The History of Board Games

Summary

All Of It - Episode: The History of Board Games
Host: Tiffany Hansen (in place of Alison Stewart)
Release Date: May 7, 2025

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Introduction

In this engaging episode of All Of It, Tiffany Hansen hosts a deep dive into the captivating world of board games alongside Tim Clare, author of Across the Board: How Games Make Us Human. The conversation explores the rich history of board games, their cultural significance, and the various reasons why humans are drawn to play them. Through personal anecdotes, expert insights, and listener interactions, the episode unpacks how games have evolved and continue to shape human experiences.

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Personal Game Preferences and Nostalgia

The discussion kicks off with Tiffany Hansen inviting Tim Clare to share his first love for board games. Tim reminisces about playing "Speed" with his father—a card game reminiscent of Uno. He fondly recalls the "lush color illustrations" and the nostalgic ambiance it created (00:48).

Notable Quote:

"I remember just being absolutely in love with these lush color illustrations and this very nostalgic view of the world."
— Tim Clare [00:48]

Tiffany shares her own memories of playing Boggle with her grandmother, highlighting how personal and familial connections to games foster long-lasting affection.

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The Appeal of Games

Tim Clare introduces the philosophical concept of the "magic circle," coined by Johann Huizinger, describing how games create a "temporary perfection" where normal rules and social restrictions are suspended (02:42). This altered state offers a transgressive and liberating space for players, emphasizing the unique allure of gaming.

Notable Quote:

"Games are almost like an altered state, almost like a kind of ritual state that you step into when you choose to play."
— Tim Clare [02:42]

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Caller Recommendations and Discussions

Listener Contributions:
Throughout the episode, listeners contribute their favorite games, sparking diverse conversations:

1. Charlotte from Jersey City recommends a bluffing card game called "I Doubt It," perfect for all ages and requiring only one or two decks of cards (07:09).

2. Roger from Manhattan introduces competitive jigsaw puzzles as a form of board gaming, describing team-based puzzle-solving contests (11:09).

3. Graham from Toms River expresses his love for cooperative board games like Pandemic and Spirit Island, advocating for games that promote teamwork over competition (20:07).

4. Jordan from Utah shares her embrace of board games over video games, highlighting "Scythe" as a favorite due to its "dieselpunk" setting and strategic depth (18:46).

5. Cheryl from Irvington on Hudson discusses her passion for vintage board games and the sanitization of modern versions, questioning the balance between entertainment and moral messaging (13:11).

6. Elfie in Brooklyn talks about playing "Wizard," a trick-taking card game, during family gatherings, emphasizing fun over skill (23:02).

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The Evolution and Moral Aspects of Games

Cheryl raises an important point about how board games like The Game of Life have evolved to become more sanitized over time, removing elements like revenge or negative outcomes to cater to modern sensibilities (13:11).

Tim responds by tracing the origins of The Game of Life, noting its initial focus on achieving happiness despite including misfortunes like jail time. He highlights that many classic games carried moral messages, often serving as "sober moral lessons" for players. However, modern adaptations tend to prioritize entertainment, sometimes at the expense of these underlying messages.

Notable Quote:

"Games have actually often had a moral message to them in the past."
— Tim Clare [15:16]

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Cooperative vs Competitive Games

The conversation shifts to the dynamics between cooperative and competitive games. Graham advocates for cooperative games that foster collaboration, while Jordan mentions her family's approach to blending gaming with social activities like charcuterie nights.

Tim Clare underscores the variety within board games, including cooperative titles like Dorfromantik, which emphasizes teamwork to build serene landscapes, juxtaposing it with competitive games where players vie for dominance.

Notable Quote:

"Dorfromantik... working together to make a little puzzle that turns into a beautiful German rural landscape."
— Tim Clare 20:33

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Definitions and Nature of Games

When asked about the definition of board games, Tim references philosopher Bernard Suits, who defines a game as a "voluntary attempt to overcome unnecessary obstacles" with an inherent element of fun (12:16).

He also distinguishes puzzles as "solo games," expanding the scope of what can be considered a game. This inclusive definition embraces varied forms of gameplay, from traditional board games to jigsaw puzzles and role-playing scenarios.

Notable Quote:

"I would define a puzzle as a solo game."
— Tim Clare [12:55]

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Specific Game Discussions

A variety of games are discussed in detail:

• Rummikub: Tim clarifies the pronunciation and origins, noting its Hungarian design influenced by Mahjong (10:19).

• Stratego: Tiffany and Tim reminisce about playing this two-player strategy game, emphasizing its strategic depth and "fog of war" mechanics (05:58).

• Scythe: Jordan's mention of Scythe leads Tim to describe its "dieselpunk" aesthetic and dual gameplay elements of agriculture and conquest (19:25).

• Wizard: Elfie's experience with Wizard illustrates the social and entertaining aspects of trick-taking games (23:36).

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Conclusion

As the episode wraps up, Tiffany encourages listeners to continue sharing their favorite games and personal stories, fostering a community bound by shared experiences and diverse perspectives on gaming. Tim Clare’s insights illuminate how board games are more than mere pastimes—they are cultural artifacts that reflect and shape human interactions, values, and creativity.

Final Remarks:

"The ultimate thing is to play a game where everybody has a terrific time."
— Tim Clare [23:55]

The episode concludes with warm thanks to Tim Clare and an invitation to listeners to stay connected for more enriching discussions on All Of It.

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Key Takeaways:

• Cultural Significance: Board games serve as mirrors and molders of societal values and interpersonal relationships.

• Nostalgia and Family: Personal and familial connections to games enhance their lasting appeal and emotional resonance.

• Diverse Gameplay: The spectrum from competitive to cooperative games accommodates various preferences and fosters different types of social interactions.

• Evolution of Games: Modern adaptations balance entertainment with underlying moral messages, reflecting changing societal norms.

• Role-Playing Elements: Even strategic games incorporate elements of storytelling and role-playing, enhancing engagement and immersion.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• "Games are almost like an altered state, almost like a kind of ritual state that you step into when you choose to play." — Tim Clare [02:42]

• "Games have actually often had a moral message to them in the past." — Tim Clare [15:16]

• "Dorfromantik... working together to make a little puzzle that turns into a beautiful German rural landscape." — Tim Clare [20:33]

• "The ultimate thing is to play a game where everybody has a terrific time." — Tim Clare [23:55]

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About the Book: Across the Board: How Games Make Us Human

Tim Clare's book delves into the history and cultural impact of board games, exploring how they have shaped and been shaped by human societies. From ancient dice games to modern strategic masterpieces, Clare illuminates the enduring human affinity for play and competition.

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Join the Conversation

Do you have a favorite board game that holds a special place in your heart or family? Share your recommendations and stories by calling or texting 212-433-9692. Be part of the vibrant community that celebrates the joy and complexity of board games.

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This summary captures the essence of the episode, highlighting key discussions, personal anecdotes, and expert insights on the history and cultural significance of board games. Whether you're a seasoned gamer or new to the tabletop scene, this episode offers a compelling exploration of why games are an integral part of human culture.

Transcript

[Tiffany Hansen]

This is all of it. I'm Tiffany Hansen in for Alison Stewart today. From ancient games of dice to the advent of chess to the worldwide domination of Monopoly, throughout human history, humans have loved to play games. But why? A new book takes readers through the centuries long history of games from Romans who cheated at dice all the way up to settlers of Catan and magic the Gap Gathering. The book is titled across the Board How Games Make Us Human. And that book is by Tim Claire, who joins us now. Hi, Tim. Hi, Tim.

[Tim Clare]

Hi. Can you hear me?

[Tiffany Hansen]

I can hear you.

[Tim Clare]

Great.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Thanks so much for joining us. And we want to invite the listeners to this conversation as well. Do you have a favorite tabletop game, maybe a lesser known board game that you love, that you want to champion, a card game that you want to recommend? Talk to us about games you love. 212-433-9692. You can call us, you can text us at that number. Tim, what's the first board game that you fell in love with?

[Tim Clare]

Oh my goodness, that's such a good question. Well, there was a game that I used to play with my dad called Speed. And it's a bit embarrassing really because on, on the one hand it was more or less Uno, if anyone's ever played Uno. You're trying to, it's a genre of card game called shedding games where you're trying to get rid of all the cards in your hand. Right. They, they're kind of actually quite an old genre of card game that goes back decades and decades. Right. But the, these, this game Speed was all, it was very kind of British Empire, lots of old steam trains and motor cars. It was from the 1960s. It had been a game that my car game my dad had played as. So it's not my usual fare, but I remember just being absolutely in love with these lush color illustrations and this very kind of, I think, almost nostalgic view of the world.

[Tiffany Hansen]

You're drawn to that, you know, particular piece of this, this card game. I'm wondering, you know, a little more broadly what you think it is that draws people to games, period. Is it escapism? Is the sense of community? Is it, you know, just the fun of the competition? Is it all of those things?

[Tim Clare]

So the philosopher and historian Johann Heusinger called Get said that games take place within a magic circle. He said within this magic circle, a temporary perfection takes place. So he had this idea that games are almost like an altered state, almost like a kind of a ritual state that you step into when you choose to play. And Temporarily, the normal rules of the world are suspended, the normal cares, the normal social restrictions, and something else can take place. And I think that that is the fundamental thing that attracts us to games, is there's something transgressive and weird and liberating about playing a game.

[Tiffany Hansen]

We have a text that says simply Boggle.

[Tim Clare]

I'm a big fan of Boggle. I played that with. That's a game that I used to play a lot with my mum. Yes, my grandma.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Me too. I played that with my grandmother. And instantly when I saw that word, that's exactly what I thought of is playing Boggle with my grandmother. And so I guess my. My question is to you, since we both went, there is some of what we love about games, nostalgia.

[Tim Clare]

I think it can be a combination of nostalgia. I certainly think there is nothing that would be bringing people back to monopoly after 90 years if there wasn't an element of generational nostalgia. People forgetting that they didn't like it, it wasn't quite as enjoyable as they remember, and buying a copy and then never playing it. But I think also it's just, you kind of go where the love is in life, I think. And one thing that a lot of games can do is create a space where generations can sit together and play something. You know, that's quite a rare thing for there to be an activity where a child and their mum and their grandma, three generations can sit around a table and kind of find parity, you know, can actually find a space where they're all equally engaged. That's kind of beautiful.

[Tiffany Hansen]

I think we have a couple of texts here. Tim, love the game Farkle. All you need are six dice, a paper and a pen. Similar to the concept of poker. My family's favorite game, and it travels easy. Have you heard of Farkle?

[Tim Clare]

I have, yeah. And I think like the existence of folk dice games and kind of push your luck style dice games where you're rolling a dice, keeping some rolling, the rest, you know, people have played things like Yahtzee. And I love the fact that that is like, become a family game. I can imagine that. Going on camping trips, going on holiday, and then, you know, during a quiet moment, people may be starting to chant, far cool. Far cool. You know, I could. I'm sure that the family, maybe they're cooler than my family, but we would definitely have some very geeky games that there would be a call to bring it out.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Another text we have. I love the board game Stratego. There was a set left at my childhood house when we moved in and I played it growing up. I still love playing it occasionally. A great two player strategy game.

[Tim Clare]

I used to play that with my dad all the time.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Wait, that's not the one where you put the little ships on the board?

[Tim Clare]

No, no, it's, it's, it's, it's part of a genre called block games where basically imagine that you're playing chess, but only I can see what my pieces are.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Yes, I remember.

[Tim Clare]

And you can see what your pieces are and only when they come into contact that fog of war is broken and you turn it around. It was made eventually with like little plastic castles and it's generally set as a kind of like Napoleonic war era type of game. So yeah, it's a game where you, and you get to set up where your piece is your beginning place and the idea is to reach the enemy's flag.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Another recommendation board game, Ransom Note. It's hilarious. Writers and words, people will love it. And listeners. Tim and I would love you in this conversation with more of your recommendations. 212-433-9692. We are talking about games, board games, games that mean something in your family. A board game that you love, that you just want to champion. We'd love to hear from you. 212-433-9692. Let's talk with Charlotte in Jersey City. Hi Charlotte.

[Charlotte]

Hey. Well, I'm not. It's not a board game. You just need a regular deck of cards, ideally two decks of cards. It's called. I doubt it. And you just sit in a big circle, you shuffle all the cards, you deal them out and then you just go around the circle and you start with the ace or one and you say three aces and you put it in the middle, maybe face down. They may be three aces or may, may not be three aces. And it's a bluffing game and you just keep going around the circle and if somebody calls your bluff, you have to pick up all the cards in the middle and then you've got thousands to get rid of. So you can have as many as, you know, eight cards that you have to get rid of at any time of anything but 5 year olds to 70 year olds. We played it all summer long, all age groups. The circle could be 12 people, it could be 6 people and all you need is a deck of cards or two decks of cards. It's a great game.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Oh Charlotte, thanks so much for the recommendation. Tim, how do, what do we know about how games was playing cards got their start?

[Tim Clare]

Well, it's, it's an it's a funny story in that most of the time we can't trace the history of games, or they pop up all over the world, sometimes spontaneously. Cards is this rare case where we can trace the technology of cards pretty accurately. We think they probably started in China. One of the useful things about cards is you can't have cards without paper making technology. So we can be pretty certain that they follow the growth of paper making. So in China, it looks like they started out as games that people were playing with paper money. And in fact, the first four suits that we have today match denominations on old Chinese banknotes. So start in China, move up through the Islamic world when they get paper making, and then from there they kind of push into Portugal and Spain, up through Europe and from there to Britain. And actually one of the last countries to get playing cards is Japan, even though they're right next to China. It's not until Portuguese traders take them there during the kind of IDO period or just before the IDO period that Japan, oddly, despite having paper, gets them last. But that's the kind of spread of cards all over the world. And that four suit structure started in China over a thousand years ago and was so successful that we've never got rid of it.

[Tiffany Hansen]

You know, one card game that I remember learning that I've now completely forgotten the rules for is Euchre.

[Tim Clare]

Yeah, that's.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Go ahead.

[Tim Clare]

Well, I was just gonna say that's like. Sorry. I mean, any game that you mention is just gonna trigger me a mono. Enemy of enthusiasm. But like, what an amazing game. I believe that Yuka is kind of distantly related to what Winston Churchill's favorite game was, which is Bezique. But yeah, like, again, like an actually really tactically involved, quite sophisticated card game. Yuka.

[Tiffany Hansen]

We have a text here. Tim. I love playing. I'm going to say Rum a Cub, but could you. And the texter says, could you please confirm the correct pronunciation of the game? Is it Rummacub? Rummacube. Help out, Help out, Tim.

[Tim Clare]

My understanding is whenever I've seen it advertised, it's Rummikub. It comes from. I think it was originally designed in the 1930s. Comes from. It was a Hungarian designer and it's kind of passed through the world from. That was very, very probably inspired by mahjong and the popularity of mahjong amongst the Jewish diaspora, where it kind of had spread from Chinese and Japanese players. So, yeah, a really great game. Run a Cub. I like it a lot.

[Tiffany Hansen]

We have a call here from Roger in Manhattan. Roger, welcome.

[Graham]

How you doing? Good, thank you. Yeah, I don't. Some people might not consider this a board game, but it is. It's a competitive jigsaw puzzle. You get two of the same puzzle. You can't get a thousand piece one or you'll never finish in the evening, but, you know, a relatively small number of pieces divided into two teams. You set up on opposite tables and you solve the puzzles with each other, against each other.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Tim, I have seen online. Thank you so much, Roger. Tim, I have seen online videos of huge conferences of these competitive jigsaw puzzle. I don't know, they must just be large conventions of people having contests around this. It's not really a board game, but I guess what I'm wondering is, do you have a definition of what fits as a board game?

[Tim Clare]

So I would definitely grandfather puzzles, jigsaws into the games world. In fact, one of the oldest magazines about games in the UK was called Games and Puzzles because the two groups are so often. You know, I'm a big fan of puzzles. I would describe games. This is the definition that was used by the philosopher Bernard suits in the 1970s. He said a game is the voluntarily, voluntary attempt to overcome unnecessary obstacles. Right. So anything where you are, you're choosing to take on the task and it's unnecessary. And I would say the other thing he added that isn't included in that definition is this idea of the losery mode, which is just a complicated way of saying you're doing it with fun in mind because you want to be entertained. I'd say that makes it a game. So I would define a puzzle as a solo game.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Yeah. Tim, we have a couple of many folks chiming in here about risk, of course. And I want to take a call from Cheryl in Irvington on Hudson. Hi, Cheryl.

[Cheryl]

Yes, hi. I wanted to just talk about vintage board games and how different games have become. I noticed in particular with the Game of Life that there used to be sort of like some bad things that would happen in the Game of Life, like you could exact revenge and, you know, just certain of the pieces in the game think bad things could happen. And in the new Game of Life, it's all been very sanitized and so that nothing bad ever happens. So I've become a big collector of the vintage version of board games.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Nice. Thank you, Cheryl. Tim, it's funny, I read something in the New York Times Magazine, I think it was a couple of weeks ago, about a grandmother who would take one of the cards out from the Monopoly game. Because in her estimation, it led to something that she didn't want her kids, her grandkids to learn. She had some moral objection to one of the Monopoly cards. And so talk to us a little bit about the sanitizing of board games and how, as Cheryl was saying, things have. How games have evolved a little bit. And also, like, if you think that maybe some of that is unnecessary, is some of the point of these games to kind of teach these moral lessons, or is that a bridge too far?

[Tim Clare]

Well, that's a. It's a great question. And the Game of Life is a great example. It's really, in many ways, the first truly American board game. It came out was created by Milton Bradley in 1860. And it's true, like, in the original edition, the checkered Game of Life, you could die, you could go to prison, you could do a lot of. You could have misfortune. On the other hand, like, the point of that game, of the original Game of Life, was to achieve happiness, whereas in the new one, the winner is the person who ends with the most cash. Right.

[Tiffany Hansen]

So there's an American outcome for you.

[Tim Clare]

Yeah, absolutely. But on the other hand, you know, the original Game of Life didn't come with a dice because they were scared that the inclusion of the tools of the saloon into the nursery would encourage gambling. So they had a spinner, what's called a teetotum. And so, on the other hand, you know, quite a lot of the early, you know, Victorian and American games had these kind of moral messages. Shoots and Ladders comes from an Indian game that was about morality, and you'd go down the snakes if you sinned and things like that. So I'd say games have actually often had a moral message to them in the past. And I'd say sometimes I suspect that was a little bit of an excuse to get the games into houses. Because the other thing is, you know, the moral message can sometimes be hilariously funny because you roll a dice and Grandma lands on drunkenness and is locked up in the jail. I don't think that the Victorian players who played those games were, like, going there, you see? And they were taking it as a sober moral lesson. I suspect, like us today, when someone goes to jail in Monopoly, they found it really funny.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Yeah. We're gonna talk more about the instruments of the saloon coming up. We are talking with Tim Claire, who's author of across the Board How Games Make Us Human Listeners. Let us know your game recommendations. 212-433-9692. We'll get to more of Them after a quick break. I'm Tiffany Hansen in for Alison Stewart. This is all of it here on wnyc. I'm Tiffany Hansen in for Allison Stewart. Allison will be back tomorrow. Right now we're talking with Tim Cl, the author of a book called across the Board How Games Make Us Human. And Tim, I'm going to go right to our callers here. Graham in Milburn, good morning. Or not. Good morning. Good afternoon, Graham. Taking us back into Good morning.

[Graham]

Afternoon. How are you?

[Tiffany Hansen]

Good, thank you.

[Graham]

Yeah, so I'm a game designer and I'm very excited to hear you guys talking about this. In a previous life, I ran a couple board game cafes. So it was very, it was the peak enjoyment to just be teaching people all the time. Board games are the only kind of entertainment where you have to pass a reading comprehension test before you're allowed to have fun. But the games that are of most interest to me are storytelling games and role playing games. Is that anything that Tim has talked about?

[Tiffany Hansen]

Yeah, Tim, yeah.

[Tim Clare]

I mean, I am a massive tabletop role playing nerd and I cover it extensively in the book. I think all games to an extent are a role playing game. When we play chess, we're pretending that we're leading two armies. When we play poker or something like that, we're pretending that we care about these cards and that the fall of the matter. So every game involves a certain degree of role play. But of course, there's been this huge explosion in the world of things like Dungeons and Dragons and similar tabletop role playing games, especially with the rise of kind of like online streaming services where people can watch these games for the first time being played by other people and see how it's done.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Tim, let's go again to one of our callers, Jordan in Utah. Hi, Jordan.

[Jordan]

Hi, how are you? Good. I'm calling to actually let you guys know that since my husband and I are actually big video gamers, but since couch co op has gone down, we've actually much more embraced our lovely board game collection. And once a week we have a Shark charcuterie board game night where we have a charcuterie board and we play a board game. And we've recently been playing Scythe, which is awesome. It was, I believe it was on Kickstarter and it's a really good game.

[Tiffany Hansen]

And you said sights. Is that right, Jordan?

[Jordan]

Scythe. S Y T H E. Oh, Scythe.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Like the thing you swing around. Okay. Tim, have you heard about Scythe?

[Tim Clare]

Yeah, Scythe is a really amazing setting. It's a Game that's. It's what's called dieselpunk. Right. So you have these amazing sort of oil painting images of like early 20th century, like Russia and Kazakh Step, but with gigantic robots in the background. And the name scythe is a deliberate play on words because a scythe can be a weapon, but it can also be a tool of agriculture. So the idea is you can play the game building up your farms and factories, or you can play the game conquering and making war.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Let's talk with Joe in Toms River, New Jersey. Hi, Joe.

[Graham]

Hi. How's it going?

[Tiffany Hansen]

Good.

[Graham]

I am a fan of modern board games, but more specifically cooperative board games. Games like Pandemic, Spirit Island, Forbidden island. Games that you can work together to achieve a common goal. And I think that's better than beating people to a pulp sometimes.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Thanks for the recommendation. So, Tim, let's talk about cooperative games. What's top of your list for a cooperative game?

[Tim Clare]

I'm so glad you asked. There's a game called Dorfromantik, which is like you're working together to make a little puzzle that turns into a beautiful German rural landscape. So you work together to build rivers, build forests, put together towns. It's very chilled out, very relaxing, and it's just like working as a team. But it's genuinely challenging as well. For anyone thinking that sounds dull because essentially you're working as a team against the game to try and get the highest score. It's very lovely and it's something that I've really enjoyed playing with friends.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Nicole in Pelham. Nicole, you have a recommendation?

[Cheryl]

Hi. Well, I have a recommendation and I also have, I guess it's part recommendation, part question. When I was a kid, we played this game called Mealborn. I think it's M I L L E born and it was a card game, but it had the. It was like a theme of like cars and travel or something. And my. It was very old. My mom still has it and it was a great game. I have never seen it since. And I wonder if he could, you know, tell. Tell me the origin of it, if he's ever heard of it and you know, if it's still around.

[Tim Clare]

Tim, I've never heard of that game before in my life. Do you say it's called mealborn?

[Cheryl]

It's like M I L L E. I think it's like a French spelling, like thousand.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Like meal. Yeah.

[Cheryl]

Yep, yep. And you had to travel. You had to travel and you could. You used cards to like put obstacles for your opponent and all sorts of things. I mean I'm. I'm 53, I'm remembering it from when I was a kid.

[Charlotte]

So it's a whole lot.

[Tim Clare]

It sounds awesome. My recommendation to you is there's a great repository online called Board Game Geek which is like a meticulously maintained archive of almost every game that's ever existed. And there's just like a team of nerds working like. And I don't use that pejoratively by the way, I consider myself a nerve nerd. But like working like medieval monks to catalog and preserve every game that's ever existed. So if there is anything on the Internet that can tell you about it, I would go to Board Game Geek.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Sounds like one of the things the Internet is actually good for.

[Tim Clare]

Absolutely.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Let's talk Tim. Let's talk with Elfie in Brooklyn. Hi, Alfie.

[Tim Clare]

Hi.

[Jordan]

How are you guys doing?

[Tiffany Hansen]

Great.

[Jordan]

I'm good. We play wizard up at our cottage on Keuka Lake. My whole family sort of convenes there in the summertime and everyone that comes there has to play it.

[Tiffany Hansen]

All right, Tim?

[Cheryl]

Terrible.

[Jordan]

I am absolutely terrible at it. But my, but my, my brother calls me the Wiz.

[Graham]

Not.

[Tim Clare]

But I still love it.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Well, I love that for you, Alfie. I. Tim, two questions, I guess. One is if, if you've heard of it. And two, like the point is not really to be good at it, is it?

[Tim Clare]

Well, so wizard is a kind of, I believe if it's the same game that I. I know it's a trick taking card game. So if you've ever played whist or bridge or any games like that. Bridge, by the way, has the. The distinction of being the most hated card game according to Americans.

[Tiffany Hansen]

I'm not a fan of bridge, but wizard is.

[Tim Clare]

Wizard is simpler. Definitely is the point to win. I think the point is to try to win. I think the game exists, is most exciting when everybody is playing to give the other players a good game, to give that excitement. Do I remember after I've played a game whether I won or not, not often do I remember whether I had a good time. Absolutely. So of course that the ultimate thing is to play a game where everybody has a terrific time.

[Tiffany Hansen]

The name of the book is across the Board How Games Make Us Human. It is by Tim Clare, who we've been talking to this hour. Thanks so much for your time, Tim. We appreciate it and happy gaming.

[Tim Clare]

Thank you so much.