The Murky Future of TikTok

Summary

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Podcast Summary: All Of It – "The Murky Future of TikTok"

Host: Koosha Navadar (in for Alison Stewart), WNYC
Guest: Sapna Maheshwari, Tech Reporter, The New York Times
Date: May 14, 2024
Episode Theme: Exploring the uncertain fate of TikTok in the U.S. in light of congressional action, political motivations, concerns about digital sovereignty, and the platform's cultural and economic impact.

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the legislation targeting TikTok, examining whether the U.S. is moving toward an outright ban or a forced sale to non-Chinese ownership. Host Koosha Navadar and guest Sapna Maheshwari break down the complexities behind the TikTok debate, with perspectives from creators, parents, and everyday users. The conversation unpacks political motivations, the broader implications for the creator economy, data privacy concerns, potential workarounds, and the societal role of TikTok. Listener experiences and opinions add texture and nuance to the discussion.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Legal Reality: Ban or Forced Sale?

• [03:43] Sapna Maheshwari explains: Congress passed a law requiring ByteDance (TikTok’s parent company) to sell TikTok to a non-Chinese owner by January 2025. The ban targets ownership from China, Russia, Iran, and North Korea. If a sale doesn’t occur, the app will be banned from U.S. platforms.
  • Quote: “What Congress actually passed is a demand for the company to sell to non-Chinese ownership… If a deal is not reached, this app will be banned in the US.” — Sapna Maheshwari [03:43]

2. What Would a Ban Mean for Users?

• [04:35] Sapna: The app would stop updating and disappear from app stores. Old versions would “degrade over time.” This mirrors India’s 2020 TikTok ban, where the app becomes non-functional.
  • Quote: “It would basically stop functioning properly. The app would stop updating… it would just kind of degrade over time.” — Sapna Maheshwari [04:35]

3. Real-Life Impact: Listener Calls

• Margaret from Long Island [05:45]: TikTok is a family bonding tool—morning videos with grandchildren, not publicly posted, but cherished memories. Would “miss it terribly” if banned.
• Michael from Brooklyn [11:10]: Sees a possible silver lining—a national “reset” away from endless video consumption. Hopes for a break to “listen to each other… listen to the radio a little bit more.”
  • Quote: “It can feel very overwhelming and ultimately leave you kind of confused and isolated…a ban would honestly give the country at the very least a moment to take a quick breath.” — Michael [11:17]

4. Election-Year Timing and Political Motivations

• [07:25] Sapna: The ban deadline is after the 2024 election. Lawmakers needed legislation that could “hold up in a big court battle.” TikTok is suing the U.S. government on constitutional grounds (free speech).
  • Quote: “They had to craft something that would hold up in a big court battle, which we’ve already seen TikTok sue…” — Sapna Maheshwari [07:25]
• [08:36] Koosha asks: Could the TikTok issue fade after the election? Sapna says it’s possible but “anything could happen.”

5. Potential Workarounds and Global Precedents

• [09:38] Sapna: Users might try VPNs (virtual private networks) to access TikTok. Reference to Montana’s attempted state-level ban, which failed in court, but similar user workaround talk occurred.
• The platform’s easy accessibility fuels its impact (and, for some, their dependence).

6. TikTok’s Unique Influence — Beyond Other Social Media

• [15:43] Sapna: TikTok’s “For You” feed is algorithmically tailored, making it different from Facebook or Instagram. Lawmakers fear the Chinese government could manipulate TikTok’s feed to favor certain narratives or suppress others—especially on sensitive geopolitical topics.
  • Quote: “What sets TikTok apart…is its ‘For You’ feed…tailored to what you’re interested in and introducing new trends and things. That’s part of why it’s become so influential in culture.” — Sapna Maheshwari [15:43]
• The potential risk: Foreign actors could—in theory—use TikTok’s algorithm for targeted misinformation or propaganda.

7. Cultural, Generational, and Political Layers

• Multiple listeners (via text/calls) argue that the ban is inconsistent (“hypocritical”) given privacy/data concerns exist with all big platforms.
• Younger users—like Jose’s 16-year-old daughter [18:33]—see TikTok as a personally meaningful space, but parents observe significant emotional investment.
• [21:09] Sapna: Steve Mnuchin’s interest in buying TikTok is one of the few publicized bids. The sale is complicated by Chinese export laws and the app’s proprietary algorithm.

8. Content Suppression vs. National Security

• Multiple callers/texts question whether national security is the real motive, citing TikTok’s prominence in the pro-Palestinian movement and generational divides over access to information.
  • Quote: “TikTok has been leading the way with the ceasefire movement…Who wants to buy TikTok? Otherwise they wouldn’t sell it, they’d want to shut it down.” — Listener text [20:27]
• Sapna contextualizes the role of global events (e.g., the Israel-Hamas war) in fueling public and legislative attention on the platform’s influence over public opinion.

9. Political Influence: TikTok’s Power Demonstrated

• [24:28] Sapna: TikTok launched an in-app prompt encouraging users to call Congress, resulting in offices being “flooded with calls.” Lawmakers saw this as further proof of the app’s potent political influence.
  • Quote: “TikTok can have this political influence in a way that…could be used incorrectly in the wrong hands.” — Sapna Maheshwari [24:28]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Sapna Maheshwari [03:43]:
  “What Congress actually passed is a demand for the company to sell to non-Chinese ownership… If a deal is not reached, this app will be banned in the US.”

• Margaret from Long Island [05:50]:
  “Every morning I watch my grandchildren… for the last two years, we make it. We do a TikTok… I am treasuring all of these mornings… I would really miss it terribly.”

• Michael from Brooklyn [11:17]:
  “It can feel very overwhelming and ultimately leave you kind of confused and isolated… a ban would honestly give the country at the very least a moment to take a quick breath.”

• Sapna Maheshwari [15:43]:
  “What sets TikTok apart from Instagram and other social platforms is its For You feed… that's part of why it's become so influential in culture... it’s more of a place of discovery.”

• Listener Text [20:27]:
  “Such a naive discussion. Guys, this is all about censoring content. TikTok has been leading the way with the ceasefire movement.”

• Sapna Maheshwari [24:28]:
  “Lawmakers… felt that it was, you know, showing that TikTok can have this political influence in a way that could be used incorrectly in the wrong hands.”

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Important Timestamps

• [03:43] – What Congress passed: forced sale, definition of ban
• [04:35] – What an actual ban would look like for users
• [05:50] – Listener (Margaret) on family TikTok usage
• [11:17] – Listener (Michael) on social media fatigue and silver linings
• [15:43] – TikTok’s algorithm and why it’s uniquely influential
• [18:33] – Listener (Jose) on teens' emotional investment in TikTok
• [20:27] – Listeners text about censorship and content suppression
• [21:09] – Steve Mnuchin, complications of selling TikTok
• [24:28] – TikTok’s “call your congressperson” feature and its political ramifications

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Overall Tone and Takeaway

The conversation is balanced—combining sobering concerns over propaganda, privacy, and political manipulation with real stories of creative expression, family connection, and digital community. The palpable uncertainty felt by creators and users is matched by skepticism toward the true political motivations of lawmakers, all set against a backdrop of rapid cultural and technological change. Despite divergent views, there’s an acknowledgment that TikTok is both scapegoat and trendsetter—a platform at the center of something much bigger: a global conversation about data, democracy, and digital life.

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Transcript

[A]

Listener support, WNYC Studios.

[B]

This is all of it. I'm Kusha Navadar in for Alison Stewart. Forgive me, listeners, but we gotta start this next conversation with some music from Ke$. So the social media app TikTok is in fact on the clock, thanks to a bipartisan push in Congress and President Biden's support for a law that's banning the video sharing platform. So under this new law, the TikTok party might actually stop as early as next January if the platform isn't under new American ownership. By then, it could be banned from Apple and Google's app stores. It would become illegal to host TikTok's content in the US which, according to some tech watchers, would effectively drive the app into the ground. U.S. lawmakers say they're concerned about privacy and the potential for election interference. Those are two issues that have been concerns across the social media landscape, including with American tech companies. But TikTok has a relationship with China or as lawmakers say, when they want to revive cold war anxieties, the Chinese, Chinese Communist Party. It's that affiliation with China that's brought momentum to this push against TikTok, where efforts to address the same issues at American companies haven't been brought with the same fervor. And let's not forget, it's an election year. So the politics of appearing, quote, unquote, tough on China, they're front and center. But in the background, thousands of TikTok users have been left worried about the future. The digital creator economy. It's a $250 billion industry and it's expected to double the next three years. According to a report by Goldman Sachs. A significant number of creators rely on TikTok as their main source of income. And for others, it's been a key part of marketing their products and small businesses. And for everyone on the platform, the new law and potential bans, they spell uncertainty. So joining me now to unpack all of that is Sapna Maheshwari, who is a reporter covering TikTok and other tech news for the New York Times. Hi, SAPN.

[A]

Hi.

[B]

And listeners, how would you be impacted if TikTok goes away? Give us a call at 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692. Maybe you're a full time content creator or maybe TikTok is just one of the platforms you use as a marketing tool. We're here to hear your stories. We're at 212-433-9692. We can also take questions about the business side or the politics of TikTok. For Times reporter Sapna Maheshwari. Or your experience engaging with current events on the platform and how your news diet might change if TikTok is banned. So give us a call. We're at 212-433-9692. Or very appropriately for this segment. You can reach us on social. We're at all of it wnyc. Okay, so Sapna, let's get everyone on the same page. What Congress passed is. Is ban the right word for it? Is Congress aiming to ban TikTok or force a sale? That is language used by a number of outlets reporting on the story, including yours.

[A]

Yeah. So what Congress actually passed is a demand for the company to sell to non Chinese ownership. And there's actually a group of four countries that they say cannot own TikTok. It includes China, Russia, Iran and North Korea. And they've basically given TikTok this deadline to January. It's a basically a nine month deadline. There's a chance that the President could extend it to a year if there's a deal underway. But the, what they're holding over TikTok's head is if a deal is not reached, this app will be banned in.

[B]

The US So let's say that the earliest that the ban on TikTok will go into effect is January 2025. That ban, what does that mean? Does that mean that the app would disappear from people's phones or that accounts will be disabled? What would that look like?

[A]

It would basically stop functioning properly. The app would stop updating. People wouldn't be able to download it again even if they used VPNs to sort of access the app. I mean, what really fuels this app is how many people have it on their phones, how easy it is to log into. The fact that it's sort of a daily visit for so many users. So that would all go away and it would just kind of degrade over time. And we saw this happen actually in India in 2020. I actually went there for a family wedding last year in an open TikTok and it was just sort of frozen on the last video I had seen.

[B]

Oh wow. So it, it still, I mean it didn't open. You could open it on your phone, but it had no functionality. Hey listen listeners, how would you be impacted if TikTok goes away? Give us a call at 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692. Maybe you're a Full time content creator. Maybe you just love going on TikTok or you use it to market your small business. We're here you 212-433-9692. SOPNOTE we have our first caller. Here's Margaret from Long Island. Hi Margaret, welcome to the show.

[C]

Oh, thank you.

[B]

So how would TikTok span affect you, Margaret?

[C]

It would affect me because every morning I watch my grandchildren from Monday through Friday and every morning Monday through Friday for the last two years, we make it. We do a tick tock. My grandson sets up a tripod. We either play indoor soccer or sports or dance or laugh or climb the stairs and see who could jump up the stairs quicker. So I would miss that. We never publish them. It's just for my own benefit. They put it on my and I don't broadcast it under my own id but I can't tell you that I am treasuring all of these mornings that we do together every single day. So I that way I would really miss it terribly.

[B]

That's lovely.

[C]

Other than that I don't really watch. Yes. I don't really watch or view others online. I just watch hours and it's a great memory. I would cherish them and show them in 10 years. They probably wouldn't believe I saved them if I could. So that's how I would do it.

[B]

Margaret, thank you so much for that call. We really appreciate it. If you're listening right now and you have an opinion about how the ban, the potential ban of TikTok would affect you and your life, whether you're, you know, a content creator or you make videos with your grandchildren every morning, give us a call, send us a text. We're at 212-433-969. That's 212-433-W N Y C. You know Sapna, given the timeline, no matter what, TikTok is going to be around this election season. So if foreign interference in US politics is the big concern for lawmakers, was there anything preventing them from setting the timeline to before this incredibly consequential election?

[A]

I think that so Basically, I mean TikTok and the US government have been in negotiations for several years around a security plan that would address the concern that the government has expressed right around the data around the propaganda issue. But the government has known that this is a really steep challenge, that this could potentially infringe on Americans First Amendment rights, that it will be tough to take this app away or to really force ByteDance to sell it to a non Chinese owner. And so I think the reason we're seeing this now and not earlier before the election, is that the people who worked on this bill, including the Justice Department, you know, members of the Biden administration, as well as all these lawmakers, they knew that they had to craft something that would hold up in a big court battle, which we've already seen TikTok sue, to say that this law is unconstitutional. But the. The effort to, I guess, work on this bill and to draft the law came together in such a way that I don't think it would have been possible for them to pass something before the election that would hold up in court.

[B]

Do you see the possibility that this bipartisan move would actually get dropped once the election is over and the political potency, I guess, of appearing tough on China dissipates until midterms?

[A]

I think it's definitely a possibility. I think anything could happen. It's definitely in TikTok's interest to sort of delay as much as the company can, you know, in the event that another administration potentially, or just another sort of cycle puts the attention away from them. But there is a lot of broad support for this action. So, I mean, this will still be fought in courts until then. So it's definitely hard to say if. If it changes.

[B]

Yeah. And before you had mentioned VP ends, are there any whispers on platform about how to circumvent a potential ban? I guess, to begin with, quickly explaining what a VPN is, is for listeners, but then also if there are workarounds that. That would exist.

[A]

Yeah, so people have suggested in the past, you know, that you could use a virtual private network, basically different forms of technology, to work around a ban of the app. And this actually all came up last year because the state of Montana tried to you implement a statewide ban of TikTok for a lot of the similar reasons that lawmakers have brought up at the federal level. And ultimately a judge decided in that case that, you know, Montana didn't really have the right to try and ban TikTok, but when that discussion was underway, they were similarly going to target the app stores and set up a sort of finding structure to get rid of the app. And a lot of people said that, you know, they would try and find workarounds to essentially access TikTok despite the law.

[B]

Listeners, if you're just joining us, we're talking to Sapna Maheshwari, who is a reporter covering TikTok and other tech news for the New York Times. We're talking about the TikTok ban that is laid down by the US government now it is aiming for January 2025. Either TikTok will be sold to an American entity or it is going to be banned in the United States. We're taking your calls. If a TikTok ban would aff your life, especially if you're a content creator, I'd love to hear from some content creators out there how this might affect them right now. How would you be impacted? Give us a call, send us a text. We're at 212-433-9692. We've got Michael in Brooklyn on the line. Hi, Michael, welcome to the show.

[D]

Hi there. Thanks so much for taking the call.

[B]

Absolutely. How would TikTok ban affect you?

[D]

Yeah, I wanted to keep this quick. I remember growing up with. I'm a mid-20s kind of guy, and I remember growing up with vine and seeing these things and being like, okay.

[E]

Six seconds of video.

[D]

I can get into that. And then TikTok came along and these videos just get longer and longer and longer. And I think me and my friends have been talking about this a lot. We're just craving a kind of formalized break. There's this. It's nice to have all of these colors and all this material and all this connection, but it can feel very overwhelming and ultimately leave you kind of confused and isolated at the same time. And I think a band would honestly give the country at the very least a moment to take a quick breath. I know it'd just be like a week or something and the next app would be on the way. But a quick breath and say, what are we doing here? Why don't we listen to each other? Let's listen to the radio a little bit more. So that's my thought.

[B]

I gotta thank you for that plug for the radio. I appreciate that, Michael Sapna. I hear him talking about that forced step away. In some ways, though, what TikTok is doing exists on other platforms as well that are owned by American companies.

[A]

Yeah, I think that what once TikTok started really blowing up in the US in 2020, you saw Facebook and Google really try and get in on the action. YouTube Shorts has gotten a lot bigger Instagram reels. For my fellow millennials, that is probably the way that they consume TikToks. And I think you kind of see, I mean, even the New York Times, like, on our homepage, we've started doing vertical video to, you know, help sum up some of our stories and encourage readers to. To check out the text. And so I think TikTok sort of popularized a form like a medium that people do find appealing. But it's, I mean, it's an interesting, I mean, what I hear in that caller's comments I think reflect Another issue that TikTok is facing here, which is, you know, finding allies to support the app. This is coming at a time where there is a lot of concern right now, I think, in society around apps and what they're doing to our minds and how young people are affected. For example, the book I think the Anxious Generation has been really popular with parents. I feel like I talk to a lot of parents who have a lot of concerns around screen time and how to navigate this world. And so I think that has, you know, made it tough in some ways for TikTok to argue its case because I think it's happening at a time where maybe parents and society teachers are a little worried around not just TikTok but Instagram and YouTube and you know, what they're doing.

[B]

We have to take a quick break. We're here with Sapna Maheshwari who is a reporter covering TikTok and other tech news for the New York Times listeners. If you have an opinion about the TikTok ban, give us a call. We're at 212-433-9692. We'll take a quick break and we'll be right back after this is all of it on wnyc. I'm Koosha Navadar in for Alison Stewart. We're talking about TikTok's ban that has been, you know, put into effect by the US government saying either sell TikTok ByteDance to a American owned entity by January 2025 or shut TikTok down in the US we're talking to Sapn Maheshwari who is a reporter covering TikTok and other tech news for the New York Times listeners. We're also taking your calls. If you have an opinion about the effect that TikTok's ban would have on your life, especially if you're a content creator. Want to plug that one more time? Give us a call, send us a text. We're at 212-433-9692 or you can text us. We're at 212-433,9692. Can also send us a message on social. We're at all of it wnyc. You know, Sapna America lawmakers have been PA the situation, like the app is being controlled by the Chinese government and their concerns are about election interference and data privacy. I'd love to understand exactly how the technology could facilitate those perceived threats. Can you paint a more specific picture of what kinds of manipulation are even possible if a government were to use TikTok for nefarious purposes?

[A]

Yeah. And to be clear, the government has not handed over, you know, very specific proof that this has happened. But what sets TikTok apart from Instagram and other social platforms is it's for you feed. So for those who haven't used the app before, its main draw is when you open it up, it really pays attention to what you like, what your interests are, what videos you watch, when you stop them, when you skip them. And then it starts feeding you a sort of tailored stream of videos that might catch your interest. And people really like it because it is delivering content to you that's not based on your friends. It's not, you know, videos posted by your high school classmates or whatever the case may be. It's. It's really tailor tailored to what you're interested in and introducing kind of new trends and things like that to you. That's part of why it's become so influential in culture. It's. It's more of a place for. Of discovery. And while that's really great, you know, if you're looking for new makeup trends or cooking videos or new music to listen to, what the government has found is it can be a little bit scarier for them when it comes to news or information around current events where, you know, they feel that there is this risk that the Chinese government could sort of lean on ByteDance to say, hey, you know, we. This is how we feel about Taiwan or protests in Hong Kong or, you know, other things that are important to our government. Can you perhaps suppress information about these things or. Or serve a certain point of view on the algorithm? And, and this is. This is the concern that has come up again and again with lawmakers.

[B]

You know, we're just getting some texts that I want to read here. One of them is, will you please stop saying the TikTok ban has been put into effect. There is nothing in effect yet. So just to be clear with listeners, no ban yet. The United States government has said January 2025 is a deadline to sell to an American entity or to have that ban put into effect. We also have another text that says, I have mixed feelings about the TikTok ban. It seems blatantly hypocritical for our government to force a sale of this company and not every other social media company that is equally damaging to our society. I think they are targeting TikTok because there is the most pro Palestinian content on there compared to other platform. I do worry about how TikTok harms kids and teens. I don't know how serious of a national security threat it really is or if that's just a scapegoat. Glad you have these discussions that make us all informed. Thank you all so much for sending in those texts and being a part of the conversation. We've also got Jose, a caller from North Lee, New Jersey. Hi, Jose, welcome to the show.

[E]

Hi, thank you for having me. I'm actually in Nutley, New Jersey, sorry, on Essex county. And I'm calling not as a content creator, unfortunately, although I used to create content on TikTok. I'm a musician, violinist and opera singer. But I'm calling it to talk about my daughter's usage of TikTok. My daughter is 16, 16 and a half. And one of the very interesting things that happened recently in talking to her about the possible ban, another imminent man was the idea of, well, so how will you be? Because as we all know, a lot of kids and teenagers have created what one could call a relationship with this app. They have invested time, they have invested exploration time, research. For some it's just random doom scrolling. And for someone like my daughter, she actually invests actual time, valuable time sometimes that I wish she didn't. Researching certain content, finding out what's actual facts and what isn't, to the point where there's respect toward the app. And when I asked her how you're going to be and she blatantly said, oh, we're going to be fine, it's good to be totally okay. And I just did not believe her at all because I just see the investment, I see the emotional investment, time investment, and again, a level of respect that I almost wish they didn't have towards a platform like that. But at the same time, in a case like hers is because she has actually, you know, put the time to make sure that she finds content that is actually, you know, that is actually truth, you know, that is, that is usable, that is, that is useful. And you know, in that sense I respect her choices. But on the other hand, it's like, I don't know, she could do with that.

[B]

Jose, I hear you and we're gonna have to pause you there just for time, but thank you so much for bringing that idea of, you know, your daughter looking for platforms that she can be on. We got some more text that I just want to read out. One says, such a naive discussion. Guys, this is all about censoring content. TikTok has been leading the way with the ceasefire movement. Look, who wants to buy TikTok, otherwise they wouldn't sell it, they'd want to shut it down. And Sapna, I'd love your insight in here, because there is the question of who really wants to buy TikTok. Who's been talking about this as individuals or maybe larger companies looking to absorb. I know that there was some talk before about Steve Mnuchin looking to assemble some kind of buyer. Can you tell us more about that?

[A]

That, yeah, Steven Mnuchin has probably come up as one of the few folks that have said they'd like to lead a consortium to buy the app. We haven't seen a whole lot, though, on that end, in part because there's a lot of uncertainty around whether the technology that kind of fuels TikTok's recommendations, if the Chinese government would actually allow that to be exported, and how, you know, ByteDance might be able to license its technology or not to a new buyer. So I think there's a lot of uncertainty around what a sale could look like. But I mean, that text is interesting because I do think that this is a big piece of the concerns around this sale. And it's. TikTok didn't actually specify this in their lawsuit challenging the law, but they're, you know, October 7th, and the Israel Hamas war has really galvanized lawmakers towards creating this law. It was definitely not the driving, the only driving force. I think that, that if you look at the history of bans on government devices, there's been a lot of concerns around TikTok, but it's been very much a part of the narrative and it's certainly created, you know, it's showed how propaganda could potentially circulate on, on the platform. And I think that this law, you know, passing at a time when there is a lot of generational divide over how the US Is responding to what's happening overseas. Like, if you just look at the comments On President Biden's TikTok account, you will see that there is a lot of concern that this law is related to how young people are getting information about the war.

[B]

And just to remind listeners, Steve Mnuchin is the former treasury secretary under Trump who is talking about putting together a bid, or there was reporting putting together a bid to buy TikTok from ByteDance, we have Aaron in East Meadow, New York. Hi, Aaron. Welcome to the show.

[F]

Hi, thank you. I just wanted to make a point that the alleged reason for banning TikTok on security grounds is disingenuous at best because a lot of or all social media companies based in the United States have been granted virtually carte blanche to use and sell third party, to sell data to third parties since Trump. And not to mention the Patriot act, which had basically given our government carte blanche to spy on its own citizens and look into what kind of insights they can get from us without due process. So why should we be worried about a foreign government's access to what kind of videos we like when our own government can do the same thing and they have more of a reason to use that data?

[B]

Aaron, thank you so much for that. And you know, we talked about that before, what the maybe either double standards or differentiated treatment of these tech companies are by the government. You know, Sapna, I'm looking at the clock. We're running out of time here. But recently on the Daily you said that TikTok included a call your congressperson feature and that it actually kind of backfired and that it demonstrated how much influence the app could actually have on politics. Can you share what part of that story suggests about the government's thinking about this app?

[A]

Yeah. So that was a one time campaign that TikTok launched, you know, as the bill was getting underway, encouraging users to call lawmakers whose offices were flooded with calls, including from, you know, a fair number of minors. And for a lot of the lawmakers receiving those calls, while they do want to hear from constituents, they, they felt that it was, you know, showing that TikTok can have this political influence in a way that, that, that they felt could be used incorrectly in the wrong hands. And it's totally fair these points that callers are making around concerns with civil liberties. But I think what lawmakers would say is that this is about the Chinese government specifically and the ownership of TikTok by ByteDance and laws in that country that sanction the Chinese government to lean on private companies for data and other things in a way that US companies maybe don't operate here.

[B]

We'll have to leave it there. Sapna Maheshwari is a reporter covering TikTok and other tech news for the New York Times. Thank you so much for talking to us today.

[A]

Thanks for having me.

[B]

Absolutely. And that's today's show. Tomorrow, the new film we grown now follows two imaginative 10 year old boys living in the Cabrini Green housing complex. We'll talk to director Minhal Bay and we'll talk to you tomorrow. Have a great day.

[G]

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