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- [00:08]
A
This is all of it. I'm David Fuerst in for Alison Stewart. Thanks for joining us. Coming up on today's show, we spend an hour talking about three powerful art exhibits. We're going to speak with the curator of the poster house show Love and Fury, which highlights the graphics that emerged from New York's AIDS crisis. Indigenous artist Wendy Redstar joins us to talk about one blue bead, her show that centers the history of trade beads. Kwame Azure Gomez will talk about her joyous paintings that are on display at the Marianne Boesky Gallery. And New York magazine editor Julia Edelstein is here to talk about things every New Yorker should know. That's the plan. So let's get this started. 64 competitors, four regions, a lot of busted brackets. You know what that means. Yes. It's starch madness time. Forget about basketball. Every year, the folks at the Serious Eats website pit dozens of starchy foods against each other. And fans vote on Instagram choosing their favorites in a single elimination format. That yields one winner. It is a highly biased popularity contest that basically gives the writers at Serious Eats free reign to make as many puns as they can. In previous years, the competition has tackled sandwiches, potatoes, pasta shapes, mostly savory foods. This year, it's a big departure. The focus is on baked goods. We're talking eclairs, brownies, cakes, cookies. And you may be asking yourself, how can you possibly compare a cinnamon bun to a peanut butter cookie? We had that question, too. So here to explain is Daniel Gritzer, the editorial director of Serious Eats. Daniel, welcome back to all of it.
- [02:03]
B
Thank you, David, for having me back. I'm very excited to talk all things starch madness.
- [02:07]
A
So what made you pick baked goods this year?
- [02:11]
B
Well, we've been working our way through the starches. This is our sixth year of starch Madness. It started during the pandemic. We were trying to find ways to entertain ourselves when we can wind back the clock to what that time was like. We started this primarily Instagram based voting bracket inspired by an obscure sport involving a ball and a move that nobody cares about.
- [02:35]
A
Ah, yes, sure.
- [02:37]
B
Because everyone's really thinking about starches. And so, so we, so we launched starch venison. And like you said in your intro, we started with pasta. We were kind of centered in Italy, so it's pasta shapes. And then the next year we moved on to pasta sauces. And then we branched out, took it global. We pitted potatoes against each other. We did rice, we did sandwiches, which was a sort of roundabout way to get to Bread and I think a little bit more of a fun way. And baked goods have been on our list a long time as a possible starchy food category to tackle for anyone. If it's not obvious, it's the, the wheat would be the starching question here. And so we finally thought, okay, this is the time to try it. Let's, let's see how we, how we, how we do. And you know, obviously everyone eats savory food. Some people have true sweet tooths and some don't. And that was the question for us is, is this one going to be as engaging for, for the audience?
- [03:34]
A
Well, how was it for you? You know, was baked goods a refreshing change or did you regret the calorie intake some somewhere around the 27th cake you had to sample?
- [03:45]
B
You know, the good news is it's just, it's voting online. We do have recipes for all of these 64 entrants in the bracket, but it was more voting and less eating. Thank, thank God. That would have been rough. I personally don't have a big sweet tooth and so I was going into it thinking not going to be the bracket I'm the most excited about. And that ended up being not true. There's something about looking at pictures of beautiful cakes and cookies and pies. They're vibrant, they are very appealing to the eyes. And even for a non sweet tooth like me, I still found that I had strong allegiances to some. I wanted to see some things go far and I felt strongly about it. And I, and my, my sense is that our, our readers and our, our followers on Instagram had had a similar level of interest.
- [04:37]
A
Well, this all seems, sounds pretty silly and I guess it is pretty silly, but each contestant comes along with its own Serious Eats recipe. And really those recipes are a big part of this whole exercise. Right. So how do you choose the recipes to represent each item?
- [04:57]
B
That is the hardest part. I mean, part of it is there's a practical constraint which is what recipes do we have on Serious Eats? We are a food and cooking site that has been around for many years now and we have a very deep library of recipes. But still, when you're trying to put together a bracket of 64, that question comes up to see do we actually have the recipes to support this bracket in this case, we absolutely did. It wasn't hard. And so we look at things like, we'll look at data like what are the most searched for cookie recipes, cake recipes, baked goods recipes, and we'll get a sense of just from sort of that, that Google Google search interest. What are the most popular? And this is, this kind of most popular thing is in quotes because it's most popular among a primarily American audience. So it's not objectively the most popular in the whole world. But so we'll look at that and then we'll. We'll sort of see what we have. And in this case, we basically had everything that we. And it was pretty easy to put the bracket together. And actually this year we had another thing that worked out really well, which in prior years did was not so easy to make work, which is that we were actually able to have four regions of 16 each in true, you know, madness fashion. And they were thematic. So we had one region that was cookies and one region that was cakes, one that was pies, and then the last one that was sort of pastry, pastry case, patisserie kind of zone.
- [06:34]
A
I want to get these. I want to get more into those regions. But I also, if you would like to join our conversation, I would love to invite you to give us a call if you have a question about starch at this. If you want to shout out your favorite baked good or tell us a favorite recipe or maybe you want to trash talk a baked good, give us a call. 212-433-9692. That's 212-433, WNYC. You can also text us at that number. We are talking starch madness and the best 64 baked goods in the bracket here. And I wanted to ask you what biases get reflected in the voting. I can tell you right now, I have a major pie bias. So anytime I see a matchup in your bracket, I would have gone with the piece.
- [07:29]
B
One thing that was interesting here is because we were able to do the four regions with that thematic organization, Pies, basically, all the pies basically went up against each other in the initial rounds and they didn't even face off against one of the other regions until I'd have to look at the round counts. I'm not a sportsman, so I lose
- [07:48]
A
track of the deep in the competition.
- [07:51]
B
Yeah. Later in the competition, pies finally faced off against. Gosh, was it cookies or whichever the other region was the pies went up against in that, in that round. And so there was a, there was a big kind of winnowing down of the contenders before a cookie face to cake or a cake face to something
- [08:12]
A
or a cookie face to cake.
- [08:15]
B
Yeah, these are very serious matchups happening here, as you can tell.
- [08:20]
A
Okay. So the four regions, piece of cake we're talking cakes, pie in the sky. There's the pies, cookie monsters. And what's the, the last region?
- [08:32]
B
The last region is sticks. Sticky fingers.
- [08:36]
A
Oh, sticky fingers. Okay. What's that?
- [08:39]
B
That would be the, the pastry case. So it's a little bit of a catch all, but it has things like eclairs and cream puffs and sticky buns and cheese danishes and cinnamon rolls and hot cross buns. You know, we also put bread pudding in there. We were thinking the things you might see if you go into a cafe or a pastry shop and they'd have it in that glass case, there'd be cookies too, or, you know, fudging it a little. But that's, that was the idea there.
- [09:06]
A
How do you determine rankings and seeds within, within these brackets, were there certain items that you kind of thought in advance they're probably going to win, so they're going to be the one seed?
- [09:17]
B
Yeah, it was a lot of. It wasn't the most scientific process. Certainly not as data driven as maybe the basketball seatings.
- [09:25]
A
Sure happen. But it, although they're hugely disputed as well.
- [09:29]
B
Yeah. Maybe I shouldn't give them so much credit. Yeah. So a lot of it was just gut feelings of like you're looking at a list of 16 cookies and you're sort of saying. And looking at data also which, going back to that, you know, which are the most searched for cookies on, on Google and then just sort of saying, well, you know, well, chocolate chip cookies has to be the number one seed. Right. Like what, what would be the number two seed in cookies? And what do we get? Oatmeal raisin. I, I maybe put my finger on the scale there actually, because I'm a big oatmeal raisin cookie fan and I was convinced they were going to go far. They didn't go nearly as far as I thought, which was a bummer. Yeah. So it's a lot of just that gut feeling of like, what are the more popular baked goods from the perspective of a mostly American audience? Not 100%, but that's the bulk of it.
- [10:24]
A
If you'd like to share a baked goods recipe. That phone number again. 212-433-9692. And I have to ask, why did you decide to end the competition? Because it's over before the actual NCAA final.
- [10:42]
B
Wow. You just asked me a question I don't know the answer to.
- [10:46]
A
We're asking the hard questions today.
- [10:48]
B
As you can see, I'm much more in the food world, in the sports world.
- [10:54]
A
Oh, you're like, wait, it's not over.
- [10:56]
B
Yeah. Is that done? Actually, you know, this, we, the timing is sort of just, we try to do it I think the last two weeks of March, basically. I did also have the thought it's good timing that it, we ended at the, at the end of March also because passovers just started and for anyone listening, the bracket ended before for those who were avoiding leavened baked goods before that started. So.
- [11:27]
A
Right. All these books, all these goods that we're talking about extensively right now.
- [11:31]
B
Yeah.
- [11:31]
A
Thank you very much.
- [11:33]
B
May not be wanting to think about them right now, but.
- [11:36]
A
All right, well, let's, let's get to it. Let's get to the big reveal since this competition is closed.
- [11:42]
B
Who won? Can you guess?
- [11:47]
A
Well, I have peaked.
- [11:52]
B
Did the result surprise you?
- [11:54]
A
No. We're talking the chocolate chip cookie.
- [11:56]
B
Chocolate chip cookies won. Yeah. That was, it was the number one seed of the cookie region, as I, as I mentioned. And we knew from the beginning, as we knew when we did Potato Starch Madness, that french fries would be the ones to beat. Chocolate chip cookie was the bake good to be and nobody beat it. And frankly, it wasn't even close. There were, there were some close matchups. Snickerdoodles and peanut butter cookies, I think had a, had a face off. That was only. There was a six vote difference. When the voting ended on that round. We, that was a real drama. Yeah. What's the sports lingo like a buzzer.
- [12:34]
A
A buzzer. Beer.
- [12:35]
B
Yeah. So. But anything that faced chocolate chip cookies went, went down hard, which reinforces that this is a popularity contest and I, I love chocolate chip cookies. They wouldn't, I didn't want to see them win. I wanted to see something else win, something surprising. But it's, it's, it fits that. That was, that was going to be the one. I think when you stop and think about how this works and everyone's voting and they see a beautiful chocolate chip and it is the chocolate chip cook recipe. Chocolate chip cookie recipe we have is really stellar. It's Stella Parks. I don't know if you know Stella Parks, the baker.
- [13:13]
A
I want to get into that recipe. We're speaking with Daniel Gritzer, the editorial director of Serious Eats, talking about their fun starch madness challenge. And yeah, tell us about the recipe for those winning cookies because, you know, first of all, you can find the recipes for all 64 items in the bracket on your website. You can just search for Serious eats starch madness 2026. But yeah, tell us about that recipe. What Makes this one special.
- [13:43]
B
Oh, gosh, let's see. There's a few things. I have to go back and actually take a closer look at Stella's recipe she has.
- [13:52]
A
Because really, what is the key to making a great chocolate chip cookie?
- [13:57]
B
There are a few. You know, one thing that's, that's often discussed is the importance of resting the dough. And that is something that really, before you bake it, that can really make a big difference, a huge difference in how the cookies bake. And resting is generally a very good thing. It gives chance, it gives time for the flour to hydrate in the, in the dough, and it changes how the cookies bake. You know, one thing that Stella does, it's really nice in her recipe, it's just a small, easy move, is she puts a nice big chunk of chocolate on top of each cookie after it's been portioned. And so when it bakes and the cookie spreads, you get, you get this really just gooey blob of melted chocolate right in the center or near the center. You know, things kind of, you know, move around in the oven when it's, when it's baking. So that's a, that's a key step. Her, her recipe is. It's not, it's not anything particular. There's no, like, shocking step. That's, that's, that is unheard of. It's just a really solid, beautifully devised chocolate chip cookie recipe that hits. I'm trying to think if she was trying to go a little bit for that. No, I think it's not. She has another recipe for the levain style chocolate chip cookies. This is not the one. I don't want to, I don't want to mix my.
- [15:26]
A
And you can check out that recipe. The easiest way to find it is it just the way I mentioned. Serious eats starch madness 2026. Just do a search and you'll quickly find that on your website.
- [15:37]
B
Yeah, yeah. And also another thing I'm just remembering is instead of using actual chocolate chips, she chops the chocolate, which is, you know, another thing that probably listeners have seen before. But it makes a big difference because first, you generally can get a better quality chocolate that way versus using chips. And you get a more irregular distribution of chocolate sizes, which ends up being really nice in the finished cookie because you have these little tiny flecks scattered throughout that are making every bite chocolatey. But then you get those bigger payoffs of the gooey pockets plus that one, you know, sort of mother pocket of chocolate that I was mentioning.
- [16:19]
A
I'm sold Motherload. I'm sold.
- [16:21]
B
It's a great recipe.
- [16:22]
A
We're going to take one of your calls right now if you want to join this conversation. If you want to shout out your favorite baked good or perhaps share a recipe, give us a call. 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC. And let's hear from Jennifer in South Orange, New Jersey. Welcome.
- [16:44]
C
Thank you.
- [16:45]
D
So I've been trying to master the chocolate chip cookie for quite a while now. And every batch I was making would come out really cakey and just in my opinion, kind of inedible because I have very high cookie standards. And then I got the book that Vaughn from the New York Times wrote called Cookies, and there's a giant crinkle chocolate chip cookie there. And the magic is that about halfway through baking, you take the pan and you bang it on the counter multiple times and it flattens everything out. And then you do it every three minutes until your cookies are baked.
- [17:25]
A
That's, that's the neighbor's favorite cooking tip right there, right?
- [17:29]
E
Exactly.
- [17:29]
D
Well, that's why, you know, when you live in New Jersey, you don't have to worry too much. But I have, I have mastered the chocolate chip cookie now and it's feels like a major accomplishment in my life. So I'm going to move on to oatmeal after this. But yeah, I'm proud to share that on wnyc.
- [17:50]
A
Jennifer, we thank you for that and congratulate you on that accomplishment. And what about that technique, banging the pan?
- [18:00]
B
It's a cool trick when the cookies are baking and they're kind of in that, some somewhat of a molten state. You do have this, this ability to influence their, how the, how the, the cookie dough distributes. And so banging is essentially just using, you know, a hefty amount of force to, to, you know, as, as Jennifer said to, to level them out, to flatten them, to help them spread. I'm also curious hearing that every three minutes that is a lot of opening and closing the oven door. And that, that must have some effect. And it's not necessarily a negative one. Sounds like, sounds like it's not a negative one where you're, you're kind of dropping the oven temperature. Interesting, you know, over and over for the last sort of stretch of the, of the bake. And I wonder if that adds to the gooey result because you're sort of, you're easing off the high heat.
- [18:59]
A
Well, let's take another call. This is, I believe, Another cookie related call, James in Mountain Lakes, New Jersey. Welcome.
- [19:07]
F
Oh thanks. I was just going to say I've been making chocolate chip cookies for a very, very long time, since I was a kid and I'm not that young right now. And I've always found, I always use the tollhouse recipe. I always find that the butter needs to be not too soft and it can't be over beaten. I beat it by hand and then you get the perfect consistency where it's kind of like thicker and not like nobody likes a flat crispy cookie. People like them a little thicker and that gives you like the perfect consistency.
- [19:36]
A
Well James, that's a great comment. Thanks for sharing and I'll ask you that question. Daniel, Some people love a nice crispy thin cookie. Others like the soft approach. What are the favorites?
- [19:49]
B
This is the great challenge, especially with something like a chocolate chip cookie. I think there's so many different ideas of what the perfect chocolate chip cookie is. I see some that are so thick and cakey and that does not appeal to me. But that is definitely a style that some people go for. I go for the kind of gooey in the center, crispy around the edge, a little bit half baked, under baked. That's my personal sweet spot. Especially because as they cool, they stay the butter solidifies and the sugar cools and so the cookie sets up. And so pulling cookie chocolate chip cookies early for me is, is tends to be what I like. But yeah, I mean some people like really thin, that sort of shatteringly crisp sort of style chocolate chip cookie. Some people like the, yeah that, that there's, there's, there's a, there's a cookie for, for every taste I guess and you know even within one specific style like chocolate chip which is the fun, you know we have on series eats multiple chocolate chip cookie recipes for exactly that reason.
- [20:54]
A
For exactly that reason. Yeah.
- [20:56]
B
You can't just make one and say this is the one because it's not going to be the one for everyone.
- [21:00]
A
We are talking baked goods with Daniel Gritzer with Serious Eats and take another, another few of your calls. Marissa in Montclair, New Jersey. Welcome to all of it. You also wanted to talk about some cookies.
- [21:14]
D
I do want to talk about cookies. I just came out with an entire cookbook called the Secret Life of Chocolate Chip Cookies. It's all chocolate chip cookie recipes. So I have a lot of thoughts and opinions about what makes a perfect chocolate chip cookie. I also am very agnostic on the topic.
- [21:31]
A
Although my you're welcoming of many different styles.
- [21:35]
D
Everyone should Be happy. It's a chocolate chip cookie after all.
- [21:38]
A
Boy. Now I have to ask you, the book is called the Secret Life of Chocolate Chip Cookies. How many chocolate chocolate chip cookie recipes are in there?
- [21:48]
D
There? 60 chocolate chip cookies. Now they're not all cookie recipes. They're the majority of them as cookie recipes. And then I also have recipes that utilize the chocolate chip as made famous by Ruth Wakefield in Massachusetts.
- [22:03]
A
Wow.
- [22:04]
D
It's all, it's all I've been making. It was one of the best. You know, I've been writing recipes for a long, long time and this just became like kind of my dream job to sit there and reiterate cookie after cookie with different flavors from strawberry chocolate chip to peanut butter butterscotch chocolate chip to super thin brownie chocolate chip cookies to, you know, my favorite. I don't have a favorite. Did I say I had a. I don't have a favorite, of course, but I'm very partial to the, the crunchooey, which was a word I had to sneak by my editor who was like,
- [22:41]
E
that's not a real word.
- [22:42]
D
And I was like, of course, crunch. Chewy's a real word.
- [22:45]
A
Well, it is now, so thank you for introducing us to that word. And Marissa, thanks for these 60 new chocolate chip cookie recipes courtesy of your book. Let's hear from Susan in New Jersey, who I think maybe we're moving on from cookies here. Welcome, Susan.
- [23:06]
C
Thank you. Yeah, my mother had a very great cherry cobbler recipe that's very quick and easy to make. And you can always have the ingredients on hand in the house. And it combines savory and sweet. And so you get one of those old corning baking dish, square baking dish, casserole dishes, get in the oven 325, put a stick of butter in there. In the meantime, in a bowl, you take one cup of sugar, one cup of milk and one cup of self rising flour. And then you just gently mix them. It'll be a liquidy batter, just don't overdo it. And then when the butter is melted, you take the casserole dish out and then you pour the batter into the middle of the casserole dish. It will foam up on the sides and don't stir it. Then you get a can of cherry cobbler, I mean a can of cherry pie filling and you just dollop the spoonfuls of cherry pie filling all across it. Don't stir. Put it back into the oven about 325 for about 45 minutes and oh my gosh, it comes out buttery. Salty crust that's golden brown. And then you have the tart cherries in between and it's just wonderful. You serve it warm and everybody will love you.
- [24:11]
A
I love it already. I'm in. Thank you for sharing, Susan. And what about the cherry cobbler? How did that do in the competition?
- [24:19]
B
You know, funny you should ask. We did not have a cobbler in the bracket. Yeah, cobblers. Chris, the, what are the, what's the term? Pan dowdy Is that we did not include those partly just because we, we, we had so many great recipes across the, the regions of cakes and cookies and pies that they didn't quite fit. Partly because, I mean, yeah, some cobblers really are kind of batter heavy like that. And then there's there, there's the other style where it's more of, there's like sort of a, a topping or a biscuity topping or a streuseli topping. And we, we didn't do that either. But I'm a huge personal fan of, of cobblers. Yeah, maybe, maybe that's a future starch madness. I don't know.
- [25:13]
A
A future starch madness. Maybe that'll be a category unto itself. Let's try to get to another text and call here. A texter has a favor. That's rugala with nuts and raisins. No chocolate, no raspberry, just dry, crunchy, regular raisins, nuts and a hint of cinnamon. How's that sound?
- [25:33]
B
Love it. I love it. Similarly for me with babka, I'm much more interested in a cinnamon babka than a chocolate babka. It's just, I don't know, it more balanced a lot of times the chocolate ones, and this is true with the rugula also, they're just too sweet for me. Not that they have to be. You could use a darker chocolate, but they tend to be. So I'm all for that raisin. And frankly, on that Note, thinking of 60 something chocolate chip cookie recipes and variants in that cookbook, my favorite chocolate chip cookie variant by far is if you add a bunch of oats and swap the chocolate chips with raisins, which some might call an oatmeal raisin cookie. But that's just, that's just me making my feelings known.
- [26:20]
A
And I will read this text that we've just gotten. Daniel, to you. Funny topic during Passover. Matzo brie recipes, anyone?
- [26:31]
B
Oh, matzo brie. You know what? I have a, it's a really good question if we have a matzo braai recipe on serious eats, I have matzo pancakes recipes. And also we just published a recipe for like a matzah icebox cake that anyone who's looking for something sweet for Passover might want to go to the site and check that out. But yeah, matzah does wonderful things in sweet preparations. I grew up, my bubby always made matzo pancakes and sprinkled with sugar. It was a really, really wonderful memory of mine. Oh, wow.
- [27:11]
A
Well, thank you for sharing that and let's take one more call. This is Lisa in Eatontown, New Jersey. Welcome.
- [27:19]
E
Hi.
- [27:20]
A
Do you have a recipe you want to share?
- [27:23]
C
I do.
- [27:23]
E
Well, I can't take credit for it because it was my mother's. So years ago, I want to say maybe 30 years ago, Neiman Marcus sent out one of their catalogs before the holidays and they had a chocolate chip cookie recipe in it. And it was nearly identical to the Toll House Recip and my mother got from the Neiman Marcus recipe. It was, you add a half a cup of toffee chips and a cup of Rice Krispies. And so, I mean, I have to even, I can tell you that even the batter is delicious. And I'm like, I'm not like a cookie batter ice cream person, but I eat a lot of the batter. And they are decadent, they're buttery. And you, when you bite into them and they're crispy, they're always, they can't not be crispy because they have the Rice Krispies. They're amazing. And we make them every year. Honestly, we just, we're big Christmas cookie people. And that is like we make two Christmas cookies now because we make so many of the chocolate chip cookies for
- [28:32]
A
people and you're eating so much of the batter. I mean, you kind of. Thank you for your batter confessions today, Lisa. And how does that recipe sound?
- [28:41]
B
Oh, it sounds great. And it does get me thinking that one of the, I've been, I've been making light fun of chocolate chip cookies here. But one of the beautiful things about the chocolate chip cookie is it really does lend itself to variation. And it reminds me very recently at Serious Eats did a taste test of store bought chocolate chip cookie, you know, mixes and doughs and that kind of thing. And the winner, which, oh, gosh, off the top of my head, I don't want to name the store and get it wrong. It's on Serious Eats, the chocolate chip cookie taste test results. But I do remember the cookie. I just don't remember the brand, the maker. It was actually kind of like a kitchen sink chocolate chip cookie. And it had enough extra things in it that many people could look at it and say, I'm sorry, that is not a chocolate chip cookie anymore. It had pretzel pieces, which the Rice Krispies kind of remind me of, adding that crunch. It had a lot of different things in it, but eating it, it really did read as a chocolate chip cookie. It felt very chocolate chip cookie in flavor and spirit. It just had these extra bits that added salt and crunch. And so I do. You know, the chocolate chip cookie is just a wonderful. Maybe it's not quite right to call it a blank canvas, but it's very welcoming of add ins and I think often they become even better cookies.
- [30:00]
A
Welcoming of add ins. I like the way you put that. And I'll finish with this question that we just got in a text here. Can I have chocolate chip cookies for lunch? How many do I need to eat for a proper serving?
- [30:15]
B
You shouldn't ask me this because I'm often known as the human garbage can.
- [30:19]
A
Okay.
- [30:20]
B
Clearly the answer is yes. You know, I'm not your doctor. And at least 8 to 12 cookies, I think large ones.
- [30:31]
A
Wow. I'm not going to back that up. Have you decided on a plan for next year yet? Next year's Starch Madness. And has anyone on staff complained about the health impacts of working their way through the baked goods bracket this year?
- [30:45]
B
Yeah, it's the. It's the cost of doing business. We were thinking about it. So there are some starches we haven't touched yet. Beans is one. Although I worry, as much as I love beans passionately, that visually it's not the most striking category for, you know, social media.
- [31:04]
A
Oh, the images are gorgeous this year.
- [31:07]
B
Yeah, the images this year are really great. I was thinking actually corn, because, you know, it's easy to think of corn as just sweet corn on the cob, but when you, when you're looking at, like, the field corn products like grits and polenta and cornmeal, there's a lot there.
- [31:22]
A
All right, we'll have to see and what happens next year, how this all unfolds. We've been speaking with Daniel Gritzer, the editorial director for Serious Eats. And for more about all of the March Madness. Excuse me, Starch Madness, just search for Serious eats Starch Madness 2020, 2026, to check out all the winners and all the recipes. Daniel, thanks for joining us.
- [31:43]
B
Thank you so much.
- [31:45]
G
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H
at LifeLock, we know you're tired of numbers, but here's a big one you need to hear Billions. That's the amount of money and refunds the IRS has flagged for possible identity fraud. Now here's another big number. 100 million. That's how many data points LifeLock monitors every second. If your identity is stolen, we'll fix it. Guaranteed. One last big number. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit lifelock.com specialoffer for the threats you can't control, terms apply.