The Future of Outdoor Dining in New York

Summary

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Podcast Summary: All Of It — "The Future of Outdoor Dining in New York"

Host: Alison Stewart (WNYC)
Guest: Ryan Kailoth, Reporter at WNYC and Gothamist
Date: August 7, 2024
Episode Theme:
This episode takes an in-depth look at the rapidly shifting landscape of outdoor dining in New York City. With the expiration of COVID-era emergency measures, the city has set new regulations and a deadline (August 3, 2024) for restaurants to apply for outdoor dining permits or face removal of their setups. Alison Stewart and guest Ryan Kailoth explore how these rules impact restaurant owners, workers, city residents, and the broader culture of public space in NYC.

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Main Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Shift from Temporary to Permanent Outdoor Dining (01:37–05:40)

• Context: During the pandemic, emergency regulations allowed restaurants to build flexible outdoor structures—dubbed “sheds”—as a lifeline when indoor dining shut down.
• Pre-pandemic: Outdoor dining was limited and expensive due to strict city zoning and landmark rules, with only about 1,200 establishments participating (03:38).
• Pandemic era boom: With deregulation, the number of outdoor dining setups exploded to 12,000–13,000 citywide, providing a financial buffer for struggling small restaurants (03:38–04:49).
• Ryan Kailoth:

  "This was a lifeline not just for the restaurants that needed to survive during COVID but also for the business model of that small restaurant in New York City...that extra revenue...really saved a lot of these restaurants." (05:02)

2. Introduction of New Regulations (05:40–07:30)

• Why change?: As the pandemic emergency ended, unregulated sheds led to complaints: rats, sanitation, obstruction, and aesthetics.
• City’s rationale: New guidelines aim to make outdoor dining "more sanitary, more uniform and aesthetically pleasing." (01:37–01:58)
• The new program imposes rules on structure size, placement, seasonality (roadway sheds must be removed for 5 months), and aesthetics.
• Regulatory oversight moves to the Department of Transportation (DOT).

3. The Application Process: Challenges & Numbers (08:41–11:10)

• Process: Restaurants must now apply through a city website or a detailed PDF; many found the system confusing and cumbersome.
  • Ryan Kailoth jokes:

    "That website is a lot like a video game, but the most boring, worst one I've ever played." (09:04)

• Adoption and scale:
  • Pre-pandemic sidewalk permits: ~1,200
  • Pandemic peak: 12,000–13,000 outdoor setups
  • Under new rules: Only around 2,600–3,000 applications filed; expected to drop around 80% from the pandemic peak (09:41–10:14).
• Some areas' uptake will become clearer with a forthcoming public map of approved locations.

4. The Impact on Small Businesses (17:35–18:37)

• Financial strain: Costs for deconstructing, storing, and rebuilding compliant sheds are significant (~$10,000 and up, plus storage fees). (15:30–15:51)
• Rent & revenue: For many, the loss of outdoor seating upends business models. Some, like Mama Fox in Bed-Stuy, have closed outright:
  • Kailoth:

    "With the loss of, I think it was about half her seating this past Saturday, she closed her business down." (17:35)

• Larger restaurant groups: Well-capitalized operators can absorb the new costs; smaller, independent businesses are at risk.

5. Worker & Community Experiences (18:37–22:37)

• Workers see hours and jobs cut as sheds disappear and seating shrinks:
  • Kailoth, citing Cafe Gitane's manager:

    "They've had to lay off staff, reduce other people's hours, cut positions, not fill empty positions. ... She described it as a death at the restaurant." (18:39)

• Mixed calls and texts from listeners reflect the city’s debate:
  • Some applaud the end of street-blocking sheds (Howard from Sheepshead Bay, 13:13).
  • Others, including a builder of outdoor structures, appreciate reasonable regulation but want flexibility for businesses to innovate.
• Accessibility and safety: Concerns about blocked sidewalks, endangering wheelchair users and cyclists, and obstructed sightlines at corners.

6. Balancing Public and Private Use of Public Space (13:54–14:33)

• Some callers argue sheds set a precedent for private companies taking over public space; others counter that regulated outdoor terraces are common elsewhere (Madrid, Paris) and work well.
• Anna from Manhattan:

  "I personally think all of those outdoor sheds need to go right now. … During the lockdown, it was fantastic. … But they’re dangerous … when you try to cross the street ... and I want fresh air, I want a little bit of open space..." (22:40–23:41)

• New rules now require visibility at corners—“daylighting”—to allow safer crossing and limit the encroachment of structures (24:07).

7. Fees and Enforcement (14:33–16:21)

• Fees: New annual “revocable consent” fees are lower than pre-pandemic rates (~$31 per square foot in some areas), aimed at making outdoor dining more accessible. (14:33–14:58)
• Fines: DOT will enforce the rules—a small fine for first violations, escalating for repeated non-compliance.
• Enforcement transparency: City promises a public map of valid permits for transparency.

8. Looking Forward: What Comes Next? (25:07–25:51)

• Ongoing process: Applications roll over; those missing the Aug 3 deadline can still apply for future seasons.
• Projection:
  • Kailoth:

    "Based on everyone I've talked to...it seems like, again, big restaurant groups will be able to afford this ... and smaller local businesses will not, and they'll miss out." (25:12)

• Debate over regulation’s fairness and public benefit continues; most agree some rules are needed, but flexibility is key for small business survival.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "The city's outdoor dining situation is radically changing." — Alison Stewart (07:08)
• “Possession is 9/10 of the law. And you know, these sheds are everywhere…” — Ryan Kailoth (06:16)
• "Who is going to be the boss of all this? The person who goes around and gives out the tickets." — WNYC Host (16:12)
• "I've helped countless restaurants find their location pre-Covid, during Covid and after Covid. And not once, not ever has a restaurant ever underwrote outdoor space as part of their business model...." — Gabby, Retail Leasing Broker (20:28)
• “Some rules are better than no rules. Yes, laws are better than a lawlessness. Most people are pretty agreed on that.” — Ryan Kailoth (19:46)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Intro & Scene-setting: 01:33–03:38
• Pre-pandemic Outdoor Dining Context: 03:38–04:49
• How the Emergency Outdoor Dining Program Changed Things: 04:49–05:40
• Overview of New Regulations: 05:40–07:30
• Confusion About Application Process: 08:41–10:14
• Geographic Distribution & Permit Numbers: 10:14–11:10
• Listener Calls Complaints/Support: 13:07–14:33, 22:40–23:41
• Fees and Costs: 14:33–15:51
• Small Business Struggles & Closures: 17:35–18:37
• Worker and Community Impact: 18:37–19:46
• Looking Ahead: 25:07–25:51

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Summary Takeaway

The future of outdoor dining in New York is at a crossroads: regulations seek to organize, clean up, and safely integrate these popular structures, but at a potentially high cost to small independent restaurants and workers. The city’s food culture, streetscape, and local economies will all be shaped by how this balance is struck in the coming years. As guest Ryan Kailoth put it, "Big restaurant groups will be able to afford this and benefit ... and smaller local businesses will not, and they'll miss out." (25:12)

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Transcript

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[Ryan Kailoth]

All right, unc.

[Alison Stewart]

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[WNYC Host]

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[Ryan Kailoth]

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[Alison Stewart]

This is all of it on wnyc.

[WNYC Host]

I'm Alison Stewart.

[Alison Stewart]

If you're a restaurant owner or service worker, you might know that this past Saturday, August 3rd, was the last day for restaurants, cafes and bars to apply to keep their outdoor dining structures under a new city program. Restaurants must apply for a permit or adhere to a new set of guidelines for their outdoor dining setups. If establishments do not apply by Saturday, August 3, they must take down their existing setups or face sizable fines. The new regulations include the size of structures, the distance from the sidewalk, the materials used. Proponents like the Department of Transportation, who are in charge of this initiative, say this permanent plan is the best way to make outdoor dining more sanitary, more uniform and aesthetically pleasing. Meanwhile, some critics, like small business owners who rely on outdoor structures for much needed revenue during the pandemic, are raising concerns about the program's high costs and onerous regulations. We're joined by Ryan Kailoth, reporter at WNYC in Gothamist, to walk us through what this means for restaurants and restaurant workers, as well as patrons like you and me. Hi, Ryan.

[Ryan Kailoth]

Hey, Allison.

[Alison Stewart]

Listeners, we want to hear from you. Are you a restaurant or bar owner who applied for the outdoor dining program? What was your rationale? Or maybe you decided no, not doing it. Give us a call 2124-3396-9221-2433. WNYC. Perhaps you're a service worker who works at a restaurant with outdoor dining. How will this new program impact you? We'd love to Hear your stories. 2124-3396-9221-2433-WNYC. Or maybe you love outdoor dining, but you'd like to see some changes. 212-433-969-2212, wnyc. You can reach out on social media. Olivet, wnyc. Way back during the pandemic, the city relaxed regulations for outdoor dining in order to help restaurant owners who were hit hard by Covid. What was allowed in the original days? In the old days.

[Ryan Kailoth]

Yeah. Well, if we go really, if we can time travel back to the ancient age of 2019, restaurants in the city were having a hard time, especially small restaurants. The sort of rent and labor costs and material costs, the economics weren't working out for restaurants then. You saw a lot of like small dinner only places, know, 50 seats prune. If you remember, that restaurant on East First street famously closed. Gabrielle Hamilton, the owner, said, you know, she joked, I've been running a nonprofit for years just because a restaurant like that didn't work out. And at the time there was, if we can remember all the way back to 2019, there was outdoor dining. There were 1200 or so restaurants that had sidewalk seating. It was very expensive, landmarking rules, zoning rules. You know, you didn't see a ton of it. Then the pandemic happened. Right. And of course, it shut everything down right away. But then it actually became this lifeline for restaurants in two ways. One, rents came down. We all remember that, and we remember how quickly they went back up. But two, there were no laws for outdoor dining. Right. The city's emergency plan meant that local laws went out the window. And so this temporary dining program, restaurants could do whatever they wanted to. And they did. That's when we saw everything we saw in the past four years.

[WNYC Host]

Oh, yeah. People sitting out in their, in their coats in cold weather, eating outside.

[Ryan Kailoth]

Yeah, exactly.

[WNYC Host]

And completely happy to be doing so.

[Ryan Kailoth]

Thrilled. Maybe a little heater, maybe just their own body warmth, all kinds of designs, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And so this was a lifeline not just for the restaurants that needed to survive during COVID but also for the business model of that small restaurant in New York City. Because where it was previously 50 seats inside, now it might be 50 inside and 100 outside. So that extra revenue, which didn't come with a lot of added costs, you know, maybe you need another server or something like that, really saved a lot of these restaurants. And now that it's changing, they're worried it'll break their business model again.

[WNYC Host]

So what problems started to arise with people eating outdoors in these sheds?

[Ryan Kailoth]

I mean, the classic complaints that, you know, we've fought in public forums for a couple years now are rats. I've heard the derisive term that these are homeless shelters, sometimes cleanliness, eyesore. A lot of people are worried about their block looking less pretty. Those are the biggest negative arguments.

[Alison Stewart]

So how did take me through the rationale of this process, this application process. The city says, okay, we got, we need to do something about it. What was the first thing they did?

[Ryan Kailoth]

Yeah, so the emergence of COVID the city emergency ended. So all of a sudden the laws had to kick back in. And there were no laws that the what exactly? There were no laws that address this new situation. Possession is 9, 10 of the law. And you know, these sheds are everywhere and sidewalk dining. So the city council fought it out for a while and finally passed this law. It's going to change everything. And it already started, you know, walking around. I've been taking pictures for my own reporting of all the sheds that are coming down and they have started to. And like you alluded to when we started, you know, there are rules about size, regulation, distance from stop signs, season. You know, they'll have to come down the, the roadway sheds, what we call the sheds. Those will have to come down for about five months. Sidewalk will be year round, but everybody pays fees now, subject to approval, etc. Etc.

[Alison Stewart]

I can remember in the time that I was away, as we say around here, I didn't go out for months for, for three months because I was healing from brain surgery. And I was shocked at how many sheds had already come down. Like everywhere's like, whoa, there used to be. That restaurant used to have a shed. Oh, that place. I'm wondering, were restaurants prepared, getting prepared for this August 3rd deadline?

[Ryan Kailoth]

Yeah, I talked to so many for my reporting. Some were getting deeply prepared. Some were in with their application because they knew it could work for them. The day the application opened, and some scarily, you know, a week or so before the deadline were on calls and webinars with the city asking super basic questions that had been answered a million times in other places. So wide spectrum. But yeah, you went into a time warp basically. And when you came out, you saw that the city's outdoor dining situation is radically changing.

[Alison Stewart]

Ryan Kyla is my guest. He's arts and culture reporter for WWNYC and Gotham. Ms. We are talking about the deadline for New York restaurants to apply to.

[WNYC Host]

Continue their outdoor setups. Listeners, let's get you in on this.

[Alison Stewart]

Are you a restaurant owner who applied.

[WNYC Host]

To a recent outdoor dining setup? What was your rationale? Maybe you decided against applying. Tell us your reasoning. 2124-339692-21243. WNYC. Or maybe you're a service worker who works at a restaurant with outdoor dining setup. How do you think the decision is going to impact you? We'd like to hear your story. 2124-3396-9221-2433. WNYC. Or maybe you're someone who wants to weigh in.

[Alison Stewart]

You like outdoor dining?

[Ryan Kailoth]

Yeah.

[Alison Stewart]

Keep it other people.

[WNYC Host]

No way. 212-433-9692. You can call us or that number. All right, let's talk the application by numbers. If you go to diningoutnyc.com it looks a little like a game sort of.

[Commercial Narrator]

When you, you know, there's little bubbles.

[Alison Stewart]

You can press on here and there. Well, do you do, did you find it easy to navigate?

[Ryan Kailoth]

No. That website is a lot like a video game, but the most boring, worst one I've ever played. There's also if, if you prefer, there's a handy dandy 31 page PDF that, you know, just has every little rule written out in the style of the city council. I'm not sure which one is easier.

[Alison Stewart]

Yeah, I wondered if that was supposed.

[WNYC Host]

To make it happier, like a happier, like, look, you can take part in this now. This beautiful look at these beautiful designs we made.

[Alison Stewart]

They're trying to roll it out like it's a positive.

[Ryan Kailoth]

Yeah.

[Alison Stewart]

Question mark.

[Ryan Kailoth]

You know, good publicity.

[Alison Stewart]

Can you, do you have an updated.

[WNYC Host]

Any number of restaurants who have applied licenses?

[Ryan Kailoth]

Yeah. If I remember rightly, it was so before the pandemic, there were 1200 that had sidewalk dining during the pandemic. Over those four years, it exploded to something like 12 or 13,000. So, you know, more than 10x. And now that's gonna come down by about 80%. I don't have the exact numbers in front of me, but restaurants are applying, I think about 2,600 or 3,000 or so for a mix of we want tables on the sidewalk, we want a shed in the street, or we want both.

[Alison Stewart]

Was there any sort of, was there any sort of based on geography, one area that did well, yep, we're going to continue with the list. Licenses or another area that said, not so much.

[Ryan Kailoth]

The city hasn't released it yet. What they're going to be doing, they said this month, is to have a map that shows all the approved locations. But the process is still so early that a lot of places who are applying, whatever that roughly 3,000 number was, a lot of them potentially won't be approved. If they're having, if they want a shed in the street, they have to do a local public hearing. They have to go to the community board, they have to take feedback. So this is just the start of the process, this deadline on August. And of those 3,000 or so that applied, not all will get it.

[WNYC Host]

3,226 license that was told, ah, licenses.

[Ryan Kailoth]

But again that some of those are double. Somebody who wants both a sidewalk and a road. So I think it's like 2,600 restaurants.

[WNYC Host]

One of the things that was interesting is if you have a shed, whatever we're calling the sheds now, they can't operate year round.

[Ryan Kailoth]

Yeah, I think they come down in, I believe it's November and go back up in April. So, you know, the coldest parts of the year.

[WNYC Host]

What about outside dining that's different from the sheds, the sidewalk dining? Where does that fall into the rubric?

[Ryan Kailoth]

Yeah, so they'll also have to pay fees. They'll also have to follow rules. You might remember from your before the blip that, you know, I had two blips. If the neighbors let you, you would see restaurants that had sidewalk tables all the way down the block, you know, because they had a friendly neighbor that was closed at night or something like that. Now you're restricted to your own block. So those numbers are shrinking as well. The one that will be, I don't know if you want to call it safe, but won't change that much is, you know the open streets where sometimes they'll block off a street temporarily and restaurants can move tables out there, that's a whole separate thing that's not really touched by this. So if your neighborhood has one of those, it might look the same.

[Alison Stewart]

I've seen some of these sheds and they're really elaborate. Is there any sort of side rule for places like, hey, we tried to make a really great looking shed. We really tried to be gentle with the neighborhood. Is there any sort of outlet for those restaurants? For those restaurants?

[Ryan Kailoth]

Yeah. I was at Cafe Spaghetti in sort of Red Hook, Columbia street waterfront district recently and theirs is a building. It's got heat in the Winter and AC in the summer. It's like, it looks like a little, you know, like a little house, like a little country house. Nope, that thing's got to change. Now you're allowed to have your own design as long as you follow the rules. But for example, the rules say no enclosed space. It's got to be open on three sides. So those people who had AC in the worst of summer in their little thing, that's not happening anymore. Unless you want to cool down the entire neighborhood, as my dad would say.

[Alison Stewart]

Let's talk to Howard from Sheepshead Bay. Hi, Howard, thank you so much for calling in.

[Howard from Sheepshead Bay]

Thank you for taking my call and very nice to have you back. So. So I'm very happy that hopefully a lot of these sheds that are blocking streets are going to come down. They block traffic, they block service trucks. Okay. And I service businesses in the area. In fact, there are a bunch of places on Carmine street that, that vegan places that I love to go to. But while those sheds are up, it's impossible to get through. It's impossible to drive through. And, and, and I, I'm, I'm thrilled that hopefully some of these are going to come down.

[WNYC Host]

Thank you so much.

[Alison Stewart]

Got another one. Sheds set a terrible precedent for private companies to take over public space. The sheds endanger and embarrass those bound to wheelchairs and cyclists. That's interesting about the.

[WNYC Host]

It's all of. That's actually interesting that point.

[Ryan Kailoth]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, certainly anybody in the city who's not making room for people who need room to get by, like, yeah, you should have to fix that. That's interesting. The first caller, Howard in Sheep's side Bay. You know, he said he enjoys eating at his, his local restaurants, but also needs to service them. Sounds like he might be driving things through those small streets. And yeah, it'll be interesting to see whether some of his favorite restaurants close or not.

[WNYC Host]

Depending on where you live, there's going to be an annual fee if you have the outside dining and it goes by different restaurants. West Village near US 31. $31 per square foot. What is this fee? They call it a revocable consent fee. What does it stand for?

[Ryan Kailoth]

You know, I never bothered to Google it because it's just a fee.

[WNYC Host]

It's just a fee. Well, that's my, you know, what is the city making money from this?

[Ryan Kailoth]

Yeah, as they did before. And it's a lot cheaper than it was before. So previously there was a big upfront fee and then I believe some square foot fees. If you were on the sidewalk, all of them, the upfront and the per square foot have come down. So it actually is much cheaper. And restaurant owners that I talked to as well as the city, which was tooting its own horn, both said like, yeah, that's the unequivocal positive. It's cheaper than it was before the pandemic.

[WNYC Host]

What are some additional costs to the restaurant owner.

[Ryan Kailoth]

Yeah. Of taking down or the whole building.

[WNYC Host]

Or putting up both.

[Ryan Kailoth]

Yeah. So the city estimates that the sheds, the new sort of approved design ones, will cost sort of lo fi figures with a lot of variability depending on size and design and how fancy you want it to be. So call that 10,000 and then you've got to store it over the winter. Right.

[WNYC Host]

Where can you find storage in the city? Sorry.

[Ryan Kailoth]

Yeah, no, there's a cottage industry already popping up of services that, hey, we'll come take it down, we'll store it, we'll put it back, etc. So owners that I talked to, restaurant owners are having to navigate this sea of new contractors and cottage industry types who were addressing this brand new market.

[WNYC Host]

Who is going to to be the boss of all this? The person who goes around and gives out the tickets.

[Ryan Kailoth]

Yeah, it seems like the Department of Transportation who are newly in charge of this program, it was a different city agency before the pandemic. It seems like they'll be doing it. If I recall rightly, it's a small fine, your first violation and a bigger one the second if I have that right. And yeah, the DOT said that this month there would be a map of approved locations. So any vigilantes who are on the beat in their neighborhood will be able to see.

[WNYC Host]

My guest is Ryan Colleth. He is arts and culture reporter for WNYC Gothamist. We are talking about New York City restaurants applying for the permit to continue their outdoor dining setup. It passed this past weekend. Listeners, are you a restaurant owner who's applied for the recent dining setup? Maybe you have a shed you want to keep it. What's your rationale? Maybe you decided against applying. Tell us. 2124-339692-21243. WNYC or if you're a service worker and you work at this restaurant, what expect the out the rec the what do you expect the decision and how it will impact you. 212-433-9692 before we went on the air, you were saying that this was really a story about small business and the survival of small business. Tell us a little more.

[Ryan Kailoth]

Yeah, so that that idea I laid out at the beginning that restaurants were having a hard time before COVID Covid was kind of a lifeline in terms of their business model. I've now talked to people. You know, one of the people in my early reporting, Samantha DiStefano, she's been running restaurants in the area for almost 30 years, New Jersey and New York City. Her newest restaurant, Mama Fox, it's in Bed Stuy. It's a great neighborhood restaurant. It's exactly this kind of small restaurant we were talking about that was having a hard time before. She said she was starting to have a hard time again. People are going out less, they're spending less than they do. She said revenue is down like 20%. Not just for her, but for all her industry friends that she talks to. And with the loss of, I think it was about half her seating this past Saturday, she closed her business down. It was her last day in business. She didn't say that was exactly the reason, but she was certainly pushing back hard against these rules. And I think, you know, from all the people I've talked to, more than two dozen restaurant owners, we're going to see a lot of that in the next year or so.

[WNYC Host]

Have you talked to service workers?

[Ryan Kailoth]

Yeah, Cafe Gitan. Do you remember that place in lolita? Classic turns 30 this year, which is mind blowing to me. They had the most amazing, just pleasant setup during COVID because they used to be always like four little low blue tables outside, and they spread out to like 16 every day. It was like a block party in front of Cafe Giton. You know, European tourists and fashion types walking around with their aperol spritz now that they've gotten rid of most of those tables and they're back down to four. The manager there told me they've had to lay off staff, reduce other people's hours, cut positions, not fill empty positions. I believe her words were. She described it as a death at the restaurant. And the entire vibe on the street and in the neighborhood is completely different.

[WNYC Host]

Got a text, says, hi, I'm a person who builds and maintains these street structures. They were originally made in a frenzy to last one season. So I'm glad there'll be guidelines and that all of them will be freshened up. The program is actually pretty reasonable in my eyes and considers problems I've grappled with for years. That's interesting.

[Ryan Kailoth]

That is interesting. And, you know, people who can afford it and even people who can't, say, have told me restaurant owners, service workers, people who are against this say like, yes, some rules are better than no rules. Yes, laws are better than a lawlessness. Most people are pretty agreed on that. I think the people pushing back in the industry, in the restaurant industry, were looking for more flexibility. They wanted those really nice setups they wanted to carve out if, hey, we built a whole other building with AC over here. They wanted just a little room in the regulations.

[Alison Stewart]

Let's talk to Gabby from Manhattan. Hi, Gabby, thanks for calling, all of it.

[Gabby, Retail Leasing Broker]

Hi, how you doing?

[Alison Stewart]

Doing great. What's up?

[Gabby, Retail Leasing Broker]

So I'm calling because I'm a retail leasing broker based in Manhattan and essentially that job helps people find locations for their stores to open, whether it's a restaurant or a dry goods store, etc.

[Howard from Sheepshead Bay]

Etc.

[Gabby, Retail Leasing Broker]

And I've helped countless restaurants find their location pre Covid, during COVID and after Covid. And not once, not ever has a restaurant ever underwrote outdoor space as part of their business model for paying for rent. So I find it really interesting when small business owners now talk about, or any business owner talks about how their outdoor space is so important to their business model. I mean, it's fundamentally, I don't even, I would never advise anyone to make that part of their business model anyway because there's always a chance for something like the staff and for the laws to change and then you can't pay your base rent, which is based on your indoor square footage. So that's just the insight that I.

[Howard from Sheepshead Bay]

Wanted to call and discuss.

[Alison Stewart]

Gabby, thank you so much for sharing. What do you think, Ryan?

[Ryan Kailoth]

Yeah, thanks, Gabby. That, that is super interesting. And I mean, this is new, right? This is just in the past few years. So I did talk to some people who opened not before the pandemic, and this was a change to their way of running business, but people who opened in 2022 and 2023. And I imagine, Gabby, that maybe those people weren't coming to you. But you know, one of them in what some people like to call Dime Square in downtown, you know, I think their restaurant was something like 40 seats inside and 86 outside when they opened in 2022. So for them it was absolutely a part of the decision that they could do this. Now that was a big, well capitalized restaurant group. The guy's a, a socialite. I think his wedding was in vogue. He's got like six places around town. He told me he's going to be fine because he can swing it. He's going to lose a few seats. He's applying to the new program. He can afford storage he can afford building, he can afford everything. Who I was hearing from are the people who didn't have that deep well of capital, who were struggling to make expenses, you know, on a monthly or quarterly basis, who said, hey, I can't throw another 20k, you know, a season down.

[Alison Stewart]

Anna online, too. Hi, Anna. Thanks for calling.

[Anna, Manhattan Resident]

Oh, hi, guys. I just happen to have caught your show. I'm born and raised in Manhattan and I personally think all of those outdoor sheds need to go right now. They're horrible. It's enough already. During the lockdown, it was fantastic. New York's a friendly city, you know, help great. We were helping out the businesses and everyone and it was hard on everyone. But they're, you know, they're dangerous. You know, when you. And I don't mean to sound like a prude because I'm a laid back kind of gal, but there, you know, you try to cross the street and even if, when you have a light, you can't see, sometimes the bikers that are going by really fast, it's a total danger. And you know what? When I go outside, I want like, you know, the outdoor cafes. Those are fantastic, you know, you know, outdoor cafes are fantastic, but I want to see, I want fresh air, I want a little bit of open space, you know, and they all have to go. It's enough already. That's all I wanted to say.

[WNYC Host]

All right, Anna, we got a text.

[Alison Stewart]

Always surprised the fuss New York City makes about activities that test the world that they do it.

[WNYC Host]

Let me reset.

[Alison Stewart]

That always surprised the fuss New York City makes about activities the test of the world do.

[WNYC Host]

Does every day.

[Alison Stewart]

It says that outdoor terraces, sidewalk tables and chairs are all over the city, like Madrid. And it works really well. Heaters in winter and cooling mist in the summer.

[WNYC Host]

Stop. Complicated.

[Ryan Kailoth]

Wow. So the texter versus Anna there, it's really interesting. I mean, Anna raised a good point, especially about what the city calls daylighting. That's where you have enough space at corners to be able to see cars or bikes that are coming. You know, that was a problem with these because a lot of these sheds go right up to the stop sign. You can't even see that there's a stop sign there. That is one of the new regulations. You've got to make sure the stop sign's visible. You got to have a little room at the corner so pedestrians and vehicles can interact. And I imagine a lot of people would say that's one of the better regulations. Regulations here.

[Alison Stewart]

Let's talk about the person who told you that the Sheds were, quote, nasty rat shacks. How much will the new program reduce rats? It's a big question in New York all the time.

[Ryan Kailoth]

Yeah, we got to get our sanitation reporter Liam Quigley in here for that one. I imagine that they provided a habitat in some spaces, but I'd be surprised if. If rats couldn't find somewhere else to live in the city.

[Alison Stewart]

A year from now, what do you think the outdoor dining landscape will look like?

[Ryan Kailoth]

I think it'll be severely shrunk. A year from now will be what, Late next summer? You know, the applications are ongoing. They're rolling. So people who didn't apply by this deadline, that's a problem for this season. They'll have to take down or adjust this season. But people who want to apply next season, they can continue. You know, it's not like a one and done situation forever. But based on these initial numbers, based on everyone I've talked to, based on the costs and just backing that into the numbers involved, it seems like, again, big restaurant groups will be able to afford this and benefit from the revenue that comes with it, and smaller local businesses will not, and they'll miss out.

[Alison Stewart]

Arts and culture reporter for WNYC and Gothamist Ryan Kalwith. Thank you so much for your time.

[Ryan Kailoth]

Thanks, Alison.

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