Alison Stewart (4:03)

What were you wrestling with? Nia said you were sort of wrestling with the script.

Nia DaCosta (4:09)

I was wrestling with Hedda, like, in the mud, like rain, falling lightning. I'm like, what is happen? Who are you? You know? But the thing about that wrestling is that everyone does that with her. I've spoken to three or four women who've played Hedda, and they all see her differently. And that's what I love about her. She's like a real person. And so the wrestling was really like, okay, what version of her do I wanna speak of and through? And what version of her do I wanna see Tessa take on? Because I knew when I was writing it that Tessa, in an ideal world, which is the world we're in, she'd be playing her.

Tessa Thompson (4:49)

Are we in an ideal world?

Alison Stewart (4:50)

Whoa. In this room, we're not ideal world.

Nia DaCosta (4:55)

We're absolutely in the darkest timeline. But ideally, the world of my movie had a idea.

Alison Stewart (5:01)

Did you watch past Hedda's? Because I found myself. I watched a film and then I went down and I watched one from, like, 1950s. I said, it's so interesting to watch the different actresses take on Hedda.

Tessa Thompson (5:12)

It's amazing. I think that's the cool thing about doing any of this canonical Work is. You're a part of a tradition. And I did. I watched many. I couldn't help myself because I had never seen. I hadn't had the ch. Nia to see Hedda on stage. And so I was really fascinated. And also because I think we were breaking some of the rules of the piece, I wanted to understand the rules we were breaking. So I watched as many as I could get my hands on. And it was. It was such a pleasure.

Alison Stewart (5:38)

Nia, you originally thought you might do this for the stage, is that right?

Nia DaCosta (5:41)

Yeah, I thought just because it's a play, I thought I'd do it as a play. And then filmic images kept coming to me. When I was thinking about it, especially in the gap between what I'd read and what I'd seen on stage, I was like, oh, no, that's not. I thought I saw this, I saw that. And so I also just wanted to sort of, like Desa was saying, break it apart a bit more.

Alison Stewart (6:00)

What kind of filmic images came to your mind? That's interesting.

Nia DaCosta (6:03)

Well, so they. The first one centered around Hedda and the judge and that relationship and having it be more text than subtext. Okay. And this image I had of them secreted away somewhere, and from a distance, all you see is Hedda's hand bracing herself on the corner of a wall. And. But you don't see them. You just see her hand, like, as if you're around the corner. And that image, to me, really said a lot about that relationship, about Hedda, about the public versus private spheres that I really felt in the play. And you can do that on stage. Absolutely. And I've seen it done beautifully, but it just became a movie in that moment.

Alison Stewart (6:44)

Tessa, you are producing this through your production company. Viva Mod. First of all, what does Viva Maude stand for?

Tessa Thompson (6:51)

I'm a big fan of the film Harold and Maude, and most especially that character Maude, that I think sort of started a filmic trope. I think she's like one of the first occurrences of the Manic Pixie Dream Girl, except she destroys the trope because she also happens to be in her 80s and has a death wish. So I've just always been in love with her. And it's just, you know, Viva, the spirit of challenging and interesting protagonists and things that are both of their time and ahead of them all.

Alison Stewart (7:22)

Right. Through Viva Maude, your production company, you're a producer on this film as well. What was interesting to you about being a producer?

Tessa Thompson (7:30)

I've had the chance to produce on Other things. I made a film called Passing. And technically I also produced first film Little Woods. But it's, you know, it's very different I think when you. The sort of producing that I'm doing now, which is really, you know, in. In earnest. And I feel really grateful that Nia let me into that process. You know, there wasn't a lot of work to get the film set. I think we got really lucky in some ways. She wrote this incredible screenplay and Orion, mgm, our partners wanted to make it and wanted to make it exactly in the way that she imagined it so we didn't have to develop it like I've had to do with so many other projects. You know, you're sort of pushing something up a mountain.

Alison Stewart (8:08)

An amazing thing.

Tessa Thompson (8:09)

It's an incredible gift. But I would say, you know, something that I had to sharpen my kind of skills at is seeing a film through the post production and, you know, wrestling with seeing yourself in all the frames many, many, many times because you make a movie again in the edit for sure. So that's something that, yeah, I'm learning how to do.

Alison Stewart (8:31)

What have you learned about being a producer that you wouldn't know about being a producer until you're a producer?

Tessa Thompson (8:37)

You know, I think I have been making movies for almost two decades, which is crazy to admit, and that I can't believe time FL when you're having fun. But I've learned so much more about all of the departments and what people do. You know, movies are incredibly collaborative and actors typically come, you know, in right at the end. In some ways we're like the least essential, even though we, you know, get immortalized.

Nia DaCosta (9:06)

But I.

Tessa Thompson (9:07)

So I think it's just been a process of really leaning in and learning so, so much about the process of making a movie and really what it takes to prettisorily see a filmmaker's vision through, you know, all of the fights and mini concessions and things that you do to. To make a thing.

Alison Stewart (9:24)

Nia, you took the script from 1890s Norway to 1950s England in this giant manner. Tell us why this time period and place felt interesting for this adaptation.

Nia DaCosta (9:38)

Yeah, I really wanted to because I was changing certain aspects of the relationships in the play and I was changing Eilert Love Borg to Eileen Loveborg and then Hedda would be queer. And I was making these changes. I wanted to situate it in a place that was familiar to us as a repressive conformist time and place. And I think the 1950s, when we think about that from a cultural and a Pop cultural point of view. If I said, oh, 1950s repression, everyone's like, yeah, for sure. That makes sense. England and repression go hand in hand with love. I say that. And so I just thought 1950s England would be perfect. But also it's. It's a time of manners, it's a time of pretending. And so much of Hedda is about pretending. And I think the reason why the 1950s were a time of pretending and conformity was post World War II trauma and trying to figure out how do we put society back together the way it was. But you can never go back to the way something was. Which I think a lot of people, as a trauma response, just think, I need to go back to how I was before. But you can't. And I think Hedda's learning that as well. You can only go forward. So the time period, I think it spoke a lot to what I wanted to talk about with Hedda as well.

Alison Stewart (10:50)

A new adaptation of Henrik Ibsen's play. Hedda follows newlywed Hedda as she's played by Tessa Thompson, as she schemes her way to get her husband's promotion at work. Its director, Nia Dacosta, is here. It is streaming now on Prime Video. So we see Hedda, she's doing her Virginia Woolf thing.

Nia DaCosta (11:12)

I love Avram picked up on that right away.

Alison Stewart (11:16)

But she changes her mind. She turns around at that moment, what does Hedda want?

Tessa Thompson (11:24)

She. So in the original piece, spoiler alert. If people haven't read the play, Hedda Gabler shoots herself at the end of the play. I think our portrait of Hedda is a woman who is dying to live and she hears Eileen's name and that's as good a reason as any. So I think what she wants in that moment is to see if a choice that she wasn't brave enough to make in the past might be possible in some way now. And I think it sort of animates and energizes her.

Alison Stewart (12:01)

That scene when she comes out of the water and she's walking up to take the phone call from her lover and we see her feet and her imprints on the floor and there's a. Behind a screen, we see her profile. Tell me a little bit about the decision to take that call. And we don't see her take it initially, but we just see her profile behind kind of a old fashioned glass.

Nia DaCosta (12:28)

Yeah, I wanted to. I didn't want the audience to immediately be inside of Hedda's experience. I wanted the context of her world to. To take the forefront because the first time we get a close up of Hedda, it's at the end of this long, sort of you seeing her house, you see her prepare for this party, seeing all the trappings of her life, you see her out of focus in the background. I wanted it to be a journey to get to the woman.

Alison Stewart (12:54)

Yeah.

Nia DaCosta (12:55)

And by the time you get to the woman, by the time you're like, oh, here she is, you've experienced her world in a way. One, that she's very unhappy with it, two, what that world is, and then. And then herself. So that's why I wanted. I wanted to do that way. Yeah.

Alison Stewart (13:11)

It's interesting to see Hedda because she looks gorgeous in all these outfits. I'm curious though, what is it like for you to put on the suit to go to work? I mean, that's what actors are doing, they're putting on their costumes. But it's a suit of sorts.

Tessa Thompson (13:26)

Yeah, it completely is a suit. I mean, in this case, I think also Hedda is a woman herself who's putting on sort of a suit, who has kind of armor and has a kind of construction of self. And I also think it's very emblematic of women during that time. You know, I look at photographs of my grandmothers and one of them who's still alive, you know, is in her 80s and, you know, every single day, I mean, she struggles with dementia and Alzheimer's, but she never forgets to put on her red lipstick. You know, remarkably, it's so incredibly linked to her identity is that, you know, her beauty was a part of her power. And I think Hedda is a woman who is really trapped inside of that way of thinking as well, which is both a blessing and a curse, I think, to feel like you have that at your veil as a woman, but to feel like you don't have much else is its own kind of prison. So, you know, I always think that what you wear inside of a character also always informs work. I think in this case, this green dress that allows her to be mercurial, to blend in with her background and also that really kind of hems her in the sort of boning of the time. It's not the most comfortable thing to wear. It informed a lot. Certainly it's weird.

Alison Stewart (14:45)

You said she's in a prison, but she's sort of the head of her own prison.

Tessa Thompson (14:49)

Oh, yeah.

Nia DaCosta (14:50)

At the same time, she's the warden. She's the warden, yeah.

Alison Stewart (14:54)

Tell me where this was filmed, Nia.

Nia DaCosta (14:57)

It was filmed in the Midlands at a place called Flintam hall owned by Sir Robert Hildeard, who so wonderfully let us just, you know, do whatever we wanted in there, except for eat or drink water. But we definitely were given freedom. Wait a minute.

Alison Stewart (15:16)

Okay, you had to shoot a party, first of all.

Nia DaCosta (15:17)

Yes. Yeah. So basically we had to find a place that would let us shoot a gun off the roof. Okay. Shoot fireworks at night and annoy all the neighbors. Smash a chandelier inside.

Tessa Thompson (15:29)

A very big chandelier inside of a glass room.

Nia DaCosta (15:32)

Yeah. Like, we had to find someone who would let us do that. And he did. But I think he also was like, okay, these books are hundreds of years old. This fireplace is, like, original antique. The floor is like, do not eat or drink.

Tessa Thompson (15:44)

Which, by the way, at the time I was challenging. I'm actually very glad because I am really prone to spilling things. I definitely.

Nia DaCosta (15:54)

I would have to.

Tessa Thompson (15:55)

Yeah, I would have. I'm so. I'm glad. It was a rule. It was very smart.

Nia DaCosta (15:59)

Yeah. Because it's so easy when you film. Like, I would never let anyone film in my house. Filming is. And we, you know, we always restore it back to the way it should be. But, like, it's just so many people, so much can happen. And I'm really proud of us because, honestly, like, we did. We did protect that house. But. And also, like, you know, anything that we didn't protect, like, it went back the way it was. But. But. But, for example, the chandelier scene, when the chandelier has to smash, we had to protect the floor. So we built a floor in that room. Like, everyone steps up into the. Into the conservatory or. Yeah, the conservatory in that movie. But actually, you don't normally do that. We had to build up a floor, protect the glass. Like, we took a lot of precautions to make sure that this beautiful home wasn't damaged.

Alison Stewart (16:42)

Did you have non negotiables? Things that had to happen? I mean, obviously the chandelier had to fall, but things that had to happen for this to be the location.

Nia DaCosta (16:51)

Yeah, yeah. The lake.

Tessa Thompson (16:52)

The lake, yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's sort of extraordinary. It's sort of extraordinary that we found this house. You know, it just had everything that we needed and wanted. And also, it's very, very rare, especially these days, to shoot a movie all in one location like that. And I really do think. I mean, people often say this, but I think it really is true in our film, which is that this location, this house becomes a character in the movie. You know, it plays a profound sort of role in Hedda and the choices that she's made. And the fact that we had access to it in that way is really an extraordinary gift, but rare to find a location that just is everything you need and want.

Alison Stewart (17:33)

Was it challenging to shoot in a house?

Nia DaCosta (17:36)

I like shooting inside real places just because I think what most people would see as challenges are actually, like, opportunities, kind of opportunities, but also, like, it makes the audience feel like we're in a real place as opposed to, like, if you're like, shooting through a wall, you know, you can feel when it. I always want people to feel like they're in the place. With the characters, there were definitely restrictions, for sure, but I think you just figure them out with the team. Like, that's like the. That's what prop's for, really. And then you figure them out with the team. We didn't have to lose anything, I don't think, because of the house.

Tessa Thompson (18:07)

No.

Nia DaCosta (18:08)

Yeah.

Alison Stewart (18:09)

I'm speaking with director Nia Dacosta and actor Tessa Thompson. We're talking about Hedda. It's now streaming on Prime Video. Her new flame, her old flame, Eileen Loveberg, comes to this party. Describe Eileen for me.

Nia DaCosta (18:25)

Oh, Eileen. I love Eileen so much. Eileen Lovborg is an academic. She's brilliant. She's troubled. She's an addict, she's an alcoholic, and she really struggles. Like, she really struggles. But she's on. When we meet her, she's been on the straight and narrow for a few months. She's met someone new who makes her feel like she can get through this life and be good in the way that she thinks she should be good. And she's incredibly ambitious, and she believes that her intellectual is her power and that will save her from everything else. She's also not so openly, but openly, but like, wink, wink, nudge, nudge, queer. And in the way that some women were able to sort of, you know, do it in that time. But that, you know, all that together creates this really compelling, empathetic, but also troubled women.

Alison Stewart (19:18)

Tessa Hedda chooses George to marry rather than continue her relationship with Eileen. Why does she choose George?

Tessa Thompson (19:29)

I think she chooses George because he is really the only viable option in her estimation. You know, never mind that she is a woman who wants a certain amount of access to privilege and resource in society during that time. But she's also, you know, a woman of color who is really, I think, limited in terms of choices that she can make during that time, in a real way. In the 50s, during that time, there were a lot of arrests that were happening for people that were suspected of homosexuality There was real danger at that time for being out funnily, or I don't know if it's funny, but women were actually not being arrested in the same way as men because there was this idea that our sexual sexuality didn't even really matter and it wasn't important enough to litigate. But even still, I think it was something that was still hugely stigmatized. And also, you know, when Eileen and Hedda, I always imagine, had their time together, which they sort of talk about in some of their scenes, they were not. It was a troublesome match. I mean, I don't know that either of them would have gotten out alive and certainly I don't know that they would have been able to pay their bills. You know what I mean? So I think she makes a choice that, that, that makes sense to her. And I think she frankly makes a choice that a lot of people make, which is they make they, you know, they get into marriages or relationships out of some, you know, pragmatic desire, and then they find themselves in lives that don't fit too squarely on them.

Alison Stewart (21:05)

We'll have more of my conversation with actor Tessa Thompson and writer director Nia Dacosta about their film Hedda, which is now streaming on Amazon Prime. That's coming up after the break. You are listening to all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. Actor Tessa Thompson is up for a Golden Globe Award for best performance in a Motion picture for her portrayal of Hedda Gobler. We're listening to part of my conversation with Tessa and director Nia Dacosta. A central concept of Henrik Ibsen's original play Hedda is agency. In this part of the interview, I asked Nia about how the story changes when Hedda is reimagined as a mixed race woman who happens to be bisexual in 1950s England.

Nia DaCosta (22:00)

Yeah, I mean, so knowing that I was writing with Tessa in mind, well, I also always knew I was just like, at the time I was writing it, I wanted all my leads to be black. Like, that was just really important to me. I was just like black women in particular. And then thinking about Tess, I was like, okay, Tessa, someone in this body is now going to be Hedda. So, so I just thought about what that meant at the time, what opportunities that offered for the story. You know, especially with like General Gobbler, who in the original is such an intense presence. And then you think about him being her white parent and that we never hear about her mother, her black mother. You know, it's like I found that really Dynamic and interesting. And I think that says a lot, if you know, of did listen, you know, her being a queer woman, I also found really interesting because, like, something I felt a lot growing up actually was like, I think when I realized, oh, people can be gay, like, I was like, there's so many, like, why don't we ever talk about it? I don't understand, like, because I'm like, that's not a big deal. No one in my family thought it was a big deal. So, like, why don't. And so I just imagine, especially in period pieces, they're so heteronormative. Like, I want to speak to that experience in that way. So for me, it just ended up making Hedda even more compelling, frankly.

Alison Stewart (23:14)

Tessa, how about for you? How does race and sexuality show up in Hedda's ability to be fully autonomous in the society?

Tessa Thompson (23:23)

Yeah, I would say it's always a choice, right? I mean, there were certainly instances, I'm sure, of women that were, you know, like Hedda, who had constraints of the time in the bodies that they existed in and still decided to make brave choices and to live with real autonomy. But I certainly think it really. It stands to challenge her ability to really find a real pathway to personhood. And I think the thing that's really interesting that you sort of see played out a little bit in some of these conversations between Eileen and Hedda. You know, they're both women of their time, understand the constraints of their time, but they are not the same. You know, Eileen doesn't have the same struggles that Hedda has and can't. She's not really capable of seeing that and having real empathy and understanding for that. And I certainly have been in situations, you know, where I'm talking to another woman and we're talking about our shared experiences. But also, there's nuance. There's intersectional nuance to mine, and that takes real, you know, listening and humility. And it always sort of felt kind of sad to me that they can't completely find that in each other.

Alison Stewart (24:43)

How did you decide on Hedda's voice?

Nia DaCosta (24:46)

Oh, this is so fun.

Tessa Thompson (24:50)

I sort of thought that there's. When I was sort of doing digging and listening to actual samples of voices during that time, particularly people in the aristocracy, I kind of couldn't believe, with all due respect, how silly some of these voices were. Just this idea that sort of the more wealth that you had and more power that you had, the less you have to even open your mouth, you know, to speak. And I just thought there were Such sort of interesting ways that people use their voices and. And just a fascinating thing about how mannered some of this speech felt and was. And I just thought it was really interesting if there was a part of Hedda that felt like she's kind of reaching for something that isn't entirely authentic to her. I mean, I think we see that for all of us, to varying degrees, this idea of sort of code switching. But I sort of found it interesting, someone that has switched completely, they have, like, one mode of existing and that gets expressed kind of in. Yeah, in the voice.

Alison Stewart (26:00)

Well, let's listen to a clip so people can hear what we're talking about. This is Hedda telling her husband, George, that Eileen, her former lover, is also applying for the same position. This is from Hedda.

Nia DaCosta (26:13)

I get this position and begin paying bills.

Tessa Thompson (26:15)

Eileen Lovborg is applying for your position at the university. Georgia Endowment and all.

Nia DaCosta (26:22)

What? She's asked to be considered. I'm in competition with that woman. She codes it up to press. A Greenwood's wife. George, what she gets up to?

Tessa Thompson (26:34)

What does she get up to? Oh, I'm sure you've heard the rumors. I've heard she's reformed, Changed away, stop drinking, apparently.

Nia DaCosta (26:43)

Really?

Tessa Thompson (26:44)

Well, she was at the innocent.

Nia DaCosta (26:46)

What does that matter? We got married, we borrowed money, we went into debt because the position was virtually mine. That was before the reappearance of Eileen, love.

Tessa Thompson (26:55)

Don't be afraid of little competition, Desmond.

Nia DaCosta (26:58)

This isn't a game. Do you even care?

Tessa Thompson (27:02)

I care deeply, my love. I can't wait to see how it turns out.

Alison Stewart (27:08)

That's from Hetta. In so many descriptions of Hedda Gabler, she's described as manipulative. Do you think she's manipulative?

Nia DaCosta (27:16)

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, for sure. But I think that, you know, she's learned what tools work for her.

Tessa Thompson (27:25)

And.

Nia DaCosta (27:25)

I think she's brilliant and she's chosen to use her brilliance in ways that she feels she has access to. And I think that does result in manipulations, you know, with no judgment about whether or not that's a good or bad thing, but. Yeah.

Alison Stewart (27:43)

Do you consider Hedda to be a bit manipulative?

Tessa Thompson (27:47)

No.

Alison Stewart (27:48)

We've got a yes. We've got a no.

Tessa Thompson (27:50)

Not personally. I mean, in the same way, like, children are manipulative. Yeah, they are, hugely. But they're also innocent, you know. Oh, there's this presumption of innocence. But children can be incredibly manipulative and maniacal and violent and, you know, act out on all sorts of unsavory impulses. And that's the way that I understood. Understood Hedda. I think children are capable of all sorts of things before they've been socialized, before they understand. And I think that socialization is necessary. It's necessary for us to say to children, you need to share with your friend. It's not okay to hit. It's not okay to. To act out or pretend to cry to get something that you want. And I think that in some ways, the way that we socialize, people also inhibit the best of us, you know, and that's sort of how I see her. So if she's manipulative, she is in the same way that a child might be.

Alison Stewart (28:54)

Okay, my last question is because of streaming, which is great often, because you can go back and you can rewatch a scene several times. What's a scene in the film that you would like people to pay special attention to or maybe to watch again?

Nia DaCosta (29:13)

Oh, that's a great question. I think the scene in the bedroom between Eileen and Hedda. There's a lot going on in that scene. Just in terms of. Interesting. You talk about this question of manipulative or not. I think a lot about when Hedda's being truthful. And I think there's so much truth in that scene for Hedda and for Eileen. But there's also lies in that. In that scene for both of them. And I think some of them are conscious and some of them are unconscious. And I think the work that Tessa and Nina do. Nina Haas, who plays Eileen doing that scene, is remarkable. So that would be a really fun scene for people to rewatch.

Alison Stewart (29:52)

How about you? For you, Tessa?

Tessa Thompson (29:53)

Oh, I like. I like that scene, too. I think that's a good one. Because I think something that you sort of see happen in that scene and something that I think happens to a lot of us oftentimes as humans, is the way that we miss each other and we miss opportunities for real connection when we're afraid to be really vulnerable. You know, we get just right there, and it's such a terrifying thing, but it really is the only way that we find real connection, not just to other people, but to ourselves. And it's. And, you know, they were right. They were almost right there. So I think that's such a tender thing to watch and to unpack the moments that we've maybe been guilty of that ourselves. We almost could have had that real moment of honesty with ourselves and with someone else to really be seen.

Alison Stewart (30:43)

I love it in the water, the way your face changes at the end. It's just it's so good.

Tessa Thompson (30:50)

Well, Nia Dacosta wrote the most beautiful piece of stage direction that I have ever read in my entire life that almost got tattooed on my brain. And the way that she writes the end of the movie is Hedda, caught between dark finality and dark possibility, can do nothing, nothing but break out into a wild wanting, wicked wild wanting and wicked smile. And I just thought this is how will I ever do it? But God, I'm so lucky I get to she did it.

Alison Stewart (31:26)

That was my conversation with actor Tessa Thompson and director Nia Dacosta. Hedda is now streaming on Amazon Prime. Thompson is nominated for a Golden Globe award and the award show will air live on CBS and will be streaming on Paramount. We'll have more on the Golden Globes next hour. We'll hear from director Park Chan Wook about his film no Other Choice which received a nod for motion picture and best non English language film.