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- [00:18]
A
This is all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. A new neo noir series called the Lowdown just wrapped its first season last night. It's the latest creation from writer and filmmaker Sterlin Harjo, and it stars Ethan Hawke as Lee Raybon, a disheveled, slightly manic, rare bookseller and a part time journalist. Or as he likes to call himself, a truthstorian. Lee cares, like, really cares about outing corruption in his local city of Tulsa and is convinced something is afoot within a powerful local family. Of course, this puts him at odds with just about everyone he runs into, even if they think he might be right. So when a member of this family dies by an apparent suicide just as his brother is preparing a gubernatorial run, Lee Raybon knows for sure something is going on. And he might be right. When two knuckleheads working to try to please their boss lock Lee Raybon in the trunk of a car. Let's listen to a little bit of Ethan Hawke as Lee talking with his editor about being rescued by a private eye named Marty, who. Who has a habit of popping up wherever Lee is. So Lee's a little suspicious.
- [01:32]
B
Those are the guys. Those are the guys that kidnapped me. You're not a kid, Lee. No, the ones they stole me.
- [01:36]
A
Whatever.
- [01:36]
B
They're the guys who popped me in the trunk. I told you, I gave you a gun. How does an adult with a gun get put in the trunk and you don't know about the lever? What lever? There's a lever in all of them, man. In every trunk. You just pop, it opens right up. Yeah, she should have taught me that in school. So how'd you get out? All right. This slick looking black dude, right? Really finely dressed kind of guy who doesn't know the difference between Waylon Jennings and Willie Nelson. I don't know the difference between Waylon. He just appears out of nowhere, Boom, he saves me. What in the magical Negro bull is that? You gotta stop smoking dope. Watching the Legend of Bad. I know how it sounds. All right.
- [02:09]
A
Shot on location in Tulsa, Oklahoma, the Lowdown is action packed and still finds time to include that slice of day to day life that made Reservation Dogs resonate. Which makes sense because it comes from Harjo, creator of Reservation Dogs. In addition to Hawk, the series boasts Kyle MacLachlan, Keith David and Gene Tripplehorn, as well as a terrific performance by an eyepatch wearing Killer Mike. All episodes of the Lowdown are available to watch on Hulu, including last night's finale. Sterlin Harjo. Joined me back in the studio in September. And I began by asking him if the character Lee Raybon was based on a real person.
- [02:47]
B
Yeah, he's inspired by a friend of mine. It's not. I wouldn't call it based because I don't want to pretend to tell someone's life story, but it was inspired by a friend of mine that I worked with at this land. Press was a long form magazine in Tulsa, Oklahoma, and a media company. And I used to make documentaries with a journalist. Well, he was a researcher, journalist all around. Sort of thorn on the side of the establishment. And I made these videos called Tulsa Public Secrets, where I rode around in a van. You know, he talked about things that other people didn't know about Tulsa.
- [03:21]
A
What made him. What was so inspirational about him to you?
- [03:24]
B
He's just one of those people, I think, that, you know, was in deep pursuit of the truth and kind of at any cost. And, you know, it was a point in my time in my life and my career where I was. I was a filmmaker already, but I was struggling to make money and a living. And I think, you know, sometimes, you know, and he. His concern was never making money. It was always just like, fighting for the truth. And sometimes that went against the people with money. And, you know, just. I just admired that. And at the time, I was, you know, I was co parenting my daughter when she was 13, and it was. It was a time that I needed to see people fighting for things that. That was not monetary. That was. It was about something bigger. And it was a time that I needed to feel that as a filmmaker and go, okay, I can do this no matter what. As long as I keep doing what's truthful to me, someday the financial and everything else will catch up. So, yeah, that's an inspiration. It was an inspiration.
- [04:30]
A
That's a hard lesson to learn when you first start out, though.
- [04:33]
B
Yeah. And, you know, first start out, this was like 10 years, 12 years into it, and I was like, you know, it's kind of like looking at my watch, like, how am I going to make a living? You know, And. And, you know, my daughter, I'm really grateful on one hand that she got to watch me be a struggling artist, because I think there's lessons in that. She ended up graduating from Pratt for creative writing. Congratulations. Yeah, thank you. But she's a great writer, but I'm grateful that she saw that. But at the same time, you know, we had crazy living situations. We were like, you know, can we use your house while you're out of town, you know, like. And we always made it fun, but looking back, I'm like, oh man, that could have went south.
- [05:17]
A
Lee, the character, he's just got a lot going on. He knows art, but he doesn't have any money. His ex wife loves him, but only so far. She cares about what happens to him. What is it about this character that endears him to people, to everyone in his life, even if he might drive him a little crazy?
- [05:36]
B
Yeah, I think that they know that he's righteous, right? They know that he is. They know that his pursuits are noble and sometimes he goes about them in crazy ways and sometimes it could get him in trouble. But they believe in him because he believes in the truth so much, I think. And I think that, you know, they kind of have his back because of that. At the same time, I mean, it's fun to be around someone like that, you know, I think that, I think that all of us are a little bit like that. I think that, you know, a human being is a very complex creature and, you know, there are all these sides to us. But I think that if, you know, Lee Raybon is honest with the people around him and I think there's a level of respect that he gains because of that.
- [06:26]
A
His ID kind of goes, right? It just goes. And then he thinks about after and he's like, oh, maybe I shouldn't.
- [06:32]
B
Yeah, exactly. I mean, like, you know, he always knows when he's overstepped, but he doesn't ever stop himself from overstepping.
- [06:39]
A
He does have a tenderness towards his daughter, his 13 year old daughter. What does that relationship mean to him?
- [06:47]
B
I think that's who the work is for. That's what he's doing it for. He needs to show her that there are things that are bigger than us, that are noble to fight for. And especially today, you know, I think that young people need to see that. And you know, the last thing that he would want is to be made a martyr out of it. But it's still, you know, that's the, that's the sort of tightrope you walk. Because he still wants to inspire her. And I think also help, help make the future better. You know, in one's lifetime you see things come and go and you see darkness and light. And I think we're all trying to get towards the light. And you know, sometimes you have to take some hits doing that.
- [07:38]
A
So it's interesting because Lee is such a character. This could have been the adventures of Lee each episode, but it isn't. There's More of a story there. When did the story come to you?
- [07:51]
B
I don't know. You know, Oklahoma and Tulsa, Oklahoma in general is a really interesting place. I mean, it's like, you know, at one point it was called Indian Territory, and a lot of tribes were moved there. My tribes were marched on the Trail of Tears there by force. And then, you know, it has this diversity to it that not a lot of states in the middle of America or down south have. And I think people would be very surprised by that. And that also is a collision of culture and backgrounds. And no one had ever explored that. Or if they did, it wasn't right in my mind. And so I wanted to really just tell this story that took place and kind of was a representative of the past and the present of Tulsa, Oklahoma, in all of my. Whether it's Reservation Dogs or this. You know, I'm not interested in just one person. Like, I was raised by such a large community, and I'm interested in all the characters that make that community up. So Reservation Dogs was about a community as much as it was about kids. I think this is about a community in Tulsa as much as it's about Lee Raybon. So, yeah, I don't know. And I've always just loved the genre of. And I wanted to kind of see if I could do it.
- [09:14]
A
Well, it was kind of cool. Cause I thought it was Tim Blake Nelson, and he's from Tulsa. Right. I knew in college and I thought it was interesting because his family is well known in Tulsa as well. And I wondered if you guys had conversations, what those were like.
- [09:30]
B
No, I literally offered him the part. He knew my work. Obviously, I knew his work. You know, at one point, I think we were both on the board of the Circle Cinema in Tulsa, and we had one conversation and he agreed to do it. You know, he was just excited to do it. And it wasn't ne, it was more about. I mean, like, the whole show is full of Oklahoma and Tulsa people, you know, like Jeannie Tripplehorn and Tracy Letts, you know. Yeah. And so it was exciting to. I don't know, it was exciting for me to get these. Get this kind of crew of people that had, you know, knew what I was doing, but also had done their own thing and were very well respected actors and bring them back home, you know, and have them play these parts.
- [10:23]
A
I'm wondering how did you catch the sort of the history of the place, the history of Tulsa? Because even if you don't know that much about it, you watch the first couple Episodes, and you're like, oh, I kind of get this place a little bit.
- [10:35]
B
Yeah. I don't know. You know, I think that in the work that people do in journalism, you know, you're sort of. That's what you're dealing in, right? You are working with the past, and you're working with the future, and you're working with the present. And I think that that's always there. And they're all. They're not separate. They're all kind of. They're all influencing each other. And that's why it's very important, I think, that we know the truth of our history, you know, and we don't hide the truth of our history to get to fill our own narrative or whatever, because it influences what happens in the present. You know, you learn from your mistakes of history. And, you know, in somewhere like Tulsa, Oklahoma, I mean, for instance, the Tulsa race massacre, you know, that was something that was very much kind of swept under the rug and not talked about. I didn't know about it as a young. As a child, and it took me to move to Tulsa and kind of have people that were, you know, interested in history and talking about it. And in the last 10 years, you know, and when I worked for this land press, we. We did stories on the race massacre, and it was all about, like, this idea of telling the truth about your past because you can heal from it. There is no healing without truth. And you have to face it. You have to hold a mirror up to yourself so you can see your flaws. And. And you also celebrate what's good as well. And that's something that, in my work, whether it's Reservation Dogs or the Lowdown, I try to do myself, you know, and I. I'm a believer in, you know, like, looking at things both from the light and the dark side and trying to learn from them and heal from them. And. And I. And I think looking at something more holistically like that is. Is just truer, you know, it's more true to. True to life and true to, you know, the past and everything.
- [12:23]
A
That's something some politicians could look at.
- [12:24]
B
Exactly. I think so, yeah, if they're listening.
- [12:26]
A
Do I still have a job? Yes, I do. My guest is Sterling Harjo. We're talking about his new show, the Lowdown on fx. You're working with Ethan Hawke. He was great in Reservation Dogs. This show really wouldn't work without him.
- [12:40]
B
Right.
- [12:42]
A
First of all, what do you enjoy working with Ethan Hawke about? He's been around forever. He only gets Better, in my opinion.
- [12:47]
B
You know, we have a real close bond. He and I, actually friends, and we started working together as writers. Before we were adapting this project of his, there was a graphic novel together. We were introduced by a mutual friend, Martin Sensmeier, and I don't know, we just hit it off. You know, I just fell in love with him because it's like he's so interested in art and music and. And. And film and. And we just picked up, like, as soon as we met. It was like being in the middle of a conversation with an old friend, you know, and that conversation hasn't stopped with us. Whether we're texting each other or running into each other on press or at a screening or just hanging out, you know, we just keep continuing this conversation that feels like we're always catching up. And it usually revolves around art, literature, music of some sort. We're sending each other tracks, you know, to listen to. And, you know, whenever we're filming, it's just hanging out with one of your best friends. We have, like, guitars on set, and in between setups, we, you know, play songs and sing. And also with Tim, like Nelson, he had his mandolin on set, and we. I'd play songs with him, and we'd play songs and sing. But with Ethan, I mean, I just respect his work so much. He cares about the craft, he cares about story, he cares about art in a way that I just identify with, and I just wanted to be a part of that. You know, I want to work with him. You know, I think he's one of our. Our great actors.
- [14:19]
A
You know, I just realized with him and with Tim and is interesting. And they have their teeth.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And it makes it. It's. It's. It's perfect.
- [14:28]
B
Oh, yeah, they do. Yeah, exactly. You mean. You mean like their teeth?
- [14:31]
A
Teeth. Like, they don't have veneers?
- [14:32]
B
No, exactly. No. It's so refreshing. Right, right.
- [14:36]
A
It's like. It's like a real face.
- [14:37]
B
Yeah, it's great. It's like, wow. It's a real human being.
- [14:40]
A
Real human being. Killer. Mike has a really fun role in this.
- [14:44]
B
I'm so proud of him.
- [14:46]
A
Okay, tell me why you're proud of him.
- [14:47]
B
I'm just proud of him. You know, he came on set and he was, you know, he was. He was nervous, but he took it very seriously.
- [14:53]
A
Oh, interesting.
- [14:54]
B
You know, I mean, he was like, on his script, you know, and he would get really down on himself. And the way that I work is that, you know, once we start filming, the script goes out the window. And we know what it's about, and we can play. And it's kind of like jazz with Mike. I mean, he was so. You know, he was really making sure he got every line, which I respected.
- [15:14]
A
That's really sweet.
- [15:15]
B
I respected that. And he was like, look, there's a lot of rappers that act and they look stupid. I just don't want to look stupid. I was like, I will never let you look stupid. And what was great at the premiere the other day, he gave me a big hug, and he was like, man, thanks for making. Thanks for not letting me look stupid. He's very proud of what he did, and so am I. He's so good. And he's. You know, for someone that's never really done it before, you want to come back and see more of him. Like, you can't wait to kind of get more of the character Cyrus. And he's great in it.
- [15:45]
A
He's got one of the lines that makes me laugh. Oh, yeah, well, meaning white men, the saddest of the bunch.
- [15:53]
B
What does that mean, a white man that cares? Saddest of the bunch is the line. And it's just, you know, I think that because of the brave, you know, the bravery of a good white man, you know, will get you in trouble, you know, get themselves hurt, you know, and it's just that, you know, you know, even in the scary movies are the first through the door. You know, let's see what's happening. You know, we're going to figure this out. I'm going to. I'm going to handle the situation. And they always get hurt, you know, and it's just like. I just think that he's recognizing that, and it's. You know, you're just like, man, I love you, but damn it, you're going to get us all hurt.
- [16:36]
A
A recent article that was about you and about your work, it said that you mentioned having the art of the hang with the reservation dogs. It's sort of like a genre into itself. First of all, what do you like about that genre, the art of the Hang?
- [16:49]
B
I just think that, you know, there's so much that we don't pay attention to in our lives. There's so much that you can learn from people when they're not kicking in a door or in the middle of some monologue. It's like, what is your behavior when people aren't looking? And I think that that is the hang, right? That's when you're. That's when you're just there being And I. And I love that. I love paying attention to that. Jim Jarmish, the filmmaker, I'm going to not get this quote right at all. But he said something like, you know, a lot of films are interested in, you know, when you get on a bus and where you end up, and that's what they show. He's. I'm more interested on waiting on the bus. You know, what are the characters doing when they're waiting on the bus? And I think that it's just something that I'm interested in, too. I grew up in a really rural area, small town, and that is, you know, life is the hang there. It's like there's nothing to do sometimes, and you have to tell stories and you have to make art and you have to invent your fun. And I grew up like that. I just. I don't know, you know, watching, like, let's say, Linklater's films. I love, you know, that. That, you know, Dazed and Confused is the ultimate hang. I mean, like, I could just watch that movie. I could have it going in the background all the time. And that felt very much like my life as, you know, growing up at Holdenville, Oklahoma. So I'm just attracted to that. And how do characters respond? How do characters act when someone's not watching?
- [18:20]
A
The Lowdown is different, though, because there's so much action happening in the Lowdown. What was it like to switch gears, or is there a hang in the Lowdown?
- [18:31]
B
Yeah, I think there's a hang. I mean, you have the neighborhood. You have, you know, where he kind of goes back to all the time. But it's. Obviously, it's a genre. It's more of a genre piece. It's in the sort of genre of noir, film noir and. Or neo noir, whatever you want to call it. But there is a hang to it. And I think that, you know, it's a. The trick with this one was more of a balance of, you know, those moments of breathing happen less frequently than reservation dogs, but they're there. And I don't know, I think it keeps it grounded in the community, and it kind of makes you feel the specifics of Tulsa and being with those characters and what it's like. And, you know, you can taste the coffee in the diner, you know, and I think that all of that, I just. I don't know, it's just what I'm interested in sort of as a filmmaker.
- [19:17]
A
I like the graphic design.
- [19:19]
B
Yeah.
- [19:20]
A
It's like sort of 70s.
- [19:21]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [19:22]
A
The way it comes through. What's that about?
- [19:24]
B
I think, you know, it's like I have to acknowledge all of the influences and a lot of those are from the 70s, you know, or influenced by those from the 70s, like the Long Goodbye, you know, Robert Altman's film, I, I, I, you know, that is a film that another film I could just put on the background all day. And I feel like I wanted to be inside of that movie and I want to hang, you know, and, you know, instead of like, act like I'm. My job is to, you know, especially with genre and something that's been established, I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel. I am acknowledging my influences and then trying to do something, you know, new with it. And if I do that, then I feel like I succeed.
- [20:09]
A
That was my conversation with the Lowdown creator Sterling Harjo, who is also the man behind the Peabody Award winning series Reservation Dogs. You can catch all episodes of the series streaming now on on Hulu. Coming up tomorrow, Oscar winning actor Ariana DeBose. She's starring in the revival of the musical the Baker's Wife. And a very important issue on tomorrow's show, do you wait until Thanksgiving to put up your winter holiday decorations or do you drag them out before Halloween? Coming up, it's time for another episode of our small stakes Big Opinions debate series. I'm Alison Stewart. I appreciate you listening and I appreciate you and I will meet you back here next time. For 140 years, MultiCare has been in Washington prioritizing long term solutions, partnering with local communities and expanding access to care. Together, we're building a healthier future. Learn more@mycare.org Since WNYC's first broadcast in 1924, we've been dedicated to creating the kind of content we know the world needs. In addition to this award winning reporting, your sponsorship also supports inspiring storytelling and extraordinary music that is free and accessible to all. To get in touch and find out more, visit sponsorship.wnyc.org.