The Names' Explores the Effects of Domestic Violence

Summary

All of It: Exploring the Effects of Domestic Violence through "The Names" by Florence Knapp

Episode Title: The Names' Explores the Effects of Domestic Violence
Host: Alison Stewart
Guest: Florence Knapp, Author of "The Names"
Release Date: May 28, 2025

---

Introduction to "The Names"

In this episode of All of It, host Alison Stewart delves into Florence Knapp's poignant debut novel, "The Names." The conversation centers on how a seemingly simple decision—choosing a name—can profoundly shape an individual's life and the ripple effects it can have on a family, especially within the context of domestic violence.

Alison Stewart introduces the novel:

"[The Names] is a lovely and heartbreaking examination of the ripple effects of domestic violence and of the choices that can determine our futures." [00:29]

Premise of the Novel

"The Names" follows the life of Cora, a woman enduring an abusive marriage with her husband, Gordon, a respected community doctor. The narrative explores three divergent futures based on the name Cora chooses for her newborn son. Each name—Gordon, Bear, and Julian—opens a different path for the family's destiny.

Key Plot Points:

• Gordon: The child remains in the unsafe household, perpetuating the cycle of abuse.
• Bear: The family stays together, allowing Cora and her children a semblance of normalcy.
• Julian: The family relocates to Ireland, seeking refuge and a fresh start.

Alison Stewart outlines the story:

"The story goes in three different versions of the future, depending on what name Cora chooses for her son." [00:29]

The Significance of Names

Florence Knapp emphasizes the profound impact names can have on one's identity and life trajectory.

Florence Knapp explains:

"We're given [names] at birth and then carry it through life with us everywhere we go. Often people will hear it before they even meet us and bring a whole load of their own associations to that. Maybe that will affect whether we're called in for a certain job interview or whether we cross paths with a potential partner." [02:04]

Choosing the Three Names: Gordon, Bear, and Julian

Knapp meticulously selected each name to embody distinct narratives and character developments.

1. Gordon:
   A traditional name, symbolizing continuity and legacy.

   "With Gordon, I wanted a name that felt like it was very traditional and could be handed down through the generations." [02:45]

   Illustrative Scene:
   Gordon, as a teenager, interacts with a bottle of Gordon's gin, highlighting his struggle with personal identity and familial expectations.

2. Bear:
   Represents expansiveness and versatility, allowing the child to forge his own path.

   "With Bear, I wanted a name that felt really, really expansive... it feels like it's got this huge amount of space for the child to become who they could be in it." [03:48]

   Character Insight:
   Bear is perceived as both strong and cuddly, embodying the duality of resilience and warmth.

3. Julian:
   Symbolizes creativity and aspiration, aligning with his destiny as a jeweler.

   "Julian means Sky Father, which fits perfectly because... it will elevate him above all those, you know, this line of awful earth fathers." [03:49]

   Narrative Effect:
   Julian’s name sets him on a path of artistry and emotional growth, contrasting with the oppressive environment of Gordon.

Themes of Domestic Violence and Its Ripple Effects

The novel intricately portrays how domestic abuse affects not just the immediate victims but also permeates the lives of their children.

Florence Knapp discusses her research and inspiration:

"Several months before I started writing 'The Names,' I was part of a group where someone spoke from a women's refuge. The harrowing stories I heard deeply affected me and fueled my exploration into why abusers behave as they do and the long-term impacts on children." [09:04]

Notable Insight:

"Walking alongside Cora and her children, I was able to more fully understand those things." [09:35]

Creative Freedom as a Theme

Knapp weaves the theme of creativity as a form of freedom and self-expression, contrasting it with the suppression experienced by characters under abusive control.

Florence Knapp elaborates:

"When someone's being creative, it's having the freedom to make mistakes and to express themselves. And in the storylines where characters have more freedom, those creative pursuits really open up." [06:37]

Examples in the Novel:

• Characters engage in quilting, jewelry making, gardening, and dancing, symbolizing their reclaiming of agency and individuality.

Structural Choices: Seven-Year Cycles

The narrative unfolds in seven-year increments, a choice inspired by the belief in the body's seven-year renewal cycles.

Florence Knapp explains:

"Revisiting each character every seven years allowed me to focus on formative moments that define their paths." [13:26]

Impact of Structure:

• Provides clarity in tracking the diverging storylines.
• Highlights pivotal events that shape each version of Bear/Julian/Gordon.

Challenges in Writing: Delving into Gordon's Storyline

Among the three narratives, writing Gordon’s path was the most challenging due to the deep emotional and psychological exploration required.

Florence Knapp shares:

"Writing Gordon was hardest because it involved portraying the manipulation and abuse within the household. It required delving into very difficult emotional places." [15:25]

Incorporating a Glossary: Meaning Behind the Names

At the novel's conclusion, a glossary details the traditional meanings of the names, grounding the narrative in their symbolic significance.

Florence Knapp on the glossary:

"The glossary shares traditional meanings, but more importantly, it reflects the personal associations and interactions between names and fate." [16:11]

Personal Reflections on Names

Knapp reflects on her own experiences with her name, relating it to the novel's themes.

Florence Knapp muses:

"When I moved to Australia at six, 'Florence' was uncommon, making social interactions challenging. This personal experience informed my understanding of how names can influence one's social and personal journey." [16:57]

Conclusion

Florence Knapp's "The Names" offers a profound exploration of how a single decision can alter the course of lives affected by domestic violence. Through meticulously chosen names and structured storytelling, Knapp delves into themes of identity, freedom, and the enduring impact of familial relationships. This episode of All of It not only highlights the novel's emotional depth but also underscores the intricate connections between culture, choice, and destiny.

---

Notable Quotes:

• "We're given [names] at birth and then carry it through life with us everywhere we go." — Florence Knapp [02:04]
• "The three names felt almost like they were there fairly early on for me. And they very much set the narratives and how they unfolded." — Florence Knapp [05:08]
• "When someone's being creative, it's having the freedom to make mistakes and to express themselves." — Florence Knapp [06:37]
• "Writing Gordon was hardest because it involved portraying the manipulation and abuse within the household." — Florence Knapp [15:25]

---

This comprehensive summary encapsulates the essence of Florence Knapp's "The Names" as discussed on All of It, providing listeners and readers alike with deep insights into the novel's exploration of domestic violence, identity, and the profound impact of naming.

Transcript

[Progressive Insurance]

All of it is supported by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the Name youe Price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates Price and coverage match Limited by state law not available in all states.

[Alison Stewart]

This is all of it on wnyc. I'm Alex. Alison Stewart. What's in a name? And how can your name shape your life? Do you think if you'd been called something else, your whole life might have been different? That's one of the questions at the center of Florence Knapp's debut novel. It's titled the Names. The story begins with Cora, a woman trapped in a terrifying, abusive marriage with Gordon. Gordon is a beloved and respected doctor in the community. Behind closed doors, he controls every aspect of Cora's life and punishes her with physical violence. Cora and her daughter Maya have survived the last nine years together, but now there's a new addition to the family, a baby boy. Gordon insists that Cora should name the baby after himself. Maya wants to name the baby her brother, Bear, and Cora really wants to name the child Julian after this. The story goes in three different versions of the future, depending on what name Cora chooses for her son. And the book is divided that way by chapter. In one version, Bear grows up with his mom and sister. In another, Julian and Maya have to move to Ireland to live with their maternal grandmother. And in the third scenario, the baby is named Gordon and Cora stays with an abusive husband. The Names is a lovely and heartbreaking examination of the ripple effects of domestic violence and of the choices that can determine our futures. The Names is out now, and I'm joined now by its author, Florence Knapp. Nice to meet you.

[Florence Knapp]

Nice to meet you as well.

[Alison Stewart]

How did you get interested in the idea that a name can shape your future?

[Florence Knapp]

I think I'm really interested in the things that make us us, whether that's our family and our upbringing or our friends or those early formative experiences. And also our Name, because we're given it at birth and then carry it through life with us everywhere we go. And often people will hear it before they even meet with us and bring a whole load of their own associations to that. And maybe that will affect whether we're, I don't know, called in for a certain job interview or whether we cross paths with a potential partner. But I guess it also shapes our sense of self as well.

[Alison Stewart]

How did you decide on the three names, Gordon, Bear, and Julian for this Little boy.

[Florence Knapp]

So with Gordon, I wanted a name that felt like it was very traditional and could be handed down through the generations. And I think with the names, I did quite a lot of thinking through of how I could use them in different ways. And so there's a scene in the book where we meet Gordon as a 14 year old and he's getting ready to go out to a party and he's really nervous, he's not popular. And he goes to his parents liquor cupboard and sees a bottle of Gordon's gin. I don't know whether you have. Yeah, you do. And I think just feels this instant affinity with it of, you know, it's got his name on it, he feels like it's his and he takes a first sip from it and he doesn't like the taste of it, but he keeps going because it's his gin. And then with Bear, I wanted a name that felt really, really expansive and a name that feels like it's got this huge amount of space for the child to become who they could be in it.

[Interviewee]

His sister likes it because it's cuddly.

[Florence Knapp]

Yeah, it's an interesting name, isn't it? Because it does have that. It can be both. It can be brave and strong, but it can also be really cuddly and kind. And it feels like it's one of those names that does say you can be absolutely anything. And I really wanted to play with how a character would exist within that. And then with Julian, I wanted to. I knew I wanted to. I do a lot of kind of craft stuff myself and I knew I wanted to write about that in some form. And I wanted to this boy to grow up to be a jeweller. And so I was thinking the name Julian worked, and when I looked it up, that means Sky Father. Which fitted perfectly for my story because in that narrative it's where the mother hasn't called the child Gordon. She's able to say to the father, well, I didn't call him Gordon, but I called him, called him a name that is at least a tribute to you. It means father. But in her head she's also thinking sky Father. It will elevate him above all those kind of, you know, this line of awful earth fathers. And so the three names felt almost like they were there fairly early on for me. And they very much. The names did set the narratives and how they unfolded.

[Interviewee]

Yeah, I was gonna ask about the narratives between Gordon, Bear and Julian. Did you think of them as separate charact or was there something fundamentally the same at the core of this boy.

[Florence Knapp]

I think there's something fundamentally the same at the core that makes him who he is. But it is very much a. I guess I wanted to look at how people are affected by their upbringing. And certainly in Gordon's storyline, we see him being really manipulated by his father and almost weaponized by him so that he can be used against the mother. And it's not until he's an adult that he can really. Where he has more autonomy, where he's faced with certain moments where he maybe gets to choose the person he actually wants to be and to think, well, who am I when I strip away all those things that were part of my childhood that have made me who I am, and am I happy with the person that I've become as a result of that? And I guess gets to decide.

[Interviewee]

My guest is Florence Knapp. We are talking about her debut novel, the Names. It's about how one mother's decision about what to name her son changes the course of his family's life forever. You mentioned briefly that you were into sewing and crafting. You wrote quite a bit. You did quite a bit in that, in your life, in your career. What made you want to write a novel?

[Florence Knapp]

Soth the novel writing has actually always been there in the background. I've been writing fiction since 1999, since I was 21 and just left university. But I guess more publicly, I'd been making quilts and dressmaking and doing. Doing those kinds of things. But what was really lovely for me was being able to bring some of those things into this, into this story. And I didn't want to write about quilt making directly because it feels to me, fiction feels easier when it's very separate from me. But I did. I just love writing about people working with their hands. And I guess also to me, I think one of the things I realized as I was writing this novel is that when someone's being creative, it's having the freedom to make mistakes and to express themselves. And it is freedom in a way. And so in terms of the different narratives, what we see in. In the narrative where the domineering father is still very much a part of that narrative is that there's a complete absence of creativity and there's an absence of people gardening, people reading books, all those things around craft. That also, I think, in some ways, are a form of kind of creative or kind of imaginative thought and things like that. Whereas in the storylines where those characters have more freedom, those things really open up and there's, you know, people making huge Tessellating artworks from old kind of battered yardsticks. And there's jewellers and there's people gardening and there's people dancing. And it felt to me, I think often when you're writing a novel, I think you only realize partly what it's about afterwards. And I think afterwards, one of the things that I was thinking about is how much in my own life creativity represents freedom and having the space to make mistakes. And obviously in growing up in that environment, there's no space to make mistakes. You have to get everything absolutely right. Yeah.

[Alison Stewart]

Let's talk about Gordon. He's clearly abusive. We learn early on, it escalates. During their brief courtship, she comes to realize there's something that's not right with this man. What kind of research did you do into intimate violence?

[Florence Knapp]

So I'd never intended to write a book about domestic abuse. But what happened was several months before I started writing the Names, I was part of a group of women where someone came to speak to us from a women's refuge. And when she told me about her work, I was really. It was incredibly harrowing, the things she told us. And I was really, really affected by it. And my way of processing the world tends to be through writing or through reading. And so I think I had a lot of basic questions that were whirring around in my mind in the months after she'd spoken to us of like, well, why would someone be like that and why wouldn't someone leave and what would the effect on the children be of growing up in that environment? And I think I knew all the answers to those on a kind of fact based level, but emotionally didn't quite understand it. And I guess walking alongside Cora and her children, I was able to more fully understand those things. There's a bit in the book where I was writing one day and I was writing a scene where it's the storyline where Cora stays with Gordon and she is socially isolated and very much cut off from the world. And I was in my living room writing and I have this plant where all the leaves stand very upright and kind of closed at night. And then during the day they all kind of fall outwards. And I was sitting there and I could hear the leaves brushing against the living room wall as they were falling outwards. And suddenly had this realization that in Cora's world where she's so isolated, that to her that would feel like life and it would almost be something that I don't, I guess, made. Made her feel alive as well, because there was another living thing in the room. And I think it's those moments of where you're trying to put yourself in someone else's shoes and think, how would this feel? That really, really. Well, I felt like I learned a lot by trying to imagine how Cora might feel and that by the end of the novel, certainly within the context of this one fictional family, I felt like I understood the challenges that were facing them better.

[Alison Stewart]

It's interesting. When you're writing, do you keep your sort of senses aware for signals or for signs that speak to you to shift your writing, to think about your writing in a different way? That was so interesting about the plan.

[Florence Knapp]

Yeah, I think that it's because I very much write fiction, so don't tend to bring my own life into it, but I do tend to bring in those environmental things that have gone on around me. And so there was. There's another bit in the story where Cora realizes that she needs help and she's walking, she's gone to the one friend's house that she kind of once had a relationship with and no longer does, and that person's no longer living there. And she's thinking, well, where could I go? And the day before, I'd taken my dog to the vet and the vet had been telling me about judging a dog show at his daughter's school. And he was saying how hard it was because he kind of, you know, it kind of really hadn't wanted to upset anyone by not, not, not choosing the teacher's dog. But also, you know, there was so many things going on in his mind. And as I was listening, I was just thinking, oh, my goodness, you are. He just seemed so kind. And so when I was sitting there the next day thinking, well, where would Cora go in this situation? And I was thinking, okay, yeah, no, that's, that's who I would go to in that situation is this vet who was. And so it's the, the vet in the story isn't him at all. But it's. Yeah, I guess that I am. That you have those feelers up thinking about what could come into your story.

[Interviewee]

We're talking to Florence Knapp. Her debut novel is called the names in the novel. It jumps forward seven years at a time. Why did that seem like the right amount of time?

[Florence Knapp]

So I don't know whether there's any scientific kind of basis for this, but I think there's a commonly held belief that the body renews in seven year cycles. So that felt like a nice starting point for it. But in terms of revisiting the Boys every seven years. I felt like if I didn't have any structure at all, like when you're asking the reader to follow three different narratives, it would feel like kind of handing them in a kind of amorphous blob and just saying, try and keep track of all this. Whereas if I had a. I felt if I had a really clear structure of we're going to be visiting each character in turn every seven years, then a reader would hopefully be able to follow along with me more with that. And also I think what that did was it allowed me to really focus in on those moments that had been really, really formative for each version of the boys. There's one scene in the book where we see Gordon as a 7 year old and he's in his classroom and his teacher said she wants them to write name labels for their trays. And he's sitting there and he's got all his new coloured felt tips for the term. And he writes Luke on his name label. And I think at some subconscious level he was maybe thinking, well, who could I be if I wasn't Gordon, if I wasn't named after my father? And gradually his classmates notice that he hasn't written his real name on and the teacher comes over and tells him to leave the room and he's really cross with him. And when he comes back in, his name's written there in kind of capital letters and black sharpie. And it feels almost like it's indelible. It's saying, this is Gordon, this is who you are. It's inescapable. And I think for him that was probably a really formative moment in his life. So in revisiting them every seven years, I was really able to focus in on those moments.

[Interviewee]

Who was hardest to write? Gordon Bear or Julian?

[Florence Knapp]

Oh, that's such a good question. I think easiest felt to write was probably Julian because his narrative was set in Ireland and it always felt like I was going somewhere fresh and new in my mind. Probably hardest in terms of feeling like I really had to go to difficult places with my characters was Gordon where they've. Where Cora has stayed in an abusive marriage and you see the child being horrendously manipulated by the father. Yeah, I think. I think that was hardest.

[Interviewee]

And finally at the end of your book, there's a glossary describing all the different names mean. Why did you put that in?

[Florence Knapp]

Well, I think that I'm so. One of the things that's. I'm probably more interested in the associations that we bring to names than the traditional meanings behind them. So the glossary has the traditional meanings, but what it shares and what I think has more importance in the book is what I or other people might bring as associations to those names because I think those are the moments where our names are interacting with fate and chance in ways that we might not even be aware of. And it just, it also just felt like fun.

[Interviewee]

What do you think of your own name? Did it make you think about that as you're writing the book?

[Florence Knapp]

Yeah, definitely. And I, I and also I guess in how much I can never know quite how much my own names affected my life, but in the ways that I do know about that, I when I was six, my family moved across the world to live in Australia. And I guess when you're standing in front of a classroom and at that time, Florence was a really, really uncommon name in the 19 and so I guess it was having a simpler name would have been easier.

[Interviewee]

The name of the book is called the Names. It is by Florence Knapp. A fine name, I might say.

[Florence Knapp]

Thank you very much, Florence.

[Interviewee]

Thanks for being with us.

[Florence Knapp]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Interviewee]

Coming up on the show tomorrow, actor Jonathan Groff. He stars in the new Broadway musical Just in Time about the life of Bobby Darin. He joins us in studio to discuss alongside his co star star Gracie Lawrence. I'm Alison Stewart. I appreciate you listening and I appreciate you. I will meet you back here tomorrow at RXBar.

[RXBar]

They believe in simple nutrition without the BS. That's why they said no to artificial ingredients and yes to deliver intentional transparent nutrition. Try their original 12 gram protein bar, the Nut Butter and Oat bar or minis. RXBar, the proud sponsor of no BS. Use code RXBar on RXBar.com for 25% off, subject to full terms and conditions and to change. Valid until September 30, 2025 and may not be combined with other offers. See rxbar.com for full details and limitations.

[Progressive Insurance]

NYC now delivers breaking news, top headlines and in depth coverage from WNYC and Gothamist every morning, midday and evening. By sponsoring our programming, you'll reach a community of passionate listeners in an uncluttered audio experience. Visit sponsorship.wnyc.org to learn more.