Steve Martin and Alison Brown's Banjo Collaboration

Summary

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All Of It – Steve Martin and Alison Brown's Banjo Collaboration

Host: Alison Stewart (WNYC)
Guests: Steve Martin, Alison Brown
Date: December 24, 2025
Episode Theme:
A vibrant, insightful conversation exploring the banjo-centric collaboration between celebrated musicians Steve Martin and Alison Brown, highlighting their creative process, banjo traditions, diverse musical styles, and the stories behind their new album, Safe, Sensible and Sane.

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Episode Overview

Alison Stewart welcomes Grammy Award-winning banjo players Alison Brown and Steve Martin to discuss their joint album, Safe, Sensible and Sane. The episode dives into their unique musical partnership, their approaches to tradition and innovation, how their distinct banjo techniques influence songwriting, and the whimsical origins of their songs and album. The discussion is lively and personable, with banjos in hand and a few live musical demonstrations.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Inspiration and Banjo Styles

[02:29-03:36]

• Alison Brown shares her admiration for Steve Martin’s clawhammer banjo style, distinct from her own three-finger technique.
  • "His style involves brushing the strings with the nails of his right hand... I hadn't thought about that style too much or realized how versatile it was until I really started collaborating with Steve." (02:29)
• Steve Martin contrasts the two styles on air, demonstrating both.
  • "She's playing with picks on her fingers and plucking upward, and I'm playing clawhammer with the back of my finger and striking down." (03:12)

2. The Creative Arc of the Album

[04:06-04:43]

• The album was not conceived with an overarching theme; songs emerged organically.
  • Alison Brown: "We wrote these songs kind of one at a time without a specific theme... the record starts off with just the two banjos talking to each other, just a little banjo conversation, and then builds up... then at the end, we take it back to just the banjos." (04:14)

3. Reinventing Tradition: “New Cluck Old Hen”

[04:43-06:56]

• Steve Martin describes revamping a classic Appalachian tune with new (and less problematic) lyrics after finding the originals outdated.
  • "I thought, gee, I hate to waste this beautiful melody on a lyric that to me was kind of fun but a little silly. And then we realized the song was a little bit misogynist, so we fixed it." (04:49)
• The collaboration with band Della Mae brings a modern, playful spirit to the track.
  • Live excerpt: "She took my dream, she took my hope. She got my house in row A.... All I have for dinner is a taco hen." (05:44)
  • Notable playful lyric: "Nag, nag, nag like a cluck old hen, that's new." (06:56, Unidentified Singer)

4. Writing Songs for Banjo and Lyrics

[07:15-08:07]

• Steve Martin discusses the challenge of overlaying lyrics onto banjo instrumentals and shares advice he received from Earl Scruggs.
  • "I could write a song for the banjo, but I couldn't figure out how to overlay lyrics... I asked Earl Scruggs, and he said, well, I just play the melody... so I can write a song and then write lyrics to my melody. Right, okay." (07:15)
  • "Musical lyrics are more forgiving... you might not put it in prose, but you can get away with murder." (07:58)

5. Live Performance: “Let’s Get Out of Here”

[08:13-09:49]

• Alison and Steve play a double-banjo tune from the album, showcasing the interplay of their instruments.
  • Memorable moment: Stewart humorously calls out, "Wait a second. I'm doing videos here. One Ban. Ban. That was Steve Martin." (09:49)
  • Steve’s response: "It is so much fun to play with Allison... We got a lot of fun." (09:55)

6. Career Reflections and Choosing the Banjo

[10:00-12:06]

• Alison Brown recounts her path from investment banking to professional banjo player and founding Compass Records.
  • "It was a stint as an investment banker that really made me appreciate how much I love the banjo... I just didn't have as much of an affinity for tax exempt debt as I did the music of Earl Scruggs." (10:16)
• Steve Martin shares his banjo origin story, including confusion over banjo types and early influences.
  • "I picked it up when I was about 16... there are two types of banjo... So I was trying to play bluegrass on a four string, which is impossible, although Irish people can do." (11:17)

7. Banjo Collecting & Instrument Stories

[12:39-13:51]

• Both artists discuss their personal banjo collections and favorite instruments.
  • Alison Brown: "I only have about, you know, 15, but I'm told that I have quite a few more." (12:41)
  • Describes a favorite Czech-made banjo, crafted under the Soviet occupation using smuggled banjo instructions.
    • "He had to smuggle the Earl Scruggs book in text only, figure out how to make his own banjo and how to plate his own picks." (12:57)
  • Steve Martin: "I have about the same... you gotta have one wherever you go." (13:28)
    • Shares his learning method—keeping a banjo in every room. "No matter where I went, I didn't have to go back to the other end of the house to get it to help me learn." (13:38)

8. The Album Title and the Art of Lyric-Making

[14:01-15:23]

• The phrase “Safe, Sensible and Sane” is lifted from an old letter-writing manual—one of many curious phrases that became a song.
  • Steve Martin: "I had a book that was written in the 1930s on how to improve your letter writing... these phrases... were supposed to elevate your letter writing and Safe, Sensible, Insane was one... so I, I copied them out... and she (Alison) set them to this... calypso sound. And the truth is they're nonsense. But Jason Mraz, we all agree that the more we sing them, the more sense they make, honestly." (14:14, 15:23)

9. Episode Close and Final Tune

[15:27-15:45]

• The duo end with a live snippet of the “Swing Song,” capping a thoughtfully playful and musical conversation.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Alison Brown on learning from Steve Martin:
  "I hadn't thought about that style too much or realized how versatile it was until I really started collaborating with Steve." (02:29)

• Steve Martin on writing banjo lyrics:
  "Musical lyrics are more forgiving. You might not put it in prose, but you can get away with murder." (07:58)

• On instrument collecting:
  Steve Martin: "I have about the same... you gotta have one wherever you go. I’d get a banjo and put one in every room so no matter where I went, I didn’t have to go back to the other end of the house to get it to help me learn." (13:28, 13:38)

• Alison Brown on career pivots:
  "I just didn't have as much of an affinity for tax exempt debt as I did the music of Earl Scruggs." (10:16)

• Steve Martin on banjo lyric origins:
  "Safe, Sensible, Insane was one... and she set them to this... calypso sound. And the truth is they're nonsense. But Jason Mraz, we all agree that the more we sing them, the more sense they make, honestly." (14:14, 15:23)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 02:29: Alison Brown describes the influence of Steve Martin’s banjo style.
• 03:12: Steve and Alison demo the difference between three-finger and clawhammer techniques.
• 04:14: The album’s organic development process.
• 04:49: “New Cluck Old Hen” origin and reworking lyrics.
• 07:15: Steve Martin’s songwriting process for banjo and lyrics.
• 08:13: Live banjo performance: “Let’s Get Out of Here.”
• 10:16: Alison Brown on switching from investment banking to music.
• 12:41: Banjo collections and favorite instruments.
• 14:01: The quirky history of the album title.
• 15:27: Closing live tune “Swing Song.”

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Episode Tone

Warm, playful, and richly informative, with genuine camaraderie between guests. The conversation carries a spirit of musical curiosity and collaboration, sprinkled with wit, humility, and reverence for tradition.

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This episode provides a masterclass in creative partnership and banjo artistry—making it essential listening for music fans, banjo aficionados, and anyone curious about the blend of tradition, innovation, and serendipity in collaborative art.

Transcript

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[Alison Stewart]

This is all of it. I'm Alison Stewart. We're going to close out today's show with some joyous twang. I'm talking about a pair of banjos played by Grammy Award winning musicians Alison Brown and Steve Martin. The duo have been playing and writing songs together and earlier this year they released a new album called Safe, Sensible and Sane. It features vocalists like Vince Gill, Jason Mraz and the Indigo Girls. And sometimes Allison and Steve just play. Let's listen to a little bit of their song Evening Star. When banjo collaborators Steve Martin and Allison Brown joined me here in studio, I started by asking Allison to tell us the story behind that song we just heard, Evening Star.

[Alison Brown]

Well, my favorite story about this tune is just how inspired I was by Steve's clawhammer style of banjo playing, which is a more traditional style than the three finger style I play that involves metal picks. His style involves brushing the strings with the nails of his right hand. And I hadn't thought about that style too much or realized how versatile it was until I really started collaborating with Steve and he played me a beautiful thumb three four time melody that he'd written for clawhammer banjo. So that was what inspired me to think about what we could do with that idea.

[Alison Stewart]

Explain to civilians what a claw hammer banjo is.

[Steve Martin]

Well, it's a style. Why don't you play a quick three finger lick?

[Alison Brown]

Yeah.

[Steve Martin]

And this is a claw hammer sound. That's it. But the difference is. And not the audience. The audience doesn't really need to know this. But she's playing with picks on her fingers and plucking upward and I'm playing climb with the back of my finger and striking down.

[Alison Stewart]

Allison just explained what she admired about your playing. What did you admire about her playing?

[Steve Martin]

Well, Alison is one of the great banjo Players. She's won banjo player of the Year from the International Bluegrass Music association, which is not easy to win. And she also plays in multiple styles. I mean, we have songs on her record that are bossa nova, that are calypso, that are Irish, that are American bluegrass. So she's really the leader in those different styles.

[Alison Stewart]

The album is called safe, Sensible and Sane. Alison, is there an arc to the album or is this just songs that you liked?

[Alison Brown]

Well, you know, we wrote these songs kind of one at a time without a specific theme or a specific agenda. Actually, we didn't really even think we were writing an album. We were just writing music together. But I do think there's an arc. I mean, the record starts off with just the two banjos talking to each other, just a little banjo conversation, and then builds up to, like Steve was saying, like, some different directions that I don't think we really intended when we started off the bossa nova feel or Caribbean feel. And then at the end, we take it back to just the banches.

[Alison Stewart]

There's a song on it called New Cluck Old Hen. It's a reimagination of an Appalachian tune, I believe.

[Steve Martin]

Yes. The song Sorry, I have this little morning cough. The song is about 150 years old. I research it a bit, and it's always been one of my favorite melodies to play on the banjo. And I looked up the lyrics and I was aware of the lyrics, and they struck me as, you know, like a 19th century kind of nonsense song. And I thought, gee, I hate to waste this beautiful melody on a lyric that to me was kind of fun but little silly. As bought a chicken that can lay either eight eggs or 10 eggs. And so I reimagined it, as we say today, and came up with new lyrics. And then we realized the song was a little bit misogynist, so we fixed.

[Alison Stewart]

That with Della Mae.

[Steve Martin]

This band gave a nice comeback at the end.

[Alison Stewart]

Well, let's listen to New Cluck Old Hen from Safe, sensible and saying.

[Steve Martin]

She took my dream, she took my hope. She got my house in row A.

[Alison Brown]

No.

[Steve Martin]

She sold my car, she got my friends. All I have for dinner is a taco hen.

[Alison Brown]

That's right.

[Unidentified Singer]

You called me up. Can I come back? You got your bags already packed. I said, honey, you made your choice. She's your win and I'm your loss. The kids are happy with their new dad, unlike you. Here's a high school grad, we're as happy as a whippoorwill. You can find the red eye at the red cat grill. Click on and cluck old hand Cluck, cluck, cluck like a cuckold hen Cluck old hen Cluck old hand Nag, nag, nag like a cluck old hand that's new.

[Alison Stewart]

Cluck old hand from the album Safe, Sensible, and Sane. My guests are Steve Martin, Alison Brown, and they're Banjos. Steve, when you're writing for music, you've written for tv, you've written for yourself. How is it different? And you're writing music?

[Steve Martin]

Oh, well, I had to figure out how to write lyrics. I couldn't. I mean, yes, I did write the lyrics to King Tut, but I really had to think about it. And I was talking to Earl Scruggs one day, and I could figure out I could write a song for the banjo, but I couldn't figure out how to overlay lyrics. And so I asked Earl Scruggs, I said, what. What do you play when you play backup? And he said, well, I just play the melody. And I go, oh, so I can write a song and then write lyrics to the. My melody. Right, okay. It sounds like a simple thing, but it took me a while. You know, I think musical lyrics are more forgiving. You know, you might not put it in prose, but you can get away with murder.

[Alison Stewart]

All right, you've brought your banjos with you. What are you gonna play for us today?

[Alison Brown]

Well, we'll play a little bit of a double banjo tune that's on the record, actually. But, you know, the essence of it. I really love the way the two banjos sing together. It's a tune that Steve came up with the title for. It's called let's get out of Here.

[Steve Martin]

One, two, three.

[Alison Brown]

Yay.

[Alison Stewart]

Wait a second. I'm doing videos here. One Ban. Ban. That was Steve Martin.

[Steve Martin]

It is so much fun to play with Allison. This really is. We got a lot of fun.

[Alison Brown]

I catch you, Steve. So fun.

[Steve Martin]

We're locked together there.

[Alison Stewart]

Alison, you started playing banjo when you were a kid. You went to college, you went to Harvard, you got your MBA from ucla. When did it become clear to you, you know what? This is going to become my life's work, playing banjo?

[Alison Brown]

Yes. Well, you know, I'm still thinking about it. Really. It's kind of an interesting profession. I don't know. I've always really, really loved the banjo, and I think it was a stint as an investment banker that really made me appreciate how much I love the banjo. When I realized that I just didn't have as much of an affinity for tax exempt Debt, as I did the music of Earl Scruggs. So. But it was really a series of baby steps and I get a chance through, you know, Compass Records, which is the label I co founded with Gary west, my husband, 30 years ago this year.

[Steve Martin]

Wow.

[Alison Brown]

And yeah, it's hard to believe. So we get a chance to like, do the business side of things and support roots music that way and then play music too. So it's really the best of both worlds.

[Alison Stewart]

What was the moment when you were an investment banker and you thought, I'm not going to do this anymore?

[Alison Brown]

Oh, gosh. It was probably one of those all nighters with a, you know, proposal for a bond refunding somewhere.

[Steve Martin]

Sounds fascinating.

[Alison Stewart]

Steve, when did you pick up the banjo? The very, very first time.

[Steve Martin]

Well, I picked it up when I was about 16 and I made a mistake because I heard the banjo with the Kingston Trio and bluegrass music and I didn't realize there were two types of banjo. There's a four string banjo and a five string banjo. And so my girlfriend at the time, you know, I was 16 and her father had a four string banjo. So I'm trying to play bluegrass on a four string, which is impossible, although Irish people can do.

[Alison Brown]

So.

[Steve Martin]

Then I, in my class was John McEwen, who became a member of the Nitty Gritty Dirt Band and was a banjo player already. And they said, well, there's a guy who plays. So I went. And that's when I got straight, you know, I got a five string banjo and I paid $200. I still have it. And that's when I started playing.

[Alison Stewart]

And at first you incorporated in your comedy act a little bit?

[Steve Martin]

Well, yeah, because I'm, you know, as a young comedian, the thing that's the hardest to acquire is material. So I threw everything I had at it. I could play the banjo, I recited poetry, I did a magic act, I juggled. I did everything to get it up to the 20 minute requirement. And if it was a bad night, if the audience wasn't with me, my 20 minutes would shrink to 12.

[Alison Stewart]

How many banjos do you have, Alison?

[Alison Brown]

Well, I think that I only have about, you know, 15, but I'm told that I have quite a few more.

[Alison Stewart]

Do you have a favorite? A favorite one?

[Alison Brown]

Well, the one I'm playing right now is one of my favorite ones. It was made in the Czech Republic in.

[Alison Stewart]

Oh, it's beautiful. In Prague.

[Alison Brown]

Yep. By a builder who was so committed to learning how to play the banjo during, during the Soviet occupation that he had to smuggle the Earl Scruggs book in text only figure out how to make his own banjo and how to plate his own picks. And it's really a great instrument. It has a great sound.

[Alison Stewart]

That's so beautiful. Just the way it looks is gorgeous.

[Steve Martin]

Banjos lend themselves to decoration. There's a lot of inlay on the neck and you can see I have another one that's this is silver, but the other one's gold, can be very fancy.

[Alison Stewart]

How many do you have?

[Steve Martin]

Well, I have about the same. I mean, you know, you gotta have one wherever you go.

[Alison Stewart]

So it's gotta be a banjo wherever you go.

[Steve Martin]

I mean when I first started learning to play, I'd get a banjo and put one in every room so no matter where I went, I didn't have to go back to the other end of the house to get it to help me learn.

[Alison Brown]

Perfect.

[Alison Stewart]

My guests are Grammy award winning musicians Steve Martin and Alison Brown. Were discussing their new album Safe, Sensible and Sane. Where does the title come from?

[Steve Martin]

Well, it's a confession that one of our songs is called Safe Sensible Insane. It's sung by Jason Mraz and it has a calypso kind of beat to it.

[Alison Brown]

Yeah, definitely Caribbean vibe.

[Steve Martin]

But what happened was I was, you know, I'm a writer so I have a lot of thesauruses and different books and kind of collect, you know, word books and I had a book that was written in the 1930s on how to improve your letter writing and I. There was one section that listed these phrases that were like, we should look them up. There's like one of things you can put in your letter like thank you for the frank statement of your affairs. These are supposed to elevate your letter writing and Safe, Sensible Insane was one. Anyway, there was a whole list and I thought they sounded like music lyrics so I, I copied them out, wrote them down and then one day I just. And I said Alison, these sound to me like music lyrics. And she arranged them so they could kind of rhyme and then she set them to this, their, you know, calypso sound. And the truth is they're nonsense. But Jason Mraz, we all agree that the more we sing them, the more sense they make, honestly.

[Alison Stewart]

Yeah, Even saying it out loud. Would you play us out a little bit?

[Steve Martin]

Oh, the swing song.

[Alison Brown]

Swing song, yeah.

[Steve Martin]

1, 2, 3, 4.

[Alison Stewart]

That was my conversation with Grammy award winning banjo players Alison Brown and Steve Martin. Their latest album is called Safe, Sensible and Sane. And that is all of it for today. Thank you for spending part of your Christmas Eve with us. All of it is produced by Andrea Duncan Mao, Kate Hines, Jordan Lof, Simon Close, Zach Goddard, Cohen El Malik Anderson and Luke Greene. Our intern was India Rice. Megan Ryan is the head of Live Radio. Our engineers are Juliana Fonda, Amber Bruce and Irene Trudelle. Luscious Jackson does our music. If you missed any segments this week, catch up by listening to our podcast, available on your podcast platform of choice. If you like what you hear, please leave us a great rating. It helps people find the show. I'm Alison Stewart. I appreciate you listening and I appreciate you. May all of your holiday festivities be holly and jolly. I'll meet you back here next time.

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