Russell's character, is holding her back. And she's upset because. Because she feels like. Like she's made decisions to hold her career back to serve the relationship. And then the guy in the relationship turns around and says, hey, I'm going to do something else. And she's like, wait a minute, what? And. And how many of us can relate to having those conversations? You know, if you're both. If. If you're two people and you both have careers and you both have to decide which career takes precedent at which time we, many of us, have had those conversations.

[Alison Stewart]

Eric Deggans is NPR's TV critic. Thanks for talking spies with us.

[Eric Deggans]

Oh, anytime. It's my pleasure.

[Alison Stewart]

And that's all of it today. All week long here of all of it. We're talking about big new movies. On Monday, we talked about Nesferatu and Baby Girl. Today we talked about the Brutalist. And tomorrow we'll talk about the new film September 5th. I'm Alison Stewart. I appreciate you listening and I appreciate you. I will meet you back here next time.

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[Unknown]

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