Podcast Summary: Tananarive Due on 'The Reformatory' (Get Lit, All Of It, WNYC)

Date: March 1, 2024
Host: Matt Katz (in for Alison Stewart)
Guest: Tananarive Due (author of The Reformatory)
Interviewer: Jordan Loff (Book Producer)

Episode Overview

This episode of All Of It centers on acclaimed author Tananarive Due and her novel The Reformatory, inspired by the tragic history of her great-uncle, Robert Stevens, and the infamous Dozier School for Boys in Florida. The interview was part of the Get Lit book club’s live event, providing listeners with both literary insight and a deeper understanding of the historical traumas explored in the novel. Jordan Loff leads the conversation through topics of family legacy, trauma, the supernatural, and the ongoing realities of racial injustice in America.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origin & Inspiration for The Reformatory

• Personal Grief & Discovery

  • Due learned of her great-uncle Robert Stevens—who died at Dozier—in the aftermath of her mother’s death, receiving a call from state officials about possible family remains at the school.
  • “I had never heard of Robert Stevens. ...I decided almost immediately that I had to write a book.” (02:05, Tananarive Due)

• Naming and Honoring Legacy

  • The protagonist shares the exact name as Due’s great-uncle, honoring a memory that the family had long repressed due to trauma.
  • “I wanted to honor his memory. ...I think what just happened is that the trauma was so great ...they just kind of cemented over it.” (03:30, Tananarive Due)

2. Historical Harshness: Reality Informs Fiction

• Research and Survivor Testimonies

  • Due visited the Dozier School, spoke to survivors, and incorporated real-life accounts of brutal punishment, such as the “whipping shed” known as the White House.
  • “The physician literally had to remove fabric from the wounds in his back. That's how deeply they were cutting their skin with these beatings in this shed.” (05:08, Tananarive Due)

• Portraying Graphic Violence

  • The novel does not shy away from violence; Due describes her intention to confront readers with these realities to spotlight what children endured.
  • “It's during that scene that Robert is...being lashed in the real, that he first realizes that these Haints are here.” (06:17, Tananarive Due)

3. The Supernatural: Ghosts as Narrative and Healing

• Integration of Ghosts ('Haints')

  • Ghosts were always part of the narrative, but the idea of making “Blue” a ghost crystallized midway through writing, at her agent’s suggestion.
  • “It turned out not that many [changes], because he was sneaking around...it was as if I knew on one level that Blue was supposed to be a ghost, but I hadn't discovered it yet.” (10:22, Tananarive Due)

• Children’s Sensitivity to Spirits

  • Only the children can truly see the Haints, which Due connects to the power of childish wonder and openness before adulthood closes off such perceptions.
  • “...younger children are still sort of in touch with their spirit selves in a slightly different way. ...as children, we like to draw...so what happens to that?” (12:14, Tananarive Due)

4. Characterization: Robert, Gloria, and Haddock

• Robert’s Name & Personal Transformation

  • Robert chooses to abandon his childhood nickname, “Robbie,” to survive in the reformatory, signaling his forced maturity.
  • “He did not want to be perceived as weak...he understood he was going to have to grow up. He was going to have to grow up at this place.” (08:07, Tananarive Due)

• Gloria’s Role & Family Inspiration

  • The sibling dynamic mirrors Due’s own family history; Gloria is inspired by Due’s mother and serves as her brother’s advocate.
  • “Her middle name was Gloria and she was my North Star...” (15:18, Tananarive Due)

• Superintendent Haddock as Institutional Evil

  • Haddock is a composite character, representing systemic evil rather than an individual villain; the true “monster” is the Jim Crow era and institutionalized racism.
  • “I wanted Haddock to be a composite ...not the only problem, but someone who ...is common not just at Dozier but [in] so many institutions.” (17:22, Tananarive Due)

5. Thematic Depth: Trauma, Incarceration & Social Critique

• Lingering Effects of Injustice

  • The book is a conversation with both past and present—linking historical abuses to modern mass incarceration and the school-to-prison pipeline.
  • “Jim Crow as the monster of the story. I wanted it to be about our current mass incarceration system and parents who ...are dealing with juvenile justice.” (03:30, Tananarive Due)

• Transformation by Abuse of Power

  • Staff and authorities are also warped by the system, highlighting how power and dehumanization corrupt even the well-meaning.
  • “No one stays nice...it's the mindset, us and them, that emerges in these kind of power differential situations...” (19:25, Tananarive Due)

6. Reader & Survivor Responses

• Impact on Dozier Survivors

  • The book resonated deeply with survivors—both Black and white—spanning generations, giving voice to the silenced and traumatized.
  • “Two survivors, one who had read the book and one who had not...both of whom felt seen by the fact that this book had been written...” (21:07, Tananarive Due)

• Emotional Toll of Telling the Story

  • The emotional toll of researching and writing the novel was immense—Due notes it took seven years to complete, given the weight of the subject.
  • “The experiences in both cases were heart shattering...the evil of the multi generational terror against children just was overwhelming.” (21:07, Tananarive Due)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On discovering her family’s hidden history:

  • “I decided almost immediately that I had to write a book.” (02:05, Tananarive Due)

• On graphic violence and hope:

  • “I apologize, first of all, for those details...he first realizes that these Haints are here…it’s a way to sort of elevate himself out of a horrific moment and find...something to hang on to.” (06:17, Tananarive Due)

• On childlike perception and the supernatural:

  • “I wanted that to be kind of a parallel. Like while you have that childish sense of wonder...I wanted to capture that, but in a literal way.” (12:14, Tananarive Due)

• On legacy and activism:

  • “She was the first superhero. My parents were both the first superheroes in my life.” (15:18, Tananarive Due)

• On survivors’ gratitude and devastation:

  • “Both of whom felt seen by the fact that this book had been written...just the evil of the multi generational terror against children just was overwhelming.” (21:07, Tananarive Due)

Key Timestamps

• [02:05] — On learning her great-uncle’s story and the genesis of the novel
• [03:30] — On naming the protagonist after her great-uncle; broader themes of mass incarceration
• [05:08] — Real survivor accounts of brutality at Dozier; how it influenced the novel’s realism
• [06:17] — Importance of depicting violence truthfully; using haints as portals to hope and perspective
• [08:07] — Robert’s transformation from “Robbie” and the question of forced maturity
• [10:22] — Discovery that Blue would become a ghost and her philosophy on writing the supernatural
• [12:14] — Children’s unique connection to spirits and sense of wonder
• [15:18] — Inspiration behind Gloria; family, activism, and advocacy
• [17:22] — Superintendent Haddock as composite for institutional evil
• [19:25] — How institutions corrupt even decent people; power and dehumanization
• [21:07] — Encounters with Dozier survivors; emotional weight and validation

Conclusion

This episode offers a poignant and unflinching look at the intersection of historical trauma and speculative fiction. Tananarive Due’s personal connection, historical research, and creative prowess combine to produce a novel that is both a memorial and a clarion call—connecting past injustices to present crises. The conversation delves deeply into the psychological and social impact of systemic abuse, the enduring wounds of racism, and the transformative, even redemptive, power of storytelling.