Phil Lord (4:03)

Hi.

Alison Stewart (4:04)

And Chris Miller. Hi, Chris.

Chris Miller (4:05)

Hello.

Alison Stewart (4:06)

So what do you admire the most about the original novel by Andy Weir? I'll have you go. Who wants to go first?

Chris Miller (4:13)

Oh, Chris. Well, we read the manuscript when Ryan Gosling called us up and it was thrilling. It was full of like wonder and awe and spectacle, but at its heart were these very small, intimate relationships. And it was really about like how in order to save the world, you needed to make a friend. And so even though it was about an apocalyptic event, it was really optimistic and hopeful and emotional and funny. It had all the things that you want in a story.

Phil Lord (4:48)

A sweet, funny movie about the end of the world that works.

Alison Stewart (4:53)

When Ryan Gosling, he had the rights to the book Hail Mary project.

Interviewer (4:58)

Hail Mary.

Alison Stewart (4:59)

What becomes possible for you as directors when you have Ryan Gosling attached to the script?

Phil Lord (5:06)

I mean, he's, this is Phil, he's done so he has so many different moves and you know, and you see them in each of his films. He's trying something new. And so you, you need somebody with that breadth of experience for a story where he has to be terrified, he has to be bashful, he has to form this Relationship with a rock.

Alison Stewart (5:34)

We'll get to the rock in a minute.

Phil Lord (5:35)

And so you get to have. Yeah, so you get to have all of those Ryan Gosling moves in a single movie. It's an incredible value.

Chris Miller (5:42)

Right. You need someone who can command the screen as the only human being on screen for two thirds of the movie.

Alison Stewart (5:50)

Yes, yes. When was a moment during filming when you knew that Ryan was the right person for this role?

Chris Miller (5:58)

Oh, man, we knew it before we started filming, you know, because he's so thoughtful and so creative. He sweats all the details, like us.

Alison Stewart (6:07)

Oh, interesting.

Chris Miller (6:07)

And, you know, when it came to details of his costume or just scene by scene, he was. He was really thoughtful about, like, how he saw the character. He had fallen in love with the book as well, and. And what would make the most engaging story. So we knew, like, in development, that we were. We had a great partner, and he's

Phil Lord (6:27)

such a playful actor. You know, we had auditions for all the best puppeteers in the world to play an alien friend that he makes. And watching him be so nimble and responsive to these different performers and their energy, you know, let us know that on set we were going to be in great shape.

Alison Stewart (6:50)

Oh, that's very interesting. You know, the movie moves back and forth between Grace's life on Earth and his time in space. Why did you think that was important? To communicate about who Grace was before the mission.

Phil Lord (7:04)

So the movie takes place in two different time periods as Ryan is waking up in space and remembering the events that led him to be there. And that could have been disjointed, but the way Andy structured his book and Drew structured our screenplay, it's really a character study that happens in a quite linear way about somebody who's afraid to connect with folks. And slowly, over the relationships and friendships he makes in the movie, becomes a person strong enough and open enough to make the friendship that is going to save the galaxy.

Alison Stewart (7:44)

Yeah. You realize in the beginning he does not want to be there. He does not want to be there. We're just going to leave it for people who haven't read the book.

Phil Lord (7:51)

Yes.

Alison Stewart (7:53)

But the thing that's sort of sad initially is he doesn't think of himself as brave.

Chris Miller (7:57)

Right.

Phil Lord (7:57)

Yeah.

Chris Miller (7:57)

Well, I think, you know, it's hard for me to relate to a character who, from the jump is like, I'll drive into that burning building and save those kittens and has no fear, no vulnerabilities, no weaknesses. And so that's why I think he's a very relatable character because he Starts his movie. He is, you know, he is scared. He doesn't want. Doesn't want to do the job. He's. And he's full of fear and anxiety. And on earth, he's also a character who has, like, social anxiety and sort of has to be pulled into it. And I think bravery to me isn't about not being afraid of something. It's about being afraid and then doing it anyway.

Alison Stewart (8:41)

When was the last time you had to be brave about something?

Chris Miller (8:44)

Ever since I've had kids, it's a daily thing.

Alison Stewart (8:49)

How about for you, Phil? When was the last time you really had to be brave?

Phil Lord (8:52)

Oh, gosh. Anytime we make a public appearance in any way, I know we look like or we sound like 6 foot 2 Adonises just throwing touchdowns everywhere we go. But we may suffer from social anxiety ourselves. I'm an inside cat, and somehow this job keeps putting me outside.

Alison Stewart (9:14)

We like inside cats.

Chris Miller (9:15)

It's okay.

Alison Stewart (9:16)

You're public radio.

Phil Lord (9:17)

I'm taking place.

Chris Miller (9:19)

This is more our speed.

Alison Stewart (9:21)

We're discussing the new film Project Hail Mary with co directors Phil Lord and Chris Miller. The movie stars Ryan Gosling as a man whose mission is to save humanity as well as his friendly alien friend. Project Hail Mary hits theaters on Friday. Andy Weir's novels are known for their scientific details and accuracy. How did you convey the science in a way that was accessible to audiences? Because, you know. Accessibility.

Phil Lord (9:49)

Yeah. So the book is written in the first person, and Ryan's character narrates all of the science that takes, you know, that. That. That happens throughout the book. So we. We approached it like it was a heist film. So one of our favorite movies is an old franchise film called Refifi, in which, for some reason, it's riveting to watch five men drill a hole in the floor for 20 minutes. And I think the reason is it's really fun to watch people do a job well on screen. And Ryan said, you know, I am not a molecular biologist, but I can play engagement. And so that's a big part of it, is he's interested in it. So we are.

Chris Miller (10:36)

Right. And thankfully, having, you know, one great thing is having Andy Weir as a producer on the movie meant that he was around and made sure that our science was accurate, that we were doing. And Drew Goddard, who wrote the screenplay, is great at, like, condensing concepts that are complicated into digestible, entertaining little nuggets.

Alison Stewart (10:56)

Yeah, Andy's. We've had Andy on, I think, for Project Hail Mary, and he's a great interview.

Phil Lord (11:01)

He really is. He's got an awfully high EQ for somebody who came to light as a coder, who wrote his own novel on his computer in the dark.

Alison Stewart (11:14)

So many space stories like this one can be really scary. They can be very serious. And this has very tense moments in it. But there's a real sense of humor to it, and there's a real warmth to it. Why was warmth important in this film?

Chris Miller (11:29)

Well, you know, it's a movie about friendship and about communication and empathy. And the book is funny, even though it is about, you know, these serious subjects. And to us, you know, we. We don't really try to think about genres, boxes, labels to stick something into where, you know, our favorite dramas make you laugh and our favorite comedies make you cry. And so we wanted to, you know, have the movie, have moments of levity, have moments that make you cry and have you on the edge of your seat. And we had a great partner in Ryan, who is a very funny guy. And it's sort of our. We wouldn't have been interested in making the movie if it didn't have. Didn't have a sense of humor.

Phil Lord (12:13)

And I think that, you know, in this moment, it feels punk rock to make an affirming movie that means the audience. Well, you know, Ryan is going through really difficult things in the. In the movie, but the movie itself has a way of letting you know that he's gonna be okay and that we're rooting for him. And. And even right down to the soundtrack, you know, we have this great composer, Daniel Pemberton. Our first conversation was, he's not alone. The whole planet is rooting for him. So let's hear the voices and claps and stomps of, like, a thousand people.

Interviewer (12:53)

That's so interesting because we just got a text from one of our listeners that said, hi, Alison and team. I went to a screening of Project Hail Mary this weekend, and I have to say, the casting and music choices were fantastic. What was Miller and Lord's approach to the music?

Chris Miller (13:06)

There you go. Well, we wanted it to feel like a mixtape from planet Earth. So a lot of the needle drops are from. You know, there's like, a Maori farewell song. There's this Mercedes Sosa song called Gracias a la Vida. We have music from all around the world in it. And the score, as Phil said, from Daniel Pemberton, has a large choral element and a very human feeling thing that we wanted just to feel like all of Earth was with him.

Phil Lord (13:30)

And Ryan starts the movie as a teacher. So Daniel brought in a whole Class full of kids to clap and stomp and make the percussion for, like, the climactic action sequence. Like, the kids were still part of his consciousness.

Interviewer (13:50)

We are discussing the film project Hail Mary with its co directors, Phil Lloyd and Chris Miller. Let's talk about his co star, Rocky.

Phil Lord (13:58)

Yes.

Interviewer (13:58)

So Rocky is out to save his own planet. They meet cute, as they say.

Phil Lord (14:04)

Yes, meet very cute.

Interviewer (14:06)

And Rocky is an actual puppet.

Chris Miller (14:09)

That's correct.

Interviewer (14:09)

And it is. The puppeteer is James Ortiz, who a lot of people in New York know from the theater world. He's really big. He also voiced Rocky.

Chris Miller (14:17)

That's correct.

Interviewer (14:19)

Why did you decide to go with the puppet?

Chris Miller (14:21)

Well, the whole movie hinges on the chemistry between these two characters and their relationship. And if it was Ryan talking to a tennis ball on a stick and imagining conversations, it wouldn't have had the same back and forth we had having James and his team. We call them the Rocketeers. It took five people to operate the puppet there meant that they could have moments of spontaneity back and forth, they could improvise with each other, and we could really capture it. At the end of the day, it ended up being about 50, 50 animation and puppetry, but it was a perfect blend. So much that you couldn't know which shots are which. But there was always James and the puppet on set so that we got these real moments with Ryan.

Phil Lord (15:04)

Yeah, the chemistry with Ryan can't be faked. You know, you can't do that in post.

Alison Stewart (15:10)

I like the idea of improvisation with him.

Chris Miller (15:12)

Oh, my God, it was so much improvisation.

Phil Lord (15:14)

The hardest thing to do in a movie like this, requires so much planning, is to make sure that the process accommodates spontaneity. Right.

Alison Stewart (15:23)

That's interesting. Oh, that's very interesting. You know what? That leads me to a question I ask a lot of directors. I'm going out of order here, but a lot of directors, they say my job is just to make choices. From the minute you get on the set to the minute you go to sleep and you get up, there's a

Chris Miller (15:37)

lot of decisions that get made.

Alison Stewart (15:39)

What was a tough decision for you to make on this movie?

Chris Miller (15:42)

Oh, I mean, like, there was a lot of choices in. How do you condense a book that's 16 hour audiobook.

Phil Lord (15:52)

I went to the same place.

Chris Miller (15:53)

Like, and like, it means killing some dogs.

Alison Stewart (15:56)

That way you work well together.

Phil Lord (15:58)

Yes, in the book. So in the book, there's this sequence where they blow up Antarctica to slowly. To, like, stave off the Earth's destruction.

Chris Miller (16:08)

Yeah. To, like, slow the global cooling. That's happening.

Phil Lord (16:10)

And we were really fired up to do it. We just didn't want to be part of the relationship story with Rocky.

Chris Miller (16:18)

Right. There's certain things that you love that have to go to make it in

Phil Lord (16:21)

the size of a movie, and you keep it. The main thing. The main thing, like everything you're doing on set and in post is about making sure that. That. That the relationship story is at the center.

Chris Miller (16:32)

And there's a second relationship story that's on Earth that's between Ryan's character and Ava Stratt, played by the amazing Sandra Houler. And that was sort of the main core relationship of the Earth story that we really. We really leaned into on that.

Alison Stewart (16:47)

We'll talk more about it after a quick break. This is all of it. You're listening to all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. We're discussing the new film project Hail Mary with co directors Phil Lord and Chris Miller. The movie stars Ryan Gosling as a man on a mission to save humanity alongside a friendly alien. Project Hail Mary is in theaters this Friday. I want to talk about Rocky just a little bit more. How many versions of Rocky did you have to see before you gave it a thumbs up, thumbs down?

Phil Lord (17:26)

Oh, gosh, like hundreds. Hundreds. For a year and a half, we designed this little guy.

Chris Miller (17:31)

We worked with Neil Scanlan in the Creature Shop over in London, and they are experts in designing aliens. And we spent a long, long time, like, with many variations of, like, a rock creature with five legs and no face and trying to get something that felt appealing. And once we finally got the size relationship right, then we went to all this detail about the carvings on his body and the. And what each facet of his carapace looked like. And it took a long, long time. But because of it, he's an appealing character, and you fall in love with him.

Alison Stewart (18:06)

How did you decide on his voice, on James Ortiz's voice?

Phil Lord (18:10)

So James came in for an audition with Ryan. They were excellent together. Our casting director, Jeannie McCarthy, when James left the room, said, I told you so. Because she told us, like, six months before. I was like, it's gonna be James Ortiz. And so, you know, he just. While we were shooting, he was. We. He was part of the process of developing Rocky. And when we're on stage and we're shooting, it just. There's this thing that happens. Like, you can't get them out of your head. So when you start imagining other voices, it just doesn't feel right. And then the thing, you know, in animation, you say, you know, you never trace a drawing. It will take the life out of it. And the truth is, like, James was rocky and anything we did on top of it just didn't feel right.

Interviewer (19:03)

You built practical sets for the elements of the spaceship. We were talking off mic that, you know, I've been on sets that they

Alison Stewart (19:09)

kind of look fake up close.

Interviewer (19:10)

They look great on the screen, but they look great.

Phil Lord (19:12)

A little bit blurry.

Alison Stewart (19:15)

Exactly. But you said that your set was very different.

Chris Miller (19:19)

Yes, very, very real. We had an amazing production designer, Charlie Wood, and his team, and they were psychopaths about making this interior of the spaceship and exterior look as real as possible. And they were sourcing stuff from aeronautics companies. And it was so real and it was 360. You really felt like you were inside of a spaceship. It was crazy.

Interviewer (19:43)

What was the hardest thing to figure out how to build?

Chris Miller (19:47)

Oh,

Phil Lord (19:49)

what wasn't hard, you know? So we built this whole spaceship. The spaceship itself has two different gravitational orientations. So that means that, like, if you're standing on the ground, there's like a. Like a desk and chairs coming out of the wall. So every set had to be taken apart and then put back together on its side for the scenes in which the gravity was on the wall.

Chris Miller (20:16)

But a big. A lot of the movie takes place in this tunnel between Rocky's ship and Grace's ship. And we built this tunnel that was going to be semi translucent, which, when they were spinning their ships together so they had gravity, centrifugal gravity, that meant the light around the exterior of the tunnel was going to spin. So we had to build this light array around the tunnel.

Phil Lord (20:43)

So there's a set that's a tunnel that's like the length of the longest stage on the lot. And around the tunnel there are lights all the way around, like 360 degrees that turn off and on to create the sense of it spinning. Then there is this glass membrane wall built out of, like, molded plastic. And, you know, it reflects cameras and lights and all of these things. It's unbelievably inconvenient to shoot through.

Chris Miller (21:16)

Took so much power for the lights, we had to, like, steal power from the neighboring stages across the street and build a bridge over with a bunch of wires just to light the scene. It was a massive undertaking.

Phil Lord (21:27)

We were like the rats of Nim stealing power from the farmer.

Alison Stewart (21:30)

They're like, oh, God. Project Hail Mary, guys.

Interviewer (21:33)

Here they come again.

Phil Lord (21:34)

The lights are going, oh, boy. Luckily, that was also our stage.

Alison Stewart (21:39)

I did want to ask you About Sandra Huller, who most people remember from Anatomy of a Fall. She plays this amazing scientist on the ground. There's so much going on behind her face. Why was she the right person to play that role?

Phil Lord (21:54)

First of all, anytime anyone talks about Sandra, just. They just start, like, shaking their heads like, I can't believe she exists, you know, and she just has so much versatility. We didn't remember it when we started talking about her, but she's in this movie called Tony Erdman, where she's hysterical.

Chris Miller (22:16)

That's true. And not just Anatomy of a Fall Zone of interest, all these wonderful films. She's got as much range as Ryan, and the two of them together, like, really admired each other, and they. And they really wanted to do a good job for each other, but she has so much nuance. And that part could have been played just sort of stereotypically like. Like an ice queen. But she brought all this warmth and humanity to a person who has to make tough decisions, you know, to try and save the world.

Alison Stewart (22:46)

And she does a great karaoke scene. The Son of Times with Harry Styles.

Chris Miller (22:51)

That's right.

Alison Stewart (22:51)

I'll just leave it there. People have to see the film. I understand you watched the movie so many times to get to the final cut. That was an evil laugh. What were you looking for in those screenings?

Phil Lord (23:06)

Well, the most interesting ones are when you put it in front of an audience. So at this point, by the time we locked the cut, we'd seen it with an audience something like 15 times, whether it was, like, pile a bunch of people into the edit suite or, you know, formal test screenings where you've got hundreds and hundreds of people there. But we. We road test a lot, and. And it's less about the feedback that they write down and more about the feeling in the room with all the other chickens that you have watching them and experiencing the film with them. That's part of it.

Chris Miller (23:38)

You can feel when people are engaged, and you can feel when people are checked out. And so you try to. You try to. Oh, we were losing. We're losing their interest or checking their watches, are shifting in their seats. All right, something is not working here. You know, we find out what's confusing. And, you know, with all the science, you want to make sure that you're just giving just enough to make it not confusing, but also not like a lecture hall.

Phil Lord (24:01)

You're also looking for those moments that give you goosebumps.

Chris Miller (24:03)

Right.

Phil Lord (24:04)

And the thing that's so beautiful watching movies in a group is that you're all feeling the Same thing at the same time. And you can feel your mirror neurons are firing and you're imagining what everyone around you is experiencing while you imagine what the characters on the screen are experiencing. So it's this like empathy workout that happens in the theater.

Interviewer (24:27)

Well, when you were thinking about making this movie about countries working together to follow to thwart an existential crisis, you had to think about climate change. I have to imagine.

Phil Lord (24:38)

I mean, it's never a bad time to tell a story about what we are capable of when we work together and imagine that difficult things are possible. That's what I love about Andy's work is like problems can be solved. They're not just like, you don't just need like Superman to show up.

Chris Miller (25:01)

Right. We read this manuscript in the 2020, in the Heart of the Pandemic, when it was like things felt really hard and maybe impossible. And this was a, this was a book that was sort of saying like, hey, if we can communicate and work together on things, we can solve problems.

Phil Lord (25:19)

Especially when we feel the urgency collectively. We were working on a movie, everything shut down. The pandemic. A week later there was something called Zoom and we were all on it and we never skipped a beat, right?

Interviewer (25:32)

Yeah.

Phil Lord (25:32)

And so I think a lot of the things, to me, it bothers me when problems are presented as impossible to solve because we just. There's too much evidence to the contrary.

Interviewer (25:45)

The name of the movie is Project Hail Mary. It's hitting theaters this Friday. My son loved it, by the way.

Chris Miller (25:52)

Oh, nice. Excellent taste.

Interviewer (25:54)

17 year old boy.

Chris Miller (25:55)

That's what you want?

Phil Lord (25:56)

Yeah, that's great. But we wanted a movie that played eight to 80. So he's right in the pocket.

Chris Miller (26:01)

I would say 88 even.

Phil Lord (26:02)

Yeah, sure, 88.

Interviewer (26:04)

Let's go with 88.

Chris Miller (26:04)

Let's go. It's got another eight in there.

Interviewer (26:06)

We've been talking to co directors Phil Lord and Chris Miller. Thanks for being with us.

Chris Miller (26:09)

Our pleasure.

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