Sterlin Harjo on 'Reservation Dogs'

Summary

Podcast Summary: All Of It – Sterlin Harjo on 'Reservation Dogs'

Host: Alison Stewart (WNYC)
Guest: Sterlin Harjo (Executive Producer, Director & Co-Writer, Reservation Dogs)
Date: September 13, 2024

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Overview:

This episode centers on Sterlin Harjo, showrunner of Reservation Dogs, as the acclaimed show wraps its groundbreaking run. Harjo discusses the show's conclusion, its deep Oklahoma roots, Indigenous representation, casting choices, and how the series thoughtfully addresses community, storytelling, and historical trauma—all with Harjo's signature subtlety and authenticity.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Emotional Impact of Ending the Series

• Bittersweet Farewell (03:52)
  • Harjo expresses mixed feelings about closing the show: “Yeah, I mean, it's a mixed bag of being happy about it, but also, you know, it's emotional… A lot of love went into this and… my life changed, a lot of people’s lives changed.” (03:52, Sterlin Harjo)
  • He reflects on seeing the experience “in the rearview mirror now,” admitting it's a “strange” and emotional process.

2. Authenticity and the Importance of Setting

• Oklahoma as a Character (04:40)
  • Harjo insists the landscape is inseparable from the show: “It is such a character in the show... Everything that you see, all of it. Nothing is exaggerated or stretched. It's literally how life is.”
  • The setting is not just a backdrop, but a genuine representation of rural Native life that resonates both with insiders and those newly discovering the culture.

3. Subtlety Over Exposition

• Cultural Nuance Without Explanation (05:41 – 06:48)
  • The show’s approach is immersive, allowing non-Native audiences to learn customs organically: “I'm sort of a sucker for subtlety... It's always a balance of not being too subtle, but not hitting people over the head with a hammer... That’s my style.” (05:50, Sterlin Harjo)
  • Highlight: Characters use Native language conversationally with no subtitles or explanation; viewers learn meaning contextually.
  • Example: The word ‘mado’ (thank you) is absorbed through repeated use.

4. Storytelling Lineage

• Family Influence on Narrative Style (06:48 – 09:05)
  • Harjo describes growing up around master storytellers—both Native and non-Native—to explain his ability to craft rich, layered stories.
  • Quotes tales of folklore, myth, and family history as sources: “[My grandma] would tell stories and paint these pictures in this way. And I owe a lot to both sides of my family... The common denominator is rural Oklahoma.”
  • Emphasized the importance of surrealism and everyday mythologies in Native life: “Within that, there's a surrealism... that's also a part of it.”

5. Casting Process and Representation

• Finding the Right Actors (and Changing the Script) (09:05 – 10:50)

  • Harjo sought actors who were authentic to their characters but could also surprise him.
  • Example: Paulina Alexis was originally auditioned for Elora but ultimately inspired Harjo to reimagine Willie Jack as a female, saying, “I just re-envisioned what if she plays Willie Jack... and, you know, obviously, it paid off.”
  • Cheese’s character, too, was tailored to Lane Factor after his unique audition.

• Authenticity Resonating with Viewers

  • Shared an anecdote about a community member resembling Willie Jack, highlighting the impact of true-to-life representation: “She literally started, you know, every now and then, like, you know, somebody'd buy her a drink or something. She's like, that's me. It's me.” (10:50, Sterlin Harjo)

6. Mentorship, Spirits, and Community

• Spiritual Realism and Guidance (13:29–15:09)
  • Discussion of how spirits and supernatural elements function naturally in the storyline and Native communities, blurring the lines between reality and the mythic.
  • On Bear’s journey: “I think that Bear realizes that there was something in his life that was missing... and that spirit was there to sort of fill that and also to guide him in weird ways... In Native communities, that's what I love, is that there's not a lot of division between sort of the mythological and the surreal and reality. It's very matter of fact.”

7. Addressing Historical Trauma with Authenticity

• Incorporating Difficult Histories (15:09–17:10)
  • Stories of colonization, the Indian Child Welfare Act, boarding schools are woven in not as lessons, but as lived reality. "I have to do something with [this platform]... my favorite way to do that is through just storytelling."
  • Harjo on the “Dear Lady” episode: “I didn’t approach... thinking like, oh, I'm going to teach people. That was sort of a byproduct of it. I mean, I know about this stuff, my grandparents were there... So, it’s not something that I’m like, oh, I’m gonna teach them that one. Because it was just part of my life.”
  • Noted that community—its breaking and rebuilding—is a central theme.

8. The Power (and Limits) of Personal Story

• Autobiographical Elements and Series Conclusion (17:33–18:23)
  • Reflected on the personal nature of key storylines, especially the passing of his grandmother: “That, you know, again, that is my life. Like, that was my grandma. That's exactly what happened when my grandma passed down to when Big brings the giant squash... When a story is that personal, it's hard to go wrong... and also hard to keep it going forever... at a certain point, it ends.”

9. Creative Integrity and Non-Negotiables

• Commitment to Place and Detail (18:43–20:24)
  • Harjo stood firm on filming in Oklahoma, “I told them, my agents and everyone, I said that I wouldn’t make the show. And this is after it was greenlit. And I was like, well, I won’t make the show if we shoot anywhere else... the land is the most important thing in a story about us.”
  • The network (FX) ultimately supported the decision.
  • Even small details—like style choices (“Paulina wearing slides... gotta have sides and socks... buy some basketball shorts”)—were defended as essential for authenticity.

10. The Finale: Endings and Legacy

• Reflections on the Series Finale (20:24–21:05)
  • Harjo on the show’s conclusion: “I think that our finale is the perfect finale. I think that it ends in the way that the show should end. It ends in humor, and it ends in heartbreak, but it ends in hope, and it ends with everyone being there.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “It's a mixed bag... my life changed, a lot of people’s lives changed.” (03:52, Sterlin Harjo)
• “Oklahoma... is such a character in the show … Nothing is exaggerated or stretched. It's literally how life is.” (04:40)
• “I'm sort of a sucker for subtlety. Sometimes I feel like I go too subtle... But, you know, that's my style of storytelling.” (05:50)
• “We have a platform... my favorite way... is through just storytelling. I didn’t approach [episodes] thinking, ‘I’m going to teach people.’ That was a byproduct.” (15:31, Sterlin Harjo)
• “If I’m telling the story of their descendants, it needs to be in the place where they ended up at the end of the Trail of Tears.” (19:00, Sterlin Harjo)
• “It’s not a crime show. It’s not X-Files... it is my life, so at a certain point, it ends.” (17:51, Sterlin Harjo)

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Highlighted Segments and Timestamps

• [03:52] Sterlin Harjo on the emotional complexity of ending the series
• [04:40] On Oklahoma as an essential character in Reservation Dogs
• [05:50] Harjo’s narrative style and preference for subtlety
• [06:48] – [09:05] Storytelling heritage and family influences
• [09:23] Casting the central characters and adapting scripts for actors’ strengths
• [10:50] The impact of authentic representation on Native communities
• [13:29] Spiritual realism and blending myth with daily life
• [15:31] Incorporating and contextualizing historical trauma
• [17:33] Real-life inspirations for major episodes
• [18:43] Non-negotiables in production—why filming in Oklahoma mattered
• [20:24] The “perfect” finale: humor, heartbreak, hope, and presence

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Tone and Takeaways

Throughout the conversation, Harjo’s approach is understated yet deeply intentional. He avoids didacticism, preferring to invite viewers into a fully realized world that’s as humorous as it is heart-wrenching, as ordinary as it is mythic. By centering land, lived experience, and community, Reservation Dogs not only entertains—it transforms understanding of Indigenous stories on television.

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For more from culture makers like Sterlin Harjo, listen to ALL OF IT on WNYC.

Transcript

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[Sterlin Harjo]

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[Sterlin Harjo]

Listener support WNYC Studios.

[Alison Stewart]

This is all of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. Happy Friday everyone. And not just any Friday, but the Friday before the Emmys, where the actors and writers and creators behind the year's best television are recognized for their talent and artistry. And we here at all of it.

[Interviewer]

We love television as much as you do.

[Alison Stewart]

And that's why we've had a bunch of conversations with some of this year's nominees. I talked with Molly Ringwald about her role as a friend of Truman Capote in the series feud, Capote vs. The Swans, which is being recognized for its period costumes, hairstyling and makeup, as well as its casting, directing and theme music. I also spoke with Mike Birbiglia about his comedy show, which he was performing on Broadway at the time, called the Old man in the Pool, and he's nominated for writing the special. We'll hear from the best Lead Actress nominee, Carrie Coon about the series the Gilded Age, which is also nominated in five other categories including Outstanding Drama Series. Plus, we'll hear from director Shawn Levy later in the show about his adaptation of the Pulitzer Prize winning novel all the Light We Cannot See, which was nominated for its visual effects, sound design, original score and cinematography. That's in the future. Now let's get things started with Sterlin Harjo. Reservation Dogs was the first ever show where every series regular, every writer and every director is indigenous. The series, which concluded last September, was nominated for outstanding comedy series and one of its lead actors, Defaro Wunatai, is up for best lead actor in a comedy series. At first blush, the show seemed like a coming of age story featuring four teenagers on a mission to get out of California. They steal and scheme and then wrestle with the morality of ripping off members of their own community. But it turned out to be much more. The themes of intergenerational understanding, the impact of financial instability, the push and pull of tradition, and how sometimes people are just straight up weird are told in a humorous and heart wrenching way against the backdrop of a reservation in Oklahoma. Executive producer, director and co writer Sterling Harjo joined me on the show to talk about the conclusion of the series. I started by asking how he felt to bring Reservation Dogs to a close.

[Sterlin Harjo]

Yeah, I mean, it's a mixed bag of, of being happy about it, but also, you know, it's emotional and, you know, there's a lot of love that went into this and a lot of things changed in the last three years. My life changed, a lot of people's lives changed. And so to go through that, you know, and to see it sort of in the rearview mirror now, all of a sudden, it's strange. You know, it's, it's. It can be emotional.

[Interviewer]

You've said that you wanted this show to be particularly of Oklahoma and distinctly native to Oklahoma. When you look back on it, how did that landscape and that setting with it and your relationship with that setting wind up shaping the show's arc?

[Sterlin Harjo]

I mean, it's everything as far as, I mean, as far as, like Oklahoma goes, it's, it is such a character in the show and culturally, everything that you see is very true, you know, down to the finale. It's everything that you see, all of it. Nothing is exaggerated or stretched. It's literally how life is. You know, I was talking to people last night, friends of mine I haven't seen in a few years, and they were talking, they're native and they were talking about when it came out. They were from the town that we shoot in and they were talking about when it came out, how, I don't know, like, they respected it just because it was so normal. Like it's our life and just the rest of the world didn't know what our lives were like. And that was fascinating to People, I think, and brought a lot of people from the outside in because they were so interested in the culture and the everyday life of native people in rural Oklahoma. So.

[Interviewer]

And it just, it was organic to the story. It wasn't like you put a big red arrow going, look at this now. Understand this thing that's happening.

[Sterlin Harjo]

Right, Right. You know, like, I. I'm sort of a sucker for subtlety, and sometimes I feel like I go too subtle. But, you know, it's always a balance of like not being too subtle, but not hitting people over the head with a hammer and. Yeah, but, you know, that's sort of my style of storytelling, I guess.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. I think a really good example, at least for me, with the way I took it in, was realizing that people were saying thank you. The words.

[Sterlin Harjo]

Right.

[Interviewer]

And I don't want to try to put it's mado.

[Sterlin Harjo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer]

And there's no explanation. You just. But you realize the way people are interacting. Oh, they're saying thank you. And you. And you become accustomed to it and understand it totally.

[Sterlin Harjo]

Just like you would if you were like visiting a culture. Right. Or another place where they spoke other languages. You just sort of become accustomed to that word and learn it organically, you know. And that's really the experience that I wanted to create with the show.

[Interviewer]

I think you told Terry Gross last year, you grew up surrounded by the best storytellers. How did some of that storytelling, how did growing up around that and those people help you create this show and create the show you wanted?

[Sterlin Harjo]

Yeah. So, you know, my. My grandma on my dad's side was not native. She married a Seminole man, a full blooded Seminole man. And then on the other side, my grandma was full blood native and my grandpa was Italian. And he passed when I was five. And my. On my grandma's side, and then my native grandpa on the other side passed when my dad was five. So I grew up with these two sort of matriarch, one non native, one native. And then, you know, on the native side, we have a very large family, uncles and aunts and everything. And there was always people sitting around telling stories. I mean, like, you know, and some of it is magical and some of. Some of it is folklore and some of it is mythological. And I just absorbed all of it as a kid. You know, like in the kitchen, they're sitting around laughing and telling stories, and I would just absorb it. And then on the other hand, my grandmom on the other side, my non native grandma was like one of these really country poor, rural, as it Gets. All you had to do was tell stories, you know, and that's what she was. And she was so great at telling stories, and she could remember everything, every detail, and she would tell stories and paint these pictures in this way. And I. And I owe a lot to both sides of my family, and. And I. So I do think that the common denominator is rural Oklahoma. You know, it's just a place where, you know, the natural world is most prevalent. And within that, there's a surrealism, I think, and mythology that is also a part of it. And so I think that, yeah, it's about, you know, like, I just was surrounded by stories, and I. And I absorbed them. I just. I was always, like, having them repeat stories that I'd heard 100 times. And then the same thing with movies. I would repeat movies and watch movies over and over and over with my dad.

[Interviewer]

So, yeah, I want to go back to the casting process. If you can take it back in your mind, you know, you want these four kids. You had to get these four kids, right. Cheese Bear, Laura and Willie Jack. What were you looking for in actors, you and your team?

[Sterlin Harjo]

I was looking for actors that were, like, the characters that I had written, but that would also surprise me. And that's what I got. You know, I mean, like Paulina, who plays Willie Jack, that role was supposed to be a boy, and she was auditioning for Laura, and she was so great, but I didn't quite think Elora, but she was so great. And then I just re envisioned what if she plays Willy Jack. And Taika and I both talked about this, and she did, and we. I rewrote everything to kind of tailored to her as a female Willy Jack. And it, you know, obviously paid off. You know, same thing with Cheese. Cheese was not exactly what I envisioned, but his personality was so special and unique and. And sensitive and caring and really great that I just knew that that would be a great way to have Cheese's character be. And so I just tailored it to him after I met him.

[Interviewer]

Willy Jack, is this played by you? Said Polina, Alexis, and my friend Jada. I texted her last night. She's Wampanoag. And she texted me back. She loves the show. And she texted me back, I love the character Willie Jack. She is my person. She is honestly the first person I saw on TV that really, truly saw myself in. And everyone says she is me.

[Sterlin Harjo]

Oh, that's so great. Cause last night I was telling you. I was telling you I was with some friends from the community where I shot and there was. There was one girl there that was really making me laugh last night, and she was saying that she had a hat on backwards. And she was, like, telling me. She said, you know, when that show came out, I didn't know what people were talking about at first because I hadn't watched it. And she worked at, like, a gas station, and she said that everyone would ask her if she was that girl. And she was like, what are you talking about? And they thought that she was Willy Jack. So she literally started, you know, every now and then, like, you know, somebody buy her a drink or something. She's like, that's me. It's me.

[Interviewer]

I want to play a clip of Willie Jack. We really see her developing a mentorship over the season with old man Fixico, who wants to pass along knowledge of traditional medicine. He passes away. She's having all kinds of feelings. So this clip is Willy Jack is visiting her aunt in prison, who is also the mother of their friend Daniel, who passes away. We learned that in the first season. We'll hear Hookti talking about a spirit named Smiley, and we'll let this unfold, and we can talk about it on the other side. And the character development. This is from Reservation Dogs.

[Actor Voice 1]

This feels like I didn't get to spend enough time with him, like. Like he left before I got to learn anything from him, and we spent a lot of time together. Say something important.

[Actor Voice 2]

Thanks, Smiley.

[Actor Voice 1]

You talking that spirit?

[Actor Voice 2]

Yeah, she's always just glaring at me. I want her new snag. There's this old cowboy always going on about his mushroom trips and dropping acid in the desert. Oh, my boots. Sonic waves, transcendence. All that bull.

[Actor Voice 1]

I think I'm metal.

[Actor Voice 2]

Listen, I know it feels like Fixico's gone. In a way, he is, but he's also not gone at the same time.

[Interviewer]

So many times there are visitations from spirits, from others. One of the characters Bear has, from the beginning of show to the end of the show, has a spirit who comes to him, who is at times wise, also kind of wacky as well. What does Bear specifically come to understand about the value of these visits and these visitations?

[Sterlin Harjo]

I think that Bear realizes that there was something in his life that was missing, whether that's his dad or whatever, his friend Daniel, that had passed, and that spirit was there to sort of fill that and to also guide him in weird ways. And I think he misses it. You know, I think he. He knows the value that after he. After he tells Spirit to go away earlier in the season, I think he knows, you know, he has to kind of go it alone and he starts to value the lessons that William Knifeman gave him. And. But also he comes of age. I mean, that's the thing about a coming of age story is you come of age at some point, you know, like. And I think that we see him do that. And with that, he also knows that he has to tell William Knifeman goodbye. And. And yeah, I think it's a really cool. And it's like, did he create it? I don't know. Was it in his head? I don't know. But it helped him regardless. And I think that that's what. In Native communities, that's what I love, is that there's not a lot of division between sort of the mythological and the. And the surreal and reality. It's very matter of fact. And, you know, if Taika and I actually in the beginning talked a lot about, like, I, you know, that's what I wanted to capture. I wanted it all to be the same, not. Not separated, not like, oh, this is story time, or we tell a story about this, you know, mythological being. No, it was just. It's all a part of our life, everyday stories. And that's what I mean, because that's how it is in our communities. And that's what I wanted to show, and that's part of it.

[Interviewer]

And throughout the series, especially this season, we get some depictions of the deleterious effects of colonization, of the Indian Child Welfare act, of the brutality of the missionary boarding schools. How are you thinking about introducing those historical wrongs into this series?

[Sterlin Harjo]

I don't know. I mean, it's hard to say. If I thought about it. I can't remember if I thought about it as much as. I mean, we have a platform and we had a lot of fans, and I have to do something with that. I have to do it in my way. And my favorite way to do that is through just storytelling. And I. Because I didn't approach the Dear lady episode thinking like, oh, I'm going to teach people. That was sort of a byproduct of it. You know, I was really kind of blown away when all the messages were like, thank you for showing us this side of history that I didn't know about, you know, or whatever. I didn't. I didn't. I mean, I know about this stuff. My grandparents were there, my mom was there. You know, like, I. I didn't. So it's not something that I'm like, oh, I'm gonna teach them that one. Because it was Just part of my life. And so I don't really think of it in that way where in my mind, everyone knew about it. You know, I just wanted to tell it truthfully, and I wanted to show some of the more impactful moments in Native life. And that is one of them, obviously, because that changed everything. And, I mean, there's something that Hokti says at the. Is, like, what do you think they. Why do you think? Like, what do you think they came for when they tried to get rid of us? They came for community because they knew if they broke community, they would break the individual. And that's sort of. You know, that boarding school episode really fits into the overall themes of Community. To me, it's about violence against that community. So that's why it's in there.

[Interviewer]

I've got two texts. People are just texting in because they love the show. Reservation Dogs is so beautiful. I am utterly bereft that we are losing the opportunity to continue the relationship. The episode where the grandmother passed was stunningly beautiful. And this one says, hi, Alison, can you ask Sterling to start a campaign to get Paulina Alexis to be the first indigenous host of Saturday Night Live?

[Sterlin Harjo]

I would love that.

[Interviewer]

All right.

[Sterlin Harjo]

I would love to. And you know that Mabel episode where the grandmother passes? I mean, that, you know, again, that is my life. Like, that was my grandma. That's exactly what happened when my grandma passed down to when Big brings the giant squash. I mean, my friend Ryan Redcorn brought a giant squash to my house that we didn't know what to do with. You know, it's just like. You know, I think when a story is that personal, it's hard to go wrong. And it's also hard to keep it going forever because you are putting your life into it. You know, it's not. It's not a crime show. Like, it's not. It's not X Files. Like, I can't just, like, make up a plot like, it is my life, so at a certain point, it ends.

[Interviewer]

Was there something in the show, in the course of the series that you took a hard line on? Like, this has to be part of this show. Don't care. Whatever notes I'm getting, don't care what a feedback I'm getting. I just know in my core, in my gut, my creative mind's eye, this has to be part of this show.

[Sterlin Harjo]

I mean, there was a lot. I think that there was a lot. But I also had a lot of freedom through FX to do that. I mean, one of the biggest ones was shooting In Oklahoma. Right. Like, early on, there were talks about shooting in New Mexico. And I told them, my agents and everyone, I said that I wouldn't make the show. And this is after it was greenlit. And I was like, well, I won't make the show if we shoot anywhere else. And my argument was that, you know, with native and indigenous people, the land is the most important thing in a story about us. You know, these characters represent people who were forcibly removed by the US government to Indian Territory, Oklahoma, in the 1800s. You know, a lot of people passed away, and it took a lot to survive that.

[Actor Voice 1]

And.

[Sterlin Harjo]

And so it's really important if I'm telling the story of their descendants. Like, it needs to be in the place where they ended up at the end of the Trail of Tears. And to my surprise, FX was just like, oh, yeah, we'll shoot, and sure, let's do it. You know, like, once I told them that, they were like, oh, yeah, of course. Cool. You know, but there were a lot of things that I knew that needed to be in there. I mean, Paulina wearing slides is the smallest version of that. You know, it's like, gotta have sides and socks. You know, like, he's gotta buy some basketball shorts. You know, there. There were certain things in style that. That needed to be in there. But I think so much of the show is what you're asking is, like, was was that. You know, like, it has to be that to be real.

[Interviewer]

It was interesting. One TV critic called episode 8 the perfect season finale. Episode 10 is the season finale because episode 8 has a lot of action in it, and it ends more quietly.

[Sterlin Harjo]

Right. I think that our finale is the perfect finale. I think that it ends in the way that the show should end. It ends in humor, and it ends in heartbreak, but it ends in hope, and it ends with everyone being there. You know, I think that was part of it was there was a lot of people in episode eight, which. I love episode eight, but, like, there was a lot of people that were missing. So I think that the finale's perfect.

[Alison Stewart]

That was my conversation with showrunner Sterlin Harjo. His series Reservation Dogs was nominated for Outstanding Comedy Series at this year's Emmys. Up next, Molly Ringwald talks about her role in the FX series Truman Capote vs. The Swans, which was nominated in 10 Emmy categories. Stick around.

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