Podcast Summary: All Of It with Alison Stewart
Episode: The Comic Book History of the Cocktail
Date: October 1, 2025
Host: Alison Stewart (A)
Guest: Dave Wondrich (B), with listener questions and occasional guest commentator (“D”)
Overview
In this episode, host Alison Stewart welcomes Dave Wondrich—James Beard Award-winning cocktail historian and author—to discuss his latest work: The Comic Book History of the Cocktail: Five Centuries of Mixing Drinks and Carrying On. The discussion delves into the historical and cultural evolution of cocktails, the creative process behind turning that history into graphic novel form, the role of notable bartenders, and listener questions about cocktail traditions, recipes, and trends. The episode vibrantly mixes deep historical insight with accessible, practical advice for home bartenders and cocktail enthusiasts.
Key Discussion Points and Insights
1. Origins and Concept of the Graphic Book
- Genesis of the Book:
- Dave kept a list of book ideas and was approached by Ten Speed Press to turn cocktail history into a graphic book. The idea was to cover the "whole history of the cocktail business from another direction."
“This seemed like the perfect chance...to go into a different field and try to come at the whole history of the cocktail business from another direction.” (B, 02:13)
- Dave kept a list of book ideas and was approached by Ten Speed Press to turn cocktail history into a graphic book. The idea was to cover the "whole history of the cocktail business from another direction."
- Graphic Format:
- The book blends “serious history” and comic visuals—complete with footnotes and skits—making historical bartenders and forgotten figures come alive.
“It’s got footnotes, it’s got all that kind of stuff, but at the same time, it’s a graphic one. We get to bring people out of the shadows and show you their pictures.” (B, 02:40)
- The book blends “serious history” and comic visuals—complete with footnotes and skits—making historical bartenders and forgotten figures come alive.
- Collaboration with Illustrator Dean Kotz:
- Wondrich describes an interactive creative process; he would outline scene ideas, which Kotz would interpret with dynamic sketches. Accuracy of historical likeness was prioritized, as many figures had never been visually represented.
“I wanted people to look like themselves...because for many of these people, this is the first time they’ve ever been pictured in a book.” (B, 03:26)
- Wondrich describes an interactive creative process; he would outline scene ideas, which Kotz would interpret with dynamic sketches. Accuracy of historical likeness was prioritized, as many figures had never been visually represented.
2. Uncovering Forgotten Bartenders and Origins of Drinks
- Raymond Ching and the Zombie:
- As an example, Wondrich highlights Raymond Ching—bartender at Don the Beachcomber—who helped popularize the Zombie cocktail, even selling it at the New York World’s Fair.
“In New York, he sold [the Zombie] to the point where they were selling them even at the New York World's Fair—these huge tall drinks full of liquor.” (B, 04:13)
- As an example, Wondrich highlights Raymond Ching—bartender at Don the Beachcomber—who helped popularize the Zombie cocktail, even selling it at the New York World’s Fair.
3. Cocktail Myths and Evolving Traditions
- The Old Fashioned – Muddled Fruit Debate (Listener Question at 05:02):
- Historically, the Old Fashioned was simple—bitters, sugar, booze, ice. Muddling fruit is a 20th-century adaptation, and both versions are “perfectly legitimate.”
“Over the past couple decades, we’ve kind of gone back to the origins of some of these drinks. And originally the Old Fashioned didn’t have any fruit muddled in it...during the 1930s, 1940s, the muddled fruit version came in. That was the novelty.” (B, 05:45)
- Wondrich and Dale DeGroff, legendary bartender, would “face off” with the different versions.
“He usually won, but not always, thank God.” (B, 06:11)
- Historically, the Old Fashioned was simple—bitters, sugar, booze, ice. Muddling fruit is a 20th-century adaptation, and both versions are “perfectly legitimate.”
4. Mint Julep – Evolution and African American Influence (06:29)
- Development:
- Mint julep started as rum, mint, sugar, water. In the pre-Civil War era, it was a high-class brandy drink garnished with a “forest of mint” and rum floater.
“It was a fancy drink...about 3 ounces of brandy on very fine crushed ice with a little sugar and mint just lightly pressed in it.” (B, 07:07)
- Mint julep started as rum, mint, sugar, water. In the pre-Civil War era, it was a high-class brandy drink garnished with a “forest of mint” and rum floater.
- Role of Black Bartenders:
- Both enslaved and free Black Americans were “the masters of this drink...real innovators.”
“They were the people who really had control of, of how this drink was made.” (B, 07:49)
- Both enslaved and free Black Americans were “the masters of this drink...real innovators.”
- Modern Specialist:
- Shoutout to Alba Huerta, renowned Houston mixologist, who specializes in the mint julep.
“She’s the modern specialist in mint juleps and just a wonderful person and just a great bartender.” (B, 08:19)
- Shoutout to Alba Huerta, renowned Houston mixologist, who specializes in the mint julep.
5. Listener Cocktails Q&A
- Sprucing Up Low-Shelf Bourbon:
- Old Fashioned or mix with lemonade (“instant whiskey sour”).
“You can also mix it...with Paul Newman lemonade...then you’ve got an instant whiskey sour.” (B, 09:25)
- Old Fashioned or mix with lemonade (“instant whiskey sour”).
- French 75 – Gin or Cognac?
- Originally gin, but Wondrich’s favorite is the cognac version, popular in New Orleans.
“It was originally a gin drink...But some people said French, it should have cognac in it. And, you know, my favorite version...is with cognac.” (B, 09:45)
- Originally gin, but Wondrich’s favorite is the cognac version, popular in New Orleans.
- Apricot Sour:
- Apricot brandy, lemon, sugar; recommends Portland bartender Jeffrey Morgenthaler’s version with bourbon to balance the sweetness.
“The best version is made by Portland bartender Jeffrey Morgenthaler and he adds a big slug of high proof bourbon in there...balances it.” (B, 10:31)
- Apricot brandy, lemon, sugar; recommends Portland bartender Jeffrey Morgenthaler’s version with bourbon to balance the sweetness.
6. Pioneers and Key Figures in Cocktail History
- Jerry Thomas – The 'Professor'
- First to author a cocktail book; vibrant personality; showman with pet white rats, a self-statue, art by Thomas Nast, and even a shooting gallery in his bar.
“He tended bar for a while with...pet white rats...He had a life size statue of him...caricatures...two stories high on the walls. Oh, and that bar had a shooting gallery also.” (B, 11:57, 12:05)
- First to author a cocktail book; vibrant personality; showman with pet white rats, a self-statue, art by Thomas Nast, and even a shooting gallery in his bar.
- Women in Bartending:
- Often overlooked, but women played major early roles, especially in England mixing punch—a precursor to cocktails.
“There were a lot at the very beginning, even before the cocktail itself...In England, it was the women who mixed the drinks. So they mixed all the punch.” (B, 13:43)
- Often overlooked, but women played major early roles, especially in England mixing punch—a precursor to cocktails.
7. Prohibition Myths and Authentic Speakeasies
- Dispelling Prohibition Myths:
- Most “great” drinks predated Prohibition; drinks of the era were often subpar due to poor ingredients.
“All the great drinks came out of prohibition and that’s simply not true. So I...show how really poor most of the drinks were.” (B, 12:41)
- Most “great” drinks predated Prohibition; drinks of the era were often subpar due to poor ingredients.
- Favorite Old-School Bar:
- Bill’s Gay 90s—a true 1890s time capsule—was his “glorious” favorite, though now closed.
“The best one closed a few years ago, unfortunately. That was Bill’s gay 90s, which was an absolute time capsule.” (B, 13:06)
- Bill’s Gay 90s—a true 1890s time capsule—was his “glorious” favorite, though now closed.
8. Modern Variations and Cocktail Culture
- Manhattan Variations:
- Examples include the Bedford (with Dubonnet), Red Hook, and other Amaro-based versions.
“You know, it’s easy to make, to spin out variations on these things, and if you have good knowledge of your ingredients, you can make things that are really tasty.” (B, 15:07)
- Examples include the Bedford (with Dubonnet), Red Hook, and other Amaro-based versions.
- No 'Sacrilege' in Mixing:
- On adding St. Germain to Manhattans: experimentation is encouraged.
“I don’t think you can really get to sacrilege in mixing drinks...A little splash of almost anything can go into a Manhattan and make it interesting.” (B, 14:27)
- On adding St. Germain to Manhattans: experimentation is encouraged.
- Special Occasion Drink:
- French 75 with real champagne and cognac.
“French 75s. I'll crack open some real champagne for that and I'll make the cognac version.” (B, 15:49)
- French 75 with real champagne and cognac.
9. Inclusivity and Selecting Who to Feature
- Selection Criteria:
- Most significant historical and modern bartenders included, with a focus on unsung heroes.
“I put in almost everybody I know in some of these chapters...in the early days, very few names came down to us. For the early days, I put in everybody.” (B, 16:11)
- Most significant historical and modern bartenders included, with a focus on unsung heroes.
- Key Names:
- Dale DeGroff (mentor), Ada Coleman (Savoy Bar), John Dabney (Richmond, VA, bought freedom through bartending), Jerry Thomas.
“John Dabney...made so much money in tips on his bartending that he was able to purchase his and his wife’s freedom.” (B, 16:57)
- Dale DeGroff (mentor), Ada Coleman (Savoy Bar), John Dabney (Richmond, VA, bought freedom through bartending), Jerry Thomas.
10. International and Modern Perspectives
- Cuban Influence:
- American mixology met tropical ingredients and culture; Cuba proved American drink principles worked globally, and “made very seductive bars.”
“Cuba was where American mixology met tropical ingredients...it kind of road tested the principles.” (B, 17:44)
- American mixology met tropical ingredients and culture; Cuba proved American drink principles worked globally, and “made very seductive bars.”
- Paris as a Cocktail Hub:
- Early American bars abroad, especially pre-WWI.
- 1990s Resurgence:
- Return to balanced drinks, quality ingredients, and rediscovery of lost recipes.
“We’d lost some of the deliciousness...This book isn’t here to say you’re a bad person, but...show you some of the alternatives.” (B, 18:36)
- Return to balanced drinks, quality ingredients, and rediscovery of lost recipes.
- State of Cocktail Culture (2025):
- Post-pandemic, the field is “transitioning”—newcomers are reconnecting to traditions, education, and career seriousness.
“Right now, it’s kind of transitioning...people who came in are starting to reconnect with the traditions of the bar and get serious about the career.” (B, 19:17)
- Post-pandemic, the field is “transitioning”—newcomers are reconnecting to traditions, education, and career seriousness.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- On Cocktail History Approach:
“The history of the cocktail is a mixture stirred together from hefty slugs of stories...spiked with...dashes of the history of distilled spirits.” (A, 00:34; quoting Wondrich)
- On Bar Showmanship:
"He tended bar...with his matched pair of pet white rats on his shoulders...caricatures...two stories high...bar had a shooting gallery." (B, 11:57)
- On Experimenting:
“I don’t think you can really get to sacrilege in mixing drinks...A little splash of almost anything can go into a Manhattan and make it interesting.” (B, 14:27)
- On Cultural Heritage:
“Blacks of color...were real innovators. They were some of the most famous American bartenders at the time.” (B, 07:42)
- On Modern Cocktail Culture:
“Drink what you like. This book isn’t here to say you’re a bad person, but it’s here to show you some of the alternatives.” (B, 18:52)
Timestamps for Important Segments
- [01:39] — How the graphic book came about
- [03:04] — Collaboration with artist Dean Kotz
- [03:45] — Story of Raymond Ching and the Zombie
- [05:02] — Listener Q: Old Fashioned—muddled or not?
- [06:29] — History of the mint julep and Black mixologists
- [09:16] — Listener Q: Making low-shelf bourbon interesting
- [09:33] — Listener Q: French 75—gin or cognac?
- [10:11] — Listener Q: Apricot sour history and recipe
- [11:06] — Jerry Thomas, first cocktail book
- [12:41] — Prohibition myths and best speakeasies
- [13:36] — Women in bartending history
- [14:18] — Modern twists on Manhattans and what counts as a “sacrilege”
- [15:43] — Special occasion cocktails
- [16:57] — Key figures chosen for the book
- [17:40] — Cuba and Paris in cocktail history
- [18:21] — 1990s cocktail resurgence
- [19:17] — State of cocktail culture in 2025
Final Thoughts
This episode combines a sweep through cocktail history with passionate storytelling, practical advice, and cultural insight, all presented through the distinctive lens of Dave Wondrich’s new graphic book. The conversation offers a tribute to both the artistry and the forgotten labor behind cocktail canon, while encouraging experimentation and respect for traditions old and new.