Podcast Summary: All Of It — "The Future of Outdoor Dining in New York"

Host: Alison Stewart (WNYC)
Guest: Ryan Kailoth, Reporter at WNYC and Gothamist
Date: August 7, 2024
Episode Theme:
This episode takes an in-depth look at the rapidly shifting landscape of outdoor dining in New York City. With the expiration of COVID-era emergency measures, the city has set new regulations and a deadline (August 3, 2024) for restaurants to apply for outdoor dining permits or face removal of their setups. Alison Stewart and guest Ryan Kailoth explore how these rules impact restaurant owners, workers, city residents, and the broader culture of public space in NYC.

Main Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Shift from Temporary to Permanent Outdoor Dining (01:37–05:40)

• Context: During the pandemic, emergency regulations allowed restaurants to build flexible outdoor structures—dubbed “sheds”—as a lifeline when indoor dining shut down.
• Pre-pandemic: Outdoor dining was limited and expensive due to strict city zoning and landmark rules, with only about 1,200 establishments participating (03:38).
• Pandemic era boom: With deregulation, the number of outdoor dining setups exploded to 12,000–13,000 citywide, providing a financial buffer for struggling small restaurants (03:38–04:49).
• Ryan Kailoth:

  "This was a lifeline not just for the restaurants that needed to survive during COVID but also for the business model of that small restaurant in New York City...that extra revenue...really saved a lot of these restaurants." (05:02)

2. Introduction of New Regulations (05:40–07:30)

• Why change?: As the pandemic emergency ended, unregulated sheds led to complaints: rats, sanitation, obstruction, and aesthetics.
• City’s rationale: New guidelines aim to make outdoor dining "more sanitary, more uniform and aesthetically pleasing." (01:37–01:58)
• The new program imposes rules on structure size, placement, seasonality (roadway sheds must be removed for 5 months), and aesthetics.
• Regulatory oversight moves to the Department of Transportation (DOT).

3. The Application Process: Challenges & Numbers (08:41–11:10)

• Process: Restaurants must now apply through a city website or a detailed PDF; many found the system confusing and cumbersome.
  • Ryan Kailoth jokes:

    "That website is a lot like a video game, but the most boring, worst one I've ever played." (09:04)

• Adoption and scale:
  • Pre-pandemic sidewalk permits: ~1,200
  • Pandemic peak: 12,000–13,000 outdoor setups
  • Under new rules: Only around 2,600–3,000 applications filed; expected to drop around 80% from the pandemic peak (09:41–10:14).
• Some areas' uptake will become clearer with a forthcoming public map of approved locations.

4. The Impact on Small Businesses (17:35–18:37)

• Financial strain: Costs for deconstructing, storing, and rebuilding compliant sheds are significant (~$10,000 and up, plus storage fees). (15:30–15:51)
• Rent & revenue: For many, the loss of outdoor seating upends business models. Some, like Mama Fox in Bed-Stuy, have closed outright:
  • Kailoth:

    "With the loss of, I think it was about half her seating this past Saturday, she closed her business down." (17:35)

• Larger restaurant groups: Well-capitalized operators can absorb the new costs; smaller, independent businesses are at risk.

5. Worker & Community Experiences (18:37–22:37)

• Workers see hours and jobs cut as sheds disappear and seating shrinks:
  • Kailoth, citing Cafe Gitane's manager:

    "They've had to lay off staff, reduce other people's hours, cut positions, not fill empty positions. ... She described it as a death at the restaurant." (18:39)

• Mixed calls and texts from listeners reflect the city’s debate:
  • Some applaud the end of street-blocking sheds (Howard from Sheepshead Bay, 13:13).
  • Others, including a builder of outdoor structures, appreciate reasonable regulation but want flexibility for businesses to innovate.
• Accessibility and safety: Concerns about blocked sidewalks, endangering wheelchair users and cyclists, and obstructed sightlines at corners.

6. Balancing Public and Private Use of Public Space (13:54–14:33)

• Some callers argue sheds set a precedent for private companies taking over public space; others counter that regulated outdoor terraces are common elsewhere (Madrid, Paris) and work well.
• Anna from Manhattan:

  "I personally think all of those outdoor sheds need to go right now. … During the lockdown, it was fantastic. … But they’re dangerous … when you try to cross the street ... and I want fresh air, I want a little bit of open space..." (22:40–23:41)

• New rules now require visibility at corners—“daylighting”—to allow safer crossing and limit the encroachment of structures (24:07).

7. Fees and Enforcement (14:33–16:21)

• Fees: New annual “revocable consent” fees are lower than pre-pandemic rates (~$31 per square foot in some areas), aimed at making outdoor dining more accessible. (14:33–14:58)
• Fines: DOT will enforce the rules—a small fine for first violations, escalating for repeated non-compliance.
• Enforcement transparency: City promises a public map of valid permits for transparency.

8. Looking Forward: What Comes Next? (25:07–25:51)

• Ongoing process: Applications roll over; those missing the Aug 3 deadline can still apply for future seasons.
• Projection:
  • Kailoth:

    "Based on everyone I've talked to...it seems like, again, big restaurant groups will be able to afford this ... and smaller local businesses will not, and they'll miss out." (25:12)

• Debate over regulation’s fairness and public benefit continues; most agree some rules are needed, but flexibility is key for small business survival.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "The city's outdoor dining situation is radically changing." — Alison Stewart (07:08)
• “Possession is 9/10 of the law. And you know, these sheds are everywhere…” — Ryan Kailoth (06:16)
• "Who is going to be the boss of all this? The person who goes around and gives out the tickets." — WNYC Host (16:12)
• "I've helped countless restaurants find their location pre-Covid, during Covid and after Covid. And not once, not ever has a restaurant ever underwrote outdoor space as part of their business model...." — Gabby, Retail Leasing Broker (20:28)
• “Some rules are better than no rules. Yes, laws are better than a lawlessness. Most people are pretty agreed on that.” — Ryan Kailoth (19:46)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Intro & Scene-setting: 01:33–03:38
• Pre-pandemic Outdoor Dining Context: 03:38–04:49
• How the Emergency Outdoor Dining Program Changed Things: 04:49–05:40
• Overview of New Regulations: 05:40–07:30
• Confusion About Application Process: 08:41–10:14
• Geographic Distribution & Permit Numbers: 10:14–11:10
• Listener Calls Complaints/Support: 13:07–14:33, 22:40–23:41
• Fees and Costs: 14:33–15:51
• Small Business Struggles & Closures: 17:35–18:37
• Worker and Community Impact: 18:37–19:46
• Looking Ahead: 25:07–25:51

Summary Takeaway

The future of outdoor dining in New York is at a crossroads: regulations seek to organize, clean up, and safely integrate these popular structures, but at a potentially high cost to small independent restaurants and workers. The city’s food culture, streetscape, and local economies will all be shaped by how this balance is struck in the coming years. As guest Ryan Kailoth put it, "Big restaurant groups will be able to afford this and benefit ... and smaller local businesses will not, and they'll miss out." (25:12)