Susan Choi's New Novel 'Flashlight'

Summary

Podcast Episode Summary: All Of It – Susan Choi's New Novel 'Flashlight'

Podcast Information:

• Title: All Of It
• Host: Alex Alison Stewart
• Guest: Susan Choi, National Book Award-winning author
• Episode Title: Susan Choi's New Novel 'Flashlight'
• Release Date: June 25, 2025
• Description: ALL OF IT is a show about culture and its consumers, aiming to engage thinkers, doers, makers, and creators in discussions about their work and its cultural context.

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Introduction to 'Flashlight'

In this episode of All Of It, host Alex Alison Stewart delves into Susan Choi's latest novel, 'Flashlight'. The conversation explores the novel's intricate narrative spanning decades and perspectives, beginning with a poignant accident in Japan that shapes the protagonist's life.

Key Plot Points:

• The story opens with a tragic incident where 10-year-old Louisa and her father, Cirque, experience a rocky fall on a breakwater in Japan, leading to Cirque's presumed death.
• The narrative then shifts to 1940s Japan, detailing Cirque's childhood as a Korean in a Japanese-dominated society, his family's emigration to North Korea, and his eventual move to America to build a new life.
• The novel weaves through decades, presenting the complexities of family dynamics, identity, and survival.

“Susan Choi’s new novel begins with an accident. 10 year old Louisa and her father Cirque are walking on the rocky breakwater at night... This tragedy defines the arc of a novel that unfolds over decades and different perspectives.” [00:29]

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Origins and Development of 'Flashlight'

Susan Choi discusses the genesis of 'Flashlight', stemming from a short story published in the New Yorker in 2020. She reflects on her childhood experiences in Japan and how unexplained events from the late 70s influenced her imagination, ultimately shaping the novel.

“The first idea came a long, long time ago... I spent time in Japan when I was a kid and it was very memorable.” [01:50]

Choi elaborates on her writing process, initially aiming for a novella inspired by Jenny Erpenbeck's 'Visitation', but the novel organically expanded into a more extensive work. She acknowledges the challenge of conveying East Asian history to an American audience, necessitating a more detailed narrative.

“There was a lot that she could kind of leave in the margins... And I decided to dive into this period of East Asian history that... is not that well known.” [03:35]

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Narrative Structure and Themes

Choi describes 'Flashlight' as a family story focused on how a small family navigates tragedy and change. She emphasizes the importance of cultural identity, generational trauma, and the resilience required to overcome adversity.

“I wanted it to be a family story... I wanted to explore how they make it through that.” [17:33]

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Symbolism and Metaphors

A significant portion of the discussion centers around the symbolic use of the flashlight in the novel. While Choi did not initially plan for the flashlight to carry metaphorical weight, it emerged organically during the writing process, serving as a central motif representing guidance and the search for understanding.

“I don't plan metaphors or themes... It was a little bit of a tribute to my own family's immigration story.” [12:32]

“The flashlight was the right thing... I think it pulls things together that my conscious kind of analytical mind doesn't even recognize.” [13:07]

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Character Development and Naming

The conversation delves into the protagonist Cirque's evolving identity through his changing names, reflecting his struggle with cultural assimilation and self-identity. Choi explains the significance of each name and its relation to his heritage and personal journey.

“Cirque is a boy born to ethnic Korean parents in Japan... his name is Hiroshi at school.” [17:05]

Choi also touches on her personal connection to the character Louisa, revealing that aspects of Louisa are inspired by her own childhood, adding depth to the character's contentious nature.

“There are aspects of Louisa that I definitely was drawing on my own childhood self for.” [14:20]

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Excerpts from 'Flashlight'

Susan Choi reads an excerpt from her novel, providing listeners with a glimpse into the narrative's emotional depth and character dynamics. The passage highlights the strained relationship between Louisa and her father, setting the tone for the novel's exploration of familial bonds and personal struggles.

“Louisa and her father are making their way down the breakwater... These are the last words he ever says to her.” [06:16]

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Literary Influences and Recommendations

Choi shares her literary inspirations and recommends a selection of books for listeners to consider for their summer reading. Her choices reflect her appreciation for diverse narratives and deep cultural explorations.

Recommended Reads:

• 'The Odyssey' translated by Daniel Mendelsohn
• 'The Ballad of Black Tom' by Victor LaValle
• 'Negroland' by Margo Jefferson
• 'Good Girl' by Aria Eber
• 'Daughters of the Bamboo Grove' by Barbara Demick

“I have to highly, highly recommend Barbara Demick's new book, Daughters of the Bamboo Grove.” [20:07]

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Conclusion and Final Thoughts

The episode concludes with a heartfelt exchange between Choi and Stewart, emphasizing the universal themes of family, identity, and resilience that resonate throughout 'Flashlight'. Choi expresses her gratitude for the opportunity to share her work and engage with listeners about the intricate layers of her storytelling.

“I wanted it to be a family story... And I wanted to explore how they make it through that.” [17:33]

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Notable Quotes:

• “Louisa tolerates this out of kindness... Had no idea Cirque's actions would lead to this.” [06:20]
• “I think, you know, grownups are just... They let you down.” [10:36]
• “The flashlight was the right thing... It pulls things together.” [13:07]

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Final Notes

Susan Choi's 'Flashlight' promises to be a compelling addition to contemporary literature, weaving personal and historical narratives into a rich tapestry that explores the depths of family and cultural identity. This episode of All Of It offers listeners an insightful look into the creative process behind the novel and the themes that drive Choi's storytelling.

Transcript

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[Alex Alison Stewart]

This is all of it on WNYC. I'm Alex Alison Stewart. Susan Choi's new novel begins with an accident. 10 year old Louisa and her father Cirque are walking on the rocky breakwater at night. They're in Japan. The details are a bit murky, but somehow Sirque slips and falls. Luisa falls too. She survives, but her father apparently drowns. This tragedy defines the arc of a novel that unfolds over decades and different perspectives. From this incident then, we return to 1940s Japan to see Cirque's childhood through his own eyes. We learn that Cirque is Korean and because of his Korean identity, opportunity is hard to come by in Japan. So much so that Sirque's parents decide to leave for North Korea where life has been promised to be better by the government. Sirk is skeptical, so he stays behind until he decides to study in America and make a new life for himself. He meets a woman named Anne on campus who carries her own difficult past. The two marry, they have Louisa, and so begins the family story. The novel is called Flashlight. It is out now. Susan Choi is with me in studio. She won the national book Award in 2019. Trust Exercise welcome back to WNYC.

[Susan Choi]

Oh, thanks. I'm so happy to be here.

[Alex Alison Stewart]

So this short story emerged from a story in the New Yorker in 2020. I remember I read that story.

[Susan Choi]

Oh, it.

[Alex Alison Stewart]

Thanks. We read it last night. When did you get the first idea for the original?

[Interview Participant]

The story?

[Susan Choi]

Oh, the first idea came a long, long time ago, but I couldn't figure out how to make it into writing. I spent time in Japan when I was a kid and it was, it was very memorable. Strange, the things that happened to these characters did not happen to me, but it was still a memorable time. I always wanted to write about it later. Much later, when I was an adult, I started to learn about a string of unexplained events that had taken place in Japan in the late 70s at the same time I had been there. You know, obviously they didn't thankfully affect me directly. But that coincidence of those strange things happening when I had been there as a kid just sort of, I don't know, pricked my imagination and I grew this Book eventually out of that.

[Interview Participant]

What's your process for fleshing out a story? It was a long story, but it was a story into a big old book.

[Susan Choi]

Oh, my. Oh, my God. It's a big old book. I didn't mean it to be so big.

[Interview Participant]

It's your longest book.

[Susan Choi]

Yeah, it is. And it's so ironic because I. Once I realized I wanted to write about these themes, I also was aspiring to write novella.

[Interview Participant]

Okay.

[Susan Choi]

I failed. There was a book. There is a book called Visitation by Jenny Erpenbeck that is just an incredible book, and it looks at 20th century Germany through the lens of these very, very personal details. And I loved what she did. And I thought, God, I wonder if I could write about these themes that way. Her book is very lean, full of white space. And I thought, ooh, I'm gonna do that. And the result is, like, the longest book I've ever published. It's like four times longer than.

[Interview Participant]

Did it feel right for it to be this long?

[Susan Choi]

I mean, it evolved and it evolved again. And eventually, you know, I came to understand sort of late in the game that one of the things that, you know, this inspirational text had that my topic didn't have was, like, strong familiarity. It was, you know, 20th century Germany. It's centered on the Holocaust. There was a lot that she could kind of leave in the margins because it would be implied for the readers. And I decided to dive into this period of East Asian history that, like, isn't that well known. There's a lot of aspects of this that just aren't known, especially to American readers. I mean, of course, they're known to, you know, residents of East Asia, to specialists of that history, but to the reading public that I'm writing for, not that well known. So that just didn't allow for this short book that I imagined.

[Interview Participant]

That's interesting because it did send me to Google a couple of times.

[Susan Choi]

Okay.

[Interview Participant]

Which I thought was.

[Susan Choi]

I hope not out of confusion, but.

[Interview Participant]

No, no, no. But I just wanted to know more.

[Susan Choi]

Yeah, yeah, good, good. But. But you wanted to know more. And my editor also wanted to know more as I was writing. So she brilliantly identified some big holes, you know, in this book while we were working on it, where she was like, I think you need to add. And then there was a list.

[Interview Participant]

How did you go about adding more?

[Susan Choi]

I mean, it was. I almost feel like this layering or collaging process where I had struggled with this book for so long and finally had written a draft that I thought, like, oh, this is, you know, I got it. Like, I understand the structure. And then the draft, you know, the best draft, I think makes clear to you, like, what's wrong with it.

[Alex Alison Stewart]

Yeah, yeah.

[Susan Choi]

And the draft was complete enough that it showed me all the incomplete places, you know what I mean? And so it was clear. One of the big holes was sir himself, his background. My editor said, you know, this guy comes out of a social context, being an ethnic Korean raised in Japan in the 30s and 40s that most of us American readers are not going to understand at all. You're going to have to go deeper. That was. It ended up being like the first chapter, actually, but one of the last things I wrote.

[Alex Alison Stewart]

One of the last things.

[Susan Choi]

You wrote one of the last things because I just was like, you know, I was trying to be very lean and not go deep into backstory, but I realized the backstory is actually really. I hope it's really interesting. Once I was reconciled to how much I was gonna need to add, I then got really excited about it. And it ended up being such a fun challenge, research wise.

[Alex Alison Stewart]

I'm speaking with Susan Choi. Her new book is called Flashlight. Will you read a little bit of your book for us?

[Susan Choi]

Yeah, I'm gonna read from the very beginning.

[Alex Alison Stewart]

Oh, this is. This is good.

[Susan Choi]

So these are the first pages, although they're not the earliest events of the book. Louisa and her father are making their way down the breakwater, each careful step on the heaved granite blocks one step farther from shore. Her mother is not even on the shore, for example, seated, smiling on the sand, her mother is shut inside the small, almost waterfront house they are renting, most likely in bed. All summer, Louisa has played in the waves by herself because her mother isn't well and her father is unvaryingly dressed in a jacket and slacks. But tonight, he has finally agreed to walk the breakwater with her. She's asked every day since they first arrived. Spray from the waves sometimes lands on the rocks. And so he has carefully rolled up the cuffs of his slacks. He still wears his hard, polished shoes. In one hand, he holds a flashlight, which is not necessary. In the other hand, he holds Louise's hand, which is also not necessary. She tolerates this out of kindness. One thing I will always owe your mother is she taught you to swim because swimming is important to know how to do for your safety. But when she gave you lessons, I thought it was too dangerous. I was very unfair. I hate swimming. They both know the opposite is true. Perhaps her father recognizes her comment for what it partly is, a declaration of loyalty to him as well as for what it mostly is a declaration by a 10 year old child who is contentious by reflex. Far over the water, far beyond where the breakwater joins with a thin spit of sand, the sunset has lost all its warmth. They'll turn back soon. I never learned to swim, her father reveals. I don't believe you. She scoffs. Everybody can swim. Though it's true, he always makes a big deal when she wants to get in or even get near the water. It's true. I grew up a poor boy. I had no ymca. The YMCA is disgusting. I hate going there. Someday you'll feel thankful to your mother, but I want you to act thankful now. These are the last words he ever says to her. Or are they the last words that she can remember? Did he say something more? There's no one to ask.

[Interview Participant]

That was Susan Choi reading from her book flashlight. There's so much information in just those few paragraphs.

[Alex Alison Stewart]

First of all, your mother isn't well.

[Interview Participant]

What's going on with her mother?

[Susan Choi]

Yeah, we. We later go back to the time leading up to this scene and we meet Louise's mother, Ann, and start to learn a little bit about the many secrets that she's keeping. And one of the secrets that she's keeping is she has. She has started to have symptoms that she does not understand physical symptom. But she initially thinks, maybe it's all in my head, maybe I'm depressed, maybe I'm anxious. You know, she's having trouble walking, she's uncoordinated. Later, you know, she. And we learn that it's not in her head, she's not imagining what's going on.

[Interview Participant]

We also learn that Louisa is contentious.

[Susan Choi]

At the least. Yeah, she's a contentious child. She is. She's a child who is maybe a little too smart for her own good at the outset. But things are starting to go wrong in her family and no one is really explaining to her why or what's happening. She's being kept in the dark by both parents about different things. And, you know, her reaction is to become difficult.

[Interview Participant]

It's in the story and in the book. After that paragraph, we meet Louisa at a doctor's office who's trying to get her to understand that she can talk. She's like, I'm not talking to you.

[Susan Choi]

Yeah, yeah, he's a. Well, he's that kind of doctor. He's a talking doctor.

[Interview Participant]

He's a talking doctor.

[Susan Choi]

You know, he's a. I can help you feel better doctor. But she's, she's like not having it?

[Alex Alison Stewart]

Yeah.

[Interview Participant]

Why isn't she having it?

[Susan Choi]

I think that she walks into that room, that doctor's office, full of mistrust for grownups. Grownups are just, you know, what is up with them? They're so pompous. What are they doing? They let you down. But even, you know, in that scene, which is. Is immediately after what I just read, even in the course of a pretty short scene, she opens up to this doctor. She starts goofing around a little, you know, starts talking to him about movies. And what I hoped that the reader understood, even from that prologue scene is she so desperately, like, wants to connect with somebody. She really wants help. She doesn't know how to ask for it.

[Interview Participant]

When Louisa is in the office in those early scenes, we come across a flashlight, the title of the book, and Louisa steals it. She just straight up steals it.

[Susan Choi]

Spoiler alert, Allison. That happens on page seven.

[Interview Participant]

All the way on page seven. Why is a flashlight important not only to the plot, but also, like, metaphorically? It's the title of your book.

[Susan Choi]

Yeah. You know, one of the weird and kind of amazing things that happens in writing, at least for me, is I don't tend to premeditate much. I usually. I'm interested in, like. Usually I have characters, and I have a weird situation in mind. I'm like, what would happen to these people if this took place? But I don't. I don't plan, Like, I don't know if any writer does. I don't plan, like, metaphors or themes or, like, symbols. No, no, I don't. You know, I don't know. Did F. Scott Fitzgerald, like, plan on that green light? Like, maybe he did, but I don't know how to do that. And usually it's not until some point in the revision process where I start recognizing that things that I just stuck in there have a resonance that I hadn't expected in the flashlight.

[Alex Alison Stewart]

Oh, that's interesting.

[Susan Choi]

Is. Yeah. Big, big example of that, where I don't really remember making the decision, like, oh, Louise and her dad are gonna have a flashlight on the beach, and then there's gonna be a flashlight shortly thereafter, you know, in this doctor's office after everything has changed for her. I don't remember thinking, like, oh, that'll be a good symbol, and perhaps even will serve metaphorically. And I can use it for the title. Like, none of that occurred to me.

[Alex Alison Stewart]

But do you think creative people, that kind of thing comes from the outside? It likes a place that you don't know where it comes from?

[Susan Choi]

I think I really like that.

[Alex Alison Stewart]

I really believe creative people are more open.

[Susan Choi]

Yeah.

[Alex Alison Stewart]

And things just get in their psyche and comes out in the work.

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I agree.

[Susan Choi]

I think that that's right. And I often, you know, I often try to actually think of metaphors for how these metaphors happen. Like, you know, like, I once wrote an essay describing, like, my own creative process as kind of like a murky pond full of, like, a bunch of stuff. And, like, writing kind of stirs it up and things rise to the surface. You don't really know why. But then often they turn out to be the right thing. And the Flashlight was the right thing. But it wasn't until really late, even after the story ran, that the metaphor of that flashlight kind of occurred to me. Right. I called the story Flashlight because I didn't have another idea. I was like, well, the story's pretty short. There's a flashlight in it. That sounds good. But I think on some deeper level, I do think I have a writer's mind that is smarter than me, thank God. And I think it pulls things together that my conscious kind of analytical mind doesn't even recognize as working well until a lot later, if ever.

[Alex Alison Stewart]

I was listening to an interview you did, and you said that your mom weighed in on Louisa.

[Susan Choi]

My mom read the book and stuff.

[Alex Alison Stewart]

Like that about Louisa.

[Susan Choi]

She was like, well, she's so obnoxious. And it was funny because I didn't want to say that. There are aspects of Louisa that I definitely was drawing on my own childhood self for. I thought, oh, does my mom like me better than Louisa? I'll take it. Okay. That's fine.

[Alex Alison Stewart]

The name of the book is Flashlight.

[Interview Participant]

I'm speaking with National Book Award winning author Susan Choi.

[Alex Alison Stewart]

Throughout the story, Cirque goes by different names. He chooses different names for himself. Why does he choose to call himself different things?

[Susan Choi]

Yeah, well, the first choice isn't a choice, and I think that's a little maybe impactful for him. So Sirk is a boy. He's been born to ethnic Korean parents in Japan during the period that Japan colonized Korea during the Japanese Empire. And so there was no Korea in the opinion of the Japanese Empire. You were just a Japanese subject. But Sir's parents are Koreans. They've gone to Japan to try to make a better life for themselves because they're very, very poor. But they have to play by the rules. And so even though they name him a Korean name, which I'm gonna, you know, Korean speakers out there. I'm sorry, I wish I could speak the language, but the name would be pronounced by me, Sok. And it's. It consists of these. These three characters in Hangul. And I can write it more easily than I can say it, but he. He goes to school and at school he has to have a Japanese name. And in the way that, you know this, this family has to at least superficially accept Japanese bureaucracy and Japanese power. So his name is Hiroshi. And he's little. He doesn't, you know, everybody calls him Hiroshi at school. And he doesn't really understand this distinction between his in public name and his at home name until he's slightly older and he realizes that his parents are Koreans, they're not Japanese people. Later, you know, after he's reverted to his Korean name but experienced systematic discrimination in Japan, he realizes that the future for him is going to lie in America. And then he changes the name to make it easier. It's not actually explained in the book. I sort of. I kind of loved leaving this offstage. It's just all of a sudden he's going by Cirque, which to me, it was a little bit of a tribute to my own family's immigration story. My father explained to me once that his father, my grandfather, decided that our family name in English would be Choi because it's easy for people, English speakers to say, but you would not say my family name Choi in Korea.

[Interview Participant]

How would we say it?

[Susan Choi]

Well, I'm really bad at saying it, so I'm again going to butcher. Vowels are really important in the Korean language, which I don't speak, but have studied a little enough to understand that I'll never speak it. The name would be more like ch. It wouldn't be this oi sound like rhymes with joy, rhymes with boy. It would more be this vowel sound that it's hard to describe to English speakers, like exactly how it should be. I can't even do it right.

[Interview Participant]

I've heard people describe this book as a family story. Is it?

[Susan Choi]

I hope so. That's what I really wanted it to be. I wanted it to be a family story. I really, for a long time, only knew that it was about a family, a small family that gets even smaller due to a catastrophe. And I wanted to explore how they make it through that. And so I'm happy to hear it described that way.

[Alex Alison Stewart]

Before I let you go, we asked you to take part in our summer reading challenge. People could pick your book as one that was published in 2020, 2025. It could be Flashlight by Susan Choi, but you've chosen a couple of different books that You've wanted to perhaps read a classic you've been meaning to get to.

[Susan Choi]

Well, my choice was the Odyssey, translated by Daniel Mendelsohn. Now I have read the Odyssey, translated by other people, including the amazing Emily Wilson translation, Daniel Mendelsohn's translation. I'm so excited about it. I've heard him lecture about why he made this certain word choices he made. And I can't wait. It's in my pile of summer reading.

[Alex Alison Stewart]

All right, you also a book about or set in New York City. What are you thinking about?

[Susan Choi]

Well, I always say the Great Gatsby first because it's really my, one of my top, top favorite books and I reread it every few years, but it's fairly well known. So I want to mention a different book called the Ballad of Black Tom by Victor lavalle, which is just a great New York City book. It's amazing. I read it for the first time several years ago and started teaching it. Oh, this is, this is such a great book to teach students and it's such a great New York book.

[Alex Alison Stewart]

A memoir or biography?

[Susan Choi]

I loved Margo Jefferson's Negroland, which I read for the first time recently, but it actually came out about 10 years ago. And I just, I loved, I loved everything that she had to say about growing up in the so called black bourgeoisie. I also like, loved that it gave me a different Midwest. I grew up in northern Indiana and she's from the Chicago area and it was just a very different Chicago than mine. So I loved that about it.

[Interview Participant]

A debut novel.

[Susan Choi]

I loved this very riveting debut novel called Good Girl by Aria Eber. That's about a young woman making her way through the Berlin rave scene. Except that now my youngest child is moving to Berlin for college and I am frightened. But it was a wonderful book and.

[Interview Participant]

A book published in 2025. Aside from your own.

[Susan Choi]

Aside from my own, I have to highly, highly recommend Barbara Demick's new book, Daughters of the Bamboo Grove. She wrote a book about North Korea that was indispensable to me and one of the most moving works of reportage. And this book focuses on China international adoption. It's incredible.

[Interview Participant]

My guest has been Susan Choi. You could pick her book for our book in 2025. It's called Flashlight. Thank you for being with us.

[Susan Choi]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Interview Participant]

And that is all of it. I'm Alison Stewart. I appreciate you listening and I appreciate you. I'll meet you back here next time.

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