All Of It – Steve Martin and Alison Brown's Banjo Collaboration

Host: Alison Stewart (WNYC)
Guests: Steve Martin, Alison Brown
Date: December 24, 2025
Episode Theme:
A vibrant, insightful conversation exploring the banjo-centric collaboration between celebrated musicians Steve Martin and Alison Brown, highlighting their creative process, banjo traditions, diverse musical styles, and the stories behind their new album, Safe, Sensible and Sane.

Episode Overview

Alison Stewart welcomes Grammy Award-winning banjo players Alison Brown and Steve Martin to discuss their joint album, Safe, Sensible and Sane. The episode dives into their unique musical partnership, their approaches to tradition and innovation, how their distinct banjo techniques influence songwriting, and the whimsical origins of their songs and album. The discussion is lively and personable, with banjos in hand and a few live musical demonstrations.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Inspiration and Banjo Styles

[02:29-03:36]

• Alison Brown shares her admiration for Steve Martin’s clawhammer banjo style, distinct from her own three-finger technique.
  • "His style involves brushing the strings with the nails of his right hand... I hadn't thought about that style too much or realized how versatile it was until I really started collaborating with Steve." (02:29)
• Steve Martin contrasts the two styles on air, demonstrating both.
  • "She's playing with picks on her fingers and plucking upward, and I'm playing clawhammer with the back of my finger and striking down." (03:12)

2. The Creative Arc of the Album

[04:06-04:43]

• The album was not conceived with an overarching theme; songs emerged organically.
  • Alison Brown: "We wrote these songs kind of one at a time without a specific theme... the record starts off with just the two banjos talking to each other, just a little banjo conversation, and then builds up... then at the end, we take it back to just the banjos." (04:14)

3. Reinventing Tradition: “New Cluck Old Hen”

[04:43-06:56]

• Steve Martin describes revamping a classic Appalachian tune with new (and less problematic) lyrics after finding the originals outdated.
  • "I thought, gee, I hate to waste this beautiful melody on a lyric that to me was kind of fun but a little silly. And then we realized the song was a little bit misogynist, so we fixed it." (04:49)
• The collaboration with band Della Mae brings a modern, playful spirit to the track.
  • Live excerpt: "She took my dream, she took my hope. She got my house in row A.... All I have for dinner is a taco hen." (05:44)
  • Notable playful lyric: "Nag, nag, nag like a cluck old hen, that's new." (06:56, Unidentified Singer)

4. Writing Songs for Banjo and Lyrics

[07:15-08:07]

• Steve Martin discusses the challenge of overlaying lyrics onto banjo instrumentals and shares advice he received from Earl Scruggs.
  • "I could write a song for the banjo, but I couldn't figure out how to overlay lyrics... I asked Earl Scruggs, and he said, well, I just play the melody... so I can write a song and then write lyrics to my melody. Right, okay." (07:15)
  • "Musical lyrics are more forgiving... you might not put it in prose, but you can get away with murder." (07:58)

5. Live Performance: “Let’s Get Out of Here”

[08:13-09:49]

• Alison and Steve play a double-banjo tune from the album, showcasing the interplay of their instruments.
  • Memorable moment: Stewart humorously calls out, "Wait a second. I'm doing videos here. One Ban. Ban. That was Steve Martin." (09:49)
  • Steve’s response: "It is so much fun to play with Allison... We got a lot of fun." (09:55)

6. Career Reflections and Choosing the Banjo

[10:00-12:06]

• Alison Brown recounts her path from investment banking to professional banjo player and founding Compass Records.
  • "It was a stint as an investment banker that really made me appreciate how much I love the banjo... I just didn't have as much of an affinity for tax exempt debt as I did the music of Earl Scruggs." (10:16)
• Steve Martin shares his banjo origin story, including confusion over banjo types and early influences.
  • "I picked it up when I was about 16... there are two types of banjo... So I was trying to play bluegrass on a four string, which is impossible, although Irish people can do." (11:17)

7. Banjo Collecting & Instrument Stories

[12:39-13:51]

• Both artists discuss their personal banjo collections and favorite instruments.
  • Alison Brown: "I only have about, you know, 15, but I'm told that I have quite a few more." (12:41)
  • Describes a favorite Czech-made banjo, crafted under the Soviet occupation using smuggled banjo instructions.
    • "He had to smuggle the Earl Scruggs book in text only, figure out how to make his own banjo and how to plate his own picks." (12:57)
  • Steve Martin: "I have about the same... you gotta have one wherever you go." (13:28)
    • Shares his learning method—keeping a banjo in every room. "No matter where I went, I didn't have to go back to the other end of the house to get it to help me learn." (13:38)

8. The Album Title and the Art of Lyric-Making

[14:01-15:23]

• The phrase “Safe, Sensible and Sane” is lifted from an old letter-writing manual—one of many curious phrases that became a song.
  • Steve Martin: "I had a book that was written in the 1930s on how to improve your letter writing... these phrases... were supposed to elevate your letter writing and Safe, Sensible, Insane was one... so I, I copied them out... and she (Alison) set them to this... calypso sound. And the truth is they're nonsense. But Jason Mraz, we all agree that the more we sing them, the more sense they make, honestly." (14:14, 15:23)

9. Episode Close and Final Tune

[15:27-15:45]

• The duo end with a live snippet of the “Swing Song,” capping a thoughtfully playful and musical conversation.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Alison Brown on learning from Steve Martin:
  "I hadn't thought about that style too much or realized how versatile it was until I really started collaborating with Steve." (02:29)

• Steve Martin on writing banjo lyrics:
  "Musical lyrics are more forgiving. You might not put it in prose, but you can get away with murder." (07:58)

• On instrument collecting:
  Steve Martin: "I have about the same... you gotta have one wherever you go. I’d get a banjo and put one in every room so no matter where I went, I didn’t have to go back to the other end of the house to get it to help me learn." (13:28, 13:38)

• Alison Brown on career pivots:
  "I just didn't have as much of an affinity for tax exempt debt as I did the music of Earl Scruggs." (10:16)

• Steve Martin on banjo lyric origins:
  "Safe, Sensible, Insane was one... and she set them to this... calypso sound. And the truth is they're nonsense. But Jason Mraz, we all agree that the more we sing them, the more sense they make, honestly." (14:14, 15:23)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 02:29: Alison Brown describes the influence of Steve Martin’s banjo style.
• 03:12: Steve and Alison demo the difference between three-finger and clawhammer techniques.
• 04:14: The album’s organic development process.
• 04:49: “New Cluck Old Hen” origin and reworking lyrics.
• 07:15: Steve Martin’s songwriting process for banjo and lyrics.
• 08:13: Live banjo performance: “Let’s Get Out of Here.”
• 10:16: Alison Brown on switching from investment banking to music.
• 12:41: Banjo collections and favorite instruments.
• 14:01: The quirky history of the album title.
• 15:27: Closing live tune “Swing Song.”

Episode Tone

Warm, playful, and richly informative, with genuine camaraderie between guests. The conversation carries a spirit of musical curiosity and collaboration, sprinkled with wit, humility, and reverence for tradition.

This episode provides a masterclass in creative partnership and banjo artistry—making it essential listening for music fans, banjo aficionados, and anyone curious about the blend of tradition, innovation, and serendipity in collaborative art.