The New Erotic Thriller 'Babygirl'

Summary

Podcast Summary: All Of It with Alison Stewart – Episode: The New Erotic Thriller 'Babygirl'

Host: Alison Stewart
Guest: Helena Raine, Writer and Director of Baby Girl
Release Date: December 16, 2024
Broadcast: Weekdays from 12:00 - 2:00 PM on WNYC

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1. Introduction to Baby Girl

[00:53] Alison Stewart:
Alison Stewart introduces the episode by discussing the film Baby Girl. She describes the central characters:

• Rami (Nicole Kidman): A 50-something woman, CEO of a robotics company, seemingly content in her marriage but with unfulfilled desires.
• Samuel (Harris Dickinson): A brash, 20-something intern who enters Rami's life, recognizing her hidden desire for submission.

Stewart highlights the raw and illicit dynamics between Rami and Samuel, setting the stage for an in-depth conversation about the film's themes and character development.

2. Nicole Kidman’s Advocacy for Female Directors

[02:01] Alison Stewart:
Stewart commends Nicole Kidman for her support of female directors, referencing an advocate named Louie Wang. She inquires how Kidman has been instrumental in uplifting women in Hollywood.

[02:14] Helena Raine:
Helena Raine attributes Kidman's success to her practical and proactive approach. She emphasizes Kidman's commitment to finding and supporting female directors globally, leading to opportunities for women to create their own stories.

Notable Quote:
"She sets out to do something. She actually, by sort of attaching herself to these female directors, of course, also gets the job done." — Helena Raine [02:14]

3. Helena Raine’s Transition from Acting to Directing

[02:54] Alison Stewart:
Stewart inquires about Raine’s background in acting and how it influences her directing.

[02:55] Helena Raine:
Raine discusses her history as a stage and film actress, highlighting her roles in classic plays by Shakespeare, Ibsen, and Chekhov. She reflects on the recurring theme of female characters facing tragedy or demise, which inspired her to create stories where women strive for liberation and survival.

Notable Quote:
"I need to create my own stories where characters are trying to liberate themselves, but actually stay alive." — Helena Raine [02:55]

4. Directing Philosophy and Collaboration

[03:36] Alison Stewart:
She asks how Raine’s acting experience aids her directing.

[03:45] Helena Raine:
Raine emphasizes the importance of vulnerability and collaboration, drawing from her theater background. She rejects hierarchical directing styles, opting instead for an egalitarian approach that fosters creativity and mutual respect among actors.

Notable Quote:
"I want to be an equal. I want to collaborate. I come from the theater, where that is a very normal thing." — Helena Raine [03:45]

5. Development of Baby Girl

[04:43] Alison Stewart:
Stewart probes into the genesis of Baby Girl, particularly how Raine conceptualized the project.

[04:50] Helena Raine:
Raine explains that after collaborating with Kidman on rewriting projects, she felt empowered to create her own story. The title Baby Girl intrigued Kidman, leading to her enthusiastic support and commitment to the project.

Notable Quote:
"I just wanted to make it very personal and express my own struggles with aging and appearance." — Helena Raine [12:43]

6. Character Dynamics: Romy and Samuel

[05:53] Helena Raine:
Raine details Romy, portrayed by Kidman, as a seemingly perfect CEO whose facade begins to crack upon meeting Samuel. She discusses Romy's internal struggle between maintaining her polished exterior and confronting her suppressed desires.

[07:09] Helena Raine:
Exploring Samuel’s character, Raine describes him as confident and unafraid to challenge Romy's masks. This interaction catalyzes Romy's journey toward authenticity, despite the risks to her career and personal life.

Notable Quote:
"Romy makes a lot of mistakes. Romy is also a dinosaur. She needs to be educated." — Helena Raine [21:49]

7. Generational Themes and Sexuality

[07:18] Helena Raine:
Raine delves into the generational clash between Romy and Samuel. She characterizes Samuel as representative of Gen Z's entrepreneurial spirit, creativity, and modern approach to sexuality and hierarchy, contrasting with Romy's Gen X values.

Notable Quote:
"For me, sexuality and sensuality is a story. It's all in my mind." — Helena Raine [18:43]

8. Symbolism in Costumes and Soundtrack

[14:12] Helena Raine:
Raine explains how costume design reflects character development. Romy's initial structured attire evolves into more relaxed clothing as she becomes her authentic self. Samuel’s oversized, cheap suit symbolizes his struggle with masculinity and identity.

[16:07] Helena Raine:
She discusses the soundtrack, created by Cristobal, which incorporates primal sounds and animalistic elements to underscore the film's themes of power and vulnerability. The inclusion of "Father Figure" serves as an anthem for the characters' inner conflicts.

Notable Quote:
"The music is always communicating. This is a game. It's primal, it's sexual, it's animalistic." — Helena Raine [16:07]

9. Portrayal of Sexuality and Intimacy

[17:59] Alison Stewart:
Stewart addresses the explicit sexual content in Baby Girl, questioning the collaboration with Nicole Kidman and the use of an intimacy coach.

[18:16] Helena Raine:
Raine clarifies that while the film is perceived as erotic, it's fundamentally a comedy exploring female sexuality and existential crises. She emphasizes the use of choreography and intimacy coordinators to create authentic and safe scenes.

Notable Quote:
"Sexuality and sensuality is a story. It's all in my mind." — Helena Raine [18:43]

10. Exploration of Female Rivalry and Patriarchy

[21:34] Alison Stewart:
Stewart shifts focus to the character Esme, Romy's assistant, and her role in the film.

[21:40] Helena Raine:
Raine describes Esme as a highly ambitious Gen Z woman who challenges Romy's outdated perspectives. Their dynamic illustrates female rivalry as a byproduct of patriarchal structures, highlighting the need for a more authentic, inclusive female gaze in storytelling.

Notable Quote:
"Female rivalry is a consequence of patriarchy. I'm trying to show these two women going into a fight where you're like, why?" — Helena Raine [24:37]

11. Final Thoughts and Closing Remarks

[24:37] Helena Raine:
Raine reflects on the importance of moving beyond the traditional male gaze to embrace diverse perspectives, ensuring that stories represent the complexity of all characters.

[24:49] Alison Stewart:
Stewart thanks Raine for her insights and promotes the film's release at the Museum of Modern Art and nationwide on Christmas Day.

[24:54] Helena Raine:
Raine expresses gratitude for the conversation, wishing there was more time to discuss the film in depth.

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Conclusion

In this episode of All Of It, Alison Stewart engages in a comprehensive dialogue with Helena Raine about the intricate layers of her new film Baby Girl. Raine articulates her motivations to portray authentic female experiences, the clash between generational values, and the nuanced depiction of sexuality and power dynamics. Through detailed character development, symbolic costume and soundtrack choices, and a commitment to collaborative directing, Raine crafts a narrative that challenges traditional norms and invites viewers to explore deeper themes of identity and liberation.

Key Takeaways:

• Baby Girl is both an erotic thriller and a generational comedy that delves into themes of authenticity, power, and female empowerment.
• Helena Raine leverages her background in acting to foster a collaborative and egalitarian directing environment.
• The film uses symbolism in costumes and music to reflect character development and thematic elements.
• Sexuality in Baby Girl serves as a metaphor for the protagonist's existential crisis and quest for self-liberation.
• The portrayal of female rivalry is examined as a consequence of patriarchal influences, advocating for a broader, more inclusive female gaze in cinema.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• "She sets out to do something. She actually, by sort of attaching herself to these female directors, of course, also gets the job done." — Helena Raine [02:14]
• "I need to create my own stories where characters are trying to liberate themselves, but actually stay alive." — Helena Raine [02:55]
• "I want to be an equal. I want to collaborate. I come from the theater, where that is a very normal thing." — Helena Raine [03:45]
• "Sexuality and sensuality is a story. It's all in my mind." — Helena Raine [18:43]
• "Female rivalry is a consequence of patriarchy. I'm trying to show these two women going into a fight where you're like, why?" — Helena Raine [24:37]

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This summary encapsulates the essence of the All Of It episode, providing listeners and interested parties with a comprehensive understanding of the discussions surrounding Helena Raine's Baby Girl without requiring them to listen to the full podcast.

Transcript

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[Alison Stewart]

This is all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. The title of the movie, Baby Girl. It sets up the dynamic. The girl in this case is a 50 something woman, the CEO of a robotics company. And the person who calls her that is her lover. A 20 something brash intern. Their interaction is sexy and raw and illicit and full of dominance. Who's Exactly? It's a good question. The movie stars Nicole Kidman as Rami, who seems seemingly satisfied sex life with her husband. But we soon learn that something is missing. That something might have gone unfulfilled if Rami didn't meet Samuel, a new intern. He's played by Harris Dickinson. Samuel seems to recognize something about Romy's secret desire for, well, submission. He is bold with his advances and instead of rejecting Samuel or firing him, Romy decides to go along with it, even though she seems a little afraid of him. The intense affair with an intern puts her career and possibly her family at risk. Baby Girl was written and directed by Helena Raine. It's playing tomorrow night at the Museum of Modern Art. It's in theaters nationwide on Christmas Day. Helena, it is really nice to meet you.

[Helena Raine]

So lovely to meet you. Thank you for having me.

[Alison Stewart]

You know, Nicole Kidman has really, really done duty in working with female directors. Louie Wang came in and talked about how she advocated for her. How do you think she's been able to lift up other women in Hollywood?

[Helena Raine]

I think I agree with you. First of all, she's doing an amazing job. She actually puts her money where her mouth is, as they say in America. I think she just looks at it in a very practical way. She actually wants to do something. And how she came to me was I made very small Dutch movie called Instinct, which was my first movie. And she just finds these movies, these very in all the corners of the world. And she contacted me right after that. And so she's just in that sense someone who does what she says. She sets out to do. And she actually, by sort of attaching herself to these female directors, of course, also gets the job done, because then we actually get the space and the opportunity to create our own stories.

[Alison Stewart]

You've worked as an actor?

[Helena Raine]

Yes, yes, I used to be an actress. I was mainly a stage actress, but also did movies. I worked with Ivo Van Hol all my life. And then I slowly, in the wings, started to think, because all these characters that I was playing, I played all the sort of iconic roles in the theater. Shakespeare, Ibsen, Chekhov, all of those. But most of these women that I played, I started with Ophelia in Hamlet, trying to liberate themselves, but most of them ended up dead. So I always, in the wings, was thinking, like, what is happening? Why are all of my characters either killing themselves, look at Hedda Gabler, the Human voice, or they get killed. Marie Stewart. And so I thought, I need to create my own stories who are trying to liberate themselves, but actually stay alive. That was just such an interesting concept.

[Alison Stewart]

To me as a former actor. Well, as an actor, how is that helpful to you in directing this movie?

[Helena Raine]

I think it's helpful in the sense that when you have been an actor yourself, you know how incredibly vulnerable and also sometimes embarrassing acting can be. Even if you have to do a comedy scene, there's all these people standing around you in North Face jacket eating pizza while you're on the floor doing weird things and putting yourself out there. And so to me, I don't want to be director who's sitting there on a high chair, you know, with a microphone, telling other people what to do and sort of enjoying that also, a little bit. No, I want to be equal. I want to collaborate. I come from the theater, where that is a very normal thing, you know, where everybody collaborates. But also, I grew up in an atmosphere of radical hippies in commune. So that kind of idea of to really work together instead of, you know, having a classic hierarchy is something that I think makes actors, especially if they're very experienced and very accomplished, they want to be a collaborator of they come with all their talent and all of what they have seen and done in their lives. And so that is how I approach it.

[Alison Stewart]

I'm thinking about Nicole Kidman. What does she say to you when she first read your script?

[Helena Raine]

So after Instinct, when she contacted me, I worked for her a little bit because, of course, she has this production company that is very impressive. And I worked for her a little bit on a story that she had, and she wanted me to rewrite that and that gave me a lot of confidence. So that is already giving a woman an opportunity, right? Because I was writing in English. But then after I did Bodies, Bodies, Bodies, my first American movie for A24, they asked me, why don't you write something yourself? And then I called Nicole and I was like, hey, listen, I'm going to just isolate myself completely. I'm going to really take on this task of creating my own story.

[Alison Stewart]

So you called her as a friend.

[Helena Raine]

And said, yeah, because we stayed in touch always. And I was working for her at that time as well. So I wanted to just let her know that that was what I was planning to do. And she was incredibly supportive, but she always stayed in touch. And then she kept asking, so what is the title? And then at a certain moment, I told her, well, the title is Baby Girl. And immediately she was very intrigued. And then she read a very early version of it, and she said, I want to do that.

[Alison Stewart]

My guest is Helena Raine.

[Helena Raine]

She's a writer and director of Baby Girl.

[Alison Stewart]

All right, we meet Romy.

[Helena Raine]

She seems sort of happy in her marriage, great guy, making lunch for her kids, wearing an apron, stuffing little notes in her kids lunchbox.

[Alison Stewart]

She's the CEO of a company, a.

[Helena Raine]

Robotics company, which made me laugh because she seems sort of robotic, honestly.

Exactly.

[Alison Stewart]

Why did you want it to be a robotics company?

[Helena Raine]

Why did you want her to run an automation company?

So what I'm intrigued by when we're talking about human nature and creating anything is that we, on one hand, seem to be so civilized, you know, and we think we're smart and we know everything, especially since we have all this smartphone in our hands. We have access to everything and anything. But on the other hand, we also have this side of us that is still very animalistic. And so to me, everything we're doing with this movie is in those two lanes. So what is the beast in this movie and what is the civilized in this movie? We do that with the camera, where we have handheld scenes and then we have these big overhead shots. But also in her profession, her answer to chaos, the chaos that she grew up in. She says, I was named by a guru. I grew up in communes and cults. I'm a product of the sexual revolution in that sense. Her answer to that is the white picket fence. Everything needs to be structured and organized. And I'm the CEO of an automation company and of a robotics company. And I just thought that was a great metaphor of someone who's suppressing something and needs to liberate herself.

So Samuel, he is very forward with her. Right away. Yes, right away. Why does he feel so comfortable being so bold?

Because my movie, of course, everybody's talking about the sexuality of my movie, which I only embrace because I hope people will find it steamy and hot. But how I see my movie, mainly it's a comedy, a generation comedy. It's very much about two different generations. And of course, since Bodies, Bodies, Bodies, I've become obsessed with Gen Z or whatever that is, because that's just a name. But younger people and their attitude towards sexuality, their attitude towards hierarchy, their attitude towards their bodies, their. All of that, the words they have, the language they use. And so for me, this young man, of course, we're introducing him almost in a fairy tale style with the dog, you know, where he saves her life, saves her life, he's able to just kind of calm down this beast. But when he sort of penetrates the mask of the hierarchy, of the company and just says, like, yeah, I have a question. When she says, does anybody have any questions? Meaning, like, just get out of my room. That attitude. I was inspired by a younger generation who often, you know, I'm Gen X and I come from a time where, you know, I kind of had to polish the shoes of the older actress. They are not. No longer into that. And again, I'm generalizing for the sake of my story and for the sake of fun, but that's how I wanted to introduce him. As someone who's like, well, you might be the boss, but I want you to be my mentor. You're going to be my mentor, right?

It's so funny because on our show, I'm going to tell the tales. It's like there's, there's three of us are Gen X. Hello, you can see us.

Hi. Hi.

And then we've got the Gen Z and it's like these two different world. We get along because Gen Zers are really like, they're really good at starting things, of thinking of things.

They're entrepreneurish, they're entrepreneurish, they're creative. For me, they're a total inspiration my whole movie. I hope that people see that in I. I am so inspired by them because again, their relationship with their bodies is so different. I have learned so much of Rachel Sennett, of Amanda Stember, of all the actresses of Chase, who really had to teach me what modern feminism is. I really, I'm an old dinosaur. So I wanted to, you know, really create about, but also wanted to have fun with it. Right? Because these two, Esme as well Played by the genius Sophie wilde and Esther McGregor, her oldest daughter. All of them, they don't really, like, we come from a time where it's like you have to work hard and you have to earn it. And they are like, earn it. I'm going to make my own movie tomorrow. I'm going to maybe make a documentary. They're very much at ease with just being who they are and having all these ideas about what they want to achieve. And that is part of the movie story.

[Alison Stewart]

Why doesn't Rami just fire him?

[Helena Raine]

Well, because, of course, immediately, first of all, with the dog. But second of all, when he shows his confidence, she's intrigued because we're meeting someone, as you said, who thinks she has to be perfect. She's performed. The whole movie is about performance, right? It starts with a fake org.

[Alison Stewart]

Oh, yeah, for sure.

[Helena Raine]

Everything is about what is real and what is not real. And so we see this woman that thinks she has to be the perfect mother, the perfect CEO, the perfect lover, the perfect wife, the perfect daughter. And I think a lot of women. And again, I'm generalizing for the sake of our discussion today, but a lot of women feel that need to nourish, to please, and they completely forget to think, what do I want? And then when this young man shows up and kind of doesn't care about any of her masks, she's perfected all these different masks, and she's showing him, you know, the mask of the CEO and he's like, take your mask off. And that's exactly what she's looking for. And instead of sitting her husband down and saying, hey, Antonio Banderas, I need to talk to you. I have these hidden fantasies. Can you please help me with that? She doesn't do that. It's a cautionary tale of what happens when you suppress your inner beast. And your beast will come out in ways that you don't want it to come out. And it is a risk and it will hurt others. And that's what's happening. With Harris Dickinson arriving on the stage.

[Alison Stewart]

My guest is Helena Dickinson.

[Helena Raine]

She.

[Alison Stewart]

Oh, no. Sorry, Helena.

[Helena Raine]

I wish. I wish.

[Alison Stewart]

Writer and director of Baby Girl.

[Helena Raine]

We'll have more after a quick break.

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[Alison Stewart]

You are listening to all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. My guest is writer and director Helena Raine. We're talking about her new film Baby Girl, which stars Nicole Kidman. It's coming out on the 25th. So it's really interesting watching Nicole, who's a very beautiful woman, but the character is not at all happy with her appearance. No, she gets Botox. She goes in and out of the hot and cold chambers. Why does she not feel she's beautiful?

[Helena Raine]

So I wrote this completely for myself in the sense that I didn't write it for any of the actors. So I was just wanting to make it very personal and wanting to express my own wrestles or struggles, however you want to call it, fights, inner fights with aging and my own appearance. Having been an actress, I always heard I don't look peachy enough. I should soften my face. My face is not symmetrical. You can't light your face. And so I thought it was very important that the pressure that is now on all women, since we all have smartphones, suddenly every young woman is sort of in the public space and photographing and filming herself. So I feel that that is an incredibly important subject, but not only with the face and the body, but also she takes the EMDR therapy, which is a form of therapy where she almost is saying, okay, I have no blemishes. You know, I worked on myself. I am perfect. There's no wounds in my soul. I am this perfect woman. And again, I think a lot of women are still plagued by the idea of needing to be perfect men as well, by the way, in this day and age. But we all think that accomplish some sort of control over life, whereas in the end we're all going to die and we have to embrace aging and we have to embrace that that is going to happen and then enjoy the moment, you know, because there is a time limit. And so that is what we See this character go through hopefully, and we hopefully connect to that, where she can finally liberate herself from the idea of having to be perfect and just becoming her authentic self.

[Alison Stewart]

What did you want to achieve through the costumes?

[Helena Raine]

So the costume, again, my whole movie is about performing, performance, performing. The husband is a theater director. The CEO Romy Nicole Kidman is getting media training where she's told, like, you know, vulnerability is a positive. Don't think of that as a weakness. So constantly we see people performing. Sexuality is seen almost as a performative act where they are discovering their BDSM dynamic. And Harris Dickinson is telling her, get on your knees. Oh, I'm so sorry. I shouldn't have said that. Like, they're constantly shifting between performing something and becoming reality. So that is what we want to. And through it. And the costumes are, like, diving into that, where in the beginning of the movie, everything is thought out that she's wearing. She's wearing an apron at home. She's like a Mary Poppins character. And then she has these beautiful. Like, she's still feminine, but she's the leader. But slowly, you know, she ends up in jeans and a sweater, and she starts to become herself, and her hair is unraveling a little bit more. And with Harris, for instance, we really tried to dress him in a way where he's wearing a costume that is almost too big to express this sense of like and cheap. Like, he's wearing this cheap suit. He's an intern, but he's trying to ask, who am I as a man? He's setting his first steps into society, being this intern, and he's discovering himself and discovering masculinity. And who am I allowed to be in a time after? Me too. And in a time of consent, and what can I be? And so for him, the costume doesn't fit. So I constantly wanted to play with all the ideas of. Of what is gender, you know, what is expected of us, and to show this woman that thinks she needs to be everything that is expected instead of everything she really, truly is.

There's a great soundtrack that goes on with this. He does a dance to a father figure at a very significant point in the film.

For the Gen X people in this room, we're all like, yeah.

Tell us about putting together the soundtrack.

Yes. So there's two components. There's the score that is created by Cristobal, who also did the music for White Lotus. The score is really saying to the audience, even when the stakes are incredibly high and everybody seems to blackmail everybody. The music is always communicating. This is a game. It's primal, it's sexual, it's animalistic. So he uses a lot of breathing from the real actors. He uses sounds of animals. He claims that there are real wolf sounds in his score and then there's the needle drops, how they call it. And so I always knew Father Figure. Even before I started writing, I knew Father Figure is my anthem. And it has to be in there because I thought it is incredible song. And it is all about power and wanting to be, you know, vulnerable. Whether you are a guy or a girl, everybody has this inner child. And everybody likes to be vulnerable at times. And I think that music is so beautifully talking about that. But of. In the scene that it is in, we see Harris Dickinson dancing half naked for Nicole, sitting in a chair that is an exact mirror of a scene in Nine and a Half Weeks where Kim Bessinger is taking her hat off, Jo Cocker and Mickey Rourke is sitting in this chair. And I just wanna have fun with that. I wanted to be playful with that. And I thought father Figure, you know, talking about being a daddy, who's the daddy? Is Harris Dickinson the daddy or is Nicole Kidman the daddy? So that is why I thought that was just. And it's such. Just a beautiful song. It's romantic, it's sensual. And then we have an in excess song in the movie that is also kind of Nicole's world. And then all the other songs are all Gen Z world. So the music during the rave, for instance, that is very much Harris Dickinson's world. And all the songs we play at Esther McGregor's birthday party, that's all Gen Z music. Or I hope that at least that it is, because I am a grandmother. So. But I hope that it sounds like young and fun to them, you know, so we really wanted to communicate that through the music.

[Alison Stewart]

Talk a little bit about sex in the film. Nicole Kim really has to. She has to go there. She's got to masturbate. There's some nudity, and there's a lot of sex. What were your initial conversations with Nicole like? And did you work with an intimacy coach?

[Helena Raine]

Yeah, definitely. And I think my movie. I totally understand that my movie is a little shocking and it is edgy and it is spicy. But if you really look at it, there's not a lot of actual sex acts. There's only two very small snippets of actual sex. For me, the most arousing scene is when he orders her a glass of milk in a bar and she drinks the full Glass of milk. And then he says, good girl. And they're not even touching. So I really want to.

[Alison Stewart]

Sensuality in the film. A lot of sensuality.

[Helena Raine]

Sensuality. And there's. And there are moments that I. That are taboo. You know, when she's crawling over the floor and standing in a corner and he's giving her commands. So I totally understand that people are a little bit like, whoa. And enjoying that, you know, and having. Having a fun time with it. But for me, sexuality and sensuality is a story. It's all in my mind. Two bodies just like, you know, touching each other randomly. I don't find that interesting at all. Like, that doesn't do anything for me. And I think, again, for a lot of us who are not straight white men, sexuality is just something we need to use our imagination. We want suggestion. We want to have a whole story, a whole story of foreplay before anything happens, happens. So that is very important that we stress that that is what the kind of sexuality that is in my movie. And then, yes, I think preparation is key. I hated to come on a set when I was an actress where it was like, well, just do something, you know? And then you could feel the sort of enjoyment of people who were in charge because they felt like you had to search for something. And I don't like that. So I come fully prepared. There's a whole choreography. Everything is blocked out. And then within that, that very structured environment, the actors can be totally free and really react to each other and be dangerous in the moment. And we need intimacy coordinators just as bad as we need stunt coordinators. If you do a fight, you don't want to really hurt each other. If you do a sex scene, you really want to keep it safe and you want to keep it very practical. And if you use intimacy coordinators, trust me, you will get better, more layered, more complex and more authentic sex. Sex scenes.

It's been interesting. You said twice that people have really honed in on the sex part of your movie. Why do you think that is?

Well, I think female sexuality is still shocking. Yeah, it honestly is, even to ourselves. I don't even dare to talk to my girlfriends about how embarrassed I was that it takes me quite some time to have an orgasm at the hands of a man. And then when I was doing research for my movie, which is actually based on a true story, one of my friends was in the 25 marriage and never had an orgasm with her man, you know, And I. When I heard that, I was like, what? And I really reacted like that. And then later I thought, like, but I have my issues, too. And then I start to talk about more women and do all these research, and then it's just proven. It's just a fact that it takes a woman, on average, 18 minutes to have an orgasm on the head with the hands of a man, if she orgasms at all. And these are things that are shocking to talk about and to watch. And it's just something that not everybody is ready for, I think. But my movie, again, I use sexuality as a metaphor to talk about a woman in an existential crisis, just like Hedda Gabler. And I say at the beginning of my movie, hedda Gabler is not about desire. It's about suicide. My movie is not about sex. My movie is about somebody who wants to destroy everything to be born again. And that's why it's called Baby Girl.

I'm talking with Helena Raine. We're talking about her film Baby Girl. I want to talk about Esme real quick.

Yes, right, definitely.

So she's Romy's assistant. She wants a promotion that keeps getting put off in our conversations. What did you want to achieve with Esme's character?

So, first of all, I wanted to create Romy in the way where I was standing in the wings, and I was watching all these men play Richard iii, watching all these men play Macbeth. So I wanted to create a main character, a lead character that was flying, a lead character that was dark, that was weak, that was lying to herself, lying to her husband, manipulative, also amazing and warm, and all of the things that we normally see women be in movies, but also all these weaker things. And so her bond with Esme is very controversial. Here is a young woman who's incredibly ambitious, who has all these ideas about feminism that I actually think are modern and fresh, and she's not even listening. If you look at the bar, the milk scene where Harris orders milk, something very important happens in the beginning of that, where Esme comes to the table and she has all these ideas and they dismiss her. You know, they're like, you're young. What are you talking about? Yeah, well, she's adorable. She's enthusiastic, like, stuff like that. So she constantly is being, like, sent to the door and not listened to. And then in the end, we can't spoil anything. But when she has some information, you know, and she wants to confront her, she is also blackmailing the main character. Esme is blackmailing the main character, but she's blackmailing her to give more women opportunity within the company. And I just thought that would be so fun. So, of course, we are saying, look, Romy makes a lot of mistakes. Romy is also a dinosaur. And I'm talking about myself now because, you know, I put myself in that character who is not modern enough, who's not woke enough. You know, she needs to. She needs to be educated. She needs to learn so much. And then we have this young woman who is a very different character and who's very modern in her way of thinking, but also has her flaws, you know, and also has her vulnerabilities, I think what makes this movie different from the 90s thrillers, of course we're playing with the same juicy, cliche, seductive world. We want to make it just as steamy as the men did back in the 90s. But in the end, we want to create four lead characters that are all human, that are all dark and light, that are all flawed and amazing. And so all of them are struggling with our themes of sexuality, of power, of control, of jealousy and all of these things. And I think there's a big thing that we sometimes overlook. Female rivalry is a patriarchal. Is a consequence of patriarchy. And in my own lightweight, I'm trying to show that in my movie, I'm trying to show these two women, they're kind of like going into a fight where you're like, why? Why? Why? To be picked by the man? Is that what gives you value? So that I'm addressing the male gaze, and I'm not saying I hate the male gaze. I'm saying, this is me. I'm a product of patriarchy. And with my movie, I'm trying to slowly move towards a more female gaze, whatever that may be, a more authentic gaze, and that includes everybody, you know what I mean? Instead of just singling out the prototype, which is the white straight male.

My guest has been Helena Raine. She's the writer and director of Baby Girl. That will be in theaters on December 25th, and I believe it's playing at MOMA tomorrow night. It was really great to meet you.

I could have talked to you for another hour, but unfortunately, we don't have time. But thank you so much.

Coming up, we'll kick off this month's full bio conversation with the author of the name of this band and is R.E.M. that's next, right after the news.