The Latest on the Tik Tok Ban

Summary

Podcast Summary: All Of It – "The Latest on the TikTok Ban"

Host: David Fuerst (filling in for Alison Stewart)
Guest: Sapna Mashwari, New York Times Business Reporter
Release Date: January 24, 2025
Duration: Approximately 31 minutes

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1. Introduction and Overview

David Fuerst opens the episode by addressing the ongoing controversy surrounding the TikTok ban in the United States. Highlighting the gravity of the situation, he notes that TikTok, used by approximately 170 million Americans, has become a significant political, technological, and geopolitical issue. The ban, initially passed by Congress and upheld by the Supreme Court, mandates that TikTok's parent company, ByteDance, must sell the platform to an American entity to mitigate national security risks associated with foreign ownership.

Notable Quote:
"If you're one of the 170 million Americans who use TikTok, you may have felt like a political football recently." — David Fuerst [00:35]

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2. Legal Developments and Supreme Court Ruling

Sapna Mashwari provides a comprehensive update on the legal trajectory of the TikTok ban. She explains that the law, known as the Protecting Americans from Foreign Adversary Controlled Applications Act, was enacted in April and required ByteDance to divest TikTok's American operations. Despite ByteDance's efforts to challenge the law in court, the Supreme Court recently upheld its constitutionality, affirming the government's authority to enforce the ban.

Notable Quotes:
"The Supreme Court ruled last week that the law was constitutional and it was perfectly legal for the government to threaten this ban." — Sapna Mashwari [01:49]
"TikTok actually went dark for about 12 to 14 hours this weekend... it was pretty sensational." — Sapna Mashwari [02:10]

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3. Political Influences and Executive Actions

Following the Supreme Court's decision, former President Donald Trump swiftly issued an executive order placing the ban on hold for 75 days. This move created a state of uncertainty, with Trump indicating his intention to oversee the sale of TikTok. Mashwari highlights the political maneuvering involved, including Trump's shift from advocating the ban in 2020 to expressing support for TikTok's continued operation under new ownership.

Notable Quotes:
"TikTok got up and running again after Trump said he would issue an executive order." — Sapna Mashwari [02:10]
"Trump has some ideas for it. It's at odds with federal law." — Sapna Mashwari [02:30]

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4. National Security Concerns vs. Social Media Use

Listeners engaged in the discussion express skepticism over the national security rationale behind the ban. Tony from Italy questions the necessity of TikTok in spying on America, suggesting it might be mere political posturing. Mashwari responds by detailing the government's concerns about ByteDance's ties to the Chinese government, emphasizing fears of data access and potential propaganda dissemination.

Notable Quotes:
"Does it raise red flags for you that President Trump seems to have been coordinating with TikTok as a civilian before he was sworn in?" — David Fuerst [04:46]
"The government and intelligence officials have argued that... ByteDance owning TikTok... poses a national security threat." — Sapna Mashwari [07:30]

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5. Impact on Users and Small Businesses

Madeline from Middletown, NJ, and Adam from Point Pleasant, NJ, share personal experiences highlighting TikTok's role beyond entertainment. Madeline underscores TikTok as a vital community and news source, especially during crises like the Gaza conflict. Adam discusses the financial implications for small business owners who rely on TikTok for sales and marketing, expressing concern over the platform's potential shutdown.

Notable Quotes:
"TikTok has provided a new avenue to getting customers and for advertising." — Sapna Mashwari [23:55]
"I felt completely severed... watching TikTok go dark was a surreal experience." — Madeline [10:16]

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6. Free Speech and Censorship Debate

Richard from Brooklyn introduces a poignant debate on free speech, recounting a conversation with his teenager about whether banning TikTok infringes on free speech rights. Mashwari explains the Supreme Court's stance, which acknowledged the free speech concerns of TikTok users but deemed the ban justifiable under national security premises.

Notable Quotes:
"TikTok said that this law totally violated the free speech rights of its users." — Sapna Mashwari [13:01]
"The Supreme Court decided that the national security concerns... met the requirements to go against this." — Sapna Mashwari [13:45]

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7. Comparison with Other Social Media Platforms

Listeners like Joe and Madeline draw parallels between TikTok and other social media giants like Facebook and Google, arguing that similar data privacy issues exist across platforms. Joe suggests that if the government is concerned about foreign manipulation, domestic platforms should also come under scrutiny.

Notable Quotes:
"It's a strange precedent that we're setting to say that TikTok is a security threat, when in reality it's just another social media platform." — Madeline [09:14]
"Why is this not being looked at or examined at all?" — Kyle [26:26]

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8. Geopolitical Context and Global Implications

Kyle from Brooklyn introduces the notion of a "social media cold war," pointing out the asymmetrical access between American and Chinese platforms. Mashwari adds that TikTok is not available in China under its original branding, instead operating a censored version called Doyen, further complicating the geopolitical narrative.

Notable Quotes:
"TikTok itself is actually not available in China. They have a version of the app that they offer that's censored." — Sapna Mashwari [27:16]
"What the government is saying about the security risks... is different from how American social media is treated in China." — Sapna Mashwari [28:08]

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9. Future Scenarios and Potential Outcomes

As the episode concludes, Mashwari outlines the key factors to monitor in the coming weeks: negotiations between ByteDance and potential American buyers, the stance of tech companies like Google and Apple regarding TikTok's availability on their app stores, and the reactions of TikTok's vast user base. The uncertainty persists, with the possibility that even if a sale proceeds, the platform's future features and governance could undergo significant changes.

Notable Quotes:
"I'm really curious to see what happens with the sale talks and what negotiations are going to look like." — Sapna Mashwari [30:35]
"Even if a sale goes through, we don't know what's gonna happen to the platform." — Sapna Mashwari [29:56]

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10. Listener Engagement and Community Perspectives

Throughout the episode, listeners contribute diverse viewpoints, reflecting the broader societal debates on technology, security, and personal freedom. From concerns about censorship and data privacy to the practical implications for businesses and content creators, the conversation encapsulates the multifaceted impact of the TikTok ban.

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Conclusion

"The Latest on the TikTok Ban" delves deep into the complexities surrounding the potential shutdown of one of the world's most popular social media platforms. Through expert analysis, listener anecdotes, and critical debates, the podcast paints a comprehensive picture of the intersection between technology, politics, and society. As the situation remains fluid, the episode emphasizes the importance of staying informed and engaged with the developments that shape digital culture and national security.

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Notable References:

• Protecting Americans from Foreign Adversary Controlled Applications Act: The law enforcing the TikTok ban.
• ByteDance: Chinese parent company of TikTok.
• Supreme Court Ruling: Upheld the constitutionality of the ban.
• Doyen: Censored version of TikTok available in China.

Transcript

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[Sapna Mashwari]

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[David Fuerst]

This is all of It. I'm David Fuerst in for Alison Stewart. Happy Friday, everyone. If you're One of the 170 million Americans who use TikTok, you may have felt like a political football recently bounced from Congress, which voted to ban the platform unless an American company bought it. To the Supreme Court, which upheld the ban. Then to the White House, where President Trump, the day after the ban took effect, his first day in office, signed an executive order putting the ban on hold for 75 days. This is a developing political story. It's a tech industry story. It's a geopolitical story as US Lawmakers claim that having so many Americans on an app run by a company with ties to a foreign government poses a national security threat. Joining us now with an update on the ban is Sapna Mashwari, New York Times business reporter covering TikTok technology and emerging media companies. Sapna, welcome to all of it.

[Sapna Mashwari]

Thanks for having me.

[David Fuerst]

So for those of us who haven't been following all of the details, all of the beats of the TikTok ban, can you give us a bit of an overview and an update on the latest?

[Sapna Mashwari]

Yeah, of course. So basically, as we know, this law was passed way back in April. It was signed by Biden back then, and it said that TikTok had to be sold by its Chinese parent company, ByteDance. TikTok and ByteDance have been gambling for the better part of a year that they would be able to sue and overturn this law by this deadline of January 19th. This went all the way to the Supreme Court as of a week ago. And the Supreme Court ruled last week that the law was constitutional and it was perfectly legal for the government to threaten this ban if TikTok didn't sell because the company was so busy trying to fight the sale and saying that a sale was impossible, they didn't have anything lined up, and the government made good on its promise. And TikTok actually went dark for about 12 to 14 hours this weekend. I was not on an MTA bus myself, but I heard that from colleagues who were that, you know, buses of people, subways erupted as people saw that their TikTok viewing was interrupted. I thought it was pretty sensational. I mean, we just haven't seen anything like that on that scale in the US but as we all know, it was pretty short lived. It wasn't too long before Trump said he would issue an executive order. And it gave some comfort to some of the tech companies charged with complying with this ban. And TikTok got up and running again on Sunday. And now we're kind of in limbo because Trump says he's going to oversee a sale. He has some ideas for it. It's at odds with federal law. And we're living in this strange space where it seems to have a 75 day life plan, but we really don't know what's going to happen next.

[David Fuerst]

Well, listeners, if you have any questions about the current status of the TikTok ban, we can take your calls at 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC. Maybe you've been a TikTok user for a long time. Maybe you're one of the half million users who've tried the alternative social media rednote and want to share what that was like or anything else you want to weigh in on about the developing story of the TikTok ban. That's 212-433-9692. At the beginning of the week when the law officially came into effect, TikTok users in the US were met with a message saying, sorry, TikTok has been banned in the US but they also notably said they were working with President Trump to keep the app available while they negotiate some kind of solution. Does it raise red flags for you that President Trump seems to have been coordinating with TikTok as a civilian before he was sworn in, or is that the wrong thing to take away from all of these indications?

[Sapna Mashwari]

I mean, I think it's pretty surprising, particularly because a lot of these social platforms try and take a sort of neutral approach to politics, right, because of the way they deliver so much news and information. But I think that message was just reflective of the fact that Trump is the only hope at this point for this company to continue in the United States. So, you know, of course they were buttering him up with these messages and lauding him for trying to get back, saying that he was the one they were negotiating with. And it's a gamble that seems to have worked well.

[David Fuerst]

You talk about the only hope. But also President Trump initially backed a ban, right? I mean, only seems to have changed his mind because he heard that TikTok helped him get Reelected not because, because he viewed any national security threat differently. Can you talk about that evolution?

[Sapna Mashwari]

Yeah. That is the head spinning part of all of this is you could point to the bipartisan agreement over TikTok in Congress to really be, you know, the roots of it came from Trump in 2020. He is the one who tried to ban the app and orchestrate a sale during his first administration. But Trump changed his tune on TikTok last year around March, he, he actually met with a conservative billionaire and Republican mega donor named Jeffrey Yass. Around that time they say that, you know, Trump has said he did not talk about TikTok with this donor, but around that time he started saying pretty positive things about TikTok, said he changed his stance. He said he liked TikTok because he didn't want Meta to gain more power. And Jeffrey Yass has about 15% of a stake in ByteDance and the co founder of his financial firm is also on the board of ByteDance. So certainly stands to profit if the company stays in the US we're speaking.

[David Fuerst]

With New York Times business reporter Sapna Meshwari and we're inviting you to join the conversation as well. 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC. And let's hear from Tony in Italy. Welcome to all of it.

[Tony]

Hey, thanks guys. How are you? Yeah, honest question, I'm not being sarcastic here, but the worry is the American government is saying that whatever, the Chinese government's going to spy on America. The Chinese government does not need tick tock to spy in America. I mean, I just. What is the, I guess, you know, what's the worry? I don't understand the whole, you know, hullabaloo. I think maybe it's just political posturing. Is that what it is?

[David Fuerst]

Well, let's break it down. Sapna, what about that, what is it special about TikTok?

[Sapna Mashwari]

Yeah, I think that's a reasonable point of view and definitely one I've heard from a ton of Americans. Given the availability of data out there. I think what the government and intelligence officials have argued is that in China there's different laws that govern private companies. And so they say that ByteDance owning TikTok actually gives the Chinese government special access to not just sensitive user data from TikTok users, but the ability to spread propaganda to Americans. Especially because when you open the TikTok feed, it's really based on your interest. It's not as much of a social feed as Instagram or Facebook might be, but that is definitely a criticism I've heard many times from our readers as well.

[David Fuerst]

Is there any talk. We have a text question here. Is there any talk about banning RedNote? And can you explain what RedNote is?

[Sapna Mashwari]

Yeah. So RedNote is another Chinese app that TikTok users have turned to in droves in the past couple of weeks as an alternative to TikTok. I think that under this same law, if Congress and the President were to take a stance against RedNote, I believe that they would actually be able to ban it here as well. The law that was passed by Congress last year is something around protecting Americans from foreign adversaries, and it targets North Korea, Iran, Russia and Russia and China, basically saying that these companies can own social media in the US and it kind of echoes FCC rules that we have in the US where foreign countries can't just buy TV networks and radio stations to spread news to Americans.

[David Fuerst]

Let's hear from Madeline joining us in Middletown, New Jersey, picking up on this thread. Hello, Madeline.

[Madeline]

Hi, good afternoon. So, yeah, I've been a TikTok user basically since started. I got a lot of followers during COVID And I mean, a lot. You know, 50,000 isn't that much in the grand scheme of TikTok. But for me personally, like, I completely agree, ByteDance and the parent companies of TikTok are using our data to build the algorithm, But Facebook and Google do the same thing, and they were actually in a lot of trouble for providing misinformation based off of the things that people were clicking on and using. So it's a strange precedent that we're setting to say that TikTok is a security threat, when in reality it's just another social media platform. And it did a great job of building a community for myself and for a lot of other people. And as a younger generation, I feel like we need more news sources that are accessible to everybody, not just to older generations.

[David Fuerst]

Well, Madeline, what did it feel like for you when. When TikTok went dark, I was actually.

[Madeline]

On a train and I felt completely severed. I was literally waiting for midnight, thinking that it would happen at midnight. And at 10pm all of a sudden my feed stops working and I was like, what the heck? So, and then I get the. I get the little message which I screenshotted, saying that, you know, Due to a US law, TikTok is no longer available in this area and we hope that President incoming Donald Trump will fix it. And then, you know, 12 hours later, they've gone onto the meta servers and we get the little blurb thank you so much, Donald Trump. We have fixed the.

[David Fuerst]

And we have to make sure we don't had word on the air right there we had to dump for. But yes, let's pick up on that point, Sapno, where Madeline was comparing TikTok to some other social media.

[Sapna Mashwari]

Yeah, I mean, we hear this from our readers again and again too. And I understand where people are coming from. It's this idea that, you know, just because TikTok is owned by a foreign adversary, does that make what Google and Facebook and these other companies are doing, does it make it okay? Because we know there's so many ills from social media. I think it's a fair point. I think, though, that the US Government and the intelligence officials have really pointed to the concern being the Chinese ownership of TikTok. I mean, what's interesting is they're not trying to get rid of it for. For what it provides Americans necessarily because they're saying if sort of deal can be reached, TikTok can continue in the U.S. it's not an outright ban that some politicians have pursued in the past. But it is interesting. I have found in my coverage of this that, you know, Americans feelings about social media are full of frustration.

[David Fuerst]

We're talking about TikTok. And Richard in Brooklyn. Welcome to all of it.

[Richard]

Hi. I recently got into a very heated debate with my teenager at home about the issue of free speech with regards to the banning of TikTok. And he was adamant that he and a lot of his friends thought that it was a pretty serious, you know, cancellation of the rights of free speech. And I said it wasn't because I felt like, you know, TikTok or this corporation wasn't saying what you could or couldn't say, but more how you could. Could say it. And it kind of. It kind of stuck with me. I didn't know who was.

[Sapna Mashwari]

Who was right. Yeah, I mean, that very question. It makes sense. You guys had such a great and heated debate about it because that is the debate that was in front of the Supreme Court. Essentially. TikTok said that this law totally violated the free speech rights of its users. But what the Supreme Court decided was that they said there was that violation of free speech rights, but that it can be justified in certain circumstances and that the national security concerns and the wording of the law and the demand for the sale actually met those requirements to go against this. But that has been the big debate. And there's many free speech scholars who have written amicus briefs supporting TikTok in the past year and we'll hear another.

[David Fuerst]

Thought from Joe in Manhattan. Welcome to all of it. Perhaps you're, you're saying the ban doesn't go far enough.

[Joe]

I am saying that the ban doesn't go far enough. You know, I think I'm one of those people who've read Infinite Jest and one of the plot narratives is this ultimate entertainment that makes people, like, lose their minds. That's what TikTok is. It makes people lose their minds. And I think it's very easy to control people. And with it. And if the US Government feels that a foreign entity is going to try to manipulate, you know, culture and, or whatever else here in the US Then we have to realize that it's not only being done by a foreign entity, it's being done by a domestic entity. And we should also be looking at banning, you know, Facebook and Instagram or at least seriously curtailing them because they are used to manipulate the population. And I'm, you know, fairly certain X was used in this election cycle.

[David Fuerst]

And Joe, you're not trusting the population to make these decisions for themselves?

[Joe]

Absolutely not. No, no.

[David Fuerst]

And Sapna, do you want to respond to that?

[Sapna Mashwari]

I mean, it's a, I think this is, it's an interesting point. We were pretty familiar with misinformation spreading across all of these platforms, but yeah, I do think free speech scholars make that argument that the users can figure it out for themselves. I mean, it does feel like a real time experiment though, with all of these algorithms and, and what we're seeing and how that's influencing behavior.

[David Fuerst]

We are Talking about the TikTok ban and taking your calls. 212-433-9692. That's 212433, WNYC. Speaking with New York Times business reporter Sapna Marishwari. Thank you for being with us and we'll continue this conversation after a quick break.

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[Sapna Mashwari]

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[David Fuerst]

It's all of it on WNYC. I'm David Fuerst in for Alison Stewart and we're talking about the tick tock ban with New York Times business reporter Sapna Marshwari. And we're taking your calls. 212-443-33-9692. SAPNA the law that Congress passed in April of last year is called the Protecting Americans from Foreign Adversary Controlled Applications Act. I can just about say that who were the lawmakers who were most eager to pass this and what were their reasons?

[Sapna Mashwari]

There was a group of lawmakers largely led by this small committee of China hawks in the House. A couple of those folks actually aren't in Congress anymore. But there's Mike Gallagher from Wisconsin. Steve Scalise was also part of it. And I mean, honestly, this really was a bipartisan effort, though things really heated up soon after the TikTok CEO Sho Chu testified in front of Congress in the spring of 2023. If you recall, it was a pretty fiery grilling and lawmakers realized that TikTok is one of those rare issues that Republicans and Democrats really agreed on. I mean, and that has also drawn a lot of criticism from our readers because there are so many issues out there that we wish Congress could agree on. But TikTok really just became this issue that folks rallied behind. And ultimately it came down to this issue of the Chinese ownership. People just felt they really couldn't trust what might happen behind the scenes with these apps. There's so much we don't understand with social media apps. And yeah, and that's how it came together. It passed remarkably fast, one of the.

[David Fuerst]

Few bipartisan issues and we've been referring to it as a ban. But the law is more complicated than that. Right. What does the law actually stipulate?

[Sapna Mashwari]

Yeah, the law actually demands that ByteDance sell TikTok to a non Chinese owner. And TikTok has argued that that's impossible. It said that one big hurdle to a deal is that the Chinese government might block the export of TikTok's algorithm. That's the technology that makes it so TikToky that presents the videos that people find so compelling and interesting to watch. And so and then of course, it's this global company with operations all over the world. So they've said it's not possible. The government has said, you know, you're posturing and, you know, you could sell if your back's up against a wall. And so now we're in this wait and see, because Trump says he will oversee a sale, but we still don't know what the Chinese government will do and what the terms will be.

[David Fuerst]

Well, let's take another call. 212-433-9692. Adam in Point Pleasant, New Jersey, welcome.

[Adam]

Hi, guys. How you doing? Quick question, because I just don't know the answer. I don't use TikTok, but I do play the online card game Marvel Snap. And a lot of us who play it were surprised to see that game go down along with TikTok because it's also operated, I guess, in some regard, by ByteDance. Does the legislation mean that ByteDance has to sell off just TikTok or all of its American app properties?

[Sapna Mashwari]

My understanding is that the call is for ByteDance to sell TikTok and then those other apps would potentially be able to function because I believe that they were trying to target ideally the social media properties owned by the company. But that's actually interesting. I'll definitely look into that one. I know Lemonade and Cap Cut people have been really upset over, but I haven't talked to folks who've played that game from bytedance.

[David Fuerst]

Okay, we're going to take you. Thank you very much. Yes. And thank you for calling. And let's also hear from Joy Thi calling from Yonkers. Welcome to all of it. You have a question about TikTok as well?

[Joy]

Yeah, hi. Can you hear me?

[David Fuerst]

Yes, I can hear. Hello, welcome.

[Joy]

Hey, thank you. So, yeah, I wanted to point out that TikTok is one of the few places where you could get actual footage. You could hear reporting about what's happening in Gaza from Palestinian reporters on the ground in Gaza. The Israeli government did not allow international reporters in Gaza. So the only way to hear what was actually happening there was from Palestinian reporters who were in Gaza. The Palestinian perspective was almost not covered at all by the mainstream media in the U.S. so I found the TikTok representation reporting on what was happening in Gaza invaluable.

[David Fuerst]

Well, Sapna, what about that? The way conflict is covered. Concerns also about the way conflict is covered.

[Sapna Mashwari]

Yeah, I appreciate this call because the Israel Gaza war is, was really actually played into lawmakers feelings about TikTok. There were lawmakers who directly drafted this bill who pointed to Israel and Palestine coverage on TikTok as, you know, showing Maybe there was propaganda, et cetera. And I think many folks who observed the war coverage there disagreed, of course, but it actually did go into the thinking of the legislation. And I think that's also why many Americans have felt frustrated with this, with this law.

[David Fuerst]

And I imagine a lot of casual TikTok users who, you know, scroll past videos of cute pets and skin care tips and celebrity appreciation, think national security threats. What?

[Sapna Mashwari]

Yeah, of course. Yeah. I think that this conversation in Washington has felt very disconnected from the reality of TikTok for its day to day users.

[David Fuerst]

Let's take another call. Tiffany In Bergen County, New Jersey, welcome.

[Adam]

Hi. I actually have a TikTok shop and I've had it for a few years. It has been very impactful financially for my family and in fact I even called my senator about it, considering that this new government plans with their Doge office to cut services and limit, you know, the way to help an ability to help the American people. And so if that's impending and then you're also taking my financial ability, what do I do? And I honestly don't trust the government officials anyway, the politicians, because they all have investments in that so they can gain financially while you cut my ability to gain.

[Sapna Mashwari]

Yeah, I mean, I think from, I appreciate this perspective too, because I think for many small business owners that I've spoken with, TikTok has provided a new avenue to getting customers and for advertising because, I mean, frankly, meta properties have gotten quite expensive. Ad targeting on Instagram and Facebook has continued to climb and TikTok has offered, you know, a new vehicle. And, and I think that it will certainly reshape the social media landscape if TikTok does go away. But there's clearly a craving from Americans, including business owners, I think, like yourself, for a third space and no longer, you know, a duopoly of Google and Metta.

[David Fuerst]

Let's hear from Andrea in Queens. Andrea, your solution is bring back Vine?

[Madeline]

Yeah, I mean, I just think about Vine a lot during all of these discussions and I feel like it was a real missed opportunity to keep, you know, I don't know, to keep an app like this maybe under US control.

[David Fuerst]

What about that thought? And can you, can you, for those of us who never experienced vine, can you give a quick refresher course?

[Sapna Mashwari]

Oh, yes, vine was kind of the OG short form video app without maybe the Spicy algorithm of TikTok and sort of earlier in the evolution of social media. But yeah, it's come up a lot in the reporting around TikTok, especially with the kind of overnight disappearance of it. People were pretty devastated when vine went away. Yeah. I mean, it's like, I do wonder. It's surprising to me that there hasn't been a really worthy competitor to TikTok in the past five years. Because if you look at changes on Instagram Reels or YouTube, introducing YouTube shorts, there's been no shortage of our country's top engineers, engineers trying to beat it. I mean, you could argue this is why international competition and capitalism is a good thing, because clearly TikTok emerged as this outside thought that Americans couldn't come up with. But I do wonder if there's an American or European or non Chinese competitor that people have in the works that could actually take the spot of TikTok if it does go away in April.

[David Fuerst]

Well, we're talking about the ban and answering your questions about TikTok with Sapna Mashwari, New York Times business reporter, and taking your calls. Let's hear from Kyle in Brooklyn. Welcome to all of it.

[Kyle]

Hello. I just find it strange that everyone's freaking out about a TikTok ban when if you were in China, you wouldn't be able to access Instagram, Facebook or a myriad of other American social media apps, services, whatever, including just general websites like Wikipedia or the Internet Archive. Like. So if anything, I see this as a step towards, like, symmetry between, you know, these, these, I guess social media cold war, I guess you want to call it. Why is this not being looked at or examined at all?

[David Fuerst]

Are you saying America should behave like China to solve this?

[Kyle]

I'm not saying we. I'm not saying we should, but it's just a point that I don't see being brought up at all.

[David Fuerst]

Sapna.

[Sapna Mashwari]

Well, I feel like I actually have included that for a bit of the reporting. And I would add to your list, TikTok itself is actually not available in China. They have a version of the app that they offer that's censored in different ways and has different controls on it, called Doyen. But it's an interesting point. I think the free speech scholars I've talked to have pushed back on that idea that look at how American social media companies are treated in China. What's the big deal? But we're sort of putting TikToks back to the wall here. And what they consistently say is America has different values and principles around speech and freedom of speech and an open Internet than China and authoritarian countries in general. And so it's created this kind of split, I think, in folks who study geopolitics where they've felt that America should behave differently in this situation.

[David Fuerst]

And just thinking globally, what does your reporting tell us about the actual kinds of threats that it poses to have one country's population adopt a social media platform run by another country, where the two countries are often facing off on other issues on the world stage? What's the difference in terms of the kinds of threats that Congress was worried about between Americans using TikTok and, say, Brazilians using Instagram?

[Sapna Mashwari]

I'm not sure. What do you mean?

[David Fuerst]

Well, just, you know, the difference of anyone globally using these kinds of different technologies?

[Sapna Mashwari]

Well, I guess. I mean, in this case. Right. I mean, if the US is, is blocking off TikTok, like, let's say if this ban had actually gone into place on Sunday, I mean, you could argue Americans are missing out on points of view that are being shared elsewhere around the world. But if you believe what the government is saying about the security risks, you could also argue, well, let's say the Chinese government did have the ability to really influence the algorithm and the content people are seeing. You could argue, well, now they've lost this vector in which to do that. I think the concern that the government officials I've talked to have repeatedly brought up is they're worried that an app like TikTok could be used when it comes to conflict. Like, let's say there's an act of conflict over Taiwan or. Or something else.

[David Fuerst]

Let's take one more call here. Patricia in Westfield, New Jersey, welcome.

[Joy]

Yes, thank you. I just wanted to say it's, you know, Trump and Elon Musk pretty much want to buy TikTok, and that's how I feel about it, and it's a bad idea all around. I'll take my response off.

[David Fuerst]

Yeah, okay. What about that thought?

[Sapna Mashwari]

Well, Trump said as much on stage the other day with Larry Ellison. I mean, I think this is where I have found my mind going as well lately, which is, you know, the TikTok may not be banned right now, but if a sale goes through, we don't know what's gonna happen to the platform because Twitter is not the same Twitter that many people signed up for 10 years ago under new ownership. And so I think the question around TikTok is, you know, even if it evades a ban in the US if it's sold, you know, it may not be the TikTok that people signed up for and have enjoyed in the last five years in America.

[David Fuerst]

Well, just to wrap up, as you're covering this story, Sapna, what kinds of things will you be watching for in the next few weeks to indicate how this situation will or may resolve.

[Sapna Mashwari]

Well, I mean, for starters, TikTok and other ByteDance apps still aren't available on the Google and Apple app stores. So I'm really curious to see what happens there, the split we're seeing among tech companies. Curious to see, of course, the sale talks, what emerges, what negotiations are going to look like between not just Trump and potential buyers, but with the Chinese government as well. And then of course, the TikTok creators and vendors, like some of the folks who called in today, its users, what are they thinking? What are they going to do as the sort of deadlines draw closer?

[David Fuerst]

Sapna Mashwari, New York Times business reporter covering TikTok technology and emerging media companies. Thank you for joining us.

[Sapna Mashwari]

Thanks so much.

[David Fuerst]

I'm Ira Flato, host of Science Friday. For over 30 years, our team has been reporting high quality news about science, technology and medicine, news you won't get anywhere else. And now that political news is 24 7, our audience is turning to us to know about the really important stuff in their livescancer climate change, genetic engineering, childhood diseases. Our sponsors know the value of science and health news. For more sponsorship information, visit sponsorship.wnyc.org.